Though I wouldn't have much use for it, I think this would be a helpful tool for those folks it is aimed at.

 However, I am a bit concerned that if it integrates into Content Paradise there are going to be a lot of products there that rely on advanced features found in regular Poser and this could cause a great deal of confusion for the buyer.  I'm not even talking about strand-based hair or dynamic cloth - What about things that rely on or feature morph targets to be useable, or shader materials?

Veritas, et al, I'm getting up in years and maybe I'm just getting too cynical, but I've seen so much deceptive advertising over those years it makes my head spin.

Being donquixote, I would love to live in a society in which false and misleading claims are appropriately punished, but I honestly think that there is so much of it that the FTC must be too overwhelmed to deal with any but the most blatent and harmful violations ... 

As a matter of fact -- not to bash capitalism or "the system" or anything -- but the need to sell something just to eek out a living (or sometimes in the hope that one might actually get rich) makes inveterate, professional liars out of an awfully lot of what would probably otherwise be fairly honest people, from insurance agents, to software developers, to politicians, to advertisers ...

You name the profession. You will find plenty of liars.

I don't like it any better than you do, but things are the way they are ... at least until they are not. Fight the good fight, and good luck with it. But just keep in mind that there is a very good reason that the phrase 'caveat emptor' is from a long dead language and yet remains such a cliche.

Ya know......threads like this one just kind of result in some minor head-shaking on my part.  Frankly,  the near-panicked tone, the general state of high excitement, and the clanging din of virtual sirens and klaxons makes me want to grab a passerby and ask them: "Where's the fire?"

I don't see the need for quite this level of outrage here......about the most that such a matter is worth would be a casual shrug and a 'big deal'.

This is badly overblown.  Sorry, but I'm not going to join the mob.  Whether the target de jour be ef, DAZ, or Rendo........I'll take a pass, thank you.  I'm not going to waste my personal time in bitterly attacking the companies who make my very enjoyable hobby possible.  Even when they show us examples of what highly skilled artists have done with their software -- in an attempt to encourage us to buy said software.

I can't ride a bike like Lance Armstrong does, either.  But that doesn't cause me any heartburn whenever his skill (which I can never match) is used to advertise something.

As the person who created and solely responsible for the video in question, I'd like to respond to some of the criticism in these pages regarding misleading advertising on this PFA video.

First of all, there was no intention whatsoever to misrepresent the capabilities of PFA. The capabilities of the program are spelled out in excess, including feature comparison charts between PFA and Poser on our WEB site. The video was done at such time where we had not yet finished building the application and had no artwork at hand that was created with PFA. Since PFA is based on Poser 6, including its rendering engine, we simply took Poser images and displayed it in the video with the intention of showing what type of art users would create using a similar application.

We did not explain in the video that there was post-processing with some of the art or provided credit of the participating artists (although, as someone pointed out earlier in this thread, we did have signed releases from all the artwork). This was an (unintended) mistake.

E frontier is highly responsive to user input, especially if it is about truth in advertising. While I personally feel that some people in this thread are venting unjustified ill feelings toward EF or PFA, I do think that a clarification is in order.

As such, we will amend the video with an end-page that clarifies the issue regarding the software use in creating the featured images and also provides credit to the artists.

Sincerely,

Laslo Vespremi

Director of Strategic Marketing

E frontier.

Thank you for your kind and professional response.

You guys do a fantastic job.  And many of us are grateful for that.

I applaud Veritas for bringing attention to what amounts to misleading representation of what Figure Artist (on it's own can produce), and eFrontier  for remedying the situation.

Apathy by people, who fail to speak up against misuse, whether it be intentional or not, or who shrug it away as just another of the same-old,  make it possible for them to prolifirate and become common practice, and not just in the microcosm of the single issue in question.  Taking the 'principle to the nth degree " A people usually get the government they deserve." by failing to stand up against abuses and injustices, so people  get  the treatment they deserve whether by software manufacturers or any other providers of  anything at all.

As Laslo explains, it might not have been intentional misrepresentation, "... The capabilities of the program are spelled out in excess, including feature comparison charts between PFA and Poser on our WEB site." - but it indeed did display images which were NOT solely the product of Figure Artist as was claimed.

Veritas, ( does not that mean truth in Latin?) you have lived up to your nic and because of this little furor you will prevent many users misunderstanding what this useful program is capable of out of the box.

And I salute EF for recognizing  the point  and correcting it.   Isn't that what integrity is about?

Yes, yes......we should always be sure to congratulate self-righteous ranting.  To do otherwise would be apathetic.

I'd advise saving the outrage for subjects that are actually worth getting outraged over.  There isn't any virtue in outrage expressed over.......tiny topics.  Like using a sledgehammer to kill a fly.

You might even succeed in killing the fly.  But -- chances are -- you'll do a lot of ancillary damage in the process.

Quote - Yes, yes......we should always be sure to congratulate self-righteous ranting.  To do otherwise would be apathetic.

I'd advise saving the outrage for subjects that are actually worth getting outraged over.  There isn't any virtue in outrage expressed over.......tiny topics.  Like using a sledgehammer to kill a fly.

I'd agree with that it seemed to be a tempest in a teapcup to me and I asked Veritas what it was about this particular ad that was so outrageous compared to a lot of other ads. It might have been standing up for a small amount of truth but I'm betting there was a lot more to the story than just a fight for justice.

I think it depends on who is doing the advertising. laslov said he was the one and he works for E frontier so the company that made the product was making the claims, and it was easier to own up to it.

Most of the time the companies that make the product have different companies that solely do advertising make the videos and they put more effort into selling the advertising campaign than they do the product. They only care if the ad looks good, not what it says about the product.

So it's a good thing that laslov corrected the misunderstandings but I would think that the principle of Caveat Emptor would apply more to this situation.

Quote : "There isn't any virtue in outrage expressed over.......tiny topics."

Priciples are never 'tiny' in my books though you might condsider the issue itself  to  be.
   And even then, someone else who bought the software under a false impression might beg to differ with your opinion.

I certainly would not have been unhappy if I was not able to produce an image close to the one shown. Not from the skill of the producer but  the "look" of it.

I kind of thought the demo video prominently displayed at the top of the Poser Figure Artist Feature page gave you a pretty good impression of what the product is intended for, particularly the painter that talks at length about how she gets use out of PFA... I looked over the sales brag sheet too when shopping for Poser 6 itself and I didn't see anything too awe inspiring on the features list, it only mentions the Cartoon and Sketch render settings...

Quote - Apathy by people, who fail to speak up against misuse, whether it be intentional or not, or who shrug it away as just another of the same-old,  make it possible for them to prolifirate and become common practice, and not just in the microcosm of the single issue in question.  Taking the 'principle to the nth degree " A people usually get the government they deserve." by failing to stand up against abuses and injustices, so people  get  the treatment they deserve whether by software manufacturers or any other providers of  anything at all.

masha, when will you be running for SG of the UN? Just a thought. Might as well take that passion for principle and apply it somewhere where it's most needed and will make a real difference.

Quote - Priciples are never 'tiny' in my books though you might condsider the issue itself  to  be.

:rolleyes:

It is.

Quote - And even then, someone else who bought the software under a false impression might beg to differ with your opinion.

I wouldn't purchase a new stove with the expectation that I'd instantly start cooking just like Emeril, either.  But I wouldn't be surprised to see one of Emeril's dishes used in an advertisement for the stove model.

No more am I surprised to see ef putting their "best foot forward" in their advertising, either.

Anyone who purchased a 3D software package with the expectation of instantly turning out images like a pro with years of experience under their belts needs to make a serious re-evaluation of their expectations.......no more than they could start cooking like Emeril because they bought Emeril's stove.

Quote - We did not explain in the video that there was post-processing with some of the art or provided credit of the participating artists (although, as someone pointed out earlier in this thread, we did have signed releases from all the artwork). This was an (unintended) mistake.

Hrrm... > Quote - "I signed a form which allowed them to use my work, however, I am none too thrilled about having done this noiw, especially considering my work is being used without attribution.

Note that I never was remunerated in any way for allowing them to use my artwork (unnatributed, too!). I never even got a copy of the software." - Elusion

So, Laslo Vespremi, Director of Strategic Marketing, was the unrenumeration, lack of attribution, and lack of crediting and compensation to the artist who's work you lisenced "unintended" also? There's nothing "unintended" in anything that goes into an ad design or marketing campaign. They're planned down to the tiniest detail to elicit and invoke a response and reaction from the viewer. Pull the other one. It's got bells on. I had hoped that e-F marked a change in the ownership of poser. Looks increasingly like I was wrong in giving the benefit of the doubt: only difference going from CuriousLabs to e-Frontiers was a change in names and companies, not in practices.

Quote - > Quote - Priciples are never 'tiny' in my books though you might condsider the issue itself  to  be.

:rolleyes:

It is.

Quote - And even then, someone else who bought the software under a false impression might beg to differ with your opinion.

 

I wouldn't purchase a new stove with the expectation that I'd instantly start cooking just like Emeril, either.  But I wouldn't be surprised to see one of Emeril's dishes used in an advertisement for the stove model.

No more am I surprised to see ef putting their "best foot forward" in their advertising, either.

Anyone who purchased a 3D software package with the expectation of instantly turning out images like a pro with years of experience under their belts needs to make a serious re-evaluation of their expectations.......no more than they could start cooking like Emeril because they bought Emeril's stove.

True, but you would expect to be able to do the same functions on that stove that Emeril did to produce his dish and not need anything else - unless it told you so. And actually if you carefully followed the recipe you might well expect to get quite close.
Nobody expects to be able to produce artwork as good as that shown at first - but they would expect to be able to  at some time in the future using the software they bought. That image was not produced with that software and was postworked. That surely makes it false advertising and as such I would have thought it was not acceptable.

Everyone and I mean everyone who posesses a stove, Emeril or not,  would have a universal understanding that the icing decoration displayed on the cake of his was added afterwards and did not emerge from the oven like that.  Why? Because they have all used a stove.

Can you say that of a specialised program like Poser?   If it claims to be able to produce renders such as the given examples out of the box, then it had better be able to do so, or the claim is inaccurate and misleading.

It's as black-and-white as that, and no I don't believe that there's room here for graduated  shades of grey.

Caveat Emptor, not like the sky is falling ^_^

Oh......it's possible that a newbie wouldn't understand how a cake looked coming out of the oven.  Not everyone has baked a cake in their lifetimes.  And I have seen cakes come out of the oven with some interesting designs, etc. already on the cake.  They weren't "postworked" in.  Familiarity with the basics of cooking or not: most of us just ain't in Emeril's league.

My contention isn't to say that no point exists here -- but I am saying that the central point of the thread is -- at best -- a very minor one: and not worthy of this kind of a forum party.

However: I'll be the first to admit that this type of forum celebration is very commonplace.  Hey -- peace & quiet is no fun.  It's too boring.  If a problem doesn't exist, then we'll all have to get together & make one.  Or else we can also have fun by greatly exaggerating the importance of a truly insignificant "issue".....like the matter at hand.

If something like this really bothered me (which it doesn't) -- then my approach would be to contact ef about it.  Blazing a trail of raging protest over such an incredibly small thing.....isn't my idea of a good use of one's time.

But to each their own.  Speaking for myself: I'd rather watch Emeril cooking shows on TV.  And I don't watch Emeril cooking shows on TV.

Quote - Caveat Emptor, not like the sky is falling ^_^

To listen to the weather report as it's rendered to us by some, you'd figure that the sky had already fallen.  The rest of us are just too dense to understand that we've already been crushed beneath its oppressive weight.

Because if we did understand this truth -- then we'd be just as unhappy as our miserable friends are.  And then we'd be among the "enlightened".

I'd rather take the long view......as in I won't be poisoned by the bitterness of others.  Much as they'd like to spoon-feed their personal unhappiness to the rest of us.

It's nasty-tasting stuff.  Castor oil tastes better.  And at least that way: you'll be getting rid of the problem.  Not imbibing more of it into your system.

Well since Laslo Vespremi cleared up the misunderstanding about why the ad was presented like that, there still is the question of why this particular ad was the subject of such intense scrutiny. 

It's not the only ad that EF has done lately, there have been a lot of complaints about the method of doling out the reasons one at a time in such a teasing manner but I haven't heard anything about them being misleading or claims they can't live up to with the product.

So why the ad for PFA specifically?

Quote: "My contention isn't to say that no point exists here -- but I am saying that the central point of the thread is -- at best -- a very minor one: and not worthy of this kind of a forum party."

    Quote: "If something like this really bothered me (which it doesn't) -- then my approach would be to contact ef about it.  Blazing a trail of raging protest over such an incredibly small thing.....isn't my idea of a good use of one's time."

    Quote: " I'd rather take the long view......as in I won't be poisoned by the bitterness of others.  Much as they'd like to spoon-feed their personal unhappiness to the rest of us.
    It's nasty-tasting stuff.  Castor oil tastes better.  And at least that way: you'll be getting rid of the problem.  Not imbibing more of it into your system."

Do excuse my asking but why are you taking part in this "forum party"   and "imbibing" so heavily? Though your drink of choice might be different you're taking mighty swigs.

Aside from this  somewhat  bemused observation, I can't seem t find the original thread on the eF forum which first brought my attention to this. I must be looking in the wrong place.

As the problem seems now to be resolved, perhaps it would best be served by my ending on this note.

My own "imbibing" consists of pointing out that I am refusing to imbibe the drink that's being offered to us -- because of its unfortunate taste.

As for questioning why others choose to participate in a particular thread -- that's a common tactic in the forum game -- ask 'em what they are doing here (how DARE they express an opinion) -- it's a device that's often used.  It's an argument against the person, rather than against the issue.

Why am I in this thread?  Simple. Because certain on-going efforts to spread poisonous negativity all around need to be resisted.

And, yes -- the situation has been resolved.  Not that mere resolution is likely to end anything.  It's simply too much fun -- that is, until the participants get bored with it, and move on to the next playground fight.  C'est la vie.

Hi Argon,

 Quote:   "It's not the only ad that EF has done lately, there have been a lot of complaints about the method of doling out the reasons one at a time in such a teasing manner but I haven't heard anything about them being misleading or claims they can't live up to with the product.

    So why the ad for PFA specifically?"
   
Well P7 isn't on our boxes yet so how can we tell?

I've been here when P5 didn't deliver what it claimed (for some) -  or delivered it selectively ( Ie:  being dependant on  os', cpus, RAM etc. etc without these exceptions being cited ) - do not wish it on P7. 
eF are the new owners of Poser, and though you can't expect a completely glitch-free launch, there's no reason to anticipate a lack of remedies for same.

On the contrary, this very episode (minor as it is to some) proves that they are willing to look at and  rectify if necessary.  It bodes well.

As to their method of advertising - it's their privilege - and if the complainers are less vocal than the ones who relish just anticipating the treats to come - they will continue to use it for it's perceived effectiveness.

Me, I wasn't completely sold till reason #5 - so if they were willing to wait for my commitment till that stage well so was I.

Xenophonz.

Cheers  ;)

Quote - So, Laslo Vespremi, Director of Strategic Marketing, was the unrenumeration, lack of attribution, and lack of crediting and compensation to the artist who's work you lisenced "unintended" also?

ok.......I'll bite on this one, and may end up with a headache over Thanksgiving for it.
First of all, the artists were compensated when their work was licenced.  EF apologized for their screwup, and is going to put a disclaimer up. 
Second.......when was the last time you saw an ad or commercial list the artists involved with said ad or commercial?  I never have.  But, I may be wrong.  I do that sometimes.  You know.  Be wrong.  It's part of that "human" thing I can't shake.

Anyway, thanks, Laslo, for coming in and clarifying.  I'm sure it's very much appreciated.
Jeni

Quote - On the contrary, this very episode (minor as it is to some) proves that they are willing to look at and  rectify if necessary.  It bodes well.

On this -- we certainly agree.

And cheers to you.........

Xenophonz - well said. 

Fair play to EF on this one. Even though there was nothing wrong in the 1st place. 
Way 2 many mole-mountain-builders want to make something out of nothing. 

Shame really EF have done a darn fine job saving Poser - it could've done died with P5. 
Then what would we have to complain about :)

Quote - Why am I in this thread?  Simple. Because certain on-going efforts to spread poisonous negativity all around need to be resisted.

You can lead the proverbial horse to water, but you can't make him drink.  Well, I mean you can, but that's animal abuse.

Awwww!  I wouldn't abuse anyone here for anything. 

Honest!

Chin chin.

Quote -
ok.......I'll bite on this one, and may end up with a headache over Thanksgiving for it.
First of all, the artists were compensated when their work was licenced.  EF apologized for their screwup, and is going to put a disclaimer up. 

Jeni - I was NOT compensated in any way whatsoever for my art when such was licensed by Curious Labs for inclusion in the Poser 5 manual.
I was not even offered a copy of the software.
I stated this fact in  my post regarding the image that sparked this controversy. 

Moyra

I apologize for the mistake, Moyra.

And I totally understand why you'd have a beef with EF for still using them in advertising....however, I still stand with the fact that, using their claims only, in their advertisements, that it takes lots and LOTS of postwork (or painting or whatever anyone wants to call it) to get results like yours, and that's completely obvious.  That's been my stand all along in this thread.

Quote - > Quote - Why am I in this thread?  Simple. Because certain on-going efforts to spread poisonous negativity all around need to be resisted.

 

You can lead the proverbial horse to water, but you can't make him drink.  Well, I mean you can, but that's animal abuse.

Attempt to force a horse to drink, and the would-be forcer might either find themselves kicked in the head, or else trampled under a foot-and-a-half of water by an 800 pound animal with hard, sharp hooves.  It all depends upon the character of the horse.  Some horses are like that.

@Elusion --

I won't enter into the issue over compensation, as I don't have a dog in that fight -- and as I really have no way of knowing the particulars.

But I will say that I am in awe of your work.  Top stuff.  Beautiful.

Quote - ""I signed a form which allowed them to use my work, however, I am none too thrilled about having done this noiw, especially considering my work is being used without attribution.Note that I never was remunerated in any way for allowing them to use my artwork (unnatributed, too!). I never even got a copy of the software." - Elusion"

Quote - I was NOT compensated in any way whatsoever for my art when such was licensed by Curious Labs for inclusion in the Poser 5 manual.
I was not even offered a copy of the software.
I stated this fact in  my post regarding the image that sparked this controversy.Moyra

Perhaps you should have negotiated those options before you signed over usage of your work. If one gives away his/her work, one can hardly complain their wallet is bare when someone else makes a buck using said work. In other words--How is it e Frontier's fault for using what you gave them without compensating you when you gave them permission to use it without compensating you?

Quote - So, Laslo Vespremi, Director of Strategic Marketing, was the unrenumeration, lack of attribution, and lack of crediting and compensation to the artist who's work you lisenced "unintended" also?

So Ironbear, was the lack of foresight by Moyra to negotiate renumeration, attribution, credit and compensation the result of an evil plot by e Frontier, perhaps they paid Darth Weinberg to use a Sithlord mind trick to make her overlook them. "Pay no attention to compensation...compensation is not what you want."  :tt2:

Quote - "ok.......I'll bite on this one, and may end up with a headache over Thanksgiving for it." - Morrigan

I'll have to throw you back: that hook was baited for bass, not minnows. > Quote - "First of all, the artists were compensated when their work was licenced. EF apologized for their screwup, and is going to put a disclaimer up." - MorriganShadow

I've actually spoken with a few of the artists involved. It is true that their work was lisenced for promotional use - by CuriousLabs, now defunct. As Moyra pointed out. This isn't a first, as even a cursory following of the history of the various poser companies shows. > Quote - "Anyway, thanks, Laslo, for coming in and clarifying. I'm sure it's very much appreciated.

Jeni"

If he'd clarified, I'm sure it would be. No makey. The history of both poserites and Renderosity staff for bending over backwards to excuse the business and ethical shenannigans of the companies producing their pet toy is at least as long as the history of those companies in committing those shenannigans. It's one of the great sources of amusement to be had in poserite watching. It is a pity that e-F seems to be following in the CuriousLabs model, rather than creating their own. splash. Catch and release completed. ;)

Per TAINTED hEART:

Quote - Perhaps you should have negotiated those options before you signed over usage of your work. If one gives away his/her work, one can hardly complain their wallet is bare when someone else makes a buck using said work. In other words--How is it e Frontier's fault for using what you gave them without compensating you when you gave them permission to use it without compensating you?

As far as I know, no one got "remunerated" per se, but some squeaky wheels got a copy of the software.
I was terribly busy, as usual, and didn't take the time to squeak, and then the company was sold, and apparently, my license for the pieces they borrowed for the manual was too. I never expected to see them used again.
As I said, it would have been polite and probably some form of good PR to give the contributing artists a copy of the program, but lack of politeness is not legally reprehensible.
And out of said politeness and in hopes it should gratify you, Tainted, absolutely. My bad, my stupid, my wotevah. I have been doing this for a living since 1992, and I should have known better.
There.
Meanwhile, its been a few  years versions of Poser ago. I learned from the experience.  I try and cleave to the sunnier side of participation, and collaborate for/with those who honor my contributions and hard work.
Moving right along,
Moyra

Quote - I've actually spoken with a few of the artists involved. It is true that their work was lisenced for promotional use - by CuriousLabs, now defunct. As Moyra pointed out.This isn't a first, as even a cursory following of the history of the various poser companies shows.

As is normal in business, when a company is purchased, the purchase can include most, if not all of the companys holdings, which also includes licenses, contracts, and agreements. Nothing evil, underhanded, or unethical about that.

Quote - The history of both poserites and Renderosity staff for bending over backwards to excuse the business and ethical shenannigans of the companies producing their pet toy is at least as long as the history of those companies in committing those shenannigans. It's one of the great sources of amusement to be had in poserite watching.

Using images to promote their products and not compensating or crediting the artists, when the artists agreed to allow their images to be used without compensation or credit is hardly a "shenannigan" nor is it unethical. Seems like you're barking up the wrong tree and maybe even tilting a few windmills.

Quote - As far as I know, no one got "remunerated" per se, but some squeaky wheels got a copy of the software. I was terribly busy, as usual, and didn't take the time to squeak, and then the company was sold, and apparently, my license for the pieces they borrowed for the manual was too.

As there was no agreement for you to receive a copy of the software, complaining about not receiving one is rather indecorous. Who e Frontier or Curious Labs or anyone else decides to give free software to for whatever reason is really no one's business and carping about it sounds a bit like sour grapes.

Quote - And out of said politeness and in hopes it should gratify you, Tainted, absolutely. My bad, my stupid, my wotevah. I have been doing this for a living since 1992, and I should have known better.
There.

No reason to be impolite to me for pointing out the fact that e Frontier used what you gave them to use within the limits of their agreement with you. I get no gratification from the fact the you didn't look out for yourself. You absolutely should have known better and I frankly don't understand how you can be gratified by making e Frontier appear to be accountable for your failure. Being angry with e Frontier and publicly disparaging them because you "gave away the store" is just plain bad form.

Quote - The history of both poserites and Renderosity staff for bending over backwards to excuse the business and ethical shenannigans of the companies producing their pet toy is at least as long as the history of those companies in committing those shenannigans. It's one of the great sources of amusement to be had in poserite watching. It is a pity that e-F seems to be following in the CuriousLabs model, rather than creating their own. splash. Catch and release completed. ;)

Wow, IB.  I'd have thought you'd come up with a stronger argument than "well, Rendo staff have a tendency to do stupid things".  you know.  Because we're not supposed to be human.  I'm sure that the Great and Powerful Ironbear has never ever been wrong or had the need to apologize, or, at the very most, be courteous to professional individuals. 
I don't "bend over backwards" for anyone.  I stopped doing backbends in high school when I quit the cheerleading team.  I do, however, respect the creators of the programs that I use, and if they do something unethical, I typically side with customers, NOT the business side. 
I don't see a thing unethical with E-Frontier using Moyra's art in their advertisement.  Sure, Curious Labs may have pulled one over on her and got away with it by not compensating her for her work, but that's not E-Frontier's fault.  And, while I do respect Moyra and her work (I've said it before, had I not seen her website back in 2000 or 2001, I probably would never have even found Renderosity, let alone the programs that I use today), I don't feel that she's got an ethical argument, above "Man, that sucks!"  I mean, 5 years ago, I most likely would have made the exact same mistake (had I the skills she has, lol.  I have nowhere near the skill in my whole being that she's got in her pinky) and handed over my work, simply because I was flattered.  But, I also know that my onlyl argument would be "Gah, that sucks!!"

Okay, I'm lost....

I got the burger like it is in the purdy picture :P with the fries and a soft drink...value meal (did I remember to say no cheese on that burger???)

But seriously, I think the first thing a person has to do before buying ANYTHING!! Is research everything a product can and can not do, then evaluate their own abilities.

For example, You might be able to create an image like the one in the orginal post, but if I were buying the program, I would have to assume I knew what on earth I was doing. (Do I insert tab B into slot C now?). As Pakled stated...I can now create a reasonable facsimile of a person.

I will admit, I know maybe about 20-30% of Poser 5's true ability, I cant wait to learn the video portion (I wanna see my burger MOVE)

It's the same when I bought Poser 5, I knew it could do lots of stuff, and saw the pictures of what it could do, but by no means did I expect to be able to do it right away. (It took me a month to create a 10 second video clip of fish swimming using Maya 5).

The point is I think people have to do research, and be honest with their own ability. I think we have to hold ourselves accountable for somethings every now and then.

(wondering if I'll get TOS'd for this rant, even though it's not a ranting rant)

Quote - or, at the very most, be courteous to professional individuals.

I'm always courteous to professional individuals.

"I'm always courteous to professional individuals". 

I try to be courteous to everyone. 

Truth be told, most of  us little guys behave better than the so called 'pros'. 
We don't treat people with the arogance and rudeness that some 'top dogs' exhibit.