It seemed a few years ago, when I first started serious trying to use Poser and occasionally participating in this forum, that everybody loved DAZ. Victoria and Michael were much better models than their P4 equivalents. Within the last year, there seems to be more and more grumbling against DAZ and I cannot recall seeing anything specific to explain why there's been such a reversal. I'm curious about what's going on? Is it just because they've become the biggest Poser store and we're supposed to root for the underdog?

2002 well, technically, its not fashionable. Some folks have jsut sorta lost their capability for reason ever since it became apparent that DAZ wasn't just a couple folks tryin hard to make some money and doing nice stuff, but a business that makes a profit and loss line. Becuase they practice exclusionary merchanting, they piss off people who feel that they should be included there. THere's nothing wrong with exclusionary merchanting. But when ya get snubbed, it stings. Then ther are the interpersonal issues that have occured. In any social grouping as small as this, interpersonal issues get spread out among unrelated parties like wild fire. "so and so dis this to such and such. So and so is someone I admire/like/fawn hopeless over, so such and such is an evil ingrate." DAZ isn't alone in this, either. Rosity most likely has more haters than they do, but PoserPRos isn't liked by some folks, and even my beloved RDNA is somehow hated. Nothing new or special about it.

Nothing new or special about it No, just something sad.

Nah. Not even sad. it's normal. It happens everywhere and with everything. That's the nature of human social groups. I don't particularly care if someone thinks that DAZ is the greatest, or RO is the greatest, or whoever. But if they holler their feeling sout at the top of their lungs, and make them proclamations of fact, they'd best be able to back 'em up.

there are some people who have animosity against DAZ but So what!! why start a thread about it?? If DAZ puts out and item you like then buy it and get on with your art forget the haters

I've said this before, mostly in the copyright forum. It's probably not a good idea to encourage or allow such a topic, due to the possibility of libellous content. It could also be misconstrued as an unfair trade practice, if things get out of hand.

It's been "fashionable" for awhile now. Don't really know why either. But wolf is right; there are better ways to spend one's time and energy.

Message edited on: 07/16/2005 15:27

mateo, rest assured, we do keep an eye on these threads. No one has said anything libelous, and I advise that those who wish to post in answer of post #1 think hard before doing so. MorriganShadow Poser Moderator.

giggles

I asked the question out of curiosity and not to stir up nasty responses. I guess I can understand that some merchants could be upset because the quality or type of products they make aren't what DAZ wants to promote. There seems to be a lot of grumbling outside of merchants. Things seem to be going beyond the point of logic to the extent that people are getting upset at even sales. It almost seems to be more a problem of mob psychology than specific personal gripes. Maybe it is as simple as a changing perception as DAZ no longer being one of us to being a business. Even as a business, most of us work for businesses that have significantly more employees than DAZ ever will. I haven't really had any problems with DAZ or any other Poser store. I had a minor issue over the current sale because the rules changed on one aspect of the sale after I read an official position over what could be done. That's more an indication of how everybody's overworked and how even their management can have trouble figuring out all the details. Everything got resolved to my satisfaction, so I haven't got any issues with them. I don't solely make my Poser purchases at DAZ and spend money where the prices are right and there's content I want. It strikes me as weird when I see so many emotional responses over things that shouldn't have them.

"the quality or type of products they make aren't what DAZ wants to promote." It has nothing to do with quality or type. It's a subjective decision based on anticipated sales volume. "It almost seems to be more a problem of mob psychology than specific personal gripes." Close, in layman's generalization, but not fully accurate. Again, the crux is based on exclusions and the perceptions of exclusion and fairness. Nobody likes to be left out of anything. "It strikes me as weird when I see so many emotional responses over things that shouldn't have them." They're artists. Emotion is, um, always rampant.

well, it's a free country..there's nothing that prevents an enterprising merchant out there from competing with DAZ, if that's the way they feel. I've never had any problem with DAZ, and have a fairly full roster of characters and props by them. They're pretty free with the free stuff, so I couldn't complain..;)

I suppose when Bill Gates was an unknown geek working in a garage, his friends thought he was a wizard. Once he became the richest man on the planet, he turned into a target. We can all bitch about MS, and half of it may be justified, but the other half is probably purely human nature. That's just the way it is. One thing that really puzzles me though is this continuously implied notion that DAZ and CL/EF are at war, despite statements from both sides to the contrary. Maybe it's another form of religious fanaticism or football fan syndrome. It must be psychologically comforting to pick a side, rah-rah them on and diss the 'enemy'. mac

"One thing that really puzzles me though is this continuously implied notion that DAZ and CL/EF are at war, despite statements from both sides to the contrary. Maybe it's another form of religious fanaticism or football fan syndrome." I would hardly call it a "war", but I do think it's possible (and perhaps logical) that the two companies are inwardly strife, despite their placid demeanor. I'm sure it's not something they would even share with each other, much less admit publicly. I really don't think eFrontier (formerly CuriousLabs), as a company, likes the fact that Daz is working on a potentially competitive product in DazStudio, and I hardly think Daz is overjoyed that their Mil figs are left out of certain aspects of Poser, like the face room, or that eFrontier has ContentParadise as an integrated part of their software, giving them an incredible advertising advantage. Eh, I could be wrong. Maybe they both really love each other, and want to share Poser's relatively tiny cunsumer base over a cup of coffee and some warm, fuzzy hugs. ;-)

"or that eFrontier has ContentParadise as an integrated part of their software, giving them an incredible advertising advantage." Given that over half the users of Poser are unaware that DAZ even exists (and Rosity, PP, 3DCommune, blah blah), this is a really good point.

I can't recall exactly when this was posted, but it wasn't more than 6 months ago (here at Rosity) ---------------------------- I do want to say however that Dan Farr and DAZ have been very supportive of the Poser 6 release and of Curious Labs, as we are of DAZ and their contributions to the Poser community. Everyone involved would like to see these types of suggestions and assumptions a thing of the past. Steve Yatson Curious Labs ---------------------------- mac

Nah. Not even sad. it's normal. It happens everywhere and with everything. That doesn't make it not sad - that makes it epidemic. It may well be human nature - but then so is hate mongering, prejudice, racism, war .... just because it is human nature doesn't mean it is acceptable or that we shouldn't try to rise above it. I would hardly call it a "war", but I do think it's possible (and perhaps logical) that the two companies are inwardly strife, despite their placid demeanor I think that often on-lookers think that because two people [or companies] compete with each other that they must dislike/hate/be at war with each other. I have many heated verbal fights with one of my best friends which to an on-looker might seem like we can't get along at all, but to us it is just like playing a game - we both know and respect each other's views on things and at no time do we take the verbal battles seriously and in nearly 20 years we have never been upset or angry in any way during these battles. Now I don't know if it's the same with eF and DAZ but it may well be that they really have no problem with each other at all. The truth is, I doubt that what DAZ is doing hurts eF at all. Sure, some people might decide to get D|S rather than buy Poser and so there might be a lost sale, but I think in most cases that happens it is a sale that was never very likely anyway. People have just so much money they can spend and if they don't spend it on Poser but get D|S then they will likely spend the money on content but they will still [in most cases] spend it. In the end, the more people using programs like Poser the more people will - people have to know about sopmething before the can buy it and each person out there using a 3D pose&render program is a bit of free advertizing for every company that makes one. Honest competition is good for the market place. Not always in the short term, but in the long term everyone benifits - well, except for the people selling real junk - they benifit from consumers not seeing any other product so that people don't know they have bought junk, but I don't see that this applies to either Poser or D|S. Now I don't know if the people that own and work at these two companies agree with this view and maybe they see each other as a threat to their paycheques, but if so I think they would be foolish and since the two companies both say it isn't the case, I think it is reasonable to take their word for it. People always seem to want to find conflict in everything but the truth is, life is more than conflict - even in business.

It's always been fashionable (for virtually everything). It's human nature.

When people are satisfied with whatever-it-is, they don't tend to proclaim the fact. They just get on with it. Occasionally, if someone REALLY likes a product, they'll shout about it.

But if someone finds they have niggles about a product (whether it comes from DAZ or elsewhere), they'll immediately jump in and yell "It doesn't work!!!!!" (or whatever the problem might be.

It happens all the time. When someone points out to the accuser (and to everyone who agrees withhim/her) that they've overlooked something that was pointed out in the "read-me", suddenly the thread goes quiet...

If I have complaints about a DAZ (or anyone else's) product, after having read both the sales blurb and any read-me's, then I contact the provider. I do not start a a screaming thread.

Mind you, after that, if I don't get satisfaction, then I'll consider starting a thread.

But that's never happened (yet) to me.

errm...
Nothing more to add (yet)..

Cheers,
Diolma

Message edited on: 07/16/2005 18:39

It's "competition." Hatred is what happens when too many people want to profit from the same gains. Was a time when these communities were more about sharing creativity and learning and inspiring and being inspired. Back then Daz/Zygote had value because without Daz Poser and Company would have been much less, now you have so many so called merchants falling over each other trying to sell everything and anything to anyone, and Daz is unfortunatly one big sore in the side to many. It's become a fight over toys and who can sell the most for the least to the many. Daz is a threat since they have been around a long time and much they do is about quality; and they are actually a professional online store and this shows by the quality they put forth again and again. Darn, I just realized in my haste I forgot to paint one of my nails, that just won't do, better run or I will be late for my date. Smiles!

I've hated daz for years.

It makes more wrinkles when you hate than when you smile. If you've hated daz for years you must not like 3D art very much either, since they were one of the innovators and catalysts for much of what you see all over. Biting the hand that feeds you is easy once the belly is full. I'm late for my date, excuse me now.

I don't think anyone really hates Daz. Well maybe Fls13. :) I don't think dissapproval consitutes hate. I don't think it is about competition either. I think a lot of people have been frustrated for various reasons and have very passionate views about what they do and why. But I don't think it is about hate. Just because someone criticizes you doesn't mean they hate you. Usually the opposite is true. I think, when people are that passionate, it is because they care. I could be wrong though. But lumping opinions as just hate is too broad of a generalization. It's like saying all people suck and that is why the world is the way it is.

"It's like saying all people suck and that is why the world is the way it is." I resemble that remark.

I don't hate any site. So long as I get the merchandise I seek and it's as advertised, polite customer service, and the site backs up the customer when a merchant craps on them, I'm happy :)

With the exception of one bad experience at PP, that the Admins rectified when the merchant wouldn't, I've had nothing but good experiences with the merchants and admins from all the sites that I frequent.

When I post asking for help, or send a PM asking for help, the replies and assistance are very prompt. Even when I email sites like DAZ, I get a reply back assisting me.

I have no complaints :)

Message edited on: 07/16/2005 19:45

"If you've hated daz for years you must not like 3D art very much either, since they were one of the innovators and catalysts for much of what you see all over." by LornaW Simply not a true statement. They have incorporated a lot of inovations from the community into their products that is true. But the inovations have come from the community and they have addopted them. Easypose, Switching geometry, transmaps, python scripting, body handles, even injections, all by community menbers, not DAZ. Even Daz Studio is a 3rd party render engine with a copied Lightwave user interface thrown on top. I don't see that much inofative techknowlegy from Daz.

It has nothing to do with quality or type. It's a subjective decision based on anticipated sales volume.

ynsaen: While that may bother some people what you have here is the difference between a hobby and a business. A business is about profits - maybe not pretty, but there it is - any business that isn't about profits simply doesn't last. Now you can make a sort of business of a hobby but then, since the hobby is a reason in of itself, you fall in a different catagory. But when it is not a hobby but a business and it employs people who have to get their paycheques on a regular basis then there is a bottom line whether we like it or not - and that makes it so that profit per item or projected volume of sales are key factors. And yes, a lot of business decitions are based on the subjective opinion of the person deciding. Is it "fair" - well, if it was a club or a bunch of friends sharing a hobby that made money on the side sometimes then no it wouldn't be, but it is a business and so "fair" in that sense doesn't come into it. I'm not saying businesses don't have to be fair, but the word has to be applied appropreately. Someone has to pick which products they expect to get enough sales to have acceptable profits and that means they will sometimes tell people "no". Maybe they judge wrong and lose out on sales and maybe they don't, either way, they have to do their best to make acceptable profits so they can stay in business and if that means they tell people with good products that they don't feel they can carry that product - well, frustrating as it can be, it's really not something they can change if they want to stay in business.

"So long as I get the merchandise I seek and it's as advertised, polite customer service, and the site backs up the customer when a merchant craps on them, I'm happy :)" Same here. There are products from DAZ that I like and products that I don't like. I don't buy the ones I don't like and leave it at that.

Firemonkey -- exactly the reason I made that statement. It was in direct correction of the eariler post. "That doesn't make it not sad - that makes it epidemic. It may well be human nature - but then so is hate mongering, prejudice, racism, war .... just because it is human nature doesn't mean it is acceptable or that we shouldn't try to rise above it." Actually, it doesn't make it epidemic, either. Human nature may have things about it that social groups don't like. That doesn't make it unacceptable as a rule. Too many potential variations and soft shadings in social dynamics to uniformly decry across the board -- unless you bring in personal and or the specific ethics, morals, and values of a specific group or subset of groups. Which I wasn't doing. "I resemble that remark. " I wouldn't say resemble. Echo, perhaps... giggles

We all win when no one company has a monopoly anymore. It's good to have alternatives in figures and software. As far as I'm concerned Daz Studio can only inspire e-frontier to continue to improve Poser and it's great that there are now 3rd party figures being released of a high quality that give people an alternative to Dork and Posette in their current incarnations or even Michael and Victoria. Prices are coming down so we can now get a better value for our money as well. It certainly isn't a crime for anyone to favor one product line over another either, I think we just have to respect each other's choices. I would hate to see the Poser community devided by the software snobbery that people who use products costing thousands seem to was to inflict on us all the time.

I don't think it's fashionable to hate Daz. It's just that it used to be fashionable to love, love, love them. Just after the P5 release, when people were up in arms against "evil" Curious Labs, Daz was the "hero" that was going to save us with Daz Studio. "Wise visonaries" populated these boards with all kinds of rabid blather about how Daz was going to crush the evil Curious Labs Empire and bring freedom to the rest of Poserdom. These days, all that blather seems as silly as it inherently really was. It's just business folks. And now that Daz is no longer perceived as the "White Knight", you hear occasional grumbling against them, something that was unthinkable a few years ago. But Daz and Curious Labs (now known as E-Frontier) are all cool. They bring us lots of good stuff and most of us ought to just relax and enjoy. -jjsemp (who has always disliked whiners)

I don't hate Daz but like all companies they will not be able to make everyone happy. I fail to understand why they don't listen to people on their own forum though. I see some people love morph injection and some people do not. How hard would it be to sell the morph packs with injection or optional morph loaded cr2. Imagine going to a burger place and them saying you can't get a hamburger only cheesburger cause thats all they feel like offering. That was just one example of things fixed easily so more population is happy.

I don't buy alot from daz because with current poly counts it seems the products lean towards portrait stills type of content which does not interest me. I might buy more from daz (and Rendo for that matter) if relevant 3d information was given in the description (polycount, obj size, cr2size etc..)and a wireframe view.

Human nature may have things about it that social groups don't like. That doesn't make it unacceptable as a rule. Fair enough, but in my mind I can find no good value to be found in random hate - to hate something for little or no reason or to hate it because someone else hates it or to hate it because you like something else is in my mind a non-productive thing at best and very distructive at worst. Remember that this whole subtext of conversation between you and I stems from statements about people who hate DAZ for what seems to be nothing more than the fact that they like Poser and so they seem to feel they must therefore hate DAZ [other reasons have also surfaced but none which seem to have more justifiable basis] However, while I may find this aspect of human nature to be undesirable and sad, it is only my philosophical view after all and if your view differs, well, you have every bit as much right to your view. [re-reading that it sounds like I'm being condesending but that is not my intent - I just can't find words that do a better job so please understand that if you could hear my voice when I said that, you would see that it does not contain any condesention or strife in it] And now that Daz is no longer perceived as the "White Knight", you hear occasional grumbling against them, something that was unthinkable a few years ago. Ah yes - there is no more dangerous place to be than on a pedistal - the higher the worse - because sooner or later you're bound to stumble and the fall can be real nasty.

Just posting a reminder before I go offline for the night, keep it civil (like it is), and think about whether or not something you post could be considered libelous toward anyone, be it a company or a person. Have a great night, and thank you for keeping this a great civil discussion. MorriganShadow Poser Moderator

"However, while I may find this aspect of human nature to be undesirable and sad, it is only my philosophical view after all and if your view differs, well, you have every bit as much right to your view." Doesn't sound condescending at all. Particularly since I haven't expressed my view. now if I had, well, that's another thing entirely, lol.

I'm one of the rare people who thinks Bill Gates is an absolute bloody genius, not a monster. And it's simple .. it's called the 'Tall Poppy Syndrome'. Anything richer, wiser, stronger, etc needs to be cut down to make the rest of us feel worthy. It happens in all communities, all across the world, online and off.

I've been helping friends move today: I am quite tired.

DAZ is a great company, IMO. They sell stuff that I want. As for their products that I don't want -- I ignore them.

And to my rather simplistic way of thinking, that's about all that matters.

My HDD (Compact Flash) for my digital camera glitched out on me tonight, too. After I'd taken a ton of pictures at a child's 1-year birthday party -- the son of some friends (not the friends that I helped to move today).

The boy has a deadly form of cancer. Most children with his disease don't live past age 3.

And my 2.2GB CF+ Type II hard drive crashed.

Maybe I can save the data.

Fortunately, there were other photographers at the party.

DAZ?

I like DAZ.

Time to go contemplate infinity for 6 hours or so.

Perhaps I won't dream about glowing neon-green cars -- or about people that I haven't seen in 25 years.

Then again -- it's always interesting whenever I do.

ynsaen: good, I'm glad I got what I was saying across the right way [heh] I do far better talking face to face with people - sometimes words without voices or body language can be read very differently than intended. Xena: you are correct that people tend to attack the rich and successful and I think you are right about the reasons - however it can also be a case of rich and successful 'evile people' [heh] As for Gates - well, I don't care if he is rich or poor, and I don't care if his company is tiny or runs the world, I only look at what he has done and does do. I'm afraid that other than saying he is a brillient businessman, I find little impressive about him. However, I only mention this to point out that while the rich are often targets simply because they are rich, one can't assume that this is the reason some are disliked. If this was a programmer's forum then I might get into the question of what about him impresses you, but since as far as I know, he isn't an artist and he doesn't produce 3D pose&render software, this doesn't seem the place.

It has nothing to do with quality or type. It's a subjective decision based on anticipated sales volume. Errrr, there is some "type" invovled. DAZ will turn down products for various reasons that have to do with their image as being serious and family-friendly. They accepted pdxjim's Vittorio, but didn't want the genitals or the body hair add-ons. I dunno why, but I would speculate that it was too "weird" to be turning a female into a male complete with hair or something. They also turned down a classic "red devil" costume, with cape, horns, and trunks, apparently on the grounds that it was too kinky or something. So yes, type does matter to DAZ. They're not going to sell bondage gear (or devil costumes) no matter how good it is or how much volume they could get. bonni

(Quote) "If you've hated daz for years you must not like 3D art very much either, since they were one of the innovators and catalysts for much of what you see all over." by LornaW Simply not a true statement. They have incorporated a lot of inovations from the community into their products that is true. But the inovations have come from the community and they have addopted them. (Unquote) Simply not true? Why?? They were the start of all the poser stuff. Perhaps they were called Zygote back then but from what I understand they sure were innovative enough to get a lot of the communities started and keep them going and going!! Maybe today they go more by what the community wants and fashions follow the trends but is that such a hate crime?? Personally, I'd trust a Daz item more than much else as a product because they have more credibility by a long shot than any one merchant and even the forums; Daz was a store first and then added their own (kind of) forum which is exactly the reverse of all the rest that became stores after they were communities. Unfortunatly I am not alone in my thinking that a business that adds a playroom and learning center to appeal to its clientel sounds so much more credible and professional and trusting than a playroom and learning center that suddenly adds a store; one is adding fun, comfort and freedom to a business, the other is taking fun and freedom away by trying to be a business; it's like the Three Stooges suddenly doing Shakespeare and we have to try to take them serious! Oh fer sure! Would have been better to keep any after the forum stores as a side site instead of plopping it up in the middle of the sandbox where so many played with each other or pooped on one another for such a long time! It really does seem so flea market like, or like a park with lush green grass and pretty flowers that people enjoyed looking at and sniffing for a long time until suddenly someone put up a sign asking for two bucks a look and one buck a sniff and be sure to keep off the grass while your here!! I'm tired, too much salsa dancing; off to bed now with sore feet from my high heels. Smiles!

Giggles, I think it is interesting that this topic has so much reply, including me.....why do people grumble.....ha ha ha....humans....simple as that. Some of us humans don't have enough of a thick skin, take things personally, it can make you a very nasty person on any particular day. Then again, we can be amazing on any particular day. As said above, buy what you want from where you want and leave the rest alone. Sharen

Fair enough, but in my mind I can find no good value to be found in random hate

I don't think anyone would argue that. But the people who do hate DAZ are not doing it randomly. Just as the people who love DAZ aren't doing it randomly.

Judging from your gallery, you're very new to Poser. I suspect you are simply not aware of some of the history here. Yes, some people have an axe to grind with DAZ. But they have reason.

Me, I love some of the things DAZ does, and hate others. I don't hate DAZ, or I wouldn't give them so much of my money. ;-)

Actually I've used Poser for several years, but I use it to make animations - most of the time, stills I do in Photoshop - in fact, before coming here I never realized that people used Poser to create stills, I mean it's obvious that you can but it is animation software and I alway figured people would use it to make animations. Most of my gallery was not done using Poser, or is that why you say you think I'm new to Poser? That said, I've only been a member here for about 3 months and before coming here I didn't know anyone who used Poser besides myself so it is true I don't know all the history, but I do know what I read and my assessment of the matter was largely from reading what people who were attacking DAZ were writing and if there is a reason for their ax grinding, they sure don't seem willing to state it.

I think that the main reason that many customers fell out of favor with DAZ is because they became the biggest Poser store. I can look at Apple as an example of a company that has a fierce level of product support from customers that is often very emotional. I cannot help but wonder if Apple wouldn't be loved as much if they weren't the computer industry underdog. A decade ago, Macs were very much ahead of PCs. Macs had a graphical interface (which they "borrowed" from Xerox) when PCs still opened up to a DOS "." prompt. Today, the differences aren't as great and I'll let others argue which is better. It's an interesting phenomenom how Apple managed to develop a nearly cult following. The lovefest for Apple Computers would have ended long ago had Macs become the dominant line of computers. Apple has a level of control over what goes on their line of computers that Microsoft and Intel could only dream of. If Apple weren't the underdog in the computer wars, there wouldn't be much love lost between the company and customers. Back when Apple had the opportunity to port their interface to the PC world, before Windows 3, they decided against it because they were selling computers and the operating system was the main reason to buy a Mac instead of a PC. Apple was making $1000 profit on every Mac sold, a profit margin that was unheard of on the PC side. Apple isn't on top of the PC world, so they can still be loved and they clearly make a prettier PC.

DAZ has always dealt with me in a fair and honest manner. They've been generous enough to give us V3, Aiko 3, Mike 3, Emoti-Guy, and DAZ Studio for free. I bet that more than 75% of the Poser products in RMP are for DAZ characters. No one likes everything they do, but I don't understand why people "hate" them. Maybe it's because they're the Microsoft of the Poser Content industry and certain people feel it's their duty to trash #1.

Oddly, I have found that when you give stuff away for free, sometimes people start to think that you should do EVERYTHING for free ... I wonder if that is a part of it.

Maybe. I do know that giving away a few major items like the base figures certainly generates revenue. Once people have had been able to try something, they are more than likely to return to purchase additions for that item. I'm sure that many who had wanted V3 for along time but were leary of spending the money, downloaded the free base and also went back to purchase the head and body morphs, plus clothing...and character addons. It's shrewd business. Also people complain about the quality of some of the products that are being offered for $1.99. Maybe it's because I'm extremely picky on how I spend my money and I tend to pick and choose, but I haven't had any complaints about the quality of anything I've bought from there. I do read a number of boards, and I have read ongoing discussions that involved certain sites and certain poser community members, and I do feel badly that they've had such a bad experience, but those experiences aren't mine. I will continue to empathise with those who were wronged, but I will also continue to reserve my own judgement and opinion of the involved sites. I think a number of people who jump on the "I hate" bandwagon are people who have read other peoples' experiences and are basing their "hate/dislike" largely on that, rather than their own personal experiences.

Now that seems likely indeed. I know there is always a lot of people who are willing to help out hating for someone [as it were] In fact, I've had the experience in my personal life that people I knew started 'hating' someone they had never actually met because they THOUGHT that I hated that person and wanted to show solidarity ... some of them actually seemed offended when they found out that I DIDN'T hate the person at all - I just didn't care to be around them, which is quite another thing. Oh well, as Kristofferson says in one of his songs: "Everybody's got to have somebody to look down on..." it does seem to be the human way. That and expecting to get a $10 value when they only spend $3. Some days one just can't win, and I suppose that goes for companies too.

As I will probably be an eternal newbie at Poser, in the way that I almost never keep a picture I rendered because it doesn't satisfy me and I am always short on money (which makes me keep using the same old elements and a lot of freebies too) I am probably not the best judge in this... but ah well.
I have no hate whatsoever against Daz, here, but as I browse their catalog now and then, I cannot help but feeling they keep a very "smooth and generic" thinking of what 3d figures should be. It's like an excellent wine diluted in a large glass of water: the intent is there, but the sparkle, very often, is not. Let's look at the unimesh concept: one could say "yay this is great you can use morphs from that figure to that other, as well as textures" but one could also say that all of them unimesh family look like they came out from the same cloning tank. Also, the obssessive lack of anatomical accuracy in the genitals department feels a bit stupid nowadays; anyone can add a wing-wong on a Mike (thanks, Satanica) or a puss' on Vicky (thanks Arduino) but all in all, if Daz knows that omitting these parts of the characters is pointless, why doing so? Hypocrisy?
The "very original" and somehow refreshing products that I can see popping up in Daz catalogs, it seems, are mostly those designed by outside artists who adhere to Daz for the sale of some specific bits. The artists are sure not those from the "inside" it seems... and the fact Daz bought Poser Pros (a place with very decent products and a heap of good modellers and artists imho)shows that they know, indeed, tha without some new brains, well... their jacuzzi water's gonna turn tepid :)

There is no real reason why one should "hate" Daz I believe, but we can regret that they can't get much more inventive themselves, and just keep finding means of making once again more cash just out of a 1 000 000 th declination of the Unimesh.
No hate, no regret. And after all, we all love Poser so why bother stopping at hating anything :)

Message edited on: 07/20/2005 02:27

I can see the reason for someone to like the unimesh idea and I can also see why it is very limiting. There is something apealing in the idea that any MT will work with any figure, but of course as you say, it does lead to a lot of clones....

I'd love to see someone name one supposed 'DAZ innovation' that can't be traced back to some of the brightest minds in the Poser community....I can't remember any innovation by them other then being one of the first to sell third-party content for Poser. And since Metacreations developed Poser I would think that they were the start of it all and not Zygote/DAZ. No Poser - no Poser communities - no use for DAZ/Zygote content ;)

We all had a part in creating the community. You can trace its roots way back in this forum. We've all contributed something to the innovations, to the people, to the companies.