Sacada said it the best, and I find it interesting that while he is a fantastic artist, well accomplished in using vue, he has HEART and compassion for all of his fellows in the community. In posts I often refer to my PLAY ART...and that is just what it is... I play with doing art scenes, and I learn through doing, something new in each one...and I would hazard a guess that maybe one in 10 that I post (of play art) is special. I do enjoy feedback, but have chosen after a long time NOT to enable the rating under my art..while at the same time if I am "blown away" by someone's piece I will VOTE for it.... That said, I did actually add Robert to my Favorites so I could enjoy his amazing talent, before I really knew anything about him as a person. Now, I will continue to enjoy his art if he posts here, because it is simply stunning...but I will ALSO continue to enjoy all the art of my other Favorites - who, like me, are at the "normal" ability level too! ;) What is this software and our community obbsession with 3d objects for anyway, really??? FUN!! Pure, sharing, FUN...life needs a lot more of that these days, I think! :) I think very few of us make a "high end" living at this or we would not have the time to post here.... ?

I have just one last comment. CGTalk JUST opened a forum for VUE users on March 15 of this year. Until that date, Vue went mainy un-noticed among the so called "pros".

In viewing many of the pics there, I admit there are some really good ones.. there also is plenty of KITSH. Just because a picture was made using Maya, run throught 72 filters, has added features of lightwave, and a hundred other programs, and rendered for 7 days, it can still be KITSH. I see also that CGTALK also has it fair share of "buddies" that rant or comment on a entry not by what it is , but who they know.

So whats the point here? I think art is in the eye of beholder. If you LIKE a picture comment on it. It should not be a popularity contest. IF you have a constructive criticism, post that too. Most artists I know have a thick skin and don't mind real criticism or tips to do better. The real acknowledge that your work is accepted by someone is when they pay you for a copy. The link below is for a render called Flamingo Bay.
http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=697721&Start=73&Artist=Xiores&ByArtist=Yes

Is this KITSH ? I think so. Yet I sold it to a bar-resturant on Miami Beach for a little under $1000. Did it make the "hot 20"? Nope. But it did make it to one of the better bars who also sell it on their t-shirts.

So keep working on what you like, doing the best you can, and quit worrying over what other people think. Just because VUE 5 I is out, does not mean that no more good pictures can be made using VUE 3,4,or 5 to compete with it. Thanks!

Message edited on: 03/20/2005 18:19

I can see "that" on a t-shirt easily. Good job!

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=882701&Start=1&Artist=creed2003&ByArtist=Yes

Wow, I can't believe this discussion is still going on and that there are other posts in this forum on basically the same topic. I've been following along but have chosen to keep silent until now. Let me start by saying I've checked out your gallery czarnyrobert and you do have some excellent works. Even so I can't say I like every one of them but then that's just my opinion. Then again, my opinion probably doesn't matter much to you because I am a beginner, an amature with less than 6 months experience with Vue. Most of my images are probably the crap that your reffering to. (The link is to an image that I worked on for about 2 days and am very proud of. I'd be interested to see what your opinion is of it.) I'll admit I've posted some silly images, like the one I have since deleted of Emotia Guy riding a jet ski. It was a stupid render but I thought it was cute/funny and didn't really care what other people thought. I think that's what some people are forgetting here, some of us just post for the pure fun of it. Nothing more. We know our images aren't up to the professional level but we don't care either because we had fun making the image and want to share it with other people. Artists like yourself, czarnyrobert, are the people I would look to for help in making my images better. An experienced artist who can teach me the tricks of the trade, not bash my work because it's not up to professional standards. If I don't post my images then how can I learn??? Obviously, Renderosity has two different types of artists. The professional who is looking for a true ranking system and the novice/hobbiest/amature who just posts for the pure fun of it. Maybe the solution to all of this is a professional category where artists like czarnyrobert can post their work and leave the other categories to the rest of us amateurs. It would be interesting to see how many people actually post their pictures there :)

Had to check this person's work since you all say it's so good. I see a lot of models stuck in a vue scene, and sorry I don't think he's that great, I've seen better. But I would not demand that he not post here simply because I don't happen to like his style. The more models you throw in the longer the render, that doesn't make you better than the person who does a render of a beach with one tree. I don't think a few tutorials makes you and artist either. In one of the newer renders the roads don't even make sense, looks like all the effort was put into the ships. I don't typically cruise through the galleries making comments. If I like something I rate it. If it's excellent I say so, if not I try to give constructive feedback while realizing this person may not see what I see. Maybe the tree on the beach isn't the art, maybe it's the bird in the tree that is the key but one might be too quick to dismiss it because they see one tree on a beach and move on. "Just ask yourself why CGTalk artists don't post here... " Should I care that they don't? Marque

Well creed you are right, it is amazing that the longest threads are about ranking and discussions about what is art and what not, or which programm (tool) is good or not instead about the art (pictures/images) itself. So there are my two cents: To Robert and all the other pro, or semi-pro artists who are posting such fanstic works: KEEP ON POSTING!!! Keep on posting for the reason of showing what is posible, to inspire and to give beginners something to strive for. That should be you motivation! Not any Excellents or Great remarks!!! You should know that your work is good and give a damn about any ranking. Instead, if you spent so much time, sweat and tears (and I bet there were a lot of tears, when I consider how often my Vue is crashing when I work with it) why don't you do a tutorial about it like Thomas Krahn did about many of his works (which are stunning, btw)? Personally to me, any references to such a tutorial or image would give me more satisfaction that an "Exellent" (and if you look and count, how many "Jungle" pictures have been posted over the month - that would boost my ego on his place :-) Also, why not posting small items you created for an image in the free stuff section, to give the less experienced something as a start up help (I know, Robert, you did and many others too, but there could be more...) And now to the "amateurs" like me (I am only a sunday-afternoon-bad-weather-artist): What is the point of sending a picture? A- You think honestly, you work deserves to be shown, because it could be inspiring to others. B- You think your work is not that good, but you need help. Well then, ask for it!!! But in this case it would be a good idea to disable ranking... C- Neither of those two points, well then, why use network traffic cost to post it.... I have to admit that choosing if the work is worthy to be displayed or not is difficult. For my part, I have chosen that my work is not worthy to be posted, yet. And here is to you creed2003: Is your house a 3D model? If so, why don't you pose it into an angle view, instead of straight ahead? Maybe even into a view from slightly above or below? To me, the proportions of the trees you have used, do not fit to the house. I think their trunks are too big. Put some grass in front of your house as you did with the tree on the left to hide the sharp edge. Your background needs some attention. Either more blurr or a steeper hill (you can see the horizon without anything inbetween the trees and the sky which is highly unlikely). Also used some more vegetation, perhaps a hedge half way to your house and perhaps with a nice gate (you could use the wooden door which comes with vue - I think - and jolt it in the vertical size. To all, use you energy for art and not for fighting (or argueing, that's a waste of time!!!;-)

Muggle6 I thank you for your tips. I know it's not perfect and I'm only a beginner but my intention of posting was for exactly what you just did. To give me pointers on how to make my images better. Next time I make an image like that I'll use the pointers you gave me. Peace everyone!!! Jim

I just think that czarnyrobert has simply outgrown Renderosity and needs to move on to other sites like CGTALK. Why stay in a nest?

@Shonner Why to encourage someone to "leave" only because he/she posted his/her opinion. I would be disappointed if Robert would leave Renderosity. Don't you think it would be wise to make him share his work here as well? Maybe he can be convinced to live in both world. Art is no religion, so why not paricipate here at Renderiosiy as well as in CGTALK? Does it always have to be like "This is better than that?" @creed2003 I would like to see if your are incooperate some ideas in your linked picture. It would be nice to see if and that there are improvements even if it still looks like kitch ;- ) No really, it could be a good lessons for other hobby artist to see improvement. Because usually people starting their project very ambitious (by being inspired by really good examples) and then they are dissapointed by their own results. The reason is that they have no comparance to other work to see how slowly and painfull the progress can be (believe me, I know what I speak of. And the result are posting that others call (rightfully?) kitch. Mike

This is not the same Renderosity it was when I first joined up. Something has changed here and I find it very sad.

Having said that, I will continue to post my renders here, though from now on, I feel I will always have second doubts as to the level of my pictures/scenes.

To the Artist's like thomaskrahn, who share their secrets in how they created their renders, please, please, continue to do so.

thomaskrahn's Humidity Jungle tutorial helped me learn to create TWO beautiful renders (beautiful renders to me and some others at any rate), one of which won e-on's picture of the day.

The other was never submitted though I think it stood an excellent chance of winning as Vue4 had only been out for a few weeks or months by that time..... Here are the links...

http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=338217&Start=55&Artist=Belgareth&ByArtist=Yes

and

http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=329552&Start=55&Artist=Belgareth&ByArtist=Yes

The comment left by thomaskrahn after I sent him the link to show him what I did using his tutorial, is the Renderosity I remember. One where people helped one another and did not waste time on silly banter about Kitsch artwork or elitism.

I also feel it would be a great loss to the Vue Forum and Gallery if Robert, and others like him, were to leave. I may not agree with everything he and others have said here, but we all need something/someone to aspire to (if that is what you want).

To those who merely wish to have fun and show off their work or quick renders.... Why The Hell Not???
There is no set standard here (that I can see) and we all have to start somewhere.
I am one of the lucky ones that could/would fork out the 167,44 for Vue Infinite and I second the comment earlier that the users of Vue4; 4Pro and 5/Pro should not be intimidated by the new renders/scenes that will be hitting the galleries.

For me, Vue Infinite allows me to create scenes (like the two links above show) a lot more easily, with the added bonus of GR, GI and IBL, but I remind you that the two scenes were created in a Buggy Vue d Esprit 4, so the Eco-System is not necessarily a huge advantage. And for Vue4 Pro users, rodluc2001 has created an excellent GR lighting program that creates a Python script for you.
So... lets just have fun in what we are doing and help those who are learning...

Gareth:)

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?ForumID=12368&Form.ShowMessage=2156099

@Muggle6: Unfortunately I think I deleted that scene file. However I have a new image I am working on and actually posted it a while back in the forum for some advice. See the link for the prev post. You can see the original image which didn't look right to me and you can see the feed back I got. I attached the updated image using some of the advice I was given. Still needs some work but you can see the changes I made. The islands just don't seem right and I need a model of a cruiser to complete the image. Any advice???

I've been off the net for the last week or so, while moving, and am just starting to go through the forums and galleries to see what I've missed. I've got to say, I'm a little disappointed to see a few things in this thread.

The great thing about a software like Vue (4, Pro, Infinite, whatever...) is that all levels of talent, ability, and pocketbook can enjoy it. Whether you are interested in "perfecting" your sci-fi stuff, just piddling around with it and making the standard beginner's island-in-middle-of-sea-with-a-palm-tree, doing abstracts, killing time, playing with your imagination, doing photorealistic stuff, there's something in the various editions of Vue for just about everyone. While I admit there is stuff in the gallery I am not interested in, I would never make a cruel or mean comment to someone, whether in a critique or otherwise. Or to single out a few folks and call their stuff "kitsch" or whatever, to me, that isn't constructive at all; in fact, I find it rather unkind. One thing I've always liked about this forum is that most of the time, folks get along well, help each other, and defend each other when someone is being trolled or harrassed.

Please don't forget that there are people posting in the gallery of various ages, from teenagers to grandparents...people with physical and emotional challenges...folks who have a lot of time on their hands, and those who have to steal minutes to fire up their computers.

Robert and Cermit, I've always admired your skills at Vue, but I find it a little sad that you feel everyone posting in the gallery have to play by your rules...that only so-called "masterpieces" should be posted...that "art" is only what you may define it. What's going to happen in the Vue gallery if people post the kind of images you define as "kitsch"? Is Rendero going to close? Are people going to stop looking at your stuff? Is the sky going to fall? Will the universe implode? I doubt it. If you don't like "kitsch", how about just not clicking on the thumbnail?

I think Vue will survive regardless of the quality of Vue gallery postings. It's interesting that czarnyrobert thinks Vue will fail if not for him.

I just figured out what this arguement would be like outside of computer terms.

Take a get-together of people who like cooking. No schooling just love swapping recipes and having potluck sharing. Then in comes Emeril Lagsassi or Bobby Flay. They insult the people there by saying "You used cambell soup instead of making it for scratch?!?! You used a bag of veggies instead of fresh?!?! Come on people. Atleast try to make a good recipe instead before you share it with people of my sofisticated pallete. Keep this up and no other chefs will stop by anymore."

Atleast this is how it seemed to me. :) I for one would rather see people like cz shut up and get lost. Not because he doesn't have a right to speak his mind, it is because his work is so respected. When somebody likes you comes in and slams others, people get down about their work and stop. If even ONE person left these forums and never renders again because of feeling bad about the work, then you destroyed the whole point of this place. A place they once felt was a safe learning experience is now hostile to them. Good job.

NIGHTVOICE......HEAR HEAR Regards Essexboy