How many people are staying with Poser 4? Is there a way to get version stats? I still use P4 often when I have something quck and simple to do given the limits of my machine or if I NEED to run other apps simultaniously. But the bottom line is I have this strange obsession with the P4 figures and what I how far I can push them (See NEA by Narcisis). So yes, I am a P6 pre-order victom but I can't imagine giving up P4 and Pthe P4 figures. So who is running Poser 4 mainly/only and why?

Please excuse my typing... my tremor at work.

I am ... Mostly because it is tons faster and I takes a lot less time to do anything.

Me too (with Pro Pack). I can build much larger scenes before it starts to choke; maybe as much as three times larger than P5. I can't use many of P5's features anyway because Firefly locks up on me. I sure hope P6 is better.

Same, it's quick for me and I know it well. I'm too impatient to play with nodes and do math when I'm feeling creative. I just want to load up a scene, tweak some lights and render. But I'm just a hobbyist. ;) And yes, 6 should arrive here soon, I also couldn't resist the temptation of the advanced lighting/rendering features.

I have P5 but I have to admit I often resort back to P4 - it's just faster. Angel1

I am - I can't afford to upgrade every time something new comes along - which now'a days is EVERY TEN MINUTES! Poser 4 is hardly a relic - it's a good program, and the only way that it would cease to be useful is if everybody stopped using standard bitmaps and jpegs images because that's what the darn things for - to make images. It's a bunch of crap to see Poser 4 stuff suddenly disappear practically overnight and get replaced with stuff you can't even use because it uses "nodes" or some such garbage.Poser 4 can do just as much image wise as Poser 5 or 6 - sometimes better - it's just a marketing ploy to get you to keep having to buy all new crap.

It's a bunch of crap to see Poser 4 stuff suddenly disappear practically overnight and get replaced with stuff you can't even use because it uses "nodes" or some such garbage.

From what I've seen, most of the merchants doing P5 stuff have been making their materials Poser 4 compatible, AND Poser 5+ compatible. The only reason NOT to include Poser 4 material setups is if the product is dynamic and won't work in Poser 4 at all.

I doubt Poser 4 stuff will disappear overnight ... but then again, Poser 4 has had many years of support ... even through this past year. If anything, it was Poser 5 that was really neglected since its release ... and now that Poser 6 shows a lot of promise on the horizon you are seeing increased support for the materials room.

Message edited on: 03/27/2005 11:03

"It's a bunch of crap to see Poser 4 stuff suddenly disappear practically overnight and get replaced with stuff you can't even use because it uses "nodes" or some such garbage. Poser 4 can do just as much image wise as Poser 5 or 6 - sometimes better - it's just a marketing ploy to get you to keep having to buy all new crap." Wow. Advancing features in a program is just a marketing ploy? I don't see what all the resentment is for a software application to move on and modify it's features. P4 stuff isn't obsolete, it's still around strong as ever... just look at DAZ. Almost all their "crap" is P4-oriented, much to my dismay. Most P4 items run fine in P5/P6. You can't expect new items made for more advanced features to be backwards compatible with an outdated software. For instance, I can't load my 3dsmax 7 scenes in 3ds 3. I would never expect to. I certainly can't expect content creators for any program to never progress either, just because I might want to continue to use a 5 year old application.

I just did a set of textures for something that will be coming out very soon at DAZ. I won't mention what yet ... but I did P4 MAT files, Pro Pack MAT files, P5 MAT files, and P6 Material Collection files for them. I will do the same for any other products that I create that include textures, UNLESS they work only in P5 and P6. In that case I'll make sure they work in P5 and P6.

Well, we do feel like the red-headed stepchildren sometimes..;) I got P4 back when I had money, and now I don't have money, so unless I win the free copy of P6, I'm stayin'...;)

"and P6 Material Collection files for them." Awesome. I was hoping something would come out soon utilizing that new feature.

P6 Material Collection files The Lady of the Nile dress at RDNA has them as well ... along with material collection files and individual materials used in the collar and arm/wrist bands.

I'm a PP user...every now and then I'll use P5, get frustrated, uninstall and back to PP. Figuring out nodes, material rooms, face rooms, too much for me. One of the reason's I probably won't get P6, P5 was just a waste of money for me.

P4 here, too. It was my first Poser app and I won't be giving it up any time soon even though I've preordered P6, mainly because of the lighting improvements. I'd say more than half of my time working on any image is spent getting the lighting right so I'm looking forward to seeing what P6 has to offer.

I have Poser Pro Pack and I bought the Upgrade to 5. I installed 5 - worked with it - and went back to Pro Pack. Since I own Shader 7 LE I don't see the need to upgrade to 6.

All that I'm saying is that new software should be able to use both old and new stuff - They can make software that does that - so - why don't they... ANSWER: They want you to feel left behind, and force you through atrician to "keep up with the Jones's" and throw more money out the window constantly - it's called "Milking The Cash Cow".

Yeah I use P4 for speed. If I had my choice of new Poser software it would probably be something with just the P4 features (plus maybe Face Room) but mainly just with the cludgy legacy code removed... The problem with new versions is the bloat... I would rather have leaner meaner coding and a Pro version for all the fancy stuff... but I supposed that pro version would be supper expensive due to markets of scale, the single massive app lets both low end users and high end users share the incredibly low retail cost of the single app. I love those old P4 figures... they are so fast and you can do neat things with them, I still use the MorphWorld 1/2 morph sets etc. Does anyone still use Posette and Dork? Do you have images up like ernyoka1's http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=315404 warning: nude female chest on that image

I still have P4 on an extra Drive, but on the main drive, I just have P5. I use P4 render engine though. The firefly render engine just doesn't seem to like my computer. If I am rendering a single figure or maybe two it is fine sort of. It takes forever and a day and often as not will lock up. I got P5 most for the library setup...

I mainly use propack for the speed.

Why can't software be like cars,kitchen appliances,or furniture. I can keep my couch for decades - the only time I would need to throw it away and "Upgrade" would be if the darn thing got too stinky and broken down to work anymore. Trust me - when a couch needs upgrading - EVERYBODY knows it! I've had my refrigerator for God knows how long - it's probably got dust bunnies and pot seeds under it from the late 1970s - maybe even a ticket stub from a Fleetwood Mac concert or two - you know - back when Stevie Knicks was REEAAALLLLY HOT! - But the darn thing still keeps my food cold - never had to throw it out because my "Milk" or "Dozen eggs" was "incompatible with the operating system" or "Non-operational due to an obsolete working environment." I have an old 69 ford with all original parts in my garage - it still uses gasoline, and it doesn't have one of those goofy looking cyclopian "third tail lights" - but it's still functional. I'm in my late thirties myself - but I've got all original parts - and my pipes still work ok - so - what's the problem? That's why nothing's built to last nowadays - because it's not suppose to - hope everybody likes working overtime...

GREATEST AMERICAN HERO - I REMEMBER THAT SHOW DUDER! 8:330 PM FRIDAY NIGHTS ON ABC TV- A VERY LONG TIME AGO! LOL :)

Me too, Does anyone remember the Rat Patrol? Or how about UFO, Space 1999, Blake's Seven, Combat, Have Gun Will Travel, The Green Hornet, The Time Tunnel, Fireball XL5, Jonny Quest, Beauty and the Beast(TV series), Buck Rodger TV series, WonderWoman, Man from UNCLE or the Girl from UNCLE, Mork and Mindy, Quark, The Lieutant, Space Academy,Wild Wild West, Ark 2, Land of the Giants? A short list of some of my favorites!

I bought P5 and rarely used it. Then I saw the quality of the P5 renders using the material room. Suddenly skin looked like skin and leather, latex and pvc had terrific reflections. So I switched to P5, bonded with the material room and ordered p6 Again the materials are terrific in P6. I am also bonding with the cloth room. As a merchant I make all my products to cross from p4 up to P5. Now I will include P6. Once I bonded with P5 I rarely use P4pro even though it renders faster i can't get skin to look as good in P4. Happy Easter. Cheerio lululee

LOL, I remember ALL of those! I even had several autographed pics from the Rat Patrol. Heheh. And SciFi channel is showing Buck Rodgers one day a week. Jeez, we're old!

I moved to P5 for one and only one reason, library/content managment... Been posin's since version 2... I just wish we could all at least get to PP... Then we can finally be rid of rsr's and bum's forever.... With that said I am upgrading to P6 (when they ship me my darn box) for enhanced lighting (no offese but P4 lighting sucks..)... Might just force me to do more rendering inside Poser instead of in Vue... No one supports Bryce 3, No one supports Painter 6, etc... Most vendors/content suppliers usually only support current and ( current - 1 ), but you are fortunate that poser is also a hobbiest tool and most people don't have a P4, 3_Ghz machine, with 2+ GB ram... so I think support will go on, and on, and on.... again I hope we can see the end of rsr's and bum's... They are like stepping in animal droppings at the pet zoo... every once in a while you click on one and go....CRAP... :)

I'll stick with Poser 4 - not everone can afford the latest high end graphics cards or comps. I'm just a 'tinkerer' with 3D..so what I have will suffice until finances, and time improve. And I'd not complain TOO much if folks start producing models that require what the new programs and systems have. After all..there are LOTS of stuff still around for P4..no-body can use all of what is NOW available. Look at some of the awesome results that talented artist's have done with P4 and all it's "limitations". Having all the latest programs/models/computers...thats not going to help all that much if you still can't use it to full potential.

God how I have bitter contempt for the Czars of fashion, LOL.

I'm sure there is more content available on the net then for any of the new stuff... it was a less comercial environment then.

I'm sure there is more content available on the net for P4 and P4 figures then for any of the new stuff... it was a less comercial environment then.

It's not what you have or how many; it's what you can do with what you have that makes art. If someone can create something incredibly wonderful with P4 and someone can't do squat with P6 and all the goodies, who's better off? It still comes down to what comes out of your head and your imagination and how well you portray it with enough artistic thought and beauty to capture your audience, whether you do that with P4 or P5 or P6 or all three, it's what you can do that matters. All the tools in the world won't 'do that for you' without YOUR thoughts. There's new cars out there that practically drive themselves. Once they get where they do drive themselves we will all forget how to drive and probably just thumb our noses at other folks and make faces at people due to sheer boredom of just being driven around. Now, if they make a Poser version that thinks, we will be in pretty big trouble. Can you imagine?

I used to love Greatest American Hero. Nice pic, but the shoulders look kinda scary.

Still love Blake's 7. The cheesiest FX the world has ever seen, but they made up for it with good writing.

I really don't think it's fair to accuse CL of "planned obsolesence." It's not like they're coming out with new versions every year, and not supporting the old ones. P4 dates from the Windows 95 era. There's good reason to update software that old; modern hardware and operating systems offer a lot of advantages.

And both CL and most Poser merchants support P4 to a much greater extent than most Windows 95-era products get. DAZ supports P4 better than P5, fer crissakes. CL includes all the old content in P5 and P6, including the P4 figures. Heck, even the Poser 2 figures are included. What more could you ask?

I couldn't really ask for much more than that - but the question is - for how long?

At some point I would think there would HAVE to be a change, if only to incorporate more efficient and progressive ways of handling the rigging. We're working with methods that are over ten years old now, and there are probably much better ways to control figure movement than the method currently being used in Poser (this was brought up in another thread). Another nice thing would be to be able to support multiple resolutions of a model. In other words, if you had support in Poser for subdivided surfaces, you could use a lower-resolution model that LOOKED as good as a high resolution one. It would be a lot more efficient for animation and the calculations and simulations wouldn't take as long. As a developer, I have to keep four versions of Poser on my system for testing. I hope that when Poser 10 comes out in the future I don't have to keep all versions back to four! LOL I'd be spending a week just to make stuff compatible with older versions. 8-)

Another nice thing would be to be able to support multiple resolutions of a model.

They are doing that. At least DAZ and CL are, with low-res Jessi and James, and low-res M3 and V3.

IMO, they should consider different rigging for high-res and low-res models. Apparently, the lack of a buttocks group in the P6 figures was to make posing with IK easier. That seems like more of an animation issue, and perhaps better suited for the low-res versions of the figures.

It would make conforming clothing more difficult if the two versions were rigged differently, but if dynamic clothes catch on, that will be much less of a problem. I would expect animators, at least, to embrace dynamic clothing, so conforming clothing makers could perhaps stick to the high-res figures without leaving out too many users.

Another nice thing would be to be able to support multiple resolutions of a model. By subdivided surfaces, I mean providing a lower resolution version ONLY, and adjusting the fineness of the model within Poser itself. The higher you set the subdivision setting, the softer and more detailed the model looks. One model, multiple resolutions. LightWave, Max, Maya, most high end software does this now.

Could you do that so only the parts that need it are high-res, as others have mentioned?

The more I've looked at the other figures, the more impressed I am with DAZ's. V3 is lower-res in places like the back of the head, which isn't often seen, and is rarely morphed, and high-res in more interesting places, like the face, joints, and boobs. The polys follow the lines of the muscles, to help the muscular morphs look more realistics. A lot of figures aren't as judicious in their use of polys. I think one of the reasons Jessi has 115,000 polys (or thereabouts) is that she's high-res even in places that don't need it, like the back of the head.

P4 still. Skipped P5, but have yearned for dynamic clothing and more realistic hair, so, since no one in this typically hyper-critical crowd has seriously dumped on it yet, and the new features do all sound pretty interesting, especially (for me) the lights and materials, I'll be ordering P6 this week. [Note to CL Marketing Dept: Mec4D's recent posts have probably had the most impact on getting one of your most parsimonious customers to actually pull out the credit card for this version.]

I think it is interesting how prominent you secrete P4 users are... I recognize nearly all the usernames as people with real standing. Itsinteresting. Also, I'm glad (I guess) that Randy brought up V3/M3 Reduced Resolution... I didn't know of them (I don't shop that much)... perhaps that will be my way to give in to the Millenium 3 monster. But I realy do love my Posette!

"God how I have bitter contempt for the Czars of fashion, LOL." Mugsey, What IS your problem? You can use all the P4 figures inside P6 (in fact all the past figures and content come standard with the application). They haven't been abandoned. You can use the P2 figures!!! You can use the original woody!!!!! You can still use the old material room (they have a simple form and an advanced form). You don't have to learn anything new if you don't want to. You can even load the maps by hand instead of using MATs. You can still use the P4 renderer (it is one of 4). That way you won't need to read the manual or play with lights and depth or do anything interesting with atmosphere. As for milking a cash cow... some companies upgrade every 6 months, so CL averaging 2-3 years seems more than reasonable. It gives them time to develop new features... features which many of us have clamored for! So... what IS your point????? Just because YOU don't want to play with realistic materials or light sets doesn't mean that everybody and their second cousin ought to be forced to sit in a smoky crumbly cave watching the aurochs die off. Some of us want to come out into the daylight and make real scenes. BTW, you can make your own black pigment by holding a plate over a candle and collecting the soot from the smoke stream. If you don't have a plate, use a rock. Animal fat makes a good binder, but spit will do. Making a brush from a proper twig is advanced tool-using, and requires the ability to recognize which ones will work well, so I won't bother you with the details. Carolly

I am still using Pro Pack. I got scared away from version 5 by all the complaints about it here. We will have to see what version six brings.

Carolly, It is not as though our bitching about software bloat is gonna make CL come and wipe P6 from your drive. What we are talkng about here is software bloat that keeps people from upgrading... I think many people enjoy the small footprint and speed of P4 and are entirely satisfied with the features... we idely passing the time wishing that as well as the release of monster P6 that there was a P4 upgrade that focused on cleaning up and optimizing code rather than adding features that require serious platform upgrade we can't afford and are used only by the most sophisticated artist (such as yourself)... With P4 we are talking about a totaly legitimate and functional software that is not out of date but is very suitable for many users and doesn't harm the cutting edge user. What would be neat is a Poser 6 Lite for consumer users similar to PhotoshopLE... although, I can well understand the a market analysis my have proved that to be totaly unfeasible comercially. Yes, I know about Poser Artist but I don't believe it includes any refining or rewriting of code. I often use PhotoshopLE not because I don't know how to use CS (I have taught at University on Photoshop and Painter for artists) but because it is faster to load and faster to run on the crappy PC that happens to be all I can afford and very often it has all the features I need for a project, some projects that are my livelyhood. Some experts delight in using every new feature on the latest version, some delight in pushing old software to its performance limits. 3Dream and I got terrific results from P2 hacking P2 even though we were using ProPack and Millenium 2 at the time, its just something that apeals to some people, I can do better painting my 370k Aprentice or my 1.3Mb ArtRAge any day than with my Painter which I don't think I have run in sixmonths. Anyway, I guess it upset a lot of people when bored guys on the corner wished outload that Fords came in other colors than black... after all, what was to keep them from going out and buying a bucket of paint? BTW, as an early (prehistoric) programer (I strated with punchcard "jobs") I am suspecious of anycode bigger than 1Mb. Yyou would be amazed how small and stable AND powerfull code by independent deveopers can be. You might be amused to know that I always use animal hide primer and hand ground pigments when I paint anything aside from sketches (eggs and drying oils make good binders, spit is for blending, and you a good way of making a brush is to burry part of a stick or bamboo until the micro organisms break down the cellulose). I do not weave my own linen, I know you were probably going there, but even in the old days someone might kill the cariboo and someone else work the bones into a little carving. I also live in a house I did not build and wear clothes I did not make. The issue is... which would you prefer for a great piece of softwear, that it get cleaned up and fixed or that it just grow and grow and grow... my little word proceesor has more features than I'll probably ever find out about and certainl consumes a lot of memory but I don't think it has improved my writing one iota from when I used WriteNow4 (350Kb and the most functional WP ever). I respect the people who have responded to this thread as I do you. Certainly the court of affluent opinion and commercial common sense favour your view. I'll just crawl back in my whol and keep quite ... and hope maybe I don't have to buy a new computer to run that P6 box set I pre-ordered. I am sure I will love its new features tremendously but it won't mean I'll be less nostaligic for the time when it was users pushing the limit of the software with their inventivnes and the scene wasn't so comercial. I'll never get over MorphWorld 2.0 coming down, the real end of an era. I wonder if Poser 7 have that famous "make art" button I am so desperate for? No offence, just joking :)

I still prefer Poser 4, but my libraries are too large to use it anymore. Poser 5 is nice, but I find even the P4 renderer takes too long in P5. I'd go back if P4 could handle subfolders and large libraries. I like P5's ability to handle multiple runtimes.

At first I was excited by subfolders but then they lost thier alure. Back with P4 I had different runtimes and tricked Poser by naming the "1-Rubtimes", "2_Runtimes", etc. and lopping off the "prefix" of the one I wanted to use for my work in Windows Explorer. I never did get them properly organized so I think I will reinstall everything fresh into new runtimes for P6... I just have not figured out the best schema yet. I use P5 mainly for clothroom and sometimes Face Room and Materials MATS and occasionally node stuff... but for speed in my comercial stuff and personal stuff I most often use P$... I postwork the heck out of everything anyway.

momodot, It may surprise you to learn that I'm a DOS-asaurus... and still use programs written for DOS because Windows is bloatware. There are things that DPaint does better than PhotoShop, and I still use it for commercial projects when absolutely precise pixel-by-pixel bitmapping is necessary. I prefer to write my letters and design documents on WordPerfect for DOS. I alos have WordPerfect on the Mac. It isn't quite abandonware. :sigh: If Poser 4 is still being sold, then CL certainly isn't abandoning those customers who only need basic tools or who are quite content with running smaller programs on older machines. I have a roomful of legacy machines which I try desperately to keep running. I can understand if someone doesn't have the cash to upgrade or to buy modern 4 gigs o'ram game-busting machines with the fastest video cards out there. But why are they not simply honest saying "I can't afford it" or "I don't want it", rather than saying they have contempt for anybody else who dares to upgrade after 3 years? Enjoying sour grapes is one thing... throwing them at someone else is another. Carolly

I am definately surprised you run DOS! And jelouse. And I'll tell you straight up... I'm too poor to upgrade my machine (fingers crossed P6 will run)... although I don't think I'll ever say I'm poor as long as I have heat and clean water. I just have this aesthetic obsession for small code, for what esentially comes down to "technological minimalism"... it comes down to elegance, acreted programs used to be called "cludgy". Programing should aspire to more and more optimized size not bloat and legacy code. I can't say how much I wish I was running a Linux box (or even a DOS system). The main reason I am not is that I could not figure out how to run Poser without some bastard Windows emulator and they all seemed to require a full Windows install. With the Poser figures, again, I would love to see low poly well-rigged mesh-optimazed figures but alas I have not the skill despite Geep's able instruction... I have never been able to rig a hand right whatsoever, not even loading in a boning from an existing figure :(

Hands are quite difficult to make work properly, and if the hand object doesn`t have enough polygons you can forget about making it work right.

i am still using Poser4 - and nothing else ...