weird, I have 2 items in my list that are no longer sold here but are in my purchase history and have download links. Thought I remembered Clint saying that's how it worked, sorry if I was wrong on that. In my case that is how it is working as I still have links for items no longer sold here. Shrug another mystery

Mature Audiences Policy -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You may not use PayPal in the purchase or sale of, or receipt of donations for, any obscene or sexually oriented goods or services. In determining what goods or services are prohibited under the Mature Audiences Policy, PayPal will consider some or all of the following factors: Whether the work depicts or describes, in a patently offensive way, sexual conduct. Representations or descriptions of intercourse, masturbation, excretory functions, or lewd exhibition of the genitals. Dominant theme of the material or website. Literary, artistic, political, or scientific value. Safety and protection of its customers, both buyers and sellers. Medical or educational usage of the product or service. Any sexually oriented goods or services involving minors, or made to appear to involve minors, will automatically be treated as violations of the Mature Audiences Policy. PayPal will not include sexual preferences or viewpoints as a factor in determining what goods or services are prohibited under the Mature Audiences Policy. ... You and PayPal agree that the damages that PayPal will sustain as a result of the behavior outlined above will be substantial, including (without limitation) fines and other related expenses from its payment processors and service providers, but may be extremely difficult and impracticable to ascertain. In the event that you engage in such activities, then PayPal may fine you $500.00 USD and/or PayPal may take legal action against you to recover losses that are in excess of the amount fined. You acknowledge and agree that $500.00 USD is presently a reasonable minimum estimate of PayPals damages, considering all currently existing circumstances, including (without limitation) the relationship of the sum to the range of harm to PayPal that reasonably could be anticipated and the anticipation that proof of actual damages may be impractical or extremely difficult. You agree that PayPal is entitled to deduct such fines directly from any existing balance in the offending account, or any other PayPal account owned by you.

In the famous words of one so many of us have admired; "Hey Everybody, Lets Party!"

Lets all go streak through the MP in protest! And then we'll all go stand nekkid in front of PayPal untill they surrender!

He ain't rude, boogie-dy, boogie-dy
He ain't lewd, boogie-dy, boogie-dy
He's just in the mood to run in the nude
Oh yes, they call him the streak
He likes to turn the other cheek
He's always making the news
Wearin' just his tennis shoes
Guess you could call him unique...

Here he comes...look...who's that with him?
Vicky, is that you, Vicky?
What do you think you're doing?
You get your clothes on!

Vicky, where you going?
Vicky, you shameless hussy
Say it isn't so Vicky
Vicky..................

Message edited on: 11/16/2004 02:54

in post #66
wasn't saying his politics, was saying his strong religous beliefs.
the stronger the beliefs the more likely the less tolerance for nudity, as it is "sinfull"

To an extent, I'll agree. I have exceptionally strong religious beliefs, however, AND I'm something of a Prude, and yet I don't have a problem with other people making nudie pics and I would likely get burned at the stake by some of the, eh, supporters of said president -- chiefly because I'm a pretty sinful person, but also most likely just for good measure. The issues with nudity are not wholly based in religious fervor, nor are they wholly based in political partisanship. They are deeply rooted secular beliefs stemming from the social dynamics that founded the US and are perpetuated to this day by the majority of the populace of said nation -- and chiefly, that populace is religious and rather hypocritical and they outnumber us by an exceptionally sizeable margin.

With all that tos jumping up and down lately, this step was to be foreseen: the new theocratic fascism is pushing forward. Where even I cannot see what I buy, I don't buy. I have no paypal account anymore: to get out, I had to change card as they just don't allow you to get out. Hell, you can buy weapons on e-bay, even weapons of mass distraction and uranium from Africa! I guess it's about time someone who livs in a real free country starts a site similar to R. and that we all buy from there., and show our art on that site and drop this hypocrisy once and for all. If this goes through, I won't spend another cent here!

Well, 'Rosity just got put to last place in my list for looking for Poser stuff. If I can buy it elsewhere, I will.

good grief, anything else thats gonna go wrong here! and theres me just doing a new texture set to sell here with some poses, looks like im gonna have to find else where to seel it, bummer!!!!! Big Brother Stikes again!

I have no paypal account, didn't change my card, just canceled it. I will continue to buy here. The only thing I worry about is updates. When these merchants leave will they continue to support their products and give their customers updates? I went to rotica to buy something for Miss Dina and my password didn't work. I was treated so rudely (and I still have the email to remind me not to go there if I am tempted), that I have not gone back, nor will I ever shop there, no matter who leaves and opens a store there. This is not about politics, it is about money, plain and simple. They are not forcing them on you, you have the choice to open a store elsewhere, and you have the choice to shop elsewhere. Just like a mall, you want regular items, go to Sears, or you can walk down a bit and visit Victoris's Secret. Until you own the site, even as a merchant you cannot really understand the workings of the site as you are not able to see the whole picture. If you like to shop here, then stay and shop, if not, then go. But until enough people are willing to leave and no more come to fill your place here, you can complain until you are blue in the face and it will do no good. I shop all over, and nudity doesn't bother me, fetish doesn't bother me, but I can respect the fact that it bothers other folks. It's been said many times, if you don't like it here you have the right to shop elsewhere, and open a store elsewhere. Wonder what the cut is for stores that don't use paypal. Do you have to share more or charge more since the store must pay more? I can't say since I don't run a store myself. At any rate, good luck to all who stay or choose to leave, hope you are successful in all that you do. Marque

Hmm, I wonder if poser weapons will be still sold? Is killing a poser character more preferable than showing their nipples? :-P

switch to Paystone .. they don't give a toot

I am not a merchant and do not spend a lot on Poser, but I might as well offer my two cents worth. 1. Can Renderosity not create a second 'Fetish and nude' site? 2. Can it be called an artists site if they force said artists and merchants to curb their tastes to those of the conservitives? 3. Though Renderosity is a multinational seller, it is an American company. I have fought for the rights we have as Americans and am OFFENDED by a decision that removes choices simply for the sake of profit. I do not mind a company trying to make money, but in doing so, to Hell with those of us that have been loyal customers for years. As I said, my two cents worth and though I know that no one really gives a damn what a nobody such as myself has to say, I hope that Renderosity realizes that they may very well lose two customers for every one that they gain.

ynsaen's looong post was very well thought out and made a lot of sense. It still burns me though to see large corporations dictating policy like this. I guess I'll always yearn for the "wild west" days of the net. In light of your dad being a lawyer I'll reasses my pro-lawyer killing policy. Maybe we can just hurt em... a lot?

Attached Link: http://www.alexslemonade.com/

>> 1. Can Renderosity not create a second 'Fetish and nude' site?

That is how the other one started ... they broke off from Renderosity and became 'otica.

1. Can it be called an artists site if they force said artists and merchants to curb their tastes to those of the conservitives?

That's a problem ... look at how difficult it has been to enforce what is here. It would be even MORE difficult to maintain a site that allowed SOME forms of erotica but not others. Where do you draw the line?

I have fought for the rights we have as Americans

A lot of us have ... and we are losing them one by one. The pendulum is stuck in the far right position, I'm afraid, and we have to roll with the punches.

You know that saying "When life deals you lemons, learn to make lemonade?" Our local news has been running a continuing story about a girl who found out she had cancer at the age of 4. Rather than let it get her down, she started a lemonade stand, with the idea that the proceeds would go for helping children cope with cancer. Sadly enough, the girl died about 3 months ago (at the age of 8) ... in the meantime, several "Alex's Lemonade Stand" stands have cropped up throughout the country, and their combined sales have just reached a million dollars. There is a lesson to be learned from that.

Message edited on: 11/16/2004 09:50

...why not ditch PayPal and use Western Union, or another respected online payment service? Just a thought. /P

Unreal. But it's probably for the best. It was ridiculous, Rosity trying to be a "family site," while selling x-rated stuff in the MP. Deleting gallery images that might possibly maybe be sexual, while allow eye-popping banner ads. At least now they aren't being hypocrits. I gave up buying stuff at Rosity a long time ago, so if some merchants move elsewhere, it will be good for me.

I prefer to use credit cards for online shopping. I don't trust PayPal, but still have an account, for those merchants who can't take credit cards directly. I try not to use it, though. And I never keep much money in it - just in case PayPal decides to freeze my account. With credit cards, there's little risk. IME, they will refund any disputed or fraudulent charges promptly. (They are required to by law...unlike PayPal.)

But I think I will get rid of my Visa card. I'll use MasterCard and Discover instead. The Visa has become an immense PITA. Whenever I make an overseas purchase with it, they refuse payment, assuming it's fraudulent. I have to call them and tell them it's legit. In one case, their customer service rep accused me of buying porn. (I was buying Vue, direct from E-on in France.) It's ridiculous; charges made in the U.S. are more likely to be fraudulent than charges made from France. If it was Russia, I could see it, but France???

Discover never gives me any hassles. I buy overseas all the time with it, and it always goes through. And it's the only card you can use to pay for an annual PC membership at DAZ.

"But I think I will get rid of my Visa card. I'll use MasterCard and Discover instead. The Visa has become an immense PITA." Debit card or Amex, baby. I don't gots and don't needs no other. (...and this comes from a guy whose brother-in-law is a fairly big-shot market analyst for VISA.) /P

But Discover gives you cash back! I get hundreds of dollars a year back from them. (I use my Discover card whenever possible: groceries, gas, monthly ISP fees, etc.)

I refuse to use a debit card. Debit cards don't have the protections that ATM cards and credit cards have. And if there's a mistake or someone swipes it, my checks could start bouncing. A credit card is just so much easier.

I do have an Amex card that gives me vouchers for groceries at Shop-Rite. But Shop-Rite pulled out of this area, and Amex isn't widely accepted, so I rarely use it.

In one case, their customer service rep accused me of buying porn. What the heck?? That's about the craziest thing I have heard yet. smh

Attached Link: PoserPros

Oh my! I go to bed, and "all is quiet on the western front", and I wake up to this! ;p Natolii, thanks for the big recommendation :) It means the world to me that you would think so highly of us. We do try hard out at PoserPros to earn the respect, comfort, and trust you give us :) Ok folks, I'd like to only say a tiny thing or two on all this :) From the very start, when we decided to open our store, we knew we had to comply with certain standards, or we would not get to use Paypal AT ALL, nor get an affordable credit card processor. We would instead be confined to MUCH more expensive methods of payment options, which would have affected our bottom line, and thus how much we can pay our merchants and staff. We trusted our members and merchants to understand and accept our policies, and comply with them as mature grownups would, since those same policies were there for their direct finanical benefit. We pride ourselves on the best rate of staff and merchant pay out there, and I'd sure like to keep it that way :) I am happy to report that our merchants have all been gems about our standards, just gems, and have never given me a moment's grief or trouble. I could not ask for more of anyone. To remind those who would like to come to PoserPros what our policies are, I will briefly go over them. ========================================================== We have ALWAYS chosen to comply with the strict standards of Paypal and our credit card merchant account, from the start, since we anticipated that one day, if one did not choose to comply, one would be facing a sudden disaster. The ways we have chosen to comply are: *No nudity in ANY thumbnail in PoserPros Store, and the ones that link to any image that has nudity MUST say "NUDITY" in a very noticable format, such as the thumbnail we have already provided to merchants for their use. *No Nudity in any main image on PoserPros Store, and those that are too risque even if not nude, will be asked to provide a new image if necessary. *Nudity in popups is allowed so long as it is of a quite basic clinical nature, not anything too titilating. *No child or young teen nudity, period. No ifs, ands, or buts. This also includes "faeries" who appear to be very young girls. *Content itself cannot be of acts of sex. Poses of people in loving situations such as embraces, kissing, hugging, etc, but NOT engaged in sex, are usually acceptable, but yet still up to our discretion, and if necessary we will ask that changes be made to the product before we accept it. *I have always said that if we ever got any characters who were anatomically correct genitalia wise, I would not point blank turn those down, as my first character, Saluda, was that way herself. However, the caveat here is that IF either Paypal or our credit card merchant account people objected to them in any way, we would definately yank the product fast. *Ways to prevent items of a sexy nature from being yanked are to NOT illustrate the point with explicit renders. At PoserPros, customers will to a certain degree, need to trust the merchant to deliver what he says he is delivering, sight unseen, based on that merchant's reputation for good work. It is a system that works well for us. *As for Richabri's or anyone's bondage props, we have some of the milder sets, and I have let them in. They are no more than cute little leather clothes and toys as it were, not directly pornographic in nature as far as I am concerned, nor indeed, dangerous to the persons using them, if those were real persons and not 3d models. *The means by which I judge how far a prop can go are these: 1) Would it be dangerous to be used in real life, and cause harm to someone? 2) Is it just a cute stage prop or outfit for fun and atmosphere? 3) Is it designed to "penetrate" the body? If so... it does not belong on PoserPros. 4) Lastly, even the props we have let in, MUST comply with our rendering standards, which means the folks "modeling" them must be clothed, etc, and also the scenes must be fairly clinical in nature in the renders. Our site, and our store, could be classified as a VERY mild R rated site. We have been this way since the day we began, and it has been going ok that way, so we will continue, unless we were forced to change by one of our store payment solutions companies, such as Paypal and our Credit Card Company. PoserPros is not for everyone, nor can everyone's products fit into our strict policies. For those who cannot fit in for any reason at all, we would like to personally recommend Diane Thure-Griffith of Renderotica. She is a fine lady, and will treat you very well. I have known Diane for years, and if I ever get one spare moment to my name, one fine day I intend to put a few things of my own in her store. I could not recommend a better woman as far as the way she runs her site. If anyone needs to speak to us on merchanting matters at PoserPros, please write to: storeadmin@poserpros This will bring your mail to all admins, where someone will help you immediately :) Do NOT write to me directly, since many days, and even weeks, I am naught but a ghost in the machine due to health issues. ======================================================= Ok, just one more comment then I will clear on out of everyone's way. Someone said this: {{{{{Love him or hate him, clint has no problem making decisions. he does need to back off a bit sometimes when he takes heat for them and listen instead of just crossing his arms and glaring with sarcasm, but generally he tries his damndest...And gets little credit. Which is wrong. Folks at Poser Pros make a call and it's all sweetness and light. Here they are evil incarnate.}}}}} Clint (and Spike also) are both good men (yeah yeah, I know, Spike's name did not yet come up, just thought I'd mention it to you that he is good too). I walk in the SAME shoes as both of them do... believe it or not ;) We all are faced with the exact same issues, and decisions that we must make on a day to day basis. In fact, with only the rarest of occassions, the choices those two men, and I make, are the exact same when presented with the same set of choices and circumstances. I respect, and admire both. I love Clint very very much, and know that he always does the best he can under trying circumstances. When judging Clint and Spike, and all "admins" here, please remember that they are not the owners of this business nor this site, and must, to a certain degree, do what they are told and what the owners wish them to do. It is not an easy job for them, anymore than the same work could be easy for my own beloved Guarie who even moreso than me, walks miles and miles in their shoes. I mean, can you imagine! Trying to keep me happy!!!!;p Or... trying to keep Tammy and Timmy Choate happy. Just thought I might bring that up. Food for thought, and all that.

For all Americans out there, this is what happens when "our wonderful Intelligent" president gets re-elected again. wow I'm surprised I was able to type that with a straight face I for one don't buy the more "adult" stuff, but it seems to me it my first amendment right to be able to if I am over 18. I just received a new Visa in the mail, I might be cancelling it. Thanks for bringing this to our attention. Beth Ps to all the conservatives out there..God you guys really have a problem!!!!

Ya know. I can actually see the point of the new rules concerning nudity, (Page 2 and 3 isn't really a hardship) and the removal of really sex geared stuff (Bondage gear.)because as others have said their policies before were kinda hippocritical.

I have a VERY large problem with the "This much of the breast must be covered" BS, though. I mean that is just puritainical to the extreme. If it is legal to walk on the beach in a bikini there is no way in HELL it shouldn't be ok to see one in a thumbnail. Only the most prudish dimwits should be offended by that.

I like shopping here and I don't want some merchants to go away so I have an idea how they might be able to get around the rule with revealing outfits.

How about someone could make a V3/steph/whatever Mannequin, and provide it for free for all to use. It would be a headless body with no anatomical features, in a solid non skin-like color that no idiot would ever confuse for a person. (Nevermind they are just polygons anyway.) You could use this for thumbnails, and first page, then show the real shots on pages 2 and 3.

whaddaya think?

Message edited on: 11/16/2004 11:16

Why do i get the feeling that this anouncement is just the thin end of what will be a very thick wedge? Hope i'm wrong but... Jack

Can we pin this on Janet Jackson and her ugly little boob? Seems to me that is when the ultra conservatism took root.

The desire for this has been there since 2000 (actually, since the impeachment hearings) ... the football game was the final impetus for action.

Attached Link: http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/articlle2312.htm

Hmmm ... lemur01, perhaps you're right ...

I can't believe there are those who blame this on Bush getting elected. Give me a break. Marque

Not so much Bush being re-elected, but as to how far the "morality" pendulum has swung since the impeachment hearings. We also seem to be losing an awful lot of freedoms in the interest of "security." That was the point.

Message edited on: 11/16/2004 12:58

If anything Bush being elected is more a symptom of larger problems in the culture. I mean a majority of the people actually fell for his BS. -_-

Even if Gore had been elected in 2000 it probably would be just as bad, since his running mate and wife were both "Moral crusader" types.

Anyway politics should stay out of this.

Message edited on: 11/16/2004 13:03

Anyway politics should stay out of this. I agree, and I did have second thoughts about posting what I did. This is all part of a bigger problem, and it is not going to be solved by controlling what people can or cannot buy with a credit card.

You can't keep politics out of this, so long as the US is drifting in the direction of Christian fundamentalists having a big say in dictating policy. I fear this is symptomatic of something much larger, and those sites that are rubbing their hands in glee at taking over much of Renderosity's business may be laughing on the other side of their faces in due course.

Phantast, Might I just point out if I may, that I do not see anyone laughing in glee? AFAIK in fact, other than Renderotica which is where material of this nature should RIGHTLY go, none of us can even accept this material that is being purged due to LONGTIME standards already in place in our stores. It is in fact, Rosity that is changing it's standards of acceptance, not anyone else at all.

Laughing in glee? Umm, well okay, I did. Sorry. I just had to. I also laughed this weekend at this really naive guy who thought that he could take his green-dot ski abilities onto a triple black-diamond mogul slope. We tried to warn 'im... but nooooooo - he just had to prove himself. I had friggin' tears coming out of my eyes for an hour after that, and my stomach cramped a little too. Does that make me a bad person? /P

Renderosity has frequently stated that it wanted to be a "family friendly" site. That is no secret. Many have argued that it truly cannot be considered "family friendly" if it carries adult-themed products in its store. At least, now, the same rules apply across the board. This does have to do with their desire to be a family friendly site. It also has to do with Paypal/Visa's restrictions, which ARE part of an even larger picture. We really can't say there is only ONE reason this is happening.

P- yes. It does. but did you take pictures? I wanna seee!

P- Absolutely, horrible. And unless you produce the picture of the poor guy with one ski gone and the other halfway up his behind, and his goggles gone cock-eyed, you will forever be tarnished in my eye. ;)

Sorry... I didn't want to break my camera, so it stayed in the Jeep :(

The corollary between him and the "Family Friendly" policy promoted in these parts by the PTB is rather striking, though...

/P

Message edited on: 11/16/2004 14:24

Well I knew I'd get in trouble... They banned me. Bye y'all

Nerd

Message edited on: 11/16/2004 14:57

No surprise. Huggs, Nerd!

"Well I knew I'd get in trouble... They banned me" Now that's obscene! Crap.

Attached Link: Products to be removed from the Market Place by insomniaworks-The3dZone-Khrys

I have posted an anouncement about products to be discontinued by the Team of insomniaworks-The3dZone-Khrys at the attached link, thank you.

Mr. Insomnia, I really, really, REALLY hope they're not going to remove anything else. I have the Catsuit with Attitude on my wishlist and plan to purchase it this holiday.

Message edited on: 11/16/2004 15:02

Edit: Man, that is a pisser that they're banning Nerd for something the management should have done themselves. They always kill the messenger don't they? Eep, this thread went and doubled while I had my back turned! (And was unconscious...)

Firstly, I'd like to say that I think Renderotica's a great site and outlet for people who produce adult oriented art, and I've been a member there myself for a long time now.

However, saying that everyone who makes products that will be banned under this new policy can just move then to R'otica and 'all is well' just isn't true. While sex sells, and no one's going to deny that, people WILL deny that they're interested in buying. A large percentage of people who purchase anything sexually oriented, or watch porn, or make naughty pictures wouldn't want to broadcast that publicly. (Anybody who didn't see the connection to the 2000 impeachment now might see that little lightbulb above their head.)

At Renderosity folks can grab their cutesy cartoon bunnies, a snazzy sports car, AND that latex bustier with nipple clamps and a dozen poses. If they had to go to a specifically adult oriented site to buy that last set, do you think they would? Some yes, but others no.

The fact of the matter is that merchants will never be able to earn the amount of revenue they got from Renderosity at any adults-only site. I know I'm not a merchant, but I've been preparing to make that leap for a long time... and I've done my homework. ;)

I don't think that customers are going to be affected by this nearly as much as the merchants are, and by making this decision it's pretty clear to me that Renderosity doesn't value their merchant base as much as they should.

• Molly

Message edited on: 11/16/2004 15:07

I'm hyperventilating, OK? I feel faint. I'm worried that artists might pull ALL of their stuff from R'sity because they feel offended that one of their items is deleted!

Attached Link: Products to be removed from the Market Place by insomniaworks-The3dZone-Khrys

Sarte: Don't misunderstand, I don't want to remove items the items posted in the list. LoL, you know that isn't the case at all. I want to keep them here. I love Renderosity and I am very loyal to them. Only the items listed in the link will be effected by the forced removal. Fashionably_Late: Yes, I may have to make a real change in what I choose to model in the future. I don't expect the sales in any adult site to really compensate for the work involved in building these items. marty

Sheesh, just bought one outfit and was going to stock up on some more items, but after Nerd got banned it would seem wiser not to reward renderosity in any kind of way for making this desicision. Seems to me getting new pay pal customers is more important than their exsisting ones as well as some of there merchants. Thanks for saving me that money Renderosity, I am sure some pay pal customer will come along and make up for it.

okay now, i didn't read the whole of this string however, here are my 2 cents worth for whatever they're worth. while yes, paypal is notorious for freezing accounts and such? why not go through another company to handle said accounts? i closed my paypal account a long time ago due to the same issues that most (and i've read extensive forums on this very same issue) are experiencing with paypal. secondly, just who has the right to tell anyone in a forum such as renderosity that they cannot submit, say, questionable material? personally, i take a little time in not posting nudity and the like even though this site is within the interest of art. that does not mean that everyone has to follow my own set of standards. soooo we'll be losing a great bit of resource material over what paypal wants renderosity to do? is that right of someone else telling another party to ban or delete "questionable material" because of their own set of rules? no. its not right. no one, i don't care who they believe themselves to be, has the right to tell another what to post, where to post it, or in what context. thats why our constitution is in place to begin with. what does that come under, freedom of expression? freedom of speech? so what, we have yet one more thing taken away from us due to the "policies" of another? personally i think it sucks and perhaps the higher powers that be within a wonderful site that gives both merchants and customers a vast amount of choices should seek another to handle they're accounts before paypal also restricts theirs like they've done to countless others without so much as a "bite me" and without explanation. sorry, yes, i'm venting. i think it sucks.

Man, that is a pisser that they're banning Nerd for something the management should have done themselves. They always kill the messenger don't they? The administration had planned an announcement of this on their own. Nerd jumped the gun -- and broke the Merchant's Code of Conduct in the process. I did, and was banned from the merchant forum for my efforts. You pay a price for speaking your mind -- always. Moreso in places where you cannot. "I'm hyperventilating, OK? I feel faint. I'm worried that artists might pull ALL of their stuff from R'sity because they feel offended that one of their items is deleted! " Get a paperbag and hold on. Some artists may. Most won't. Because the policies that are going into place are no different from Poser Pro's policies. And are less restrictive thatn DAZ's. And both of those sites are doing ok. "While sex sells, and no one's going to deny that, people WILL deny that they're interested in buying. A large percentage of people who purchase anything sexually oriented, or watch porn, or make naughty pictures wouldn't want to broadcast that publicly." Well said. However, they will go to renderotica. Most of the folks I've known make a trip there at least once, and they do have stuff that's useful beyond the pornographic and even pornographic stuff that's useful outside of it. What, you think Dina can only be used for sexual imagery?

I was sick to death of all the tits staring at me in the marketplace anyway. Perhaps now we'll see some merchants put a bit of effort into their thumbs instead of using the 'sex sells' theory :) Hey ysaen, I've been out of the merchant forum for so long it's ridiculous. And they've never actually told me why I'm not allowed in there anymore shakes head If I need to know anything about merchant policies I have to write and ask :/

Ugh. Dina needs plastic surgery.

And yup - I shop at R'otica, no shame in saying it. Diane's good people, and so is Ironbear; got nothing but love for my fellow pervs out yonder.

I'm just curious to see if Tim's A/R department can take the punishment that he's about to inflict on it...

/P

Message edited on: 11/16/2004 15:31