Well, seems I have yet to hear or see anyone of real signifigance to the cause complain about anything of real concern. I would imagine that if there were such considerable quality control issues here we would certainly hear plenty of them by now from the genuine customers, what with all this commotion regarding the perplexing state of affairs of the store here. Not only that, but if indeed there were such grave tactics as shoddy workmanship and poor quality control here I am certain even the vendors themselves would have a tendancy to make their voice heard, and not through the shadows of others. Creators and Artists have one thing in common, and that is the love and cherishment of their work, no matter how poor another may judge it to be. There will always be some better than others, and items of more sustinance and popularity, whether they be young pretty fairies or incredibly realistic armor or textures to die for, it's whatever tickles your fancy. And as stated above, if it's not something anyone really wants, then it won't sell anyhow. Some folks are specialists at making things and have it down pat, others are just beginners, both work hard in their own right and both have as much right to feel proud enough and and yes, they should also have a right to try and sell it too. I have downloaded things from the freestuff that would even make the best of the best great competition, and I wonder why on earth they didn't sell it too, does that mean I then think it's unfair for those great, well known artists to sell their stuff cause I got something in freestuff that may put them to shame? I think not! My opinion, for what it's worth, and it may just be worth a lot more than you think, is that this is all just hyperbole to make the customer base here uneasy and perhaps window shop and even spend elsewhere. If there is the slightest doubt in their minds that a quality control problem exists here, then even work by the best offered at both places will be purchased at the competition because it will be assumed and acknowledged in the average mindset of the average customer that the competition has the more reliable and problem free item. I don't find the source of this fabricated vilification the least bit professional and actually quite shameful, because it does little more than segragate all the wonderful communities throughout and cause anxiety and hardship not only for the consumers, but also the vendors as well. Artists and creators should NOT be a catalyst for political rivalry and should certainly not be used as tightropes for monetary ascencion. I believe that if this site were really only interested in what is best for the site owners then they would have only what they KNOW will sell outright, so that profits would indeed flow readily. But as such, they give ALL walks of credible vendors a chance to enjoy the benefits of value for their work and refuse to discriminate to only select choice materials. Prime rib is not an issue here, even sirloin tip and heavens, rump roast may have some appeal to to the masses of different customers with their various cravings and savings. Rad

Heh. That was pretty nicely stated, Rad.

{{illusions if I didn't buy them and my unsubstantiated opinions of the items my friend bought doesn't matter why should I tell you anything?}} Ragingwolf, I think we just found something to agree about. We are not looking for opinions here, were are looking for FACTS to substantiate the statements that the merchandise here is "second-rate" or "70% - 90% shit". I don't think we'll find any. So, if you want to provide the answers to the questions I asked fine...if not, well...case closed. RadArt, welcome back, you stated things very nicely. I guess this just brings so many other industries to mind. Take the publishing industry for example, just because Random House and the other major publishers don't publish every book they receive, it doesn't mean all the other books published by the smaller firms and niche firms are shit. Some of the best reading and most helpful books I have ever had come from bargain racks at the grocery store. What a shame it would be if those authors were never given a chance to make their work available.

Please just ask your vendors for their opinions! Ask the ones who have been with you the longest. I am in contact with several of them and have heard the complaints- hence my original statement. There is a lot that goes on behind the scenes that (thankfully) doesn't get made public. I could give you names but that would be a breech of trust on my part- and say what you will about me or whatever, I won't be playing that game. I know that at least one of them has written the store a letter about it, and this person at my request would re-send the letter if by some chance the original got lost in the mail. Please try to remain open-minded about it- it is for the sake of the members and even though I may in the future once again market some things here or there or everywhere (most likely my own account), I really don't care about competition between stores or whatever- I care about my friends. Thank you all for your time, and for the fact that there is a concern here. Please do not let the BS rhetoric deter you from checking it out fully! Thorne who loves his dolls and his friends=};-}>

all i can say is, i haven't encountered this "70 - 90 % shit" in our store here on renderosity. i haven't been able to buy - no credit card - but what i see is stuff that people have worked hard on, whether it takes them weeks, or a couple of hours. when and if i get a credit card, i will definately be a regular customer. i know i had a slight mixup with one of the dresspaks i sell, but it was taken care of quickly and professionally by the staff. and, i received one very polite email informing me about this. that's how it is in our community. good people that are willing to not only stick together, but to also give others the same opportunity. i keep a pretty low profile here, but i see the "esprit de corps" all the time, and that's why i keep coming back! just my 2 cents worth :)

Nawwhhh... 'jes fergit about that little "s***" comment which was a little overpassionate to say the least and don't count in this here ongoing civilized discussion among us polite adults and faeries ;o) But while we're on the subject of the, hehe, the "S" word... Y'all check out my next little post. I made this just recently for the purpose of creating a high integrity polymesh, solving Poser's little problem it has of trying to round off all the square edges (that's what causes those funny "shadows" on square edges of props that haven't been "Poserized"). Used to do it by disconnecting the corners, but that sometimes caused problems in getting all the surface normals to face the same direction- this solution "flushes" that little aggravation right down the old drain... Puttin' this in a separate little post (below) 'cause this is just one of those little freebies the faeries like to drop off from time to time in unsuspected places... it will be gone in a little while, so get it now while it's, teeheehee, hot! Note the very fine squared edges on the bottom of the seat there.... The "S" faerie =};-}>

Attached Link: www.thorneworks.com/sdms/ThroneRoom/ThornesThrone.zip

LOL, that looks like good quality "s***" to me ;-) RDS FFM? -JH.

Yep, RDS FFM. My modeler of choice nowadays. Can do anything with it, just takes forever!

"I could give you names but that would be a breech of trust on my part- and say what you will about me or whatever, I won't be playing that game. " No insult intended by quoting your phrase here, Thorne. I just thought that that was a sentiment that should be commended. Our words and our actions online are the only coinage we have for people to measure us by. Refusal to break confidences is one of the qualites I value the highest in my friends. Kudos.

As Jaager and I develop a product such as Saluda and our forthcoming Delilah, it is constantly passing back and forth through three machines, two on my side, a Compaq and a Dell, and his machine, back and forth, back and forth. We keep every single version back to the first morphs, so that should a problem be detected at any time in production, we can fall back as far as is needed to correct the problem at it's source, then move forward again with development. On Saluda alone a total of over 300 hours went into her. In the end I lost count, so it is hard to say how many hours total. Alot. When we feel the model is ready for an outside 3rd party opinion, we call in beta testers. I generally take on about 10 beta testers. Some of the best and brightest names in this community have helped me out here, names you know and that we all respect, such as Thorne, JeffH, Traveller, Darth e Logic, Marque, Renapd, Jen, Kennect, etc. I take each of their comments, letters, and suggestions into account, and woe is me, have been known to toss the baby out with the bathwater and yet AGAIN start afresh if one of them finds something so serious it calls for another fallback. As for Saluda, other than two Mac users needing a walkthrough on how to install her, and one guy with a corrupted Vicki rsr file, we have never once had a problem to handle. I think our sales volume speak for our quality and the care we take. I answer all of my own tech support email, and even my fan mail myself, within 24 hours of receipt :) No matter how long it takes, we do not rush it. One cannot serve a fine woman, nor a fine wine, (or even a fine faerie), before their time ;P But I do have to wonder you know, of this other 75 to 90 percent that supposedly are doodoo... that is a bit hard to believe, since when I visit this store, then stroll across the road to 3d Commune Store, I see the 75 to 90 percent of the EXACT same product line? So I guess from this I am to infer that 75 to 90 percent of both stores must be doodoo, or someone did not do his math right. I have bought several things from Renderosities store in the past. Each time, of course, since I like to get under the hood, I take it apart and make it work better to fit my needs... but never have I felt so absalutely disgruntled with anything I have bought I would call it shit, or want my money back. I just like to make hotrods go faster ;P And that is my 50 percent.

Hrmm... you know, I've been wandering through the storms of controversy surrounding this at all three sites and in all the various forums that it's being discussed in. I've been reading everthing posted, and sometimes reading between the lines... and doing a lot of thinking while reading. [I know, bad habit and yes that was smoke you smelled. :)] Here's an observation... As a writer, I cannot believe that another writer would make some of the statements made unthinkingly. Writers pick their words and phrasings carefully, and shape them to evoke just the reactions that they want to evoke in their readers. A question I have is: Are these just the very reactions that were meant to be invoked in us? Here's a hypothetical for the conspiracy buff in all of us: Wouldn't it be absolutely fascinating if someone deliberately raised a huge flap over this subject... got all sorts of people stirred up, and discussions about quality and independant quality reviewing going... And then along the way, someone - pick anyone - were to abdicate their previous position in the community and lo and behold, a few weeks or a few months later popped up as the head of a supposedly independant product review board? Purely hypothetical, of course - but when something like this pops up, I like to play around with what ifs and whys... But then again, I'm paranoid... and I learned a long time ago deer hunting in the ozarks that where there's rattles there's generally snakes. Illusions... I'm not saying that your proposal isn't a good idea. But let's be very careful here... It's important that all of the brokerage sites do their own independant in-house quality control and testing, in addition to any outside quality control. If there is an independant review board, it should be independant - not affiliated in any way with ANY of the online brokers. And it should not be chaired by, owned by, operated by, or staffed by ANY member who is afilliated with the ownership of a brokerage firm. Not Admin, not moderator, executive or otherwise... current or former. If it is... then it's independance, impartiality and integrity are questionable at best. None existant at worst. I'm not saying that any of this speculation is anything but that - pure speculation on my part. But like I said... lets be very careful and keep our eyes open, all of us.

Yeah, I have to say that was kinda easy to read between the lines bear. I do agree with you though, I really feel it is the responsibility of the owners of the sites to have their own quality assurance people. Actually, I think the bulk of the testing is the responsibility of the creators before anything gets submitted, and they should provide a list of the testers and some form of the results of the testing with the submission. As far as an independent agency goes, I have my doubts about that...although a group of volunteers that DON'T take payment for their services would be ok. That's what I had in mind when I discussed setting up an independent group in another thread. I just seems that when you pay somebody to test something, you expect a certain amount of leeway with testing results, that may not be acceptible to a consumer. That creates a means for a vendor to ignore a what may be a real problem and say, "well screw you it passed testing so you must be doing something wrong", and the organization to say "well it passed our tests so you are obviously not using it within the specifications". The problem is, pretty much as you said though, independance, impartiality and integrity are questionable at best with any group of people, but even more so with an angency that requires payment for it's services. If they want money, that means they have to have profits to offset expenses and administrative salaries...and I've seen that spell underhanded dealings many times before. Even the United Way was not immune to so little of the contributions going to the charities they supported because of inflated administrative salaries and expenses. They even had one guy flying off on junkets and purchasing personal items that prompted the government to require strict oversight and controls. And when it comes to measuring profit over adherence to standards and stringent testing...well even Firestone and Ford caved in to profit. You can't tell me those tires weren't given the benefit of the doubt on any test results to get them on to market. If something wasn't rotten in Denmark with quality assurance there...I don't think Ford and Firstone would be pointing fingers at each other for the tire failures. I'm sorry, I think there are way too many honorable and qualified beta testers that would gladly offer their services for free or in exchange for a finished version of the product they tested, that wouldn't be willing to exchange their integrity for anything.

Bwahahahahahahah. I like it. PIB... what, is this the true counter organization to the PTB? Er... you guys don't shut down underground Radio Stations operated by wierd mettalic bears you ya?

Nah, thats what the FCC is for. lol. We prefer just to investigate strange phenomenons like those Bryce crop circles,why the poser dork so resembles the Roswell alien and the mystery of why poser is such a damn resource hog! Z

snicker Get any findings on that resource hog thing? Perspiring minds wanna know...

Naw naw naw, you got them all wrong. One should be sort of a rail skinny weasel type, with blonde hair. The other sort of a hibernating hedgehog type with a beer gut and dark hair. And both armed with guns, matches and cans of petrol! ;p

And marshmallows and smores fixings. One of them DOES look a bit like EvilTed...

FYI I was alerted to this thread by a friend. I want everyone to know that I am not the Jen that Ragingwolf is referring to. I have only ever used the nick of Jen here. I have no idea who any of those other people are. And I dont want to be associated with any of this. Thank you

I can also verify that, as the Lady Jen, our Jen here is a beta tester for FeverDreams, and one of our best. I know her well, and respect her greatly.

Not to worry Jen...Russell just cleared that up before your post, and Mehndi also did just after yours ;^) One other thing...uh guys...don't take this the wrong way, I love your humor and Ironbear, you especially understand I don't mean any offense by this, but could we not go off topic and make a joke fest in this thread...I don't want others to be discouraged to post because of a string a 20 or 30 jokes after all the serious stuff we've been discussing, and I don't want others to be encouraged to take this off topic and turn it into a joke fest either. That is not to say you can't use a little humor in the context of discussing this topic.

smacks illusions around a bit for trying to keep a C&D thread on topic Ok, so where am I supposed to move the thread if it goes off topic?!? This place is the dumping ground for off topic threads! :)

Ummm...maybe we need a Renderosity Dump Forum for off topic threads now.... ducks and grins sheepishly Hey, you brought it up! Damn...now you guys have me adding to the joke fest!!!!! :^P

arches her eyebrows and takes away Illusions share of her special chex mix, merely pointing up at her own thread on malicious password changes. Harumph!

pouts and sighs I been a BAAAAAAAAAAD Boy!!!!

hey y'all sorry if I pushed anybodies buttons, but I thought everything that could be resolved from this thread was resolved a few days ago. It did start up like 5 days ago, but if I was mistaken, apologies all around, I for one like my serious with a touch of humor, helps me keep perspective. After all, life's too short, then you die, no sense getting there early! Z

Urhmmmm... how a bout moving to Render Wars? [Ducks and runs like hell before rcook AND TIO come after him] Yeah, I see the point. Sorry... that PIB post COMPLETELY derailed me. Apologies to Jen for the confusion... also, I don't care to pick on Stormrage, Jack or anyone else in this. My point on the conjectural post on the testing was that I wouldn't submit an item for review to ANY outside testing agency that had clear ties to any of the brokerages - wether those ties were to Zygote, here, or DSI. I'd rather do without the "Stamp of Approval" and take my chances. My view in that case would be that a purchaser could always view my gallery and my free stuff items and see the quality of work that I do. I wouldn't hold the same views on a In-House testing agency because those are suposed to be affiliated with the site brokering the item... their job is to make sure the item meets their quality standards, not to satisfy an arbitrary ratings board. I'm not really certain where to go with this right now... I am willing to draft up some proposals as an adjunct to a similar project I'm working on with a few members and when they're worked out... submit them for perusal. I'm also willing to take suggestions and input on what members would like to see an independant graphics arts guild offer in the way of services, protections and benefits to it's members. My email is s_barnes@swbell.net

ZeroWolf... wether it's this thread or another, I'm afraid the issue of quality for borkerages and protection and fair treatment for the artists involved is going to be around for a long time to come. I for one have no problems with a bit of humour with my seriousness, sardonic or otherwise... Just so long as people understand that inspite of the joking, I view my rights and the rights of the other artists and companies involved with deadly seriousness under the humor.

NAH...zerowolf...it's ok...I have a sick sense of humor, just ask Ironbear, I wuz just being funny and mainly ragging on him. You guys are free to post what you like, this topic is getting old anyway, besides isn't it Miller Time!?!?!? looks around and whispers Psssst Z, you wanna ask Mehndi for a double helping of that special chex mix of hers and maybe split it with me???

Borkerages? BORKERAGES?!? Man... I'm afraid that typo just blew the seriousness of that post away.

Hrmmm? Illusions? Nah... no sense of humor whatsoever. snicker

Geez...somebody take away bears TV...Borkerages...this happens everytime he watches Confirmation Hearings on CSPAN. It's ok bear...Bork was never confirmed, remember they picked Clarence Thomas instead. Hey is that a hair on your beer can?

Nah... it's a furball. Smoke likes the taste of Grizzly Beer... but it gives him indigestion.

I was alerted to this thread by a friend as well..especially since Jack mentions my name on his original post going way back to the past! I'd go even further..to when the flame about a potential STORE broke out..most of you, some by other names today..still remember it! I still stand for everything I said then, in-between and I guess the future too! Why? Not because I'm against sales, on the contrary! Just because when it comes to sales I want to be fair not only to myself but the rest of this community as well..so here's how I've always been reasoning the issue in my own mind that seems pretty clear to Darth Logice's opinion but from another point of view : I would never consider it right to sell a sole character myself, simply because the original tools most of us use are provided mainly by Traveler himself and so many others like Jaager etc. Yes, I mean the morphs!.. Not to mention that further down the line we combine and recombine other people's character faces along with new ones..in a few words, it doesn't sound ethically right to sell a character unless you create a character on your very own from scratch, a totally new mesh or morphing every single bit on it on your very own!How many of the character creators around can really do that? Very few I'm afraid! We all enjoy the leisure to disguish our steps behind Maz's Morph Manager - another free provided utility... And what good would that be if you create the most perfect body when once you conform a piece of clothing it won't show as it should any more? I could never sell a body texture or clothes texture for the defaults..WHY? Because all of us have been taught so much by TimLaubach over the past and because being a texturer myself I DO know how hard or easy the fanciest texture can be to be worthwile a job to be sold on its very own as a single item! So what's left? Original meshes and textures for those! I also happen to disagree (I've always had) with the set prices of BOTH stores! No matter how hard all the creators strive to accomplish a selling item..they are not ZYGOTE even there seem to be quite a few comments debating that company's quality too..To me, it's silly even to consider myself or anything I do equal to a large experienced company's stuff that's been around from the very beginning of Poser and to put a price tag on my stuff similar to theirs! Then what? To sell it through the store for a reasonalbe affortable price to all user and get the brokering half percent of pennies..what for? I'd much rather make it availabe for free and make a lot more people happy, especially ones not located in the USA and not as priviledged.. BUT don't take me wrong! That's how Renapd thinks! It doesn't necessary apply to any other of you and it's not the only way out OR how you should think and face this issue!.. Just another detailed explanation of where I personally stand and why I abide by this policy of mine through-out all my years in poser, without critisizing anybody who had different points of view! It's just my personal choice and if Jack hadn't brought up my name, then I might not even have participated and stayed totally out of this flaming thread, minding my very own business as I always do, any forum around, with the one and only true name of mine that I use, aka Rena and PD which happen to be the initials of both my maiden and married last names! Oh..one last thing I'd like to add..if the store contributor himself or herself can't find the gutts and disency in his/her own heart to evaluate the work supplied, accurately and non-emotionally influeced by the attachment that a personal piece of work always carries..then it's useless for any of us going around moaning and growning and debating about the Store itself being responsible for low quality, not after such a long time and the way things have become an establishment... High-standards should had been set from the very start as I used to scream around here along with Allie...now it's too late! And this goes to both sides, Renderosity AND 3DCommune! Unfortunately as long as people are still around..money will be the one who runs the game! And a rule wouldn't be a rule without the exception of a few 3D artists around who still remain the naive daydreaming romantics, believing that art is to cause happiness and be shared..NOT everything is for sale! Just my two pence...

grins and quietly scoots over to the previously banished to infamy Illusions and hands him a bowl of her specially seasoned chex mix Renapd, as you know, I agree with you most wholeheartedly on almost all you have said, as once long ago, after carefully considering what Allie was saying and a few letters in which we grew to understand one another better, I found myself agreeing with her too. Alas, once there was a plan for extremely high standards... where it is now is not my concern, though I do not by any means think the vendors are making 70 to 90 percent doodoo ;p If anything, a few of the vendors just need a fast lesson in file size and morph optimization. What is my concern is how I have chosen to develop the one thing so far FeverDreams has released for sale, and how I will go on developing any future items. We test, rigidly, with no sparing of time, exhaustion, or fretting of delays, till what we have done is as good as we can make it. If it is not as good as what I would want to buy, I will donate it out to free stuff, and maybe someone who is better than me can turn it into the masterpiece I dreamed of when I began. So far Jaager and I have confined our efforts to using what we our own selves built with our own hands, in the form of textures, morphs, etc., for Saluda, (though it will change a bit with Delilah since I have aquired the gracious and appreciated permission Tim Laubach and Paul Mason to redistribute some items if we in the end find they enhance Delilah). Others who cobble together a character every 3 days in a sweat shop like effort using morphs made by Jaager and Traveller do owe them a debt, in my personal opinion. I pay my debt to Jaager. He gets 50 percent of all sales :)

The forums were a lot more fun and a lot less threatening before all this online store stuff began to happen. When there was naught but freestuff and Zygote and a few other places I am not certain of they're names, there wasn't a fight for the pieces of pie from the vendors. Now, it seems the more stores, the more hanky panky. Renapd once made a point, once money gets involved things would never be the same, she was right, they are certainly NOT.

Ok, my two cents on the whole "our store is better" issue. K-Mart doesn't bad mouth Target, Target doesn't bad mouth Wal-Mart, Wal-Mart doesn't bad mouth Sears, etc., etc., and I see no need for the vendors within this community to behave any differently than the stores I mentioned. I honestly tend to lose respect for people who resort to that sort of tactic as it makes them sound petty, whiney and childish. Totally UNprofessional. And this is from a consumer's perspective as I have nothing for sale in ANY of the online stores. Nor do I have any complaints with any of the items I have purchased from those stores (and yes, I have bought from all of them). Bottom line - tend to YOUR business and let the competition tend to theirs. Kate

That's unfortunatly not always how it works Kate, although I admire your ethics. See I worked for a market share once and seen how this all comes to play. Some big well known place has a very lucrative locale with lots of customers, a virtual paradise just for being in the right location and having a huge customer base so big, they could almost take it all for granted that they be set for life. Ever so slowly creep the competion, they build their nests up around them little by little, even play so dirty as to lower their prices so low that the target can't possibly meet them. Or they try like heck to find something they can use to sway the customers to come shop with them instead of the target, even send out troops to snoop and scoop, yes, I have been part of a TROOP! Then it becomes a game of who can outlive, and who can outdo the other, whether by supply, price, rumours, or customer service. They will put all their effort into gaining this strategic point until the target falls and then, when won, reap the benefits of the locale and the new giant customer base and an even further monopoly for their chain. But I will say one thing, they usually TRY to buy them out first, and only if that don't work they start to play dirty pool. Guess not all places in retail do this, (thank God), but a lot do, and I believe this is why there are so many markets banding together and conglomerating to make a safety net for themselves. The more power of togetherness the less fear of a takeover. Look at Disney, even they had a similar near disaster once, not sure of the details, but I know someone sure wanted to make an end to Disney and almost got their way. Can you imagine all the poor kiddies without Disneyland around, just because some tycoon decided they wanted to make a buck from a takeover strategy? I am not certain I am clear exactly, but it does show just how far someone will go with a self motive in mind.

Oh I realize that competitors will use whatever tactics they deem necessary. My point was that the truly ethical professionals tend to draw the line at standing in the competitor's parking lot and shouting over a bullhorn that the merchandise is defective, which is basically what all this hoo-rah boils down to when you think about it. Just my take on things. Kate (retiring back to her corner with her glue gun and her flip flops and a bag of plastic flowers g)

Menhdi..you know I wasn't referring to you and Jaager! I DO know of the hours you put in your models and how much you work on them from scratch to each little detail..I'm in your beta testers list..remember? LOL! I was surprised at your last email about starting Delilah all over again for the sensible reason you mentioned! That email send my estimation for the way you work to the sky!.. It shows healty attitude towards the consumer! If other people worked with the same high standards as you two..maybe this thread wouldn't even exist!..

smile damn girl, I wish it showed a healthy attitude toward my poor sore wrist ;p I know you were not meaning us Rena, just wanted to actually say I support you in what you say, and why I have struggled to do things as well as I know how and will keep right on doing so no matter what hoopla is ever raised :) (BTW those pointers on things to do with Saluda's face made all the difference ages back... got to get you to give Delilah's face a good looksee for me soon ;p) As to Delilah, we may have some final solutions that I stumbled onto with JeffH's help on the Eve battle... but at this stage of the game it appears we are gonna do both. There are those who adore Eve, and those who adore Posette, and I have a set of identical twins (almost) from the hip up and the hip down... excepting the hip :) So Im thinking of some sort of dual release, or something, give each his preference. But that Eve... that is one feisty woman, let me tell you, she threw me totally for a loop a few times now in trying to get her to sit still and behave during corrective surgery ;p

I was going to stay out of this thread, for fear of being seen as merely making petty 'I told you so' remarks. But since renapd has spoken out about the effect of commercialisation, I shall chime in too. This whole affair is exactly the sort of situation that made me speak out so adamantly against the store happening on the 'community' forum pages. It was obvious and inevitable that the mindset of the Poser user base would change if 'for profit' activities were brought right into the heart of the user base's largest meeting place. As I said at the time, I'm all for people making money with their individual skills. But it should take place away from where people are otherwise collectively getting together and helping each other out for the general good. The two types of activity are nearly always incompatible. Let's face it; it was folk operating for commercial gain that split the community into separate antagonistic groups. Some were open about their commercialism, others weren't - but the end result was the same. The foul and wretched 'sale of the community' debacle was probably the ultimate example of the profit motives of a few shitting on the community spirit of the many from a great height. And here, the aftershocks of that travesty rumble on. Although the results aren't nearly as dramatic or catastrophic, it strikes me that the mindset behind a lot of all this 'petty commercialism' is much the same. There's something not quite right about there being items for sale in the 'community' store which are made maybe from Traveler's free morphs (added using Mr X's free program), maybe textured with Steve Cox's free program, maybe promoted via pictures benefiting from Kozaburo's free hair, maybe encrypted using Maz's free program, etc, etc, etc.................................................................... There probably aren't any store items made using all those things together, but you get the general idea. Where would any of this 'community commerce' be if it weren't for the altruistic generosity of a few clever folk contributing amazing and profoundly useful stuff for free, for everybody?! My personal standards for offering a retail item to the community would be that I made it entirely from scratch, and sold it independently of community resources. There isn't a way of separating having that standard from taking a judgemental view of what others do. So be it. It's no big deal, but it's there. I really do feel that the scales are out of balance, and that something is rotten in the heart of Denmark. What the fuck is the matter with everybody?????????????????? I got burned in the store debate (including by some in this thread), and I got burned in the R > Zygote debate. I was left feeling like there wasn't really a community any more - and I still feel that way now. I told you so.

This may surprise you coming from me, PJF... but I don't think that you sound petty in that at all. You gave a reasoned argument for your views and examples of where they were based in the reality of what has happened on occassion. What's petty about that?

Well damn PJF, I wish to heck you wouldn't just stay out of threads. I have always found your posts quite inspirational and enlightening and I wish I had half your wit and word power to state my arguments, I would be in a lot less sour a flavor of jam right now if I had even a quarter of your pizzaz and your tact and your intuitions to state my points with. You go, and please, keep going! Some of us do admire your style.