'We have tried several times to have OT forums for general discussions unrelated to art but they have not been successful so we decided after closing the last one (The Den) that we won't be having an OT forum in the future. ' Not successful?....Tell it like it is...We're all grownups here and by and large we're all smart. We all get enough spin when politicians open their mouths. The OT forums were removed for commercial reasons and for fear of some delicate souls being offended. That's fine, it's Renderosity's site and their decision but...unsuccessful, don't think so :) Right on Mon1alpha. Exactly right. C&D was wildly successful if you consider being successful drawing many members to the forum. Number of posts, etc. They didn't close it due to lack of involvement. C&D was closed, as you say, because of commercial reasons. They were uncomfortable with a forum where one could speak their mind. They were afraid that someone might get their widdle feewings hurt. Same reason they are doing this. OMG someone might actually speak their mind about a subject, can't have that for gods sake,it doesn't generate income after all. Rosity, where its all about the ............ MONEY! You know its really funny. Rosity can't handle an OT or C&D forum, but other sites seem to manage to do so quite nicely. Makes one wonder if its the OT forum that's the problem or the staff running it eh?

--It seems to me that those forums generated more traffic than the majority of the forums here.

-I suspect that the Poser forum has always gotten the lion's share of the forum traffic on this site.

Which is why I used the term majority. Obviously, the Poser and possibly Bryce forums generate most of the messages. Many of the other forums tend to be relatively unpopulated.
Please note the above use of 'many' as opposed to 'all'.

--It is a business, period. It is a business that likes to foster the image of a community, but it is in the end, a business. The forums, galleries, etc. only exist to bring people to the site in the hopes that they will go to the store and spend money. The forums and galleries are marketing tools.

-That might be true -- and personally I don't have a problem with it if this is true.

I didn't say I had a problem with it, either. It does seem that a lot of people using the various forums seem to think this is a community of some sort. That's what causes a lot of the anguish. People have unrealistic expectations because they believe the marketing hype that the 'community' is what counts and the store is a sideline.

--The reason for moving OT posts to a super-secret forum is so they can keep tabs on you. Remember, you do have permanent records here.

-Yes.....I've noticed a black van with a stylized flat-blue "RR" logo painted on its side parked near my house lately.

And a couple of guys dressed in black were connecting cables to the telephone pole at the end of the block.....I asked them who they were. They refused to say. But I could tell by their accents that they were from Nashville.

But I'm just a little too smart for them, you see.......I know what's going on here.

It's got something to do with the Illuminati -- and with the pyramid on the back of the dollar bill.

;)

Now that would just be silly.

Now that would just be silly.

Silly.....? SILLY??????

Just you wait, my friend......they are going to get you.

It's always the unwary ones that go first.

I didn't say I had a problem with it, either. It does seem that a lot of people using the various forums seem to think this is a community of some sort. That's what causes a lot of the anguish. People have unrealistic expectations because they believe the marketing hype that the 'community' is what counts and the store is a sideline.

You've got a point here --

But once again: the main discussions at City Hall tend to center around tax collections, revenues, and disbursements.

This is pretty much true in every community -- of any type.

The fact that a city's government is pre-occupied with money (which all of them are) doesn't translate into the idea that the city therefore isn't a "community".

Besides, city services have to be paid for somehow.

Trash collection, public health, public transportation....other services. The money for all of this has to come from somewhere.

You can't carry a gallery the size of the one here at Renderosity for free. For this reason -- the store is a very important aspect of this.........community.

Just as tax collection is important for my hometown. It makes everything run.

"..saying what they feel without any interference from conscious thought processes.."

Don't people do that in the forums anyway? Isn't that what this current issue is about? :D The reason I mentioned bandwidth was not to do with the actual bandwidth used by the forums (which is minimal), but more with the idea that Rendo might simply want less people logging on for no other reason than talking trash in the forums. m.

Message edited on: 04/22/2005 14:59

'You know its really funny. Rosity can't handle an OT or C&D forum, but other sites seem to manage to do so quite nicely.'

I've always wondered about that curious fact too so I'm glad you mentioned it. I don't recall anyone offering an explanation as to why that is so :)

Does anyone care to take a stab at that before this thread is locked? lol :)

because there's not an option to turn off the notfications to individual threads that seem to go forever? :]

Here......have another e-bot. ;-)

but more with the idea that Rendo might simply want less people logging on for no other reason than talking trash in the forums.

A few years ago, the local mall in my town started cracking down on the groups of roving teenagers that were spending a lot of time hanging around the hallways and the entrances of the mall........

The kids weren't buying anything. They were just hanging out. And they were driving off the little old ladies with money -- merely by being there. The mall was losing business because of them.

So, the mall started telling the teens to "move along".

Needless to say, this resulted in some problems. But the mall security people did it anyway.

And it worked. There were no more gangs of 50 shouting kids hanging around the main entrance to the mall........scaring off others.

Sure, sending the kids on their way cost the mall a few T-Shirt sales here and there.....but the people with real money now felt more comfortable doing business there.

If I were a business owner, then I'd understand the reason.

Wow XENOPHONZ might actually have hit the nail on the head for once. Rosity is a MALL. you are here to BUY stuff, and post pictures of the stuff you bought so others might BUY stuff too. Period. Any similarity between Rosity and a Community is coincidental. If you remember this simple fact, then you can do as Xeno does, hide your head in the sand and JUST BUY STUFF. Admin treats you unfairly? Forget it, just buy stuff. Merchants being screwed over? No worries, just buy stuff. Contests judged unfairly? Cool, time to buy stuff. Welcome to Romart, where you can buy stuff and then MOVE ALONG, no community to see here.

where you can buy stuff and then MOVE ALONG, no community to see here.

If one is willing to grant all of your underlying assumptions, then you might have a point. Maybe.

But seeing as how those underlying assumptions (unfair treatment, etc.) are each debatable on a case-by-case basis.....

.....such blanket assertions simply don't hold together in every instance.

One needs to see the trees. Then one can understand the depth of the forest.

As for "buying stuff" -- it's fun.

And that's what this is all about. I suspect that this is true for at least 90% of us.

The 90% of us that don't take things too seriously.

As they say -- life's too short to spend it in a constant state of self-righteous outrage.

BTW - the kids at the mall yelled a lot when they were told to get out of the way -- so that others could do their business in peace. I feel certain that -- by their way of calculating -- the ability to gather in large groups and shout at the entrances of the mall constituted some sort of inviolate "right".

As a merchant in this `mall', I don't see the slightest comparison with rowdy teens in real-world malls. Shoppers here don't have to visit forums, and don't have to click on the links to the threads. It's all compartmentalised, and the forums aren't preventing buyers getting to where they want to go. This isn't a big issue with me; I just don't understand it :)

Exactly pearce. Good point. I also don't see a big banner outside a RW mall calling it an "Aritist Community" or a "community" of any kind. A RW mall is JUST a business. So is Rosity it would seem. And thats cool. Just don't feed me this BS about it being a "community" or it "being about the art". Bullshit! Strike the word "community" from the header, quit spraying the BS around about community and art and just tell the truth. Rosity is ONLY a store. Only a mall. Welcome to Romart.

This isn't a big issue with me

Nor is it with me particularly.

But, yes....there is a comparison with the teens.

The overall atmosphere of a given website can't be compartmentalized. What happens in the Poser forum ends up affecting what happens in the marketplace. Everything is connected together.

If I am really in a mood to rumble, then there are places that I can go to for that. These days -- I'm not in that kind of a mood very often.

When I am in the mood to chill, then there are places that I can go to for that. And some good people there, too.

So -- no OT posts here? I'm not too worried about it.

This isn't something that I'll care about (or that will even be likely to cross my mind) as I am eating in a nice restaurant later on this evening. Message edited on: 04/22/2005 17:23

Actually, it doesn't much affect me either. If I wanted an intelligent conversation about an OT subject, this would be the last place I'd search for one.If ignorance is bliss, this must be heaven. I just hate the hypocrisy of calling this a community. It isn't.

"The overall atmosphere of a given website can't be compartmentalized. What happens in the Poser forum ends up affecting what happens in the marketplace. Everything is connected together." Then why doesn't it seem to be a problem at other sites? I still haven't heard a reasonable explination as to why other sites maintain an OT forum while Rosity has so much trouble doing so.

This is about the 65th Thread to this simple Statement...it is My 2nd....and last...some have commented 17 times...and the ebots keep coming. My Personal View....is that the Community Forum is a place to avoid...then all this dribble and endless ebots, will also be avoided.

Spirit, maybe it's a problem here and not elsewhere because the biggest site attracts the biggest troublemakers, the nastiest rabble-rousers. They'd still like to cause trouble at the other sites, but they are at their worst on the largest stage they can find. They want as many people as possible to suffer through their harangues, so they go where they get the most bang for their buck. P.S. Ted, sorry about this e-bot and the next 30 or 40 they send your way.

Really guys nothing has changed in this forum. This was a "reminder" not a change. The cc forum has always been designed for what is listed above in the header and it was beginning to get buried in OT post and not being used for its actual intent. Simple. As far as the OT forums we have tried to have here, they weren't successful because there were too many members that couldn't and wouldn't have civil discussions without turning it in to a major personal attack on someone else. This caused lots of problems for the mods trying to keep some kind of civil order in there and it turned all their energy into burn out and it got to the point that no one wanted to deal with that forum. There are so many debate forums people can go to discuss religion, politics, that type of thing and they are made for that type of discussion, this is an art community. Thanks Stacey

So why not just have an OT and make it part of the header that religious or political subjects will not be discussed? If such a subject arises, that is the one that is moved into the private forum? It sounds as though you are trying to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Even people in museums talk about other things than just the art on the wall.

BTW Stacey, while it is an art community, art is derived from all sorts of subjects and so being as such, art is related to just about everything. You can't really expect artists to have no opinions or no discussion of any other subject than art. If you limit speech in the forums, you'll wind up with it in the galleries and that will not go well...

Just a thought...

"The cc forum has always been designed for what is listed above in the header and it was beginning to get buried in OT post and not being used for its actual intent. Simple." And if you guys hadn't done away with the OT forums these type discussions would be taking place there. Since you did do away with them, now you have cross over and OT posts everywhere.You thought you were saving yourselves some work and trouble but ultimately caused more work and trouble. "they weren't successful because there were too many members that couldn't and wouldn't have civil discussions without turning it in to a major personal attack on someone else. This caused lots of problems for the mods trying to keep some kind of civil order in there and it turned all their energy into burn out and it got to the point that no one wanted to deal with that forum. " Doesn't stop other sites. They make rules and enforce them. They encourage members to do the same. Or in some cases they just make it wide open and state up front that when you enter the OT forum you do so at your own risk. Either have thick skin or don't enter. Guess that's too rough for such a sensitive place like Rosity :) Too many with thin skin. Problem is if there is no other place to talk OT, the threads will crop up everywhere as is happening now. Something that was predicted by many when C&D was foolishly done away with. No big deal, as you say there are many other forums on the web to talk to your friends, discuss topics, poke fun at Romart, etc :)

If forums are going to be reorganized... Some of the OT conversations have to do with hardware: "What kind of graphics card should I buy" "Is this chipset really faster?" "Are LCD monitors any good for x?" and putting those issues into a separate Forum might benefit everybody who uses a computer. The comparative speed tests can be kept there, too, so newbies know what the benchmarks are. Requirements or problems with certain cards or drivers could be gathered here as well. Another group of OT posts concerns the latest worm, virus, trojan, phishing scam, or other hazard. Having a Forum where people could post an alert would again benefit all members. A third group of OT posts concerns entertainment or cultural events: a museum show with costumes or movie using CGI or TV series which inspires the character creators or documentary with historical recreations. Some of these may even have had the involvement of people here. Since inspiration is a necessary part of the creative process, there does need to be a way to share announcements or reviews. In lieu of completely eliminating all posts not dealing with art for art's sake, or the specific tools used to create it, let's determine which of the OT posts are of value and establish a framework for them. Carolly

You should get over the notion that Renderosity is a community. It is a business, period. It is a business that likes to foster the image of a community, but it is in the end, a business. The forums, galleries, etc. only exist to bring people to the site in the hopes that they will go to the store and spend money. The forums and galleries are marketing tools. I agree. I don't actually care about being able to carry on off-topic discussions here, by the way. I have other places where I can do that. I just wish Renderosity would stop the pretense of being a community for artists, when it really isn't. If you're a wolf, don't wear sheep's clothing, and if you're a capitalist business, don't claim to be a commune, that's all. bonni

that would be in your opinion... personally i have met many artists here from around the world & shared a great deal in the galleries & smaller forums & if i'm being naive so be it... i probably have little room to talk since i don't "spend $ at the mall" & i'm grateful RR has such a diverse selection of computer art of all levels... you get what you put into the site & vice a versa... i really have little time left for an OT forum... but i do believe this is still a "community" ...shame it has to be dragged through the dirt so often...

Actually, unlike the reasoning with closing C&D, the VT, and OT forums, I don't have a problem with this "change". The Community forum - what used to be the Staff Contact and the Communit Ideas [if I still recall the names correctly after 3+ years] forums before they were smerged really is for site business. Contacting the admin in relation to site issues/problems that don't need to be handled in email or IM, making suggestions for the site, staff announcements, new features posts, whatever.

Not that a great deal of site business goes on here of late, but when it does, it shouldn't get buried by "My Hamster got runover!" threads. ;]

There's not a real problem with the staff saying "use it for the described purpose please", any more than it would be if I moved an OT thread from Animotions site contact to General Discussions. Np.

Only problem is that there's no place for unrelated chitchat threads, hence the spillover.

My snicker at Stacey on the mods thing was in relation to a very recent related off site conversation we'd had on that subject - she got the refference and the joke. ;) Nuthin' more.

You're going to keep having this problem and this spillover until ya'll learn how to manage a General Discussions forum... because people are going to chitchat about nothing or anything in particular, and they're not going to bother with where they are at the time if there's no other place here to do it. May as well get used to it, it's going to happen, and figure out how to have a place for it.

Else your mods are going to be continually running around stamping out OT posts where ever they crop up, instead of doing their real jobs. Bank on it.

Look at it as a part of "managing" a "community". snicker Have fun. ;]

"In lieu of completely eliminating all posts not dealing with art for art's sake, or the specific tools used to create it, let's determine which of the OT posts are of value and establish a framework for them." - hauksdottir

What Carolly said.

[Oh don't die of shock, Carolly - I actually do agree with you on rare occassions. ;)]

• Xeno:

They do keep a permanent record of warnings, # of warnings, competing site admins, bannings, vendor Y/N?, contacts with members: tagged to the profile for mods/admins refference.

This has been stated by staff in thread responses within this forum and others. Do a search. Look it up.

Now, Yewston's crack that they're moving the threads to a private forum just so they can reffernce who was in them/posted them is probably projectng that a bit far....

Maybe. ;]

What a lot of folks forget is that off topics or just general chit chats among similar people can inspire, work the mind, bring on ideas, share thoughts that lead to creativity, entertain possibilities, excercise the imaginations, no matter how absurd or amazing, good or bad, innovations, inventiveness, creativeness and ideas can and do prosper from the most oddest and most realistic situations. That commonly happens with whims, and sometimes when and where we least likely look. The artistic value of serendipity is enhanced by community spirit and the wealthiest resource of all, ourselves, which means sharing a lot more than just regimented thoughts and planned out notions. The love for art emerges from all the resources and wealth of products and potentials here, but the flirting and romance of a community forum relaxed with general comfort and hanging out leads us to want to do a lot more.

that would be in your opinion... I suppose I could try using other people's opinions, but that usually doesn't work out as well as using my own. ;-P bonni

"I suppose I could try using other people's opinions, but that usually doesn't work out as well as using my own." Oh come on Bonni, use my opinion, use my opinion! Better yet, use Legumes opinion :)

IB wrote : "You're going to keep having this problem and this spillover until ya'll learn how to manage a General Discussions forum... because people are going to chitchat about nothing or anything in particular, and they're not going to bother with where they are at the time if there's no other place here to do it. May as well get used to it, it's going to happen, and figure out how to have a place for it." Yep, very tempting to say we told them so isn't it?

ooh ooh ooh! Use Legume's opinion Bonni! Use Legume's opinion!

This isn't something that I'll care about (or that will even be likely to cross my mind) as I am eating in a nice restaurant later on this evening.

Actually, things didn't work out the way that I had planned.

Due to unforseen events (like my wife working in her office until 10:00PM - with me hanging around badgering her: "let's go......!" While at the same time some older ladies that were in the building insisted that my wife stay, and that she take a look at their 35-year-old wedding albums........)

So I ended up going through the drive-through at Wendy's. At around 10:40 PM. For supper.

I ordered a Chicken BLT Salad and a Sour Cream & Chives Baked Potato.

Ah, life........the joy of it all.

Actually, it's not too bad.........even when it's totally OT to this thread.

At least I was partially right: during all of these proceedings, I didn't spend any time worrying over my inability to make OT postings in the Community Center Forum at Renderosity.

I suppose I could try using other people's opinions, but that usually doesn't work out as well as using my own.

To coin a phrase: everyone is entitled to my opinion.

Especially after getting take-home from Wendy's at nearly 11:00 on a Friday night.

Ironic that this has turned out to be the most CIVIL "OT" Forum I've seen!!

I think the most important Reason why the Mods removed the"OT" from rendo...--->The moderators are employees of renderosity!!<-- So no matter how much, or how badly You may want an "OT" the simple fact is that NOONE will go against thier employer's orders, unless They want to go lookin' for thier next job at Burger King(TM)! (given the present economic state that our country's in!) And in THAT I cannot find any fault on WHATEVER desisions the mods HAVE to follow! Because it would mean thier Jobs, or demotions, or any other disciplinary actoin! So don't blame hash out at the mods, rather take Your concerns to the Admin! I'm not "Siding" with anyone,nor do I agree with all of the Admin's decisions...Just pointing out an inevabillity while dealing with corporations, and thier sites. While in the beginning rendo was an exclusive place for art without boundries {Reasonable of course!} It's own popularity has seen it grow, and with that growth RESTRICTIONS were put in place to better safegaurd it's own survival. However, TOO many restrictions will ultimately become it's demise...It's the same example as a "Public forum" going "Private" Sure the riff-raff,and chaotic element are reduced, but at the cost of "New blood" resulting in the same 250 people seeing the smae thing until bordom, and apathy sets in resulting in a private group with 250 members ALL of which are inactive! I'm seeing a simmilar patern here as well.. But who knows, things change! (^_-)

Use Legume's opinion Bonni! Use Legume's opinion! I don't think it'd fit. ;-) I MIGHT use IronBear's though. Lots of his fit me okay. ;-) bonni

"So I ended up going through the drive-through at Wendy's. At around 10:40 PM. For supper." Hungry for finger food?

Attached Link: http://apnews.myway.com/article/20050422/D89KN9GG0.html

Better watch out. They arrest people that claim to have found fingers in their chili.

Actually, I found a chicken comb.........

"Actually, I found a chicken comb........." LOL! I did have one experience with foreign objects in food. When I lived in Phoenix, there was a Mexican burrito joint a few blocks from work. I'd eaten there on several occasions as the food was decent for three or four dollars. The last time I ate there I ordered a chicken burrito, brought it back to the office and proceeded to munch. About three bites in, I glanced down at the burrito and noticed a brownish oval object buried within the lettuce. Upon further examination I found three more brownish oval objects and also discovered they had legs. They were young cockroaches, about 3/8 of an inch long. I immediately turned to the wastebasket at my desk and hurled, not in a quiet manner I might add, which drew immediate looks of horror from a few of my co-workers who had also gone there for lunch. I gathered up the remainder of my chicken burrito AND the wastebasket and returned there to display the burrito, emptied the contents of my wastebasket on their counter, and in a booming voice shouted, "I FOUND THREE $%&#;ING COCKROACHES IN MY CHICKEN BURRITO!" There were perhaps fifteen people in the establishment eating, chattering away about whatever people chat about during lunch. Needless to say, the place became instantly silent. I didnt ask for my money back. I didnt have to. The shock Id instilled upon the establishment was payment enough. Those in line waiting to order vacated the premises immediately.

LMAO! From the article...

"Ayala, 39, claimed she bit down on the well-manicured, 1 1/2-inch finger in a mouthful of her steamy chili on March 22 in San Jose."

Well-manicured! What a hoot! LOL! At least the fingernail wasn't dirty. Has anyone bothered to check her immediate family members for a full set of digits?

"I didnt ask for my money back. I didnt have to. The shock Id instilled upon the establishment was payment enough. Those in line waiting to order vacated the premises immediately." RE: You have to be the most honest person alive! Sorta puts those buger king whiners to shame with thier silly lawsuits! I tip My rootbeer to ya!

Hello, Let's please keep this thread on the subject of the post. Thank you, Stacey Community Manager

looks like this one's off to the secret forum lads and lassies!

Something does not add up here. First OT posts were banned, the reason: not enough resources/ site using too many resources for them. Yet now, rather than just delete an OT post or worse yet ignore them and allow it to sit here in the forums, we are going too expend some more resources, and move them, and save them in a private admin only place rather than delete them. Any admins care to explain?

Hmmmmm...this is a 'really' long thread..veering off in all sorts of directions..and has nothing to do with art, why is it still here? ~Jumpy, the disgruntled

~Jumpy, the disgruntled LOL!! Guess I'll call myself Lorna Boobs, because mine keep falling outta my bra when I get to laughing too much! Maybe I should go down one size.

ROTFL! {actually, Jumpy is in a better mood tonight...and thats a very good thing :)}

Message edited on: 04/27/2005 02:53