I know I am probably going to get a lot of flak for this post but just wondered if anyone else missed the Top 20 charts at Renderosity. I'm getting more and more frustrated having to sift through the tons of naked V3's and V4's that are flooding the Galleries.  I know V4 and P7 are just out but maybe the place to post them is here in the forums rather than at the galleries so people can look at test renders if they want and ignore them if they don't. 
There are some top quality images in the gallery but you have to look long and hard to find them and often they are missed because of the sheer number of other  images
The good thing about the Top 20 was that, although there was a certain amount of friends voting for friends going on, the majority of the work in the Top 20 art was of the higher standard. So I tended to just keep an eye on this rather than the main gallery. I'm interested in the finished polished article not the first pass that  someones just rendered and stuck into the gallery.
 
The problem with the current Art charts is that it is not broken down by application as the Top 20 was - this was nice if you wanted to see the best of the best using Carrara say or Vue.

I know art is subjective but in all the time that the Top20 was going there seemed to be a certain standard of images there - things that stood out from the normal plastic looking naked images that is flooding the gallery now. People on the whole voted images there because they were extraordinary.

Just wondered if anyone else felt this way or am I alone in this!
 

How is the top 20 decided, is it number of comments, ratings or added to favourites?

I think it was the total number of votes in a period (never worked out what a period was though). So when people had seen the image they stopped voting for it and it slowly moved down the list. Of course there were people who tried to get friends to vote for their image to keep it at the top but IMO that is just sad and nothing for an artist to be proud of. 

The top 20  also gives you something to work for. If you have produced a particulary great image using a less used package there's a chance that it would get into the Top 20 because lots of people voted for it within that category. With the Art charts there's little hope since it spans all the packages and mediums. 

Keeping an eye on the Top 20 every few days ensured that you never missed any amazing images that were posted.

The good thing about the Top 20 was that, although there was a certain amount of friends voting for friends going on, the majority of the work in the Top 20 art was of the higher standard.
roflmfao.you must have been looking at a different top 20 to the the one i looked at.

"Keeping an eye on the Top 20 every few days ensured that you never missed any amazing images that were posted"
Yeah, I've missed a good few images in the past, only seen them months after they were uploaded because I don't get round to checking the galleries everyday, so it would be good for that.
Actually, thinking about it I think it would be a good idea overall, so long as it was done fairly.

The top 20 went on votes in a given period, it's lack of fairness was put into stunning clarity by someone whose name escapes me, who put up an image of poor quality deliberately [no disrespect intended] and then asked evryone to vote for it which they did.
The result was it went straight to the top of the top 20 which effectively proved the point that it "could" easily be manipulated!
Good riddance IMHO, art shouldn't be competitive!

fixer
Actually its not a competition. It just sorts out the pictures that people in the wider community think is worth voting for and those that are not. Fixing votes goes on but they reach the top and then quickly fall away and artists that do that gain nothing apart from the quick thrill of seeing their image at the top for a bit - they don't get any respect as an artist.
The Art charts can be manipulated in the same way for that matter.

Oh, and Soultaker, I stand by my comment that on the whole the images in the Top 20 were of a better standard. Maybe there was less nudity there as better images didn't just do nudity for nudity's sake, but if thats all someone is after then the regular Gallery is sure to please.

Quote - The top 20 went on votes in a given period, it's lack of fairness was put into stunning clarity by someone whose name escapes me, who put up an image of poor quality deliberately [no disrespect intended] and then asked evryone to vote for it which they did.
The result was it went straight to the top of the top 20 which effectively proved the point that it "could" easily be manipulated!
Good riddance IMHO, art shouldn't be competitive!

Neigh! tell me it isn't who I'm thinking it was? If it is I'm one of the people who voted it to the top ;)

Personally, I think the Art Charts are a great improvement over the old Hot 20.  While not perfect, and also subject to some manipulation, the Art Charts provides a much greater range of styles and applications than I ever saw in the Hot 20.  I like being exposed to new kinds of art.

Suggestions for expanding/improving the Art Charts: I'd like to see simple categories of "Most Commented" and "Most Viewed" in addition for "Most Favorited" for particular works.  

As did I Lucifer, but it did prove the point, and it's common knowledge that it was manipulated by some which is why it was changed to the current system. The Hot 20 or top 20 whatever it was called caused more problems and arguments than it was worth, pretty much like this thread will [no offence intended], it is clear that the present system, whether you agree with it or not causes less resentment and calls of fixing the vote than the old system!!!

I don't see how a top 20 is going to help you pick out the "good stuff" from the "junk" (some of which is certainly my own stuff).  You'd just basically be putting down your lot with the masses of people who vote, there's no connection to quality there.  Me, I can skip pretty much all of the over-airbrushed Luis Royo clones regardless of the obvious skill it might require to produce them, but then I'm a clod with no taste.

I do think the current "ratings" system here is a bit silly, you might have Rembrandt fire up some masterpieces and he'd never get onto the top charts because there are people with 50,000 hits that he'd have to pass up.  I'm not saying I have delusions that any piece I'll ever do will pluck the hearstrings of every human being on Earth, I'm realistic about that, but I've seen some really stunning pieces e.g. Tendom's Anna render "Remembrance" that will never make the chart.  One of my favorite images ever in any medium:
http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/index.php?image_id=1332723
.... 173 views.  11 ratings.

I won't name names or anything, because that would be unkind to the many hard-working artists already on the chart, but come on.  :blink:
(and Tendom I see you online now, you are my hero, your work has inspired me as much as anybody's).

sigh

I used to love the hot 20.   On the few occassions I hit it, I felt really good about my accomplishments in my artwork.   Granted, I would upload a picture, and leave it to fate if anyone voted for it, or not.

Though of course, we practice art for our pleasure, and for the creative state.  But I would be lying, as I think many would be, to say we don't strive to improve, for excellence, and enjoy recognition for skilled or hard work.

Sadly the hot 20 was flawed, as the aforementioned proves, of just having friends vote just to rack it up the chart.  Every one likes some kudos now and again, and that was one way to get it.  Too bad it never really worked perhaps the way it should.

errrrrrrr..... in a word, NO.

Seems a shame that there are a lot of images that a lot of hard work has gone into , never actually get seen. because of all the rubbish that gets posted (no offence, but some of those gallery images are just a nude posed figure directly from Poser with some freebie prop thrown into the mix)

Maybe Renderosity could come up with a better technique for preventing abuse of it. The bottom line is I don't want to miss great images but I don't want to have to wade through images that are obviously not that great from anyone but the artists point of view. 

**How about this for an idea 

 Images that get more than 20 votes (from different people) gets automatically thrown into another gallery and stays there. Sure , friends of friends will vote to push an image in but hopefully there will be less 'standard' ones to wade through.
At the end of the day its about personal pride of your art. If an artist needs to resort to vote fixing to get their image noticed then thats the artists problem - they will know themselves that their work had to be 'cheated' in and the rest of us can just skip over the image.

 
**

I agree with your message, I do but you can't get away from the FACT that some people get 40+ comments because they network better, NOT because the art is better!
You'll never get past that, ever!

Either it's a free vote, in which case it is open to abuse, or it's restricted to "the cool voters you trust", in which case it's already abused.  Isn't there a favoriting system that lets you know when an artist you like posts an image?  that doesn't do what you want it to?

^_^

yeah, i have to agree about network vs. artwork comment from thefixer.  i never saw anything in the hot 20 i was very impressed by.  and a lot of stuff here does impress me. that is, i saw some skill (but that varied) and very, very little vision or creativity.  frankly, the same is true but more so at artzone, imho.  i've got a huge list of bookmarks of truly great fine artists who are doing incredibly creative work, but just about never in any of the important listings, and their works seem to get few comments.  conversely, i've seen quite mediocre work have 10 or more comments. as much as i think artzone is a nice idea and cool site, it works best for the very popular and gregarious who like to fit one of the various mainstreams. 

if you base merit on anything other than independent judging (a set of judges external to the community), networking and personality have an undue role.  if you take votes from the community, you're going to end up (in general) with the most derivative and least innovative,  the most mainstream and least edgy, the most personality based and least objective results.  not only is it democratic (which means the most median is picked, not the best), but it takes place within an online community.  if all we could do is post pictures and this wasn't actually a community site, then yeah, such things would be a way to see what people thought of the pictures alone.  but it's not.  we all have our very natural reactions to each others' personalities.  if we like someone, we don't want to rank them low or do anything that might hurt them.  if we don't like someone, we're probably not very inclined to go out of our ways to do nice things for them.  that's fine and makes sense, but it doesn't have a thing to do with quality artwork.

if people want a "people's choice" gallery, i think that's fine.  a name like that would make it obvious that it's something of a popularity contest. but if we're going to have a "best of..." gallery, i'd rather have specific judges, preferrably ones with external to the site who only look at artwork.  like retired art directors or someone else with experience, free time to look through the galleries, and a trained eye.

I'm glad the top 20 is gone.  I don't come here for networking.  I come here for art and to post my own feeble attempts at it.  I'm not very good but then, there were some images in the top 20 that were no better than some I did myself.  I'm not aware of this new system "art charts" and will have to check it out.  It's been a very long time since I posted anything and I'm trying to come back to the community.

The fair thing with the art charts is that "what goes up must come down" thing - because once someone adds an artist as a favorite this "vote" is counted. And there comes a day when there are so many people that list you as a favorite that the amount of new "favs" grows far slower as it does in the beginning (sorry if this sounds complicated - I try my best to express my thoughts in english). Okay, you can manipulate it by deleting the favorite and adding it again. But how many people will bother with this and how often?! This makes it much more easy to "enter" the charts as a beginner. I recently found some people that had just round about ten (excellent) images in their gallery.

The unfair thing is the same. It's a question of mathematics - when you start here there are so many people that havn't add you as a fav, if you are an "oldie" there are just a few new users each day.
Networking... well... Regarding the flood of new images each day it's hard to be up-to-date with all the new works that are worth our interest. And the more time you spend here the slower grows your favorite-list. Simply because you don't have the time to see and comment on all of the postings.

As for your question: No, I don't want the Top 20 back. I was always irritated that 3/4 of the images in there where of the same kind. Not that I dislike a Vicky with flowing clothes and shiny long hair smelling on a flower - but I always asked myself why people seem to dislike all the other sujets. Linkdink brought up a good idea: Most viewed and most commented, yes, that could be a good idea.

StealthWorks
I really am pleased you stand by your comment, its yours, you are free to say whatever you wish, as i stand by myne , it sucked for reasons said in the above posts

Poser Top 20 - a higher standard? Not even close. Nearly every pic I ever saw in the Poser Top 20 looked effectively just like every other. Yawn! Sometimes a good pic did make it through, I will admit. But most of it appeared to be just mutual masturbation with smudge tools. Personally, I detest having software-centric galleries or contests. Purely devisive and takes the focus off the art and onto the software. No wonder people call it "computer generated" art. No, the Top 20 was beat, glad to see it go!

I never much cared for the Hot 20.  Too many images that were too similar (usually Vicky airbrushed to within an inch of her life). 

I wish they'd reinstate the "staff picks" though.  They were usually more interesting. 

one "no" vote from me on hot 20. legume showed, several years ago, that it's totally invalid, a bankrupt concept.

No ;)

"Okay, you can manipulate it by deleting the favorite and adding it again. But how many people will bother with this and how often?! "

Just to clarify , this wouldn't work. The system will only count it once. If you delete and re add, it doesn't count the add again from the same member. Just an FYI. 

This is one of the things the programmers put into place to cut down on abuse of the ArtCharts as we did not want to go back down the Hot20 path of abuse.

NO to Top 20!!! It's gone and lets keep it that way. It was totally unfair to all artists here. It was really only for a selected few that could get their friends to vote their image to the top, even if it was good or bad.

*This is one of the things the programmers put into place to cut down on abuse of the ArtCharts as we did not want to go back down the Hot20 path of abuse.

*Clever!

Top 20?...no.

It was a good idea very badly implemented & severely "raped" by a select few & their buddies to ego stroke each other, maybe once a month something that did actually deserve to be there managed to scrape it's way into the 20. On the whole though it was a waste of bandwidth as it was.

No. I got tired of seeing the same three or four people have three or four images listed in the 20 week after week.

I've had several images make it into the Hot 20, no airbrushing, lol, but it did give me a boost of morale. And I see that this week I am actually #13 in the Favorite Artists list. Surprised me!

NO!  It's very refreshing to see talent from the galleries that I haven't had time to visit.  I"m glad the artcharts are all lumped together. :biggrin:

Yeah, staff picks were cool. Got to see a lot of stuff I woulda missed otherwise. I wasn't aware of the ArtChart thing. Off to discover...

Quote -

I wish they'd reinstate the "staff picks" though.  They were usually more interesting. 

We will ;)  I can't give an exact time, but hopefully soon.  ;)

No. It was the most useless feature on this site. It was easily manipulated and the same people were in it time and time again. Not that some didn't deserve to be, but some were in it because they learned how to manipulate the system.

Hot 20....No from me too.  I visited it maybe twice a month and also saw the same ol same ol time after time. Boring... Crusise through the "What's New" Section. All kinds of art in that section Lots more fun imho.

Quote - Too many images that were too similar (usually Vicky airbrushed to within an inch of her life).  

OMG! That made me laugh!  It's soooo true.  I actually find myself bypassing such images these days. I don't mind seeing a bit of post work, but when the image is 95% post work as some people do, it just loses it's appeal to me.

I can see painting hair if you're good at it because it does lend itself to more "realistic" images because poser hair doesn't tend to follow the pose for the most part, unless it's dynamic of course. But some don't stop there.

I'm not going to name names, but there are 4 artists in the gallery that I can't tell their images apart from one another because they all look pretty much the same. They're all so post worked to death that I have to stop and look at the name of who created it. Now some might think that's a good thing because maybe they were trying to emulate someone else, but to me they've lost any indiviual style that they might have ever had and are simply knock offs of someone else's style.

I am of the same opinion - while I certainly recognize it takes a lot of skill with Photoshop or whichever app you might be using (skill which I lack, I'll be happy to admit) they all just don't grab me too much, too foggy and too much separation from reality.

Yup. Now I must admit I paint my hair and sometimes my clothes. Especially when I can't find the kind of outfit I want >:)   I agree though. It is hard to tell sometimes :(  * not to mention the jealousy part of it *  :biggrin:

i don't think the post working is the issue.  after all, it's easier to have an individual brush style than create an individualized render from someone else's content.  i think it's that one type of postwork reigns.  frankly, i'm not impressed by the work of royo, and i've thought boris vallejo's work was drek since i was 13.  so people copying their styles doesn't appeal to me. 

people get rewarded for doing the same old romantic or fey or sf stuff in the same old styles by popularity. i don't think that postwork should be put down any more than poser should be.  it's not the tools, it's the artists using them.

i've seen brilliant work that was painted digitally, and if somone used poser as a base for reference, i think that's excellent.  it really strikes me how many cgsociety people hate poser but then give critiques of purely painted works like "your proportions are off,"  or  "you didn't handle that foreshortening quite right," or "the lighting is inconsistent."  helping get that stuff right is what poser was for in the first place.    but then, maybe they looked at the hot 20 and had the same problems with it that we had, and decided that if that was the best of poser, that it wasn't a very good program.   where here the opposite is done, and we decide the fault is in the postworking programs and techniques that work for them are the problem.

Quote - The top 20 went on votes in a given period, it's lack of fairness was put into stunning clarity by someone whose name escapes me, who put up an image of poor quality deliberately [no disrespect intended] and then asked evryone to vote for it which they did.
The result was it went straight to the top of the top 20 which effectively proved the point that it "could" easily be manipulated!
Good riddance IMHO, art shouldn't be competitive!

LOL sounds like Doc Legueme and the infamous pink pony :P

No.

Yeah, I'm completely against a "Hot 20" or whatever.

One trick I've found for finding great pics (especially older ones, since I'm fairly new to the galleries) is whenever I find an artist whose work I enjoy, I always check out his/her favs.  I inevitably see some more art and artists I enjoy and check out their favs.  I wasted away an entire day off of work doing this once.  I was online for over eight hours, I swear and I never saw a bad picture.

We have to all admit, we have our own tastes.  I like Sci-fi, I like fantasy, I like horror.  I like Boris inspired pics and I've seen some amazing postworked images that I love.  Not everyone is going to liek what I like and I'm not going to like whatever anyone else likes.

I do like the idea of the staff doing suggestions, though, because I enjoy seeing new art and it would be nice to be pointed occasionally to a gem that I missed.

But seriously, the whole voting and comments system is a complete waste of time as a way to see if a pic is any good.  I get great comments on stuff that i post as works in progress (when what I am hoping for is some tips or some feedback as to if I am headed ina good direction).

I am also a comment whore.  I love getting comments and I know that if I do an IBL rendering of Vickie with massive breasts I'll get a lot of comments.  I've tested this theory, my most commented, faved and viewed pic is one with such ridiculously massive breasts.  Mind you IMHO, it is a good pic, but I do believe I have better in my gallery.  My personal favorites are the least commented and the least viewed.  They are a bit more artsy and therefore, not what people generally are looking for.

Naw, trust me, there are some great works out there, but there is now easy way to find them, you just have to do the leg work.

I never meant to imply that I think postwork is fundamentally poopy - just when it's slathered on with a trowel

no

Can I add my "NO" as well?   On occasion it showed great talent but for the most part, it was manipulated to it's death by one particular group. 

I concur with those against the idea of re-introducing the Top 20.....despite the protestations that it wouldn't again be just a buddy's ego-trip back-slapping club, this is precisely what it would turn into again...and it's good to see works by those artists who wouldn't otherwise make it onto any Top list.

NO, definately not. Top 20 was a joke. Imho if you want to see the 'top' work you just have to have a fast internet connection and spend the time and take your chances. Add artists you feel 'safe' about in terms of what you consider quality to your favorites list. Going by "most commented" and "most viewed" will never show you the "top" either, just the most popular or the most naked .

I'd give it a pass. I do 'fess up that I never voted (or haven't in years), added anyone to favorites, or visited anyone's top 20 more than 3 or 4 times in 6 years (usually because of some controversy).

I don't care about rankings or 'amen corners', I just like good art (which is probably erroneously defined as 'stuff I like'.;) I appreciate people who comment, and always respond to them if they've left a comment. And that's good enough for me.

I think you guys might be referring to the 'pink pony' incident, about 5-6 years ago (either right when I joined, or just before). Someone put up a pink pony, and it got voted into to top 20.

So unless you go for a 'Poser Select Gallery', that's judged by some 'experts' (quod custodiam custodiat...I think..;) and kept up that way, it's going to be problematic as to which stuff gets into the 'winners' circle. Of course, I do look at all the pictures I can, so I see them regardless of which rating they get.

Quote - I think you guys might be referring to the 'pink pony' incident, about 5-6 years ago (either right when I joined, or just before). Someone put up a pink pony, and it got voted into to top 20.

Nope, not at all.  It was happening with most everything long after the pink pony before the Top 20  was taken down.

and before it.  the pink pony was proving the point that popular != best.

No to the Top 20 from me too. 

But I do miss the staff picks. Those were generally high quality images. Certainly not always my preferred style, but I haven't seen one single "bad" image in the staff picks ever.