I'm considering getting the 3d starter bundle from Daz. I wonder if it is worhtwhile for bryce-people. I know that i'll get a great discount on Poser content, but will it be of any value for my "Brycing"?

Now that we know the upgrade price will be $99, getting a $30 coupon for buying the bundle, plus the $50 DAZ stuff coupon made it worth it for me. Having a low poly V3 and M3 was just icing on the cake.

$30 off Bryce 5.5? More figures for your scenes? Figures for $1.99 for a month plus $30 coupon for the purchase of the figures? And the importer module for Studio, which will make it easier for you to include the figures into Bryce scenes? I think it's a good value for Brycing. You're $60 down immediately, so it costs $40. And you'll have figures in the Starter Content which will make it even better, plus the savings in the PC figures you don't have.

in most cases, getting a good render off a poser figure -in my experience- has been close to impossible. you need clothing, props, skin textures, hair, etc. all these things are for sale instead of being free, which not only kills the learning process (hey, i'll just import my mike and be done with it), but it makes it prohibitive to render something truly unique. so if i was in your shoes i'd say no. when i'll buy 5.5 i'll simply ignore the whole mike and vicky thing because i know they're ultimately enticements for me to dish out more cash. just my 2,000,000 Romanian cents. E~

Drac, sweetie...there are LOADS of free textures and clothing for Victoria...just look in the Poser Freestuff section here. Also hair is free from Kozaburo who does really super quality stuff for nothing (bless him) http://www.digitalbabes2.com

yyyyeah... now who wants to play dress up with me?

"I know that i'll get a great discount on Poser content, but will it be of any value for my "Brycing"? The only Bryce related items in the bundle are the 'Turbo Importer' (DAZ Studio -> Bryce); and the $30 coupon for "upgrading" to Bryce5.5. The 'Turbo Importer' might become irrelevant after three months, depending on the final arrangement of the Bryce5.5 <-> Studio interaction. If the 'Poser' content is important to you and you're sure you're going to buy Bryce5.5, then the bundle has value to your Brycing.

PJF, that makes sense to me. Of course; none of us know what we'll get with the 5.5 upgrade. And what DAZ has in store for 6.0. What I'm saying is... will the 5.5 upgrade be worth is money. I'll have to chew on it a bit more today. :)

I'm not getting the bundle cause I already have most of what they're offering - since I'm a PC member I'll still get that discount. But yes - I think that 5.5 will be worth it. Especially since the Raytracer is being rewritten in machine lanauge which should decrease render times by half and the abiltity to transfer stuff between Bryce and D|S ram to ram (i.e. not by saving the file and reloading). Best; Dan

@ Drac: Lol, man, I really do not find it that bad, if you "dress up" your models in wings (which diches the need for DAZ add-ons for characters), or even model everything in it(including character, which you could "poserize" for yourself and community) that sound like a nice challange to do, i see my self fairly soon trying to model a character and dressing it up from the scrach!!! Will see, I'll try to model free stuff for those models so our little community is gonna have more freeby choices ! :) Cheers ! :)

Dan...if the render machine is like the one they have in D|S...count me out! That thing is so damn friggin slooooow!

Ardiva - no, it's the current B5 RT but I'm not too wild about D|S's renderer either. Best; Dan

"Especially since the Raytracer is being rewritten in machine lanauge which should decrease render times by half" Argh! I may be too old to remember properly, but wasn't that a problem with some other programs? Written in machine code and the next generation of processors left them lying in dust.

yup, the code needs to be portable for new processors. I'm still on the fence, I wouldn't mind the PC stuff cheap and the other Poser stuff as I have poser although use it only once in awhile. I would like faster rendering, but been promised that before, and well..... I've been keeping an eye on the voting thread at DAZ, why haven't more Bryce people been voting? The whole thing has turned to DAZ developing more for P5 and Bryce has been left in the dust.....

Message edited on: 09/23/2004 15:10

It's not bad. When the voting started, it was 31 to 8 percent. Now it's 29 to 15. OTOH, DAZ still makes Poser content...

"What I'm saying is... will the 5.5 upgrade be worth is money."

Ah, slightly different question. :-)

It's something I've been thinking about over the last couple of days. There's several ways to look at it, and the answer depends on combinations of factors.

First off there's the question how the 5.5 update weighs in against, say, its nearest competitor's upgrade. According to DAZ, Bryce5.5 will feature:
**>**Faster version of current renderer
**>**Advanced OpenGL work window
**>**Interaction with DAZ Studio ('Poser' figure editing on the fly)
**>**Additional import/export formats (including Poser .pz3)
**>**Some "extras" and "surprises"
Barring DAZ's various 'spend-to-save' options, this is going to cost 99 Dollars, whether you have Bryce5 or not. No upgrade for previous users.

Now look at the Vue4 to Vue5 upgrade:
**>**Global Illumination
**>**Radiosity (including in 'infinite' scenes)
**>**Real HDRI and image based lighting
**>**Procedural terrains (non-polygonal with infinite detail)
**>**Metaballs - but with all primitives
**>**3D Text editor
**>**Advanced OpenGL work window
**>**Advanced procedural texture editor
**>**Integrated post-processing and animation camera switching
**>**Quite a few other enhancements
There's some big stuff in there - and the upgrade (yes, a proper upgrade) costs 149 Dollars.

Comparing the two makes DAZ's update to Bryce look extremely poor value. Of course, Vue is a bit of pig in more ways than one; otherwise we'd have nearly all moved over ages ago. But that's not the point here. On a comparison of content plus cost plus route, the DAZ offering looks a little silly.

But then there is the not insignificant factor of what the 5.5 improvements are actually worth to individual Brycers, in isolation from other programs. After all, unless reports come flooding in that Vue5 is the first stable version of Vue to exist - ever - I'm not going to be banging on their door to get it. The Vue upgrade could include integrated Wings3D and the entire REM Infografica model library and I still wouldn't buy it if it didn't work properly.

So, assuming you're going to stick with Bryce, what are those 5.5 improvements worth to you? Is it worth $99 to have a render finish in half a day instead of a day? Is it worth $99 to have a work window reasonably represent the final render? Is it worth $99 to adjust your 'Poser' stuff within Bryce? Are these things, individually or together, worth $99 to you? It is very much a personal call, and the only 'right' answer is the one that's right for you.

Then there's the factor of how the improvements actually pan out; and if there's a downside to program stability.

Say, for instance, that the ability to adjust your 'Poser' stuff from within Bryce means that on return the textures from Studio override any Bryce changes you've made to them after import - how useful is it then? If every adjustment means going back through the figure mesh and applying your Bryce texture changes, maybe it would actually be quicker to gain the discipline of sorting the pose in the first place.

How fast will faster be? Dan Farr said almost twice as fast; Bryan Brandenburg said at least twice as fast. Bryan said that only those improvements that still provide a pixel identical render to Bryce5 would be permitted, so I guess it depends on that. And will the speed benefit remain useful if processor design changes?

On a complex scene, the primitive Bryce5 OpenGL work window can become very sticky (assuming it updates, as on my installation). How useful will advanced OpenGL rendering of 'everything' be in a complex scene?

Only when the release happens will we get to find out how good the improvements actually are. By that time, Vue5 will have been out for months and a comparison can be made with how good their improvements actually are.

And for some, like me, there's the factor of how much DAZ have got up your nose.

When I read this on their site:
"The only way to get version 5.5 at an upgrade rate is to purchase this bundle"
it really, really grates.
I can't help it but that does make a difference as to whether 5.5 is worth it to me. It means I have to suffer a financial insult I wouldn't otherwise endure because DAZ can't operate like other software companies. Everything and its mother gets caught up in their 'spend-to-save' gimmicks. Will there be important Bryce improvements only available via some 'spend-to-save' option?

And I have to consider how much the DAZ mentality will infect the Bryce "community", since that is one factor in my use of Bryce. Already, two prominent Bryce artists are going to be selling their expertise via DAZ. It's a way of sharing, I guess, but not one that's a big part of Bryce so far. Now it will become the dominant way.

So, there's quite a lot to consider in the question of whether Bryce5.5 is worth the money. It'll be an easy move for some, most I suspect; but a head-scratcher for others.
I'm still too busy being annoyed at DAZ to be able to make a rational decision on 5.5's merits alone.

"Vue4 to Vue5 upgrade" ..that's if you already own Vue. If you don't, it's $250. B5.5 = $99. Still, some cool stuff for $250, no doubt at all. B6 will enter that territory. All of this will be easier when everything is out, and Bryce users can judge for themselves. Time like this, is just chaos, lol. AS

All of this will be easier when everything is out, and Bryce users can judge for themselves. Time like this, is just chaos, lol ----------------- Absolutely, AS! Time will tell and I'm sure the Brycers here will test it to the hilt. :)

And, it's funny, digging through the forum archives here, I basically see the same exact kinds of discussions (and chaos) going on EACH time a new version of Bryce was to come out, lol. AS

Correct me here if I'm wrong, but DAZ do make promisses, and Corel almost never did, and as little time they owned it, they dis some improvements on it, I will buy it and test it for ya all, let me be the first to spend that money and be an unofficial beta tester ( or is that gonna be gamma ) of Bryce forum. @AS We should change that and UNITE in effort to lead DAZ in correct direction !!!

What is after beta? cappa? ;o) AS

That would be gamma tester.

Nope, it would be Release Candidate xxxx. :-)

I'm afraid to ask, released from where? :)

Nope - Machine code is what the CPU actually executes. A high level programming langauge also eventually compiles to machine code, just a lot larger and slower (but easier to program). Machine langauge is no more or less portable then any other programming language. I was afraid that DAZ would do what Vue did to speed up the RT - add a 4RPP AA mode (Bryce is currently 9RPP AA) and a higher AA threshold, both which greatly speed things up but at the expense of render quality. Best; Dan

Nope, they are striving to make sure that there is no pixel difference between 5.0 renders and 5.5 renders. AS

PJF wrote, "Comparing the two makes DAZ's update to Bryce look extremely poor value." I don't really think you can fairly compare the two. Considering that Eon has been working on the latest version for a couple of years by the same people who have been working on previous versions, while Bryce is being worked on by people new to the program and have this update coming out after only a few months. For myself, the 5.5 update is huge, especially since absolutely nothing has been done with Bryce for, lets see, how many years? I'm ready to pre-order now! Coldrake

As I said, there are many combinations of factors that individual Brycers will weigh in coming to a decision. Your point about the relative inputs from the two companies is accurate in itself, but doesn't really have any bearing from a customer's point of view. How the content of a package compares to what it costs, is what customers usually consider. It is on that basis that the DAZ update is poor value in comparison to the Vue upgrade. I did also mention that if a Brycer decides to stick with Bryce, he or she will then make a decision on what the 5.5 improvements are worth to them individually. To you, the improvements are obviously worth what you'll pay for them, and there is no possible dispute to the correctness of your personal choice.

AgentSmith wrote: _____________________________ "Vue4 to Vue5 upgrade" ..that's if you already own Vue. If you don't, it's $250. B5.5 = $99. _____________________________ Assuming Bryce5.5 and Vue5 both function properly, that seems about right. Bryce is way behind the game now, and the market forces it to be priced accordingly. But anyway, for the purposes of this discussion I was specifically comparing the full cost of the move from Bryce5 to Bryce5.5 with the upgrade cost of the move from Vue4 to Vue5, since full cost is the only uncomplicated choice we Brycers have. DAZ are not offering a straight money discount upgrade; they (typically) are offering some form of 'bundle of stuff' (and even then only after much wailing and gnashing of teeth from Brycers - well, some Brycers). The value of this 'upgrade' option will depend on whether a Brycer actually has any need of the bundle content. As such, it has no fixed 'dollar' value. I note that DAZ is offering a 'sidegrade' to Vue users. Doesn't it make you wonder just how much DAZ values Brycers? And that leads me to comment on a general impression that I've picked up from these discussions - that somehow we 'owe' DAZ for 'rescuing' Bryce. I don't think that's the case at all, and I think such an attitude is actually unhelpful. I certainly think we should be very happy that Bryce is now an active project again; but we shouldn't kid ourselves. This isn't a rescue mission by nice people; this is a cold-blooded business decision by nice people. Bryce has clear value to DAZ. And a major part of that value is the fact that there is still a big, active user base for Bryce. And who is that down to? Well, you could mention Eric Wenger, Kai Krause and others for making such a cool program in the first place - but they've been paid many times over for their efforts. You could mention Corel, who for all their failings did actually provide what is probably the most stable version of Bryce ever. But the real reason Bryce is still a viable program after all these years is - all of us. We, the "Bryce community", in all our various forms and arenas, are what have kept Bryce alive though the dark times. Without our carrying of the flame, Bryce would have died from neglect along with many otherwise viable programs. We are a major part of the continuing value of Bryce; a major part of its financial viability. If we owe DAZ - they owe us. So far I haven't seen any meaningful, voluntary recognition of that by DAZ.

I'm gonna regret asking this, lol...what would you have DAZ do, to make you, Peter Fulford, wholeheartedly & personally believe that they are sincerely recognizing...that they owe us for keeping Byrce alive? (I am just honestly, totally curious) ----- "I note that DAZ is offering a 'sidegrade' to Vue users. Doesn't it make you wonder just how much DAZ values Brycers?" You lost me there, what was your meaning there? AgentSmith

Nothing too exciting, AgentSmith; just for Brycers be treated straight and fair. The obvious candidate is (was) a straight and fair upgrade price to any Bryce improvements that cost money. Not possible now with Bryce5.5, of course, since DAZ has painted itself into a corner with its advertising. I don't know what to suggest now for DAZ to show sincere recognition. If they actually have any, they might think of something. You never know... ---- My meaning on the second point is that DAZ only offered, reluctantly and with petulance, any kind of an 'upgrade' deal after some Brycers objected to their initial stance. The Vue 'sidegrade' just happened. Note in the FAQ how the Vue users' sidegrade is mentioned in the section about Bryce; whereas the (pretend, after the fact) 'upgrade' for Bryce users is referred to in the 'Starter Bundle' section. The whole thing smells of DAZ taking Bryce users for granted; and of a desire to treat Bryce with their tried and tested 'Poser' marketing scheme. I hope that doesn't make you regret your question. Nobody should feel regret for genuine enquiry - not even people with SUCH F*CKING DIABOLICAL TASTE IN SHOES! ;-)

Hey, I burned those boots right after I broke up with that girlfriend. ;o)