Very interesting thoughts from everyone. I still have not heard anything from Curious Labs. The latest excuse presented in a later thread seems to have to do with everyone from CL being at a tradeshow. By the way, Just to remind everyone, I have not prejudged P6. I just want the opportunity to buy it at the cheapest price that I am truely entitled to.

dishonest whores Judas Goats forum weasels rabid fanboys flacks apologists revisionist history afficianados wannabes Any other insults that you care to throw around? You remind me of a worn-out wind-up teddy bear grinding his gears with the same old statements from years ago because someone forgot to change your chip. If there wasn't new software on the horizon, you wouldn't even be in here... you'd be off being ignored in some dark corner. The only importance you have is in being negative? Enjoy your fame... because your only contribution to this community for the last 5 years has been attempting to destroy what others have built. Wow. Such a life... smirking amid the broken glass... examing a shard and yawning because you don't understand it... not seeing its beauty but cursing when it cuts... how terribly, pitifully entertaining in such a miniscule manner. BTW, among the things you appear to have forgotten is that there is a difference between posture and position. Carolly

Supposedly this is foolish, but foolishness is an inconsistent hobgoblin. In any case: Extract: "Might surpise you, but I actually agree with you, Dale. Especially on given the ancient code based that wasn't designed to interface with the new coding, I think they did wonderfuly to get SR4 stable. And that's not a slap - it's an honest assessment of the coding problems from someone who used to play wih code." Comment: Beg pardon, sir, but that's bullshit. That is an expressed opinion from someone who would do it differently -- honest, perhaps, but hardly a fair assessment. While it may not have been intended as a slap, perhaps habit interfered -- it reads terribly. The term backhanded compliment comes to mind. Extract: "Same time, that "Don't prejudge" crap that people keep spouting cuts both ways. Agree?" Comment: not that I matter, but agreed. Note, however, that the "rise of the apologists" is directly contributable to the vociferousness of those who continue to use the "old code", "piss poor people", "incompetent idiots", and similar arguments (all of which are, bluntly, patently obvious to be in error by the fact that the program has somehow defied all reasonable business expectations and continued to both grow in marketshare and move further along a development path. So, in a very real sense, you could be held accountable for the creation of many of these "apologists" simply through the sheer force of your rhetoric. (For reference, however, note that the rise of the "bashers" is in response to old, dead horse, history, and has left a wellspring of "skepticism" that feeds them.) Extract: "There is no more basis for the assumption that e-Frontiers wil force Wienberg to pull a habit out of his rat this time than there is to assume that P6 will be a P5 fiasco." You seem to assume that he has something to do with it. Given that your general posting history indicates a personal animosity towards him (evidenced in the extract), this would put your efforts at discrediting into the "muckraking" section. Muckraking is an important service, mind you. But it also has some limits (extremism being one of them). Extract: "However, the skeptics have a lot more weight of experience on their side than the optimists. ;] Especially since a lot of the business model history looks to be repeating itself." Comment: Skeptics always have more weight -- history is irrelevant. It is easier to doubt (and, apparently, more gleeful). Skepticism, however, is just as applicable to optimism as it is to pessimism, and to claim refuge in it while being, generally, pessimistic is a disservice to the "cause" of skepticism, if you will. A truly skeptical person is going to doubt what is known just as fervently as what is not known. You fail that test, both by example above and in other postings. Optimism requires a greater degree of fortitude and character than pessimism. For the simple reason that it takes more strength to be positive and hopeful in the face of potential loss. Seems to exacerbate the issue. Extract: "There's an easy way to get me out of the discussion: the CL apologists can back the fuck up and let the buyers make up their minds without them running interference for CL. Let CL do their own PR. Let CL make their own announcements, without the forum weasel brigade advance selling it for them. Wait and see what they actually deliver, rather than encuraging people to pre-order on hype. Let them actually show if they've learned anything, and if they're serious about making good on their past fiascos. Let them deliver, or not." Comment: And you are? Other than the administrator and most vocal critic of Several members of Curious Labs, idiocy in action, left wing politics, and the vast bulk of websites (excepting your own, of course) surrounding this program, that is. Being nobody of any importance anywhere within the "poser scene" or whatever it is called, and being a causal observer at best of that, I find that statement to be, well, rather humorous. Chiefly because I have to wonder why folks would want you to stay out of the discussion. I've seen little in the last four years from you alone that warrants any sort of concern beyond the verbal venom you and some of your friends have been known to spout. Venom that is only as worthwhile as the time taken to read it. Aside from that, what you are basically saying is that no one is supposed to be saying anything "positive" about Poser 6 other than Curious Labs, while anyone is free to say whatever they want "negative". Which is not only Not the "American Way", as I understand it, but is also rather uncharacteristically foolish on your part. I would prefer you to propose something much more conducive to actual fairness: A specific forum/post where all the people who want to say something positive can do so right up against the people saying something negative -- a real freeforall, with all the figurative bloodletting and carnage so pleasantly associated with such absurdities. Would be more open, and provide a self professed carnivore such as yourself with plenty of spoils. (I'm led to understand that such a thread would not be possible here, but perhaps over at this www.xfx-3d.com site where your "radio free" thing is. It would at least allow the victims of character assassination from here the opportunity to defend themselves.) People will always defend what they claim. People who are unhappy will always strike at what bugs them. Since we do not live in an agrarian-pastorilist society where some form of bucolic libertarianism might be practiced were it not for the critical flaw of having people there, they will generally do it in a format that is acceptable overall. This appears to be the one for Poser. Rather than acting like some King's Messenger and stopping the discussion, perhaps you should join in without the pessimism and still retaining that healthy skepticism of yours. It might do more good. And it would free you of the "pre-judging" you yourself have already succumbed to due to your pessimism. Fools and their money are soon parted. If it wasn't spent on pre-release versions of what you have essentially called a bloated service release, it would be spent on equally mundane content for said program. Those that are excited about it will be excited. And when someone comes in to rain out their sunny day, they will get snippy. eh. Get over it.

"Might surpise you, but I actually agree with you, Dale. Especially on given the ancient code based that wasn't designed to interface with the new coding, I think they did wonderfuly to get SR4 stable. And that's not a slap - it's an honest assessment of the coding problems from someone who used to play wih code." Doesn't surprise me a bit. I know from past talk that you are an old school coder, like I used to be, and have a clue just how much baggage a Mac to Win 3.1 port created, and how hard it was to dig out (probably why they went to the Win2k spec finally; better memory management and just truncate about half the issues by amputating the 9x codebase). And it is honest. "Same time, that "Don't prejudge" crap that people keep spouting cuts both ways. Agree?" Definitely. That was why =I= got into it. There was a decided overbalance of the 'P5 Suxxor!! Die Cl Die!!!' cannula drippings oozing back to the surface, along with the 'Trust me fools, wait until it's available on Ebay for $5. Only an idiot pre-orders' yadda-yadda-belch-fart. "However, the skeptics have a lot more weight of experience on their side than the optimists. ;] Especially since a lot of the business model history looks to be repeating itself." They do? They have one blown release out of five. And from my memory, a lot of the pre-release cheerleading was being done by some of the same individuals referenced above. And in any case, you know the software business if you used to code. A new release that doesn't sell for a few months will sink -any- company... Remember the panic M$ experienced when all those twinkies who'd found Win2k didn't upgrade to XP? And all those subtle 'changes for security's sake' that essentially will attempt to force people to upgrade and pay no matter what their preferences? "There's an easy way to get me out of the discussion: the CL apologists can back the fuck up and let the buyers make up their minds without them running interference for CL. Let CL do their own PR. Let CL make their own announcements, without the forum weasel brigade advance selling it for them. Wait and see what they actually deliver, rather than encuraging people to pre-order on hype. Let them actually show if they've learned anything, and if they're serious about making good on their past fiascos. Let them deliver, or not. Then determine what to do if it's "Not"." I don't see statements like 'factor in the fact that the company is in the hands of an actual graphics production firm with quite a few years existance and a reputation in a rather demanding market' as being apologistic. Nor do I think I've been out cheerleading others to do anything but look at =all= the facts before deciding. Not just whichever group is being cutest. I'd be willing to zip it on the 'Don't prejudge P6 on what happened with P5 2 years and two distinct management teams ago' if the CL haters would do likewise. Twasn't I who drew steel first, good sir. There have been no 'California Dreaming' threads this go around; all the noise has pretty much been from the spiritual bastard offspring of NaySayGuy (sorry Doc... :P ), with the CL fanclub and middle of the roadies chiming in after the 734 day old monkey feces has been thrown at the rotary impeller yet -again-. Besides, you're unknown to a whole generation here O:) "Don't want to wait for that, get ready to deal with the old wolves like me that don't like seeing the community shafted with the tacit and implict aid of its own." That cuts both ways; deliberately wrecking CL when they may have gotten their act back together and be ready to rock will be shafting the community even worse. Hell, for what little I'm paying I don't mind being a test subject. Gives me a little running start on the learning curve...

Let Curious Labs answer for themselves instead of running and hiding and telling everyone in the company, "don't answer any phone calls." Cowards, and as someone once said here, cry babies.

Any other insults that you care to throw around? Well if we're going to mention stuff that could be considered insulting... Looking up before Ironbear even posted, what do I see? nay-sayers smirks of the jackals a more apt term: whiny little cry-babies bunch of kindergarteners yelling at least cats maintain a certain level of inward dignity whiny little brats can't wipe their own......noses without crying hysterically whiney little cry-baby demanding satisfaction and so on. ^^

Exactly, and what do you hear from Curious Labs? Silence... Still in hiding mode.

Oh for God's sake. Do you really think they are sitting around twiddling their thumbs and hiding in the corners? CL is not hiding. They are busy trying to get things ready for the release. You know what? Instead of complaining, be proactive and think of solutions. If you think you can write a better program, do it. If you think you can make better models, do it.

Why don't you let Curious Labs speak for themselves? Oh yeah, their too busy to bother with the customer. And you are a company spokesperson for Curious Labs. No. Just a wantabe. Oh, too bad. I'm sure Curious Labs will have nothing to do with you either. That really is poetic justice isn't it.

I'm not speaking for CL. I'm speaking for the 95% of people here who are very tired of hearing the other 5% complain about whatever issue is the burning complaint of the week.

Message edited on: 03/11/2005 11:50

"Enjoy your fame... because your only contribution to this community for the last 5 years has been attempting to destroy what others have built." Care to make a bet on that Carolly? I guarentee yer 100% wrong on it.

It's getting a little warm in here. Could we please turn down the flames before my thread gets locked. Anyone heard from CL directly and personally on their customer support issues?

No. I gave up. I ordered at full price. I wanted P6 that bad. I also doubt I'll ever spend anything there again. To bad, I was interested in the shade content disks, the one they have and the up and coming ones. They also had the nerve to tell me on my invoice that I can get 10% off my next purchace. Like that's going to happen.

The final e-mail I received was that THEY (Curious Labs) couldn't adjust the order to reflect the coupon discount because THEIR system wasn't designed to do that. I have to cancel my order and then reorder again. Of course in the process I will also loose the 15% serial number discount in the process because their system isn't designed to adjust for that either. So it looks like the final option for me is to blow off the 15% discount, cancel the order, reorder and capture the coupon discount. After all the positve expierences I have had with Curious Labs through the years. And I own most of their products. This really leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

I still cannot order. Tried again last night. It is certain that Katherine (et al) is working hard to get the missing user data all reconstructed, but this is getting ridiculous. In some ways, I'm glad that I couldn't place an order - a bad order where all of the entitlements are cancelled because DR doesn't have proper facilities. My financial situation isn't so great that saving $40-50 is not a concern. And I know the feeling, InfoCentral. Despite the trumpeted preorder successes, all in all, this is an overall disaster when a significant percentage of your solid user-base is left out in the cold or shafted...

What's the big benefit of pre-ordering? I mean if you don't care about the Snow Queen? Is the price cheaper? From past stories, it doesn't seem the pre-orders get Poser any faster.

Nothing to do with faster. 1. Special Edition "Snow Queen" is a nice collector's item as it were. 2. Cheaper?! As an "Early Adopter", I get the upgrade for $89. With the 'supposed' 15% discount for DR's f--kup, that price goes to $75.65. Is that less expensive than $129? 41% savings on the upgrade price alone (not to mention the base pricing)! Let's see if they hold up their end of the bargain. I don't care how long past the preorder deadline is.

I hear ya'. For me it's going to be like $20 more. What irratates me is that CL isn't taking responsibility for their website screw-ups, I have too. Their website refused to take my coupon like it should of but now I have to cancel my order and then reorder again (hoping it works) and blow off the 15% discount. Did you know that Animation Master is very similar to Poser? It has pose slider instead of dials and libraries for clothes and poses etc. just like Poser. I found that very interesting.

Some of us don't qualify for the early adopter price or the Digital River screwup compensation. So the original question remains: what incentive is there for me to Pre-order Poser 6? If you ignore the Snow Queen?

I already own Shade 7 Standard and I already have a copy of the training book for Shade. So really the only incentive for me to pre-order would be to get that free Drag Queen content I guess.