Hey! I'm nice people, and so am I !

Were you talking to me Bryster or Cat or Lin? lol 8)

I'm not paranoid... and me neither!

We agree.

PJF, aye, I've had the same problem with TA and poser meshes... But I want you to know that your resized image is beautiful, and an AWESOME example of True Ambience at work in a non-reflective-sphere situation! I'm impressed, the wall's lighting is phenomenal, as is the texture. Good stuff.

I like this pumeco guy. Very nice dude. Sounds very sincere. Look forward to seeing the prorender thing.

OK...pumeco...WHEN CAN we try this out... I for one just want to learn the technique...I am psoitive 90 percent of the Brycers will want to learn too...So more power to ya...Dont Fret the little stuff...Remember this folks... Anything that will help even 1 Brycer is weell worth the EFFORT...Unless you die from Boredom waiting for the Endless Render...

Endless render ... LOL

Guess I'm not Bryce-geeky enough to understand why exactly I would need to render without lights... I get the color bounce bit, though. But I'm not really excited about even longer render times. :-( That said, your images look good, Len. And I wish you luck. Gonna go back to sleep now and let the geekier people have their thread back. ;-P -Heidi P.S. Cris was just bookmarking the thread so she'd get e-bots when someone replied. Our lovely antique formus here don't have a "watch this thread for responses" option. (Don't get me started on that.)

B.fish: Rendering without lights can be a lot faster.

Oh, OK! Faster is good! :-) Thanks for the info. -Heidi

okay... just found the thread... but.. (and this may show just how ignorant I may be.. but.. both of the first test images that pumeco posted were rendered on a Celeron... My understanding is that a Pentium would do this faster... The image that took just over an hour was excellent, and most of my renders take at least that long. So.. to me.. nothing really different, other than the quality of the image being GREATLY improved... (If I am mistaken about the Celeron vs Pentium.. forgive the idiot that is me....) I am honestly very excited.. and hate the fact that I can't just jump into August long enough to download this now... :) Please keep up the work you're doing... (and more images please... :) )

You are correct about the Celeron vs. Pentium affair, LeeEvans. Better still would be an Athlon or Duron, which actually take into account the floating point operations and render and perform much more efficiently at lower clock speeds. Still, back to the original POINT of this thread : Pro-Render. There's really nothing pro about it so far, Pumeco. We've seen three or four screenshots, none of which showed any new or exciting effects in Bryce that we weren't already doing without it. Also, as was stated previously, you don't even have a gallery of art to look at. How many times have you used this product you're creating? Why can't we see what you have done with it? Not to make you feel bad, but it seems ridiculous to advertise something that doesn't exist. What were you hoping to gain? Popularity? Notoriety? Even so, I think that unless you actually produce SOMETHING, you're merely alienating a group of artists who aren't interested in popularity. So far, you've given us nothing but text and a few quickie images that many of us could create in minutes, and I don't think I'm going to hold my breath in wonder and wait for you to figure out what exactly it is you're talking about.

Any news, Pumeco?

I was truly looking forward to this...

Im not a newbie really, been playing with Bryce 4 since 2000, and just bought the release from Daz for Bryce 5, but I havent ever read the manual.. and only limited tutorials.

That said, I was very impressedby the renders Pumeco has posted... I realize that several others have posted images they have created trying to duplicate his "idea" ... but they themselves have said that there's something he's doing that they can't quite figure out.

And from my POV, these are posts by people who have been "into the works" of Bryce for a while to have a better understanding of rendering and lighting etc, than I do.. and I feel most "newbies."

Im still hoping that this is something that everyone will have the opportunity to use, and experiment with. However, being that there hasn't been a post from pumeco in over two weeks.. Im afraid that maybe it was dropped?

I hope not... but...

Aye, not to contradict you at all LeeEvans, but if you do a search for, "Radiosity", "HDRI", or "True Ambience" in the Bryce forums here, you will find hundreds of images ranging from Pumeco's style to Ornlu's style, meaning newbie work all the way to our in-house ridiculous Brycologist. There's really nothing mysterious going on TO figure out... He hasn't re-written the Bryce renderer, merely found some features he thought nobody knew about. That said, there's nothing wrong with his ideas, OR his enthusiasm! I enjoy those things myself, and I hope we're not discouraging. But at the same time, calling something "Profesional" means that it's a PROFESSION, meaning you make money off of it. I can't see how Pumeco's product will help us do anything we couldn't already do without it... Perhaps "Bryce GT"...?

Another thought is that Bryce6 is just over the horizon and we may not have to fake things in future to get the effects we want. 8)

Hi everyone.

I've just read the recent posts here, and this is really just a quick "STILL HERE" kind of post.

I'm sorry I have'nt posted as much as I would like to. Unfortunately, I have a lot of other business to attend to, other than PR (PRO-RENDER). In fact, I came VERY close to abandoning PR just recently, as it's no longer in my best interest to produce and support it. However, thanks to the opportunity offered by PRX (PRO-RENDER-XTREME), I've decided to continue and complete both.

Just before I go, I feel the air needs to be cleared regarding the name "PRO-RENDER". It has been suggested in one or two threads, that perhaps it's misleading or unsuitable. First of all, I need to point out that the word PROFESSIONAL is not for the sole purpose of use, to describe a product with which you can make money. The word PROFESSIONAL, is also used to describe a standard of quality. The name "PRO-RENDER", was created to describe a product which can give PRO standard RENDERS, and because PRO-RENDER can do this, the name is entirely suitable, and not in any way misleading. If there are members, who disagree with this, then I'm sorry, but that name is going to stay. And if there are members who believe it's name suggests a "PAY PACKET", then there's an almost infinite list of other products that also use the abbreviation "PRO" in their name, like "Paint-Shop-Pro" for example.

Final pre-release renders, and a FINALISED specification chart will be uploaded soon. Please bear with me, I'm working on it ;-)

Speak to you all soon,

Len.

"In fact, I came VERY close to abandoning PR just recently, as it's no longer in my best interest to produce and support it." ------------- How lame is that... So, the next time if you have a project, please STFU until you decided to continue it. J.

Easy derjimi. I did say "CLOSE" to abandoning, I did'nt say I had. When I came close to abandoning PR, I started preparing an announcement for the forums. However, because I've decided to continue PR and PRX, there was no point in posting it was there? I personally, don't see your problem here. If I had'nt mentioned it in my previous post, you would never have known any different. I don't see how honesty can be lame. Len.

I'm just dumbfounded at the level of hostility that's been shown to pumeco in this thread. A lot of Bryce users (like myself) aren't very excellent or experienced in the use of various settings, and if a plugin became available, or even a list of settings, that would produce specific results, I'd be thrilled. In The Real World I undertake very big projects, and part of the process of psyching myself up is to talk to people about it. I've heard it referred to as 'pumping up the tyre', so I'm not alone in needing that. Not everyone works by chipping away secretly until the moment comes to show a finished project. I would never make/achieve anything unless I was able to make the project 'become real' in my own head first, it has to seem possible to achieve, and I do that by telling people what I'm doing. Why don't we get behind pumeco and push, rather than shooting him down every time he sticks his head above the parapet?

I have to apologise. Sorry Pumeco, it was a fault to use such harsh words. I had a bad day and overreacted. Sorry again. J.

Personally I want to know details, step by step how to, etc. Then I will judge if this was really worth all the emotions displayed here.

Aldaron,
Believe me, the emotions displayed here, have me totally amazed. I personally can't understand how anyone can have any dislike of such a product, especially now it's free! I just wish that some people would settle down a little, and see PR for what it is, and that's a product to make advanced rendering easy, and there's nothing wrong with that.

catlin mc(post 99), derjimi(post 123),
Apology accepted, no problem, it's water under the bridge.

Thanks to others for the supportive comments.

I'll be posting again soon with my pre-release posts.

Regards,

Len.

Do people really have a dislike of the product? It's free, people either like it and use it, or don't like it and don't. But personally I don't think that people are showing a dislike of Pro-Render as such, but more a suspicion of anything that says it can improve bryce renders. The hostility you have witnessed is not aimed at you as a person and probably not even at pro-render (how can people be hostile towards something they have no information on?), but more the promise of something that may go the way of other promises and not be all that was hoped. One thing is certain. If you give up now and do decide to drop pro-render then nothing you have experienced in the forum so far will prepare you for the posts you will get afterwards. But on the other hand, if pro-render does what people hope and what you claim, then you are going to be the toast of the forum. August deadline? That's not far away. I'm sure we can wait a few more weeks before unleashing the dogs. ;-) When you next post some examples, would it be possible to post some native bryce renders and pro-render renders side by side? At the very least it's got people thinking more about lighting. Me especially. Which can be no bad thing.

Hi drawbridgep.

Thanks for that, It's always interesting to know of opinions. There's really only one MAJOR thing that bothers me about PR's release, and it's this:

When I read through almost any PR thread, I can't help but get the impression that people STILL think that PR is a program or a plugin. The reality of course, is that this is NOT the case, and I've never said otherwise. This bothers me a lot, because it means that no matter how good PR is, and no matter how many people it helps out, a lot of people will come down on it like a ton of bricks. And the sad fact of the matter is that in most cases, this will be because of what it is, and without regard for what it actually does.

Yeh drawbridgep, I know, thanks for the warning. I'm ready for the "experience" I KNOW I'm gonna get, no matter how PR is recieved. I only hope that the amount of positive response, outweighs the negative. I can't please everyone, but then, who can?

My pre-release post will include:

Explanation of Reflection problem.

Explanation of Smoothing problem.

Explanation of Boolean problem.

Standard Bryce to PRO-RENDER comparisons.

PRO-RENDER to PRO-RENDER-XTREME comparisons.

PRO-RENDER and PRO-RENDER-XTREME specifications.

Len.

I've just spent an hour reading this thread (longest one on rosity?) No, you've never said that it's a program or a plugin, but people did presume it and I don't think it was made totally clear in the first post (which was the important one) that it's not. I still wasn't sure until I read your last post. I may not have the highest IQ here, but I'm no ninny either. So, (and I know I'll be corrected if I'm wrong) - Pro-Render is a combination of tutorials and specific material settings? What's the difference between PR and PR Extreme then? ;-)

Aye, I admit that perhaps I've been hostile-sounding, but I assure you Pumeco if you could see the grin on my face you'd know that I'm just goading you in a friendly way! Also, somebody has to be the skeptic, and with a ridiculous screen name like mine I fear that role should at least be partly on my shoulders. BUT, I am not to be taken too seriously under any circumstances...!

And I can't wait to see what kinds of new effects we can produce with your techniques... Never discard something out of hand, never judge but merely analyze.

"It is possible to know so much about a topic that you become completely ignorant." - Frank Herbert

Message edited on: 07/27/2004 18:41

What's the difference between PR and PR Extreme then? ;-) I believe I read (either here or at DAZ) that he isn't going to say anything about PRX until he releases it. Well, other than it exists. All will supposedly become clear when it comes out. Just for the record, these are the kinds of actions that make people afraid to bend over. :-/ -Heidi

I think drawbridgep hit the nail on the proverbial head with his comment's in post 126. We have seen many promises and let downs over time and I believe that is the whole reason for any aggression shown here. Also Len you've got to understand that for myself in particular, I'm 43 going on 4, you get the picture, yes. 8P Catlin

Hey, enough of the typo's! I said PRX (PRO-RENDER-XTREME) not PRE (PRO-RENDER-EXTREME)! Yeh I know, get some sleep right? Going...Going...zzzZZZzzz

Also Len you've got to understand that for myself in particular, I'm 43 going on 4, you get the picture, yes. 8P hehe, get it :P but I'm sure you could still go for a 20 y/o if you color your hair blonde ;)

There's an myth with Bryce 5, regarding reflections on transparent materials that have no reflective property set. This is something that members see as a problem caused by the use of TA (True Ambience). However, the reality is that it's not actually a problem, and it's presence is not caused by TA. The cause is actually refraction, as my test strip above demonstrates. OK, two rows of images, the top row is PRO-RENDER using True Ambience, and the bottom row is standard Bryce 5 (No TA). Also, please note that EVERY image uses 0% reflection and 100% transparency. First, take a look at 3 and 6, a reflection is clearly present (Refraction = 153 (Glass)). Now look at 2 and 5, and you'll notice the reflection is starting to disappear (Refraction = 101 (Mild Refraction)). Finally look at 1 and 3, and you'll notice a complete absence of reflection (Refraction = 100 (Air/No Refraction)). So there you have it, some might find this rather strange, but in reality it makes perfect sense. Just imagine a real world situation, if you had a perfect sphere, totally transparent, no colouring to define it, no reflection of it's surroundings, and no refraction to define it's density, how on earth would you expect to see it? The fact is that you won't, as demonstrated by image 1. I hope this has clarified the myth, as well as give some food for thought regarding real-world-to-CG physics. ;-) Len.

This image is to show that the light leak problem has been sorted. The cube primitive in image 1 is a Bryce 5 PARAMETRIC, and obviously has problems. The cube primitive in image 2 is a GEOMETRIC (imported geometry) replacement, and solves the light leak problem. PRO-RENDER will come with any replacement primitives needed. After sorting the light leak problem, I kind of assumed that using replacement primitives would also solve the boolean problem. Unfortunately though, booleans still don't work properly. This won't be a problem to anyone who imports objects though. Len.

Well, as many of us know, imported geometry under true ambience has smoothing problems. In fact, smoothing the object in Bryce 5 will have no effect on it's smoothness under TA whatsoever. However, there are ways to work around this problem, and this image demonstrates the PR and PRX methods of doing so.

Take a look a both, they're both smooth, and they're both rendered with NO LIGHTS! The image on the left was rendered using the PR method, and the image on the right was rendered using the PRX method and SKIN-BASE (PRX package (see specifications chart)).

SKIN-BASE along with another product called HAIR-BASE (not shown), are special advanced materials designed for specific emulation of different skin/hair types. Technically, these materials are a method in their own right, and are designed to integrate perfectly into the PRX method. They're pretty complicated, and require a manual of their own. SKIN-BASE and HAIR-BASE are still under development. Please know that image 2 demonstrates SKIN-BASE in an INCOMPLETE state, and is included here for comparison purposes only.

SKIN-BASE and HAIR-BASE were originally intended to be distributed as seperate products. However, the importance of skin and hair in Bryce 5, has taken on an all new level since the DAZ/Bryce 5 ownership. SKIN-BASE and HAIR-BASE will now be available as part of the PRX package (see specifications chart).

Len.

Message edited on: 08/02/2004 15:09

As requested, here are my earlier renders shown as with/without PRO-RENDER comparisons. Len.

OK, here's another comparison, and this time it's dedicated to everyone who's trying to crack PRO-RENDER. It's a scene with only ONE light (the sun). The wall material is a preset that came with Bryce 5, but which has been modified to PRO-RENDER spec. Please note inparticular, the marble pattern directly above the screen (ignore where the pattern is lost completely in the reflection), look just to the right of this, and ask yourself why the pattern itself is more detailed in the PRO-RENDER version, even though, the pattern was NOT changed between renders! If you really DO enjoy the challenge, here's the biggest clue: -IT'S ALL IN THE BALANCE- Have fun :-)) Len.

Same image, only this time with NO LIGHTS. Len.

Len, re: post 134 - I hate you re: post 136 - I love you

A light distribution comparison for PR (image 1) and PRX (image 2). Len.

PR/PRX specifications chart:

God damn!

.

Is the hair thing like Sasquatch for Bryce, or is that expecting too much?

Great It look good. Since we are on tge supject of "upgrade" Is it possible to create an "lightningman/(person) view just like cammara / director?? Maybee Iam on the wrong channel here.Sorry 4 that. Cheers robert

this is getting increasingly amazing really fast! love the skin base effect!

I agree, hope to see more on the skin base and hair base, looks remarkable! Heck, all the above is looking real nice! TMG

its august now where can i download my free copy? lol those xtreme skin pictures look cool only the nipples are a bit too pointy maybe that happens after 40 :P THis whole thread is amusing to read and should be added in some biggest moments of the web museum.

lol those xtreme skin pictures look cool only the nipples are a bit too pointy maybe that happens after 40 :P hehe, I hadn't even noticed, but you're right! hugs the naked chick "ouch! that stings!" :P lol

Oh behave, Ray. :^)