First of all, since this is my first post ever in more than one year, hello everybody. First of all, let me say that I absolutely don't believe in software/hardware protection schemes. My personal experience as a professional software developer tells me that even the best method won't last. Second, seen from the point of view of an italian customer who couldn't even register his copy of Poser 4 because it was bought after the MetaCreation affair, the promise of full support and ease of use of the protection scheme is just vaporware. Now, why am I angry? I'm not a cg professional. I don't earn my living from the use of Poser. But I have a dream. I want to create a CG animation from one of my novels. I wanted to buy the ProPack just for the integration with LightWave, so that I could render my animation using a friend of mine's professional workstation. Now I think that maybe it would be better for the whole Poser community if I write a new, open source application that does a few very simple things: 1) open the Zygote/DAZ models I own 2) easily pose them 3) render them 4) export to other applications What do you people think about it? Every comment is welcome.

WOW! If you can do that you must be one talented guy. I would be interested in something like that. I have been waiting a year for CL to come out with something new and exciting (that works) and they haven't produced it yet. Spending way too much of their valuable time chasing the dreaded warez ghosts to curb loses, rather than worry about a real update that would give them revenues. Count me in! I gave up on CL!

I use Pro Pack currently and it will allow you integrate with LightWave just fine. I can pose and animate my characters, import them into Lightwave scenes and render. It's something new and exciting that CL came out with that does work!

I don't have Lightwave, StudioMax, or other high priced software. I use Poser for fun. There was a HUGE wish list for Poser 5 that was floating around when MetaCreations still had Poser. I don't remember any of the PPP functionality being on that list, nor do I see any items from that list in PPP. I may be wrong. I believe that if CL would have spent all the effort they have wasted fighting warez on developing software, they could have released a Poser 5 that the hobby user could afford and would have bought, which would have given CL the money they need. They have grown blind to the real world. Poser will be dead soon. Go ahead and flame me, but that is my opinion!

rwilliams, I'm not going to flame you. I hope this is just a discussion and not an arguement.

One of the big items that has always been on many wishlist was plug-ins for other programs. The Pro Pack has these for 3DS Max and LightWave and they're talking about releasing plugins for Truespace, Cinema4D XL and Cararra soon for Pro Pack owners. I really like the mutliple view ports, no more .rsr referensing, the setup room, animated textures. These are all great features. And I've never made a cent off Poser. Their user base is not just hobbiests, but also professionals who have asked for these features. I have never seen any other software company work so closely with its user base. Try and get Bill Gates to come into a forum like this and answer questions about XP.

"They have grown blind to the real world. Poser will be dead soon."

Anythings possible, but I doubt it.

"They have grown blind to the real world. Poser will be dead soon." This response isn't directed only to the person who originally made this comment, but to respond to this thread as a whole. Having to implement some sort of protection for software is not growing blind to the "real world." It's facing it head on. Smaller software companies such as CL are in a precarious position, because piracy is a serious threat to their survival. I currently own software from at least three other manufacturers that use software locks or authorization procedures, and I'm sure there are many other software manufacturers who are going to implement these types of protection in the near future. I'm sure that most software companies (CL included) would like nothing more than to be able to write software WITHOUT having to worry about piracy issues. But software piracy is a real threat to software companies, no matter how large or small they are. Development and marketing costs are stiff, and if they don't put SOME sort of protection on their software, they'll go out of business. I speak from a unique perspective, because I am a software user who also had the opportunity to work for a major software developer. They implemented a similar authorization scheme that is now used in all of their software. Believe me, it was not an easy decision for the programmers and management to include some sort of protection scheme in their software. They took a lot of heat for it at first from their user base, just as CL is taking the heat now. So let's give CL some leeway and support. They are trying to keep Poser alive and well and living on for those of us who really enjoy using the software. If it means having to authorize yet another software product for me to continue using the "latest and greatest" version, so be it. I'm in! Denise

I remember back in my Apple II days, when companies first experimented with copy protection, 2 things happened before most abandoned the idea: 1) users migrate to reduce hassels, intentionally or otherwise 2) the copy protection breakers ("crackers" today, except downsouth, of course) were always more technically advanced than the prtotection. There were special chips and boards for the Apple II that let you defeat copy protection. Often these items made a lot more money than the programs they were designed to liberate. You could even find them in the back of computer magazines.... The fact that there's now a mass of people on the Internet, which various companies are now using to again justify introducing locked software, will not in my not so humble opinion do anything but caause the past to repeat itself. Often, the more locks you put on a thing make it all that more tempting to steal. I don't buy the argument, might not buy the product, we'll see. I lived in a bad part of town for a while in college. I remember one proposal to deal with drug dealers/crack: for some reason that escapes me, "they" wanted was to eliminate pay phones. I think they actually did that in that part of town. This of course made the neighborhood worse in some ways. Lots of poor folks didn't have phones, and were therefore cut off; or, if something happened to yours, you couldn't call the phone co., and, worst, no longer could you run to a phone to call 911. The powers that be were blinded to all these legitimate needs, or their loss somehow seemed a fair price to pay--inconveniencing people widely. What was the impact on the bad guys? Zero, of course. Completely screwy and really the same thing here. You don't solve a problem by encroaching on legitimate users. Strikes me as shortsighted and bad business. I wish CL would get off this tangent and focus on some new gee-whiz features. That's how you defeat pirates, by making a large amount of people want to buy your software, respect your company, and reward your efforts. --Patrick Snazzy Graphics

"focus on some new gee-whiz features. That's how you defeat pirates, by making a large amount of people want to buy your software, respect your company, and reward your efforts." Though I see your point about creating a loyal following of users by constantly adding new "gee whiz" features, I can't see how that will defeat piracy. A loyal user base can help reduce losses, but it won't totally eliminate the losses that piracy creates. The unfortunate part of the dilemma is this ... the programmers that have the ability to develop and program those "gee whiz" features are very much in demand, and companies have to do a lot of wooing to get them. The more "gee whiz" a program is, the more it costs to develop it. So you have to generate more sales to compensate. Vicious circle, innit? 8-) Denise

It's been said that regardless of what they do, it will be broken (security, of course). I may be entirely wrong with what sort of pirate they're trying to stop, but they're not going to stop those that know what they're doing and know how to get it out. Don't believe me? Windows XP is doing something similar and I bet it gets cracked. Software protection seems more geared towards stopping the casual pirate. SecureROM, SafeDisc, and similar methods stop average people from copying CDs, while you have dongles for preventing installation/usage, which are harder for the common person to get around I would wager (depending on how it is implemented). I don't know entirely where I stand. They should have the right to make and sell a good product without the hassle (and cost of designing and implenting) of creating a security system, but that's not being realistic. However, a system this complex is bound to anger more than one person, not to mention cost a lot of time, money, and effort in development that could be spent on adding/fixing features for the program. Maybe those who make a living using the program will be more inclined to continue supporting CL, but for the people like me who just do it for fun and for a creative outlet with no personal gains other than enjoyment, will we put up with the hassle? I don't know about others, but I know that now I'm going to look around and see what else is available, or maybe I'll just keep what I have now and not worry about getting the next version if it means dealing with hardware codes on a computer that is constantly having hardware upgraded. Higher security at the cost of alienating users, or lower security and allowing the casual pirate (who in many cases wouldn't buy it anyway) to use it. Tough call, especially when you don't have billions of dollars to draw from. Wish them the best, but I hope they're not naive enough to think they're going to stop all piracy. That's just a challenge that's bound to get you in trouble. Don't believe me? Ask Microsoft.

This is a great thread. A few comments: We are taking the real world head on. Poser will only be dead if we don't combat our piracy problem. Anything can be cracked it's just a matter of how much time is required. You will see almost every software maker aside from the OS developers moving towards this. Piracy has become a hobby and it's hurting us. We'd rather be focusing entirely on Gee-Whiz features, or just any features but we also need to ensure our survival. Instead of starting an open source competitor come in and write some code for us pro bono. :) Show us how to do it right. The wish list is still alive and kicking. Some of the stuff was put into Pro Pack. For example "Easier Character Set Up" Pro Pack features were primarily user driven and we'll continue to do that. You can send wish lists to me if you....wish.

A loyal user base can help reduce losses, but it won't totally eliminate the losses that piracy creates. << True. I think nothing will ever eliminate those losses or come close. And as others have pointed, those are potential or estimated losses. So yes, I'm largely saying something like "be a successful enough company to make those potential loses miniscule compared to profits. Drive customer loyalty to the bank." Not to go crazy with the analogies, but take hotels. People steal/misplace/abuse towels and other room goodies. Obviously you can't eliminate or chain 'em down--you'd have a brief run in business and some smelly guests. So what approaches do they take? Some hotels post warning signs, telling you what your towel responsibilities are--pretty cheesy. Others probably go out of their way to do a careful accounting after you leave--bill you, hunt you down, whatever. Still others provide really nice, clean, abundant towels. Maybe throw in a robe, lots of little bottles of bathroom type stuff and possibly don't glue down the tv and the remote. They might charge a little extra, or perhaps have a note that politely says you can buy their items at the gift shop. These are the places I'd rather stay. They have a perceived trust with their customers. Anticipate some loss in exchange for good will; charge a little more to take up the slack. I'm willing to pay it to avoid all that perceived lack of trust and to generally have a better experience. To the business traveler versus the weekend holiday type, these little things really add up to make a big difference. Same deal for the graphics pro: If I need to rip apart a machine for some god awful 11th hour reason--now!--to get some client project out the door on time, I don't want to worry about connecting to tech support, calling anybody, asking permission, and so on. This does come up unfortunately, and it does affect what software I pick and choose. I've crashed more hard drives than I care to remember. That Poser might be tied to a particular machine, a particular hard drive, and 9-5 business hours (or whatever obstruction--the specifics don't really matter--it's all about more effort on my part), that makes it a questionable choice for me to depend on and trust. (Side issue: That it might somehow also add system overhead also concerns me). I wonder what sort of data they have that suggests actual users are pirating the software? Sounds somewhat paranoid to me. Like most software, Poser/PPP was probably available on the warez groups before it was even released to the public. Do the pirates make any art with it? I doubt it. Any case, I'm skeptical because this whole issue is nothing new for the entire industry. I too wish them luck. And will kep you in mind for the wish list there Steve! --Patrick

Here's some gratuitous advice for CL. 1) Never inconvenience a customer. Save falling-out between partners, no other reason causes so many failures. CL should immediately drop its "security" plans if it wants to survive. 2) A good product builds repeat business. "Eyewash" or self-serving upgrades don't cut it. CL should concentrate on their product quality. 3) "Fleas are good for a dog ... keeps his mind off being a dog" It may just be that warez sites keep would-be competitors at bay. I doubt all PPP sales on warez sites would have been CL customers. Ever thought that maybe the problem is that PPP is not as "hot" as CL would like to think it is?

attygww... go into any search engine to look for a Warez forum.... check out that forum for Poser-related posts... you'll find more of those then you will for 3D Studio MAX, Lightwave, or Maya.... Why? Because, the people who download software online can much more easily find those programs? Why is this? Because, CL has invested a large amount of time and money into shutting down the sites that offer Poser and ProPack, because those products are their sole source of income. As per the security... I like, like you, am firstly agitated by the annoyance factor this will present... but I do know for certain, that if I see definitive proof that my initial hang-ups about ProPack have been resolved, as well as them continually adding more features, I'll grin and bear it. It's not worth restricting yourself from using a piece of software because you don't like the installation method, so long as that software works. In my opion, PPP doesn't yet "work". When I see proof that it "works," I'll gladly drop my arguement and deal with whatever additional hassles I have to in order to use the software.... because i know, that if PPP does correctly EVERYTHING it's supposed to, then it would indeed be an AMAZING piece of software. I still won't like the hassle involved with installing Pro... but I'll gladly stomach it to get the better product, and be able to express my artistic vision more freely. (Damn, I'm playing Point/Counterpoint all by myself, aren't I?)

Attached Link: http://curiouslabs.com

snazzy: Thanks for your input. I'd hate to think what would happen on the forum here if we raised the price. Unfortunately many have stolen the towels, soap, maids, and the front desk is next. If we want to keep renting rooms we need to do something. Keep in mind that if it's the eleventh hour you still can install and have that grace period to register, during which time the app is fully functional. attygww 1) We won't drop the security, we feel it's the right thing to do. It's more of an inconvinience to order a book on Amazon, or buy concert tickets on line. We're not the first to do this. Many successful SW companies have done it and you'll see many more. 2) Yes absolutely. The main purpose of this is to fix bugs and we've done a lot of that. We are concentrating on quality and usability. This came out before we were ready and the focus has been on the fear of the unknown not the bug fixes. No ones asking about good stuff. 3)Yes we did consider that, but downloads from About.com and I-drive were tracked at over 1gb per day per account and my best guess was that at any one time there were 5 accounts serving up Pro Pack on each. That tells me that it is a hot product being that it's only a 24mb download. That's two of hundreds of download sites. We could find no warez sites prior to ship and we looked. Would they all have bought? No way, but add it up... 10 or even 5% would have made a huge difference to us and therefore to our legit customers. We'd rather be working on features. Thanks for posting your opinions, they really do matter to us. **************************** Steve Yatson Product Manager Curious Labs Http://www.curiouslabs.com ****************************

Hi maci, you'll be my hero if you could accomplish anything like that. I'm a lousy programmer and I've not much time to spend for such a project but I would do what I can to help you. It's a great Idea, let's keep it alive. To all Just to let you know: I'll remove CL from my supplier list today. As I don't want to get anything for free from this company I'll reinstall my Metacreation Poser4 and use it as long as it is usefull for me. Most work will be done in Lightwave though. I'm very sad about that but I can't tolerate such an assault to my privacy. I'll not spend my money for products that makes my life more complicated and I'm not interested in business connections with people that don't trust me and treat me like a pirate w/o any reason. regards Thomas

1) We won't drop the security, we feel it's the right thing to do. It's more of an inconvenience to order a book on Amazon, or buy concert tickets on line But once you've got the book or the ticket, you've got it, and it won't need reinstalling on an upgraded system, or whatever. And if people can't buy via Amazon they pay cash at a bookshop in the old way, and there are bookshops all over the place, far more than there are software shops. Snazzy (message 7) wrote about when Apple II tried software locks long ago and it failed. Why try it again?

Attached Link: http://www.delorie.com

Maci wrote: *Now I think that maybe it would be better for the whole Poser community if I write a new, open source application that does a few very simple things: 1) open the Zygote/DAZ models I own 2) easily pose them 3) render them 4) export to other applications What do you people think about it? Every comment is welcome.* This happens now with the Gnu software (see this link), which includes a very useful C++ for DOS compiler, and they are writing a C++ for Windows compiler. The IJG software to write and read JPG files is also open-code, and I have helped IJG by finding and reporting some parts of their program text that didn't compile right with a Borland compiler.

Yo Steve. Fact you're up at 2:45 a.m. to follow this thread is illuminating. Forget the spin, you really ought to listen carefully to your customers, they, not warez copiers are your market. Why make unwarranted assumptions about your "competition" from pirate sites. There's a lot CL could do to cut down on piracy short of the program it has embarked on. e.g why put a manual on the CD? If CL stay's the course, I'll bet you a steak it'll have a couple of strong competitors within the year. Concentrate on product and lead the pack, concentrate on pirates and lose the lead. Sincerely gww

{I wonder what sort of data they have that suggests actual users are pirating the software?} Well the copies are coming from somewhere. The choices are CL's servers being hacked A CL employee An employee at the duplication plant A distributors employee A reviewer A physically stolen boxed copy or computer A purchaser A copy stolen from an open access computer eg a computer lab A copy stolen from a computer in for repair My guess would be one of the last three. I'd also guess that it only takes one copy. I wonder why it can't be at least partially tracked through the serial number, or has this been cracked or spoofed on the stolen copies? I don't think the copy protect will stop theft completely but it will make it harder. It might make it traceable. I don't think CL is being arbitrary or malicious in wanting to implement copy protect. I believe it has every right to try to protect its business as it sees fit. I'm sure they've weighed up possible losses of customers against increased sales. I think it'd be a good idea for them to publish details as soon as they can rather than generalities and snippets. (as an aside, security that relies on secrecy generally isn't secure, not that I want/need that level of detail) (As another aside on piracy see if anyone can find the comments by Kai Krausse in the Bryce 2 manual...) My experience of similar schemes does not lead me to believe that any information is collected other than that I'd give in registering the product or purchasing it. It has not affected the working of my computer (crashes just the same;-). The inconvenience is minimal. The benefit is Electronic Purchase direct from maker. I hope that this will be available from CL now. I would also hope that their license would follow Adobe's and others lead and allow an office copy and a home copy as long as they aren't used concurrently. For Maci about Open source project Good idea and competition is always healthy. BUT to program even a limited graphics program I suspect is a vast and complex undertaking. I wish you luck if you try it, I don't have the skills to help. I'd be interested in the results. Apple II and history of copy protect One difference now is the Digital Millennium Copyright Act in the U.S. which makes circumvention devices illegal. Previously various devices while illegal to use were legal to make and sell. (it'll have a couple of strong competitors within the year} A program from scratch in a year I doubt it. Look how hard it is for CL to get Poser5 out the door and they've a huge head start. But as a consumer I'd welcome some competition to give me choice and maybe spur each other on.

I am going to get the propac update because lightwave hosting on the mac DOES NOT WORK!! you people ( CL )owe it to me since i paid for this product based on your written promises What are you going to do when you release this "secure" product and go to the warez boards and see: POSER propac updater+krack Newtek cant stop this!! Discreet cant stop this!! and when Alias/Wavefront releases Maya for the Mac it will be Kracked just like the NT version why not spend money on improving poser instead of wasting it chasing the WAREZ boogey Man who was nt going to buy your $300 dollar app to begin with. Mocap

I don't think CL is being arbitrary or malicious in wanting to implement copy protect. Likely they aren't, and they tried it in good faith, since the generation have passed on that remember Apple trying it on the Apple II and it didn't work; but it still likeliest won't work now.

I should have said: "Apple ][" -- how quickly we forget.... Re Robert Belton and piracy source: The source and tracking issues you bring up are interesting but by "actual users pirating" I meant using the program and distributing to others who would actually use the program. Like some sort of crazy pirate poser sewing circle. This goes to the lost revenues aspect that folks keep mentioning, which from a business standpoint, is a somewhat questionable proposition. You can't put that on your balance sheet as a loss, at least not with my accountant. It is not real, it is an estimate, a potential. What the CL people are saying is maybe 5-10% guesstimate of the ripped off ppp is from people who would otherwise buy the software. They add up thousands of copies of stolen software, think about that percent and translate into people's paychecks and funding. I say that's maybe a thought experiment best avoided. I think if you go further down this here path you get into divergent philosophies, business and otherwise. >> Keep in mind that if it's the eleventh hour you still can install and have that grace period to register, during which time the app is fully functional. << Good to know, that eases some meltdown concerns. On stealing front desk, maids, etc.: If I were to find myself booked at a hotel with bars on the windows, chances are I'm in the wrong part of town. You know, all this stuff is coming to a head fast--why I find this interesting. Copyright issues with everything--books, movies, artwork, software, music. Anything that can be digitized, will be and then will be ripped off. That's an underlying cultural problem. It's not going away. Locks and enforcement of any sort won't stop it. Education might. Interesting times ahead!

"No way, but add it up... 10 or even 5% would have made a huge difference to us and therefore to our legit customers. We'd rather be working on features." I thought that software was priced so high to alleviate that amount of loss? Isn't the sky rocketing price of software due to warez and the potential loss of revenues? That's what all the software companies tell us. So if you stop warez, or at least cut them down, you'd drop the price of the software so everyone could afford it? Don't think so... I guess I'll stay with Poser 4 as well....

We won't drop the security, we feel it's the right thing to do.<<< >>>Thanks for posting your opinions, they really do matter to us.<<< Your final comment is contradicted by your first comment. Your decision was made before you ever came to your customers and asked for their comments and input. That, to me, makes it clear that our opinions do NOT really matter. Sorry, I know that sounds harsh, but right at the moment that is how I feel. I would be curious to know what security consulting firm you hired before you decided on this adventure. Whoever they are, they are out of touch with reality. Your system will be breached, cracked and posted easily within 30 days of initial release. There are at least three cracker groups that will declare it a "holy war" to crack the system. And all three will succeed. It will be a race among the three of them to see who does it first. Ask your security consultant if they know the names of these groups. If they don't, they have no business passing themselves off as "security consultants." If they do and they still advised you to go this route, then I would wager they own stock in the company that created the system you are implementing. Or did you make the mistake of going to a company that also sells security programs or systems?

I do not mind your plans for security measures just so long as: 1)I never have to wait more than 5 minutes to get the authorization, any time of day, any day of the week, including Christmas morning at 12:01 am. 2)I can change the configuration of my system 12 times a day, every day of the year, and never run out times I can get authorization. 3) You do something better with the lighting in Poser, first on the lighting list: OMNIDIRECTIONAL POINT LIGHTING YOU CAN PLACE ANYWHERE AND THE LIGHT FANS OUT IN ALL DIRECTIONS....PLEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAASSSSSSSSSEEEEE!! I am tired of exporting into Vue just to get better lighting.

"Here, here" casamerica and LadySilverMage. Obviously your customers opinions do not matter to you as much as you claim. Or you would listen rather then keep throwing out cheesy analogies that make no sense. As far as other software companies that add locks, want to take a guess how many of them I have on my system? Nevermind...I'll tell you. None. When you start caring about customers more than fighting warez boogey men....I may buy another product from you. Until then, forget it. I don't take kindly to being treated like a thief or having to ask you damn permission when I upgrade my hard drive. One more thing. If Microsoft can't beat the warez pirates and hackers....what makes you think you can? Guess what....WindowsXP aka. Whistler is already out on the warez sites. I've seen people talking about it on other forums. I even saw one person give the URL to download the cracked version before I told the Admin and they deleted the post. Fat lotta good all their security measures did them. Fat lotta good yours will do you. The only thing I see it doing is making myself and several other customers NOT want to buy products from you anymore.

Oh well, this Poser Pro Pack with the software lock will serve as a "dry run" to see how the software lock works, and if the software lock doesn't stop the warezing, perhaps the more important later-coming Poser 5 won't have a software lock.

I hope there's at least as much effort in bug blasting as security locking for PPP. I knew the product was far from perfect, but my Poser is crashing at least twice a session now that I have PPP, the grouping tool is an S.O.B. to use, and I can't import into Max at all. I try hard to be nice and polite on the forum, and I don't fault CL for implementing a security feature to try to protect their property, but I kinda feel like PPP was rushed out buggy on purpose to force us to upgrade to the security lock which wasn't finished at release time. I buy a lot of Poser stuff and I'm getting very depressed watching all my money and hard work crash so frequently. It's difficult to justify spending all this money on a hobby that leaves you screaming at your computer several times a night. Again, I'd feel a lot better about the security lock if I had a fully functional copy of PPP besides just a legally purchased one.

Crescent, I haven't had Poser Pro Pack crash on me at all since I've started using it. You may want to contact Technical support or start a seperate thread here or in the Poser Tech forum with your system specs and maybe some people might have some suggestions for getting Poser to work smoother on your machine.

Everything I've read says the Max plugin and grouping tool issues will be fixed with this patch.