Wolf: ROTFLMAO! Damn... and you accuse me of stumbling into a thornbush? ;) BTW folks, in the cases shown thus far, if a product shows blatant flaws right there in the promo render, there's really no need to waste the money, now is there? Let's pull up that woman with her textured-on vagina slid-up completely out of place... why on Earth would I have to waste my money on it when I can see the problem right there in the promo render? Now, ask yourself what folks who have genkits or genital morphs on their figures are supposed to do with that, or what folks who want to spend at least a little bit of time on making a realistic-looking figure are supposed to do w/ it... How about the second female figure...why on earth would I have to purchase a product advertised as a "glamor girl", when the promo render shows breast morphs don't even look human, and the eyes look 40x larger than any normal human eyes should (and for a non-anime human figure built to "high quality standards"? WTF, 'mano?) ...the third item is a rather common complaint, and again, the promo renders show it. I can certainly understand a lot of bruised egoes in that department though, because it's so damned common to do it. Now MAB @ the DAZ fora brought up a very good point... but in her case, she actually 1) took the time and paid attention to re-coloring each texture, and 2) didn't try to pawn the lot off onto the public as a set of different textures. In these three exceptional cases, it's rather obvious, and while the third is certainly open for debate, the first two really ought to get a tester or two reprimanded. And don't you worry... there's lots of other sites where similar conditions exist. My job is to verify which is which now (and which are not), and then go about tearing them down in a way that, for lack of a better term, makes sense. "That may or may not have been your intention, and I can't and won't speak for you and/or read your mind." Well, in case you're curious, everything is going as I expected it would thus far. A lot of the lesser merchants got defensive and shrill, mods got nervous in degrees, some folks (including some merchants) cheered, other folks contributed wonderful ideas as to how to go about this whole thing, and Sean got to nurse his grudge a little (evil grin)... (that last part was just bonus, because yes, I'm a noecon asshole and it drives him nuts. but I'll stop that tangent before it gets too far off course... :) ) Most importantly though, I got something even more valuable out of the whole thing: I get to gauge customer dissatisfaction, and accumulate a mountain of raw material from which to do something about it. Everyone who got to read the discussions got something valuable too, though I'm loathe to say it because the term is so damned abused: raised awareness of a problem that everyone knows about, but no one really wants to talk about. Now, I get the task of actually doing something with it all.It'll be work, but I think it'll be fun... and hopefully it'll be useful. One final thing, though: Morriganshadow wrote "THIS is the only community where Penguinisto's post would have turned into a "slam the merchants" fest, and fast." ...you know? I honestly don't say this out of malice, but it really needs to be said: It's pretty sad when the PTB actually have that large of a credible fear of complaints against their own brokered products. Maybe instead of cringing whenever someone brings it up, perhaps a bit of overhauling QA is in order? /P

Cross-posted with Pengy, but in essence two people saying the same thing. Both coming from different propspectives.

We are not afraid of or fear complaint's against our merchants we are respectful of our members. I am not a merchant here but I am a member here. As Clint has stated we have our own review of products here for just this perpose and lets face it not everyone likes the same things. There are beginners in all area's of this community and how are they going to learn with out the help of others. But to blatently slam their products in public is not the way to go. Maybe the product doesn't meet your standards but it meets my needs who is to say it is not to standard. If there is a flaw then the merchant should be notified to be given the chance to fix it. If the merchant doesn't respond then you go to the next step in the ladder which is the marketplace. There are steps to follow in all walks of life believe me I know I work for one of the largest retailers in the world and I have to deal with irate customers everyday. SndCastie Community Admin

Just to clarify....I'm only a coordinator. I have nothing to do with the MP or Q&A here. All I can say is, it was going downhill, and fast. In other communities, there was more discussion before laying into merchants. I can understand frustration, but like it's been said before, if you don't like the promo render, don't buy the product. If the product is "crap" after you've bought it, contact the merchant or the Store Staff. But, like I said, if you're wanting to do a true review of items, more power to you, and Good Luck. MS

"My job is to verify which is which now (and which are not), and then go about tearing them down in a way that, for lack of a better term, makes sense." your job? I gotta ask. who gave you the job? a burning bush? a voice from above? the pope? a face in your coffee? a memo thrown from a woman in a lake? royal appointment? a conclave of wizards? order of the roman emperor cesar? ......?

Thank you Natolii :-) What really gets me, is that the major percentage of my sales are from my scene props, which sell very, very well. I have received countless compliments on how easy they are to use, how realistic the various effects, and how detailed the textures.

Bottom line is, this one product is not going to make me or break me. I have a brand new grandbaby and a son with serious medical problems right now as well as working 100+ hours a week. I don't have time for this nonsense. Easiest thing for me to do is delete the darn thing and be done with it, even though I defend my right to make it.

Yea I have worked for years to build a reputation in the online stores, and yes, this burns me up to be attacked for no reason other than I did a "toonish" set... but honestly, I cannot afford to have my reputation smeared. This is my living, and what feeds my kids, so being attacked IS hurtful, and following these threads is taking away from much more important things that need doing...

I see the crap out there, and defend anyones right to make whatever they choose. But what may be crap to one person could be just what another is looking for. I look at the top selling stuff at all the stores and sometimes for the life of me cannot see where it holds it's appeal, but then that may just not be my "thing"... it doesn't mean that product is lousey just becuase it does not happen to appeal to my tastes. The job of the testers is to be sure the product is functional and without errors, and most importantly that the promos are a TRUE representation of what the product is. What you see is what you get. If it is, then people can see what they are being offered, and if they can see what the product is, then where is it hurting anyone? If they do not like it, they do not have to buy. Everyone has to start somewhere, and no merchants first products will ever be what they will a year or 2 down the line, and when they do not sell this or that product, they learn as they go on what people are looking for.

The way you are poking fun at people is not constructive, it is not helpful... it is simply for your enjoyment and the entertainment of those who enjoy reading your blathering, but I can tell you, for as many people as you may have gained from your recent topic, you have lost as many to. We could use a good consumer advocate, but a little tact and a little heart would go a long way towards your achieving that.

So TJ... I am out of it, you won, does that make you feel good? I hope so, because the one thing I will sacrafice myself for is to help someone else feel better, or have a better day, so I hope yours is a wonderful one... remember though, what goes around comes around... and you just never know who is going to be doing the steering.

"Name the Names
any of his sources who do not have agendas
wont have any thing to worry about right :-)" - wolf359

Wrong. ;)

They'll have to worry about people like you asking and speculating and insinuating on who they voted for and what their motivations are and wether they're egologically correct or a nazi or gasp! a Republican!... because you'll do it in their inbox and IM's just like you're doing it here without knowing.

And not everyone has the brass to say what they think straight up and not sweat the blogroaches, unlike me.

And they'll have to worry about getting their inboxes full of extremely vile hatemail like several free stuff creators I know have.. all from dear sweet pillar of the fucking community merchants who hate freebie makers "stealing munee out of the mouths of their poor starving rugrats".

Think it don't happen? You're a bigger twit than I'm taking you for right now if you do. Tell me it doesn't happen - and I'll call you a liar straight up. There's freebie providers that will back that with their own annecdotes.

Funny... I don't get many of those directly. Maybe it's my way of dealing with them?

Got an idea: there's more wide open venues where this same discussion is going on. Step on over. Right now you're being a prime example of why customers don't post their grievances with vendors openly.

"The fact that you had to go on a highly immature rant and question someone as you have indicates to me you are just spoiling for a fight." - Natolii

He ain't. He's spouting hot air in a venue where he knows a mod will bail him out if someone bites back. ;)

An' he were spoilin' for an even fight, he'd be in a different neigborhood.

"Iron Bear & Questor
personal attacks on Me may make you feel smarter/clever
I suppose :-)" - wolf359

Just makes me feel old and tired, actually. All I have to do is read your posts to feel smarter and cleverer - insulting you merely relieves the deadly tedium of knowing that you just stole two minutes of my life I'll never get back... and for no return in value.

Nice try though.

"Sure, not everyone has freebies. But, last I checked, it's not a prerequisite. " - MorriganShadow

No offense Morrigan - you seem to be one of the most level headed and decent of the breed here: but maybe there should be a prerequisite. And I'd say the same an' I were wearing my admin's hat. I have before.

Alright, I know this topic is delicate and emotions may be running high but please steer clear of the personal attacks and just focus on the discussion at hand. Can we not make our points without resorting to personally attacking the people thats opinion is different than our own? If the personal attacks continue and this can't be discussed in a civil manner then warnings will be issued and the thread will be locked. Thanks, Stacey Community Manager

"So TJ... I am out of it, you won, does that make you feel good?" Doesn't make me feel anything, really... My intent is bigger than to simply "feel good." /P

Attached Link: http://www.rathergood.com/laibach/

Ironbear wrote: "Vile slanderer! I do not stomp kittens. Forumites, on the other hand... ;) " But IB, most of the forumites are kittens posing as lions, yes?

Attached Link: http://www.sitcomsonline.com/hellolarry.html

This one will pass, too.

They all do eventually.

To quote myself (I just love quoting myself -- I love to hear myself talk as much as the next guy):

Like I said in the other thread -- in a situation like that: people will choose up sides with their buddies.....and then they will go to bloody war with each other.

I just love being proven right so often -- it's a dirty job, but somebody's got to do it.

So you're going ahead with this, Peng?

I am looking forward to reading your reviews. And to reading the responses to those same reviews.

You usually do your commentaries fairly. Do the product critiques fairly, and you might win over a few.

But I'd advise against flame-bait type editorials.

But I don't even work here, so have fun!

Perhaps I should start my own website, and call it "windy".

Has anyone around here ever heard of a really bad late 70's television sitcom called Hello, Larry?

Meadowlark Lemon of Harlem Globetrotters fame was on the show --

-- it was selected as the 12th worst TV show of all time by TV Guide magazine.

It's worth mentioning. And it's a very important issue in the grand scheme of things.

Follow the link -- they've even got .mp3's of the show's theme song!

But IB, most of the forumites are kittens posing as lions, yes?

How true, how true.

Personally, I find myself to be quite intimidated by the white-on-black (my chosen color scheme here at RR) letters on my CRT screen here at the office.

meow

......sorry......the tortoiseshell Office Cat (OC for short) at my feet is looking for attention again.......

......she knows how to get it, too.

BTW - Tigers are actually bigger and stronger than lions. And another bit of trivia: whenever a lion and a tiger meet with one another in the wild, they will fight to the death.

wolf - I'm in the same boat as Natolli you know, I have tested products, and not just on 3DA - so when I was told I was wrong and a product with weld issues was NOT broken I knew better. I can't even begin to tell you how many products I rejected where the answer I received was "well it's already selling at Renderosity". Yea? So what? If you had read what I wrote above you'd see what happens with some brokers in regards to a customer going public - I was attacked, those who bought the package to check it were attacked or derided, by both the merchant and a staff member (in my case). This isn't about people buying things they thing are imperfect, it's about people buying things that are not working correctly. Sure some products may look like "a crack whore" and some merchants should definitely try providing free stuff and learning how their programs work before tryig to make a quick buck, but that's my personal opinion and I simply won't buy from them - as long as the promo is accurate. In regards to the feedback system, that is all well and good, but if a request is proferred I'll bet the negative feedbck is removed right? So a customer has 2 choices, get their money back or leave a legitimate review to warn others? Gee I think most will choose a refund which means the negative ro "accurate" comments regarding issues will disappear - not a very fair system. In reality very few merchants make enough $$ doing this to "feed their family" I know top selling merchants who can't make that claim consistently. I may occasionally reap in more than enough to pay my mortgage and groceries (and last year for a trip to VA Beach at a 5 star resort for a weekend), but it's not consistent enough to claim it feeds my family. My point, if you can't afford to get bad feedback or have a product publically discussed in a negative amnner than you should be very careful in regards to promotional wording and technical issues. As for a "consumer report" or evena listing of personal opinions regarding the look of a product - guess what? It's called free speech and critics and reviewers have been doing it for years. Don't like it, then don't submit a product and don't read the report. Seems simple enough to me.

Lions Africa... Tigers Asia and the Indian sub continent... or is there a species i'm missing? Oh ok, it's just a bookmark, no need to answer but it's better than the '.' Jack

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>"They'll have to worry about people like you asking and speculating and insinuating on who they voted for and what their motivations are and wether they're egologically correct or a nazi or gasp! a Republican!... because you'll do it in their inbox and IM's just like you're doing it here without knowing."<<<< ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Actually I am an unrepentant supply side conservative. go figure I have had unsatisified customers who purchased My Custom BVH files and posted negative reviews on my store page. since these individual clearly identified themselves each time I was able to contact them privately and: 1) OFFER to adjust the BVH files they purchased 2) create new alternate BVH file for their needs 3) offer them any BVH file they wanted from my rather vast private collection until they were satisified. all for FREE of course. that how I handle complaints if you dont believe me(not that i care) just ask "bigTim" or "terrymitchell and I thank these buyers for coming to me for a solution rather than submit my name anonymously to some web bloggers shit list :-) >>>And not everyone has the brass to say what they think straight up and not sweat the blogroaches, unlike me<<< yes im sure we are all very proud of your "internet courage" particularly us military verterans. >>>And they'll have to worry about getting their inboxes full of extremely vile hatemail like several free stuff creators I know have.. all from dear sweet pillar of the fucking community merchants who hate freebie makers "stealing munee out of the mouths of their poor starving rugrats"<<< Think it don't happen? You're a bigger twit than I'm taking you for right now if you do. Tell me it doesn't happen<<<<<<< Hmm... much anger i sense in you Padwan Unfortunately however not only does this happen but its worse than even you might be aware, recently one new merchant was warned not to release a competing product or their "life would be made a living hell" truly sad :-( which is why Peng will be attacked either way unless he like, Natolli obtains and tests the products himself in the light of day >>> Right now you're being a prime example of why customers don't post their grievances with vendors openly<<< and your explicable appearances in these "Death to rosity type threads are a prime example of why Capt Piccard, a human, was chosen to be the arbitor of succession after the poisoning death of chancelor T'empec "Because no Klingon could be trusted." Agendas, Agendas,Agendas,Agendas...........

Attached Link: http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/067152.php

In natural conditions tigers and lions generally do not inhabit the same territory - the two species coexist in the wild today only in the Gir forest of India although their respective ranges used to intersect in Persia, China and perhaps also Beringia.

There is also another -- much larger creature called a "liger" -- 900 lbs or so.

Ligers result from the artificial interbreeding of lions and tigers together.

I haven't seen much of that happening lately.......artificial or otherwise.

In natural conditions tigers and lions generally do not inhabit the same territory Another truth. Good thing, too.

Given the level of animosity in this thread, it's pretty clear to me that product reviews are gonna be tinged, or warped, by raw emotion and other personal problems not associated with the product itself. It's no longer just a question of a defective product (I know, I have tested a few myself, and they start out almost unusable). It's now clearly a question of politics, of who's buddies with whom, and any ethical considerations are out the window quicker than a nude fairy on crystal meth. I foresee a situation where some other guy (not Peng, who is honest) sets up a website for product reviews, anonymous of course to prevent the reviewers from being attacked the same way the merchants are. "Jeez, how do I get of the reviewer's shit list?", a merchant might wonder. Through a series of devious back-alley e-mails and communiqu (anonymous of course, no IMs to avoid tipping off the admins), the word on the street makes it clear that the reviewer expects merchandise or other favors from recalcitrant merchants, otherwise the ridicule, the name-calling, the political attacks, the gossip will continue. But eventually things get out of hand, the reviewer gets too drunk with what he perceives as his own "power", there are accusations of fraud, payola, libel, etc., and the reviewer's site is shut down by an ISP that has been hammered by the whole scandal for way too long.

Thanks for the info on the big cats. Hmmm wonder if i can mate my cat with something that doesn't destroy furniture. Anyway. From my pov it's pretty obvious why the ptb have tried to ditch this subject (merchants not cats). The merchants, no matter how... er... er... 'amateurish', make money. They are a commodity and Rosity will protect them because they make money for the site. Fair enough, but at the cost of the poor old buyer who gets the shitty end of the stick again. Personally, I like the idea of merchants having to do a 'freebie apprenticship' before being allowed to sell in the marketplace. Jack (screw the typos)

Well said mateo ;-)

mateo - I reviewed products for years - I was never accused of being anything less than honest, although there were the occasionall pissed off merchants. Admittedly I always gave the creator the chance to respond to negative or neutral reviews and if they updated or repaired a product I made mention of that. As for a site being shut down - well there's a law suit waiting to happen. To shut a site down the site owner must clearly violate the TOS of their provider and posting product reviews is not a violation of any TOS I've ever seen. Sure people may be unhappy about it - but shutting down a site with that content would more than likely require a court order that actually finds the site owner to be guilty of an illegal action.

It's now clearly a question of politics, of who's buddies with whom

Yep.

As is usual in this community.

Note to all merchants:

I am now an Official Product Reviewer. I'll get a shingle for my office door painted up next week sometime.

IM me for the e-mail where you can send your free products for evaluation.

Hint: the free-er, the better........in more ways than one.

;-)

well there's a law suit waiting to happen

All the way around -- if you know what I mean.

Although the average merchant probably doesn't have the bucks to make it a viable option -- on the other hand: websites might.

It's something else to think about and to consider. Carefully.

I do know what you mean, but that is only a consideration honestly if the reveiwer is being less thanhonest in theri presentation.

An honest reviewer who is looking at something from a technical POV or even someone who states "this product was so damned ugly in my personal opinion that I couldn't bring myself to buy it evenf or testing" they are not libelous comments.

But to state as a fact that a product has flaws and faults that are not present, well that would certainly be asking for trouble.

that is only a consideration honestly if the reveiwer is being less thanhonest in theri presentation. A court action doesn't have to be won in order to be a major pain. And a major expense. Once again: just a thought.

Particularly if the pending actions begin to multiply......from various sources. If someone is going to go down this road, then they need to seriously consider the places that it might lead. And then decide whether or not it's worth it in the first place. It wouldn't be worth it to me. But of course: I can only speak for myself.

When you consider a number of Beta Testers and Q&A do it for free anyhow... The difference is, I not only make sure my merchants have a quality product out of the gate, I am also one of the few that can say Yay or Nay to a product entering a store. The difference is, I have someone that will back me up if I think a product needs work ::salutes Ironbear with a grin::. I always back my findings with renders. So instead of insulting people, how about suggestions to make this work? Two suggestions: A best of the best style (the exact oppposite) Or A submission form where people can fill in a questionaire based on their experiences with the products. Again staying anonymous, but it is also something that can be investigated and followed up on. A report card if you will.

So the consensus is, the flood of crap in the marketplace is a GOOD thing? Merchants, no matter their skill level are above reproach? Jesus, merchants are just business people. Selling their wares. Period. They are not some demi-gods to be worshiped. I recently went looking for some skins for V3. Had to wade through page after page after page of the same tripe before finding an honest to goodness texture worth my cash.Most of the stuff I wouldn't download for free! All you vendors that DO produce good work and HAVE the talent to make a good product should jump at the chance to change that if possible. Your work is being lost due to the overwhelming flood of tripe. ITs become almost impossible to find the silk purse amongst the multitude of sows ears. I believe for some reason there is a rush to market. That wasn't always the case. Some here and elsewhere can't wait to upload a product no matter how amaturish or flawed. Used to be an up and coming product developer would do freestuff till they had honed their talent enough to hit the marketplace with their wares. No longer. As a customer, I would value a marketplace where QUALITY was the rule, not the exception. Caveat Emptor.

Spiritbro77, Haven't you ever been to the public market? The Renderosity store is not really a "store". It's a public market. The Admins. have told us that from day one. DAZ is a "Store". Stop trying to treat it as a store. It was never supposed to be a "Store". You can't apply the same rules to a market place that you do to a store. Many people love to go bargain hunting. If you don't like flea markets. Then don't shop there. Don't get pissed at the fleas. ;-)

um....i was going to avoid posting to this thread, but.... I'm not going to comment on the rights or wrongs of puting forward an opinion. The texture/hair products obviously show what they are in the promo renders, and unless one is using a braille monitor, that much is obvious to the buyer before purchase. giggles at ExtremeThemes addition to product text. In all the highlighted products, the customer can obviously see what they are getting from the promo images. Therefore, this isnt a case of false advertising. And I don't see how the claim that they "don't work as advertised" can be applied. They are being advertised in such a way that the way they work is blatantly obvious. As for Merchant Resource packs, well, a lot of folks know how I feel about them, about the uniformity of products that ensue from everyone using the same packs, in the same way, the copyright issues, and the over-saturation of the market this has caused. So, I'm not going there again. With regards to freestuff. I've always made freestuff, and quite often I'll put out a component of a current store pack, as this gives a potential customer a taste of the product BEFORE they part with their bucks. Now, maybe it's easier for me, because I create props, but I feel freestuff is pretty much an essential requirement. Admitted, my freestuff additions have been sparse of late, but then, in the last year and a half I've been divorced, lost my family and home, moved to another country and been unable to upload stuff to my website. (The last is my own fault for taking a mediocre free hosting deal). As for testing standards, while Renderosity does indeed do its best to ensure that all products work as advertised, the other stores I broker at have higher standards. Though I'm not entirely sure where this perception that DAZ have ultra high standards comes from. There is very little there that I would part with the amount of $ theyre asking for it. They have differant criteria, for sure, but not necessarily higher standards than some of the sites I currently broker through.

In all the bickering and fighting that this thread has engendered, one very important thing has been overlooked - the completely gratuitous slam against 'New York City Crack Whores'.

Not only is that remark insensitive but it completely overlooks the fact that NYCCH's can be a lot of fun plus they can usually be had for such reasonable prices.

Hopefully this shows how wrong it is to judge something or someone without considering all the relevant facts.

Shame on you Pengy :(

...

"Is that an assumption that folks who shop here don't really care whether or not what they spend their hard earned money on is top notch? I would never, never, ever dream of buying anything....unless an antique, or yard sale item that was not perfect. would you buy a new hard drive with bad sectors, a new car with flat tires or tranny problems, a dress or pair of pants with mismatched seams, etc., etc., etc.? this makes no sense to me. how many of you actually don't expect perfection from what you are buying in the mp at the time you plop down the old credit card?" Want to have critics?, any conforming dress for Vicky doesn't conform to Vicky! If you bend her knees the dress will not follow the shin, you have to apply the morphs that comes with the dress, change the joint parameters, change the legs position/orientation and a lot of headache until the feet crossing the dress surface in an surealistic point is not more visible, if you have luck and don't desist of your pose. If I buy a dress I know that it will not conform, but if I like it I shall buy it anyway. I don't know about dynamic clothes so I haven't any opinion yet.

Maybe Pengy should test a few NYCCH's before he reviews them? But then again, maybe not. ;-)

At least she isn't a DC crack whore. Otherwise you would be asked to NAME the NAME'S of your other clients .Your history in the forums and the stand you took on the CHILD NUDITY issue will be investigated.Then you will have to disclose what political party they supported in the last elections compared to the New York crack whores. Next you will be checked for skin color,sexual orientation and their religious beliefs,whether you've ever had sex, and what food you eat. Only if the above questions are answered to satisfaction will you be required to declare yourself a carnivore or vegetarian. The type of car you drive will then be reviewed to make sure it is adequate for the act. Your stance on the environment is only considered if you plan on using condoms,but your weight,personal hygiene. and employment record are of no concern,I mean C'mon she's a crack whore after all.

any conforming dress for Vicky doesn't conform to Vicky! If you bend her knees the dress will not follow the shin, you have to apply the morphs that comes with the dress, change the joint parameters, change the legs position/orientation and a lot of headache until the feet crossing the dress surface in an surealistic point is not more visible, if you have luck and don't desist of your pose. well, it shouldn't be that way. long dresses are hard to conform to all poses, but if they are clingey type they should be able to bend at the knee etc. even i've made a few where vicki could sit with no problem. never sold any of them, though, because....vicki couldn't do the splits in them, and, i didn't want to make buyers angry. i have so much that isn't perfect on my hd, it's not funny....and, just after reading this thread am starting to see dollar signs on it.

Ok this subject is getting us nowhere we stand by our decision and I have given you all a chance to voice your opinions. Being as this could go on and on I am locking this thread as of now. SndCastie Community Admin