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Poser - OFFICIAL F.A.Q (Last Updated: 2024 Nov 29 7:57 am)
Subject: Renda vs V3 -- brawling bimbos or secretly sisters ?
If I recall correctly, DAZ would have allowed Lilin to be distributed as an RTE Encoded file, which would mean that people would need V3 in order to use Lilin. They may offer the same solution for Renda ... but I am just amazed that this (along with the obvious performance problems) wasn't noticed or addressed before the figure was released.
First, let me say that Renderosity would absolutely, under no circumstances, disrespect someone else's copyright. We have worked extremely hard for the past several years to set the standard of upholding copyrights. We have refused to sell products in our marketplace, even when other sites continued to do so, because we believed so strongly that it was wrong. That said, I can assure you that we are investigating this situation. It did not come up in testing, because there are no references in any of the Renda files to these morphs. They appear to only be generated after saving in Poser and Poser generates a new CR2 file. However, if we find there are problems within the Renda files, we will take immediate corrective action. Best regards, LillianH Renderosity Marketing & Promotions
Lillian Hawkins
Marketing Manager
By serving each other, we are free.
Your welcome ED! * The first and obvious infringment is the use of the full cr2 of V3 to make a competitive figure, all included, channels, names and even Joint Controlled morphs from V3. I think this clear out the doubts of an infrignment. I feel sorry for Rendo but they should be more careful with the release of a figure so close to V3. *
snicker So... what are ya'll going to do to top this for the Annual Company BBQ and Footshooting in September, Lillian? ;]
"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"
- Monkeysmell
"I personally DO believe Rendo has been duplicious. From the very beginning Rendo has not cared a whit about what others have said regarding Renda in terms of quality &/or similarities to V3. Combine that with the fact that any real testing/inspection on the the figure's CR2 would have found something in this. If not the JP similarities, the unused channels & superfluous deltas at the very least."
Well, yeah, there is that. Any other product with similar issues would have failed testing. They did release it with full knowledge that it had problems and that is un-contestable I'm afraid.
I'm at my other computer so I can't open the original version of her to see what the differences are but everyone should keep in mind this version was supposed to be a "fix". Whomever "fixed" the bend problems obviously used something they shouldn't have.
That's why I don't believe any of the working Admins should be held to blame here. Clint himself has stated he's spent around 5 hours trying to figure the problem out. And even though she was released with problems, I have a hard time believing either Clint or Debbie thought that was a good idea.
(crossposted with a lot of people I'm afraid) :) Message edited on: 06/28/2005 22:07
...... Kendra
Lilian - I dunno where you got that info, but it is incorrect from a technical standpoint. Those channels are from the V3 CR2. There is no WAY they could have got into the Renda CR2 without the V3 CR2 being injected into the figure. Poser does not have those channels as defaults, nor does the app store them between figures. Take this from someone who has been rigging all morning and decided to test your theory out. I am not saying you "personally" decided to inject those channels & JP's into the figure. But someone did. It is not a mistake on Poser's part (it cannot & does not do what you are talking about). Either way, as Rendo is the corporation selling & making money from the figure - Rendo is responsible. DAZ sues Rendo, and Rendo can then sue whoever they like. DAZ cannot sue the rigger in this mess given that the distribution they have evidence of is from Rendo. EK
"Lilian - I dunno where you got that info, but it is incorrect from a technical standpoint." - Eternal Knight
Silly 'Knight: Everyone knows that Poser automatically copies the best available deltas, morph channels, and jp's when it saves a cr2, didn't you? ;]p~ Poser just automatically like, hunts through your runtime until it finds the very best for your model...
"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"
- Monkeysmell
"...this is an obvious infringement..." "...The first and obvious infringment..." Of what? Certainly not copyright, since Program settings (ie, cr2's) are not subject to copyright (although the deltas -- morph targets -- are, and I'll grant that the inclusion of those -- assuming they are the V3 morphs, is a potential issue.) Eula's aren't infringed on -- they are violated or broken. If they did go against the terms of the Eula, then it would be up to DAZ to enforce it. Thus far, I haven't seen anything to make think there is an issue with copyright or trademark specifically (and V3 is subject to both), although I have seen items that would suggest to me that someone violated the End User License Agreement that accompanies DAZ products. Which, technically speaking, is a civil disagreement over the terms of a contract, and not illegal -- merely wrongheaded or ignorant on the part of the person or persons who created the figure. As for jp's: any figure that occupies esentially the same shape and is going to bend in essentially the same way as V3 is going to have similar -- if not exact -- jps out to at least 5 places. That is not, however, illegal. A character built form scratch could arrive at exactly the same settings without once referring to Victoria 3 or utilizing her CR2 simply because that's the way the program identifies those locations or points in space. This applies to LinLin as well, despite the strong arm extralegal tactics of the company in question. It was, in the end, a choice made by Sixus1 media to pull her inorder to avoid a possible legal battle they have neither the time nor interest in dealing with. Of all of this, the thing that is most certainly damning -- assuming it can be established that they do indeed work directly on V3 and do not work directly on Renda (simply repoint the object file in the cr2) -- is the morph targets. Those deltas are very much subject to copyright, and that would specifically be a potential infringement. However, in such, two factores come into play that are critical. The first is that DAZ has to decide it is somethign they wish to pursue. The second is that none o ya'll got a damn say in it. It would have to go up before a court of law for it to be established as an infringement, and it is entirely possible that the court might rule that the Deltas in this specific case are not protected since they do not specifically affect the figure involved. Would make for an interesting precedent, if nothing else. then again, the fireworks in this show should be interesting to watch. wrt "...It did not come up in testing, because there are no references in any of the Renda files to these morphs. They appear to only be generated after saving in Poser and Poser generates a new CR2 file..." This is easy enough to establish: open the Cr2 without resaving it in poser and seek the morph targets. Be sure to use the most recent version of the file -- the one doubtless uploaded within 30 minutes or so of this thread starting...
thou and I, my friend, can, in the most flunkey world, make, each of us, one non-flunkey, one hero, if we like: that will be two heroes to begin with. (Carlyle)
bookmark (and checking an "UnPosered" version of Renda's CR2 against V3's). Ya know, UltraEdit32 has a built in file compare just like those screen captured above. It's that easy, folks!
C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the
foot. C++ makes it harder, but when you do, you blow your whole leg
off.
-- Bjarne
Stroustrup
Contact Me | Kuroyume's DevelopmentZone
Isn't Renderosity's policy to pull a product under investigation? Nobody will hear about Daz and Rend's discussion until an agreement has been resolved. That is Daz's policy, I think it's Rend's also. The product should definatly be pulled though. I really would like to know who the contractor was, I don't want to witch hunt or pitchfork, but everytime this has come up in the past there was more than one instance of concern. oh well more drama.
I'd say that all of the morphs 'remaining' (probably unused) in the Renda.cr2 are IDENTICAL (in both number, index, and value) to those in Victoria3.cr2. And this is a direct extraction of the Renda character from the zip archive without implicating the mysterious Poser-factor. That'll hold in a court of law.
C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the
foot. C++ makes it harder, but when you do, you blow your whole leg
off.
-- Bjarne
Stroustrup
Contact Me | Kuroyume's DevelopmentZone
Actually one can "infringe" upon the rights of others, be those rights granted by copyright law or terms within a legally binding contract. Although I understand the distinction you are trying to make - I'm just being an ass about it :) But the important thing to note here is that there IS a legal problem. A contract (by definition) is "legally binding". Regardless of whether it is a copyright offence or an offence undedr contract law - it IS an offence. More to the point - who here thinks that DAZ will not pursue this. They have come down on others like a tonne of bricks, what makes Rendo any different? Unless there is a special agreement we have not heard about (unlikely given the uninformed comments by LilianH) between Rendo & DAZ - there is going to be trouble. Whether that results in Rendo simply pulling to figure (likely) or in DAZ actually suing Rendo (less likely given the first solution) is another matter. We have no say in the matter, correct. But we are free to state our opinions (within the bounds of the TOS). And pointing out factual errors & outright lies is within those bounds :) EK
"Isn't Renderosity's policy to pull a product under investigation?" It depends on the product, the merchant, and the investigation. Based on the earlier statements of Renderosity's representativbe in this thread, there is no investigation. Nor at this time do they intend to do one, one might reasonably infer. The product is fine, and those deltas do not appear until the product is saved, at which time they magically appear, even in a system that has no victoria 3 installed. Everything is sweetness and light. I'm gonna go chase bunny rabbits and butterflies in a field of flowers with my puppydogs now...
thou and I, my friend, can, in the most flunkey world, make, each of us, one non-flunkey, one hero, if we like: that will be two heroes to begin with. (Carlyle)
well on day one I got renda ..and after looking at v3 side by side I thought 'hey! I bet v3's jps would fix R's joint issues" and I copied 'em over and they did. and you know? that kind of seemed suspicious... I've got my guesses about who produced this little gem ... or more specifically I know who didnt and that doesnt leave many names in the hat.
Addition: I'd be happy to save a file containing matches on the comparison if needed.
C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the
foot. C++ makes it harder, but when you do, you blow your whole leg
off.
-- Bjarne
Stroustrup
Contact Me | Kuroyume's DevelopmentZone
....Crap on the ceiling fan..............
Software: Daz Studio 4.15, Photoshop CC, Zbrush 2022, Blender 3.3, Silo 2.3, Filter Forge 4. Marvelous Designer 7
Hardware: self built Intel Core i7 8086K, 64GB RAM, RTX 3090 .
"If you spend too much time arguing about software, you're spending too little time creating art!" ~ SomeSmartAss
"A critic is a legless man who teaches running." ~ Channing Pollock
So... does this one count as another Poser "bug" or a hidden feature ? Hmmm ... depends ... When you use the Setup room to apply joints from another CR2, it basically copies all of the information from the original CR2 into the new figure. It's basically the same principal as taking a CR2 and changing the two lines that reference the OBJ file. So, after you apply info from a CR2 in the setup room, it may not be obvious that all of that extraneous info is retained ... unless you look in the Parameters window for morphs, or open it in a CR2 Editor to remove extraneous info that isn't needed.
Using ExamDiff to compair victoria3.cr2 to renda.cr2: v3 = 100,756 lines renda = 58,979 lines total differences found: 8,025 the renda file was extracted directly from the updated zip file, v1.1 (which I downloaded on saturday), into a folder completely remote from any poser or runtime folders. Some of those differences include material settings. E.D.
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Ok, I understand now. I think... Thanks posermatic and cliff. E.D.