Hi. Recently I've been trying to find ways to improve my Z-tooning technique, but haven't had much luck besides using vector lines in postwork to make clean outlines. Today I loaded DAZ Studio in order to make a new Z-toon to experiment on, and I just noticed that it doesn't seem to work at all in this program. The characters do get flattened, but the joints break and fold (maybe something to do with IK?) and the 2D look is ruined. I seem to remember seeing cartoony images by Veritas that he said were done in DAZ Studio, or perhaps Stewer or Ockham might be able to help find an alternative method using scripting. If anyone has had better luck, could you post here and explain what you did? Thanks very much! SnowS (mods, if possible, please don't move this to the D|S Forum yet. It's dead over there, and I need to hear from Poser regulars who have helped me develop this technique, originally designed for Poser. Thanks!) :)

Attached Link: http://market.renderosity.com/softgood.ez?ViewSoftgood=25584

I am not at all sure, but I think Veritas used this? It was created by Stewer.

Hi Snow, Glad I can advise the great R&D wizard on Z-Tooning! My simple technique was to set it up in Pro-Pack and then import the Pz3 file. That will import the flattened scene with the lights (I use three lights in my Z-Toon setup, because of better, subtle color controls and shadow effects). The PROBLEM with this was that Ockham's Z-Toon control ball was no longer hidden and so came in visable. So I either positioned the camera to hid it or posted it out. Haven't tried it in the latest release of DS however, so that issue may be gone now. BTW, before some of my other threads were deleted over there, I had very good success importing Lightwave files with all correctly placed texture maps. I forget now exactly how, but I think I used a combo of 3DExplorer and Truespace 5 (which is a great file translation util, BTW) and then importing those into Pro-Pack and then THAT into Daz Studio. (The intermediate steps help correct what a DIRECT Pro-Pack LWO import will not do in Pro-Pack's initial LWO import.)

Hi Genny- No, while I loved the Toon effect of Stewer's software, I didn't use it in combo with Z-Tooning. However, I might have tried it- but have forgotten now- will have to go back and look at all my older DS images. Haven't used DS for months now, but it seems time to get back into it as they have fixed a lot of issues and the renderer doesn't expire util December- so some time to play around with it again.

LOL! I wasn't sure..but I guess you (or someone did?) must have mentioned it, as I do remember going to have a look at it when D/S first came out.(:

Thanks for the information so far. I tried saving a Z-tooned Anime Doll (15% Zscale) with IK off in Poser 4 and loading her in D|S, and although she loads in flat, she still behaves like a 3D figure in a 3D environment (almost like a stick figure or paper doll). Importing the entire scene from Poser into D|S might work, but it kind of defeats the purpose of even having DAZ Studio. ; Maybe DAZ will make an optional cartoon render plugin and we can work from there. For now though, it doesn't seem like we can use Z-tooning in D|S. If you have any other ideas though, please let me know. :) SnowS

Attached Link: http://www.DavidGould.com

Well, like Genny said- the other alternative is Stewers Toon software. It's really excellent for creating a TOON effect, but it's not the same thing as Z-Toon. Stewer's effect is more like a CEL Shade effect, or an "inker" effect. It looks more like what you would see in some commercial "Cel Shaders" used in MAX or Lightwave. Stewer's effect is very much affected by the lighting used, and once you played with that aspect, the effect is greatly magnified depending upon the lighting angles. I think that in my experiments that Stewer's effect in combo with Z-Toon seemed to make little difference. But what Z-Toon does is very much what some commercial Cel Shaders do, actually- like "Illustrate!" for MAX. The main difference with Illustrate! is that it is specifically designed to incorporate both the flat optical effect and the use of applied CEL Mats to create a very Cel Shade TOON effect- this includes CEL Shadow effects as well. When I started to use Illustrate several years ago I long suspected that it used an "optical" trick to simulate a flat surface. But I never did actually know how until I saw SnowSultan's Z-Toon effect. Illustrate and other Cel Shader and Inkers create a NEW Camera view that applies all the effects in one shot with out all kinds of other manipulation or post processing (and Illustrate can be tweaked to deliver lots of different TOON and COMIC looks.) DAZ Studio can certainly support various TOON, CARTOON and COMIC Inkers, Shaders, etc. It's just that no one has released any yet- which probably won't happen until DAZ Studio goes into official release as Version 1. Stewer's shader just gives you a taste of what is to come!

Thanks for those links Veritas, I've seen some cartoon shaders for Lightwave but not those particular MAX ones. Of course, I hope DAZ Studio will have a real toon shader so we won't have to use my quasi-toon technique. I only worked to come up with it so that Poser users would have something in the meantime. :) SnowS

Sorry about your difficulties - but why bother with a dead before it's born item (D/S). Looking around various sites D/S images are virtually non existent. While DAZ may claim impressive download figures the software is not doing the job. Maybe why DAZ got Bryce!

I see your point, but D|S is nearing completion, and I believe that it's basically going to be necessary to use DAZ Studio in order to fully take advantage of future DAZ products. People keep bugging them to support Poser 5, but I honestly don't know why they bother asking. It is early of course to switch entirely to using DAZ Studio, but I think in time, many of us will have to, like it or not.

SnowS

SnowSultan: Thanks for the reply - it is always difficult to raise a critism about an item of software without it sounding as though 'this software is better than that that one' type of thing. DAZ have to be applauded for making 3D available to a wider audience. This can only lead to long term benefits for the 3D industry as a whole. I have never appreciated their (DAZ) lack of support for P5 - it's especially annoying to have to move bump maps around in P5! DAZ seem to be targeting the 'incoming into 3D' people to the detriment of people gaining more experience. Such people may typically move on to 'better' software and find the DAZ stuff pretty useless in those programs without lots of messing about. It's here that people leave DAZ behind to find companies that do cater for their needs. Our paths are unlikey to cross again so I'm going to use this opportinity to thank you for those excellent templates you produce. Best Wishes

I'm sorry to disagree, Becco_UK (especially since you just gave me a great freebee), but I think you have it backwards. Over the years, DAZ has shown itself to be innovative and foreward-thinking, while CL has stubornly remained in the past. Hell, they can't even fix their dialog box problems, let alone upgrade the core. Why should DAZ go out of their way to support 1998 software? It amazes me that they even bother with pz3 support in DS. (There is much more to Poser support than bump maps.) They're only doing it to keep Poser users happy...and those same users b*tch about DS not being like Poser. Sheesh, it's insane! Frankly, I'm tired of waiting for CL to do something. I wish DAZ would chuck Poser support altogether and concentrate on a decent, new posing program. If it works with DAZ content there shouldn't be a problem, since most Poser users (myself included) seem to use DAZ content anyway.

No need to apologise for having a different opinion. I really do like to hear everyones opinion, even when they don't match mine. I can't really comment on how bad, or otherwise D/S is because I have not or never will install it. I formed my opinion from what I have seen around the D/S galleries at various sites. Frankly, there is nothing to see. If D/S helps to get more people actively interested in 3D then that's a good thing, which is the point I was attempting to make in my earlier post. I just feel that the 'new people' will quickly move on to new pastures though! ie: Bryce!

I dunno. The big thing about Daz Studio, is that its free, as opposed to buying 2 or 3 year old CL product. (Don't get me wrong, I like P5, but there are still issues some people have with it, that need to be addressed. Honestly, unless they really pull a cat out of the bag, I'll update to Daz studio by the time P6 comes out. It doesn't sound like they are updating things that need to be updated, so why buy a program, when you can freely download another program that IS moving forward. As far as the lack of Daz Studio posts.. to be honest, I haven't downloaded or installed it yet.. until the last release. Many people are getting great results with it (I just saw a fantasic reflection test image posted over in alt.binaries.poser), and it's rendered seems to be superior to even firefly. (Check out the renders over at RNDA in the P5 tips n tricks forum.. it looks like daz studio renders detailed textures much clearer then even firefly does. I already know of two people who downloaded DS just to use poser content and fiddle with it, before decideing on P4/P5.. and I'm sure there are many more we don't hear from. Exciting times, though my freinds.. things are on the move again!

"I'll update to Daz studio by the time P6 comes out." D|S is no where close to catching up to P5, it is a very buggy, extremely limited program. I'm thinking that by the time D|S catches up to where Poser 5 is today, Poser 6 will have been out for probably a year and Poser 7(which will most likely integrate with Shade) development will be well under way. I think D|S will be Daz's biggest blunder and will end up being as popular in comparison to Poser as DinaV is to use in comparison to Vicky.

I'll agree with Farside on this one. P5 is one of the most underated programs around. Lots of people often forget it has an excellent cloth room, material room on par with some 'high end' programs. Hang on theres more - The dynamic hair room, and of course the face room. DAZ are likely to scrap a full blown D/S now they have the outdated Dryice program. D/S looks set to become only a posing room linked to Bryce with a clumsy plugin. DAZ are steadily losing ground to innovative independants, like Sixus1 as an example. "things are on the move again" yes they are, in DAZ's case a downward spiral move.

No problem Becco, I'm always interested in hearing differing opinions too. :) Thanks for your input. Your welcome about the seam guides too, I'm glad they can be of help. Our paths will surely cross again though, I'm not going anywhere. ;) >>"I'm thinking that by the time D|S catches up to where Poser 5 is today, Poser 6 will have been out for probably a year and Poser 7(which will most likely integrate with Shade) development will be well under way."<< The only way I think we're ever going to see a Poser 7 is if Adobe buys it. ;) SnowS

Back on topic, regarding Tooning - I don't do much in DS these days, as for me it's too early in beta stages to be of any use to me. The toon shader I released early this year was testing the waters, but since that, DS has been a moving target - what works in today's release, won't necessarily work in tomorrow's release. I just don't think it's worth to invest time developing techniques that may be obsolete one month from now.