Wow, V4 is hot. There aren't that many morphs, but every one is useful. I made this knockout face and body turning maybe 15 dials. These morphs are excellent. Hopefully we'll no longer see a million renders with the same high-cheek-boned-bulbous-lips character. She could use a few more nose morphs and you need more ways to alter the area around the eyes. They included a couple really good eye morphs, but to get into celebrity lookalike territory, you're going to need more.

I didn't do so good a job matching the bikini to the body. Don't really get why the identical settings didn't do it. And am I dreaming, or did I see someone mention that the clothes are supposed to track the body morphs automatically somehow?

And hooray for Daz, she comes with a proper default shader. I'm using the standard textures here. Guess what, the shader seems to be:

1. A variation of the fake SSS I posted a while back involving Diffuse plugged into a Color Ramp with some red in the lower end.

2. A variation of the specular shader from face_off real-xyz products.

So right out of the box, her skin looks pretty good. All I did in this image is I raised the amount of SSS - they had it really low by default.

Her texture is pretty nice as is. I didn't do any extreme closeups. Could be an opportunity for more skin work there in the shader, like moles and such.

See, I thought the materials looked great too ^^

I am very impressed with how bendy she is without showing a lot of creasing, I don't think you could get V3 to pose like this without a lot of folding and spindling and mutilating:
http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/index.php?image_id=1343887

pjz99 - Oh yes bendy as heck. You're render is the most extreme I've seen and she holds up well there. Thanks for showing that. I'd already seen a few bend demos, and figured that was pretty convincingly improved on this figure. I'm very impressed with her.

and you CAN NOT get arms like that from any prior Vickie. Beautiful, shapely shoulders and arms. I have been a heavy detractor of Daz, but I salute them today. (wish the underarm cut did not come up so high, though.)

bb, thanks for contributing to the betterment of VickieSkin everywhere!

::::: Opera :::::::

Did you magnetize the clothes :)

Opera,

Yeah that underarm cut bothered me too. Everthing is so good now, such a tiny flaw jumps out at you. 

I dialed in a little biceps flex, some thin arm, some fitness, and those arms were there. I was so suprised how easy it was to get that "glamorous vicky" look out of the box.

Bea - No I did not. I got too carried away just clicking. I didn't read anything while paying attention!

Now that you triggered my memory of the key word, I am able to search all the threads about this already. Thank you for the tip.

Teriffic BB.

I am still "dormant" even though I downloaded the V4 base, so no V4 images from me yet. I won't begin working with her until I receive my Box shippment of Poser 7. I'll purchase Colm's Sydney morphs and probably give Sydney one day to show me something equal to what you've posted here. But if not, 'Hello Vickie!"

I have dissed Daz for so long, I cannot believe I am on board. Wonder what M4 will be like and how soon?

::::: Opera :::::

Baggins,

Very nice work, I believe we have seen the deathknell for V3.  Even after reading all of the complaints about V4, I can only say one thing, WRONG!  Vicky 4 is an excellent model to work with and so very easy to get a different looking character every time, versus the clones V3.

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/index.php?image_id=1344561

hoppersan2000
i just looked at your render.

Will you allow one suggestion? Spinning the dials bagginsbill references in post six above you would morph her arms a little and doing nothing else you could change your render from good to great. I say this not because you did anything badly, but because it appears the default v4 arms lack definition/tone, and bb certainly attacked that in his render above.

Only a suggestion, take it or leave it.

::::: Opera :::::

well, from what I've seen, they've got rid of pipe-cleaner arms - they look pretty natural!

Sheila

The midriff and chest and hips are really fantastic to work with, you have a lot of flexibility to get the look you want.  IMO the head takes a lot of work to move very much away from the default, but that's okay, I think the results are worth it if you put the time in.  I'm still noticing that most of the V4 renders that the face looks very similar - good though, and the quality of how the parts fit against each other is wonderful.  Just they all tend to have the same eyes.  It's taken me a lot of tweaking and fiddling to get my first main effort to look really different in the face but still look good (to me anyway). 

bagginsbill - You've done a good job there, she looks incredible!
I'm hoping for the extra morphs soon before I really get into character creation with her. Now that I've played with the morphing tool in Poser 7, making little details, especially in portraits is going to be fun!

Yeah, excellent work there BB, I'm hoping to see more in your gallery!...IF you can tear yourself away from the Node-room that is!  I've spent so much time there, I've only came up with a new one every 1-2 years!

Tak,

Exactly - all my time is in making shaders, which I almost never use for anything!

Nice!!  Are those the standard DAZ Textures with no shaders?   

Nakamuram,

When you said "those" to what were you referring? The image I'm posting is the DAZ standard SHADER. To use the textures without a shader, you'd have to edit the materials. Meaning the standard Texture with about 10 shader nodes is how V4 comes from DAZ.

As I said in my original post - QUOTE:

I'm using the standard textures here. Guess what, the shader seems to be:

1. A variation of the fake SSS I posted a while back involving Diffuse plugged into a Color Ramp with some red in the lower end.

2. A variation of the specular shader from face_off real-xyz products.

So right out of the box, her skin looks pretty good. All I did in this image is I raised the amount of SSS - they had it really low by default.

Thanks for the explanation bagginsbill.  Sorry I forgot that DAZ had their own shaders in the V4 textures.   When you say "raised the amount of SSS", what exactly do your mean?

Quote - Tak,

Exactly - all my time is in making shaders, which I almost never use for anything!

:lol: Looks like we're cut from the same cloth then, as I've been locked in my "Room" trying to improve my skin-node, and thanks to your tips<-- My FS shader no longer BLOWS up using IBL! ;) } I've been busy optomising several different shaders sepreate from each other based on IBL lighting for outdoor scenes, and Non-IBL for My chiaroscuro lighting style, that I love so much!

Further, I DL'd the Modo 2.02 demo, and am currently using it's native SSS Shaders as a guide for my P6 Shaders! Although, the time spent on learning Modo's shaders takes me away from my Node addiction!

V4 has awful joints. This will need lots of postwork at least as much as for V3, so whats the point to buy her and her whole closet etc. too? This is nothing for me. I belong to the lovers of V3, Miki and Aiko. :)

BelleStudio,

When you use the word "awful", I have to wonder what you mean?

One meaning (the original) of awful is "inspiring awe or fear". I'm guessing that isn't what you meant?

The other meaning is generally accepted to be "extremely bad; unpleasant; ugly" - to which I have to respond with "what are you smoking"? I'm not going to argue that V4 joints are indistinguishable from real human joints. But what you're saying make no sense. Let's define the "envelope" of a character as the set of poses within which the appearance remains somewhat realistic, with only minimal distortions. I'm of the opinion that V3's envelope is much much smaller than V4's. I can't imagine anybody ever thinking that a fully bent V4 hip or knee is real, but come on, are you seriously suggesting this is not an enormous improvement over V3? So is her  envelope 100%? No way. But V3's envelope was closer to 10%, meaning 90% of the poses you could plausibly see a human making did not look real on V3. I'd venture to say that V4's envelope is at least 30% and maybe 50%, depending on how picky you are.

Don't show me an example of a V4 joint that looks fake. Any noob can find those. Show me examples of V4 and V3 joints in similar positions, where the V3 looks more real than the V4 joint. As far as I can tell, that's pretty difficult. On the other hand, I can show you at least a dozen distinctive V3 pose failures that V4 has corrected. I don't know why you used the word "awful", unless you're a troll, because it is certain the V4 will require less postwork than V3.

Today I took a tour around my master Runtime, looking for all the pose-sets I'd acquired over time. I also visited all the newer ones that came with figures, from Ben to LaRoo! I wanted to see how V4 would take it.

I have an old set of 74 poses called "Digiport Classic" I tried out about 30 of them....they work! Or rather, V4 works. The images I am posting here received NO ADJUSTMENT after applying the pose. V4 even takes the James and Jessie poses that came with P5 and P6. Occasionally one needs to tweak after applying the pose. V4 takes the new "universal poses."

First, it is great to have a reborn library of poses for Miss Four. But what is remarkable is how well this model bends. I am astounded. 'nuf said, here come the images.

::::: Opera :::::

Quote - BelleStudio,

When you use the word "awful", I have to wonder what you mean?

One meaning (the original) of awful is "inspiring awe or fear". I'm guessing that isn't what you meant?

The other meaning is generally accepted to be "extremely bad; unpleasant; ugly" - to which I have to respond with "what are you smoking"? I'm not going to argue that V4 joints are indistinguishable from real human joints. But what you're saying make no sense. Let's define the "envelope" of a character as the set of poses within which the appearance remains somewhat realistic, with only minimal distortions. I'm of the opinion that V3's envelope is much much smaller than V4's. I can't imagine anybody ever thinking that a fully bent V4 hip or knee is real, but come on, are you seriously suggesting this is not an enormous improvement over V3? So is her  envelope 100%? No way. But V3's envelope was closer to 10%, meaning 90% of the poses you could plausibly see a human making did not look real on V3. I'd venture to say that V4's envelope is at least 30% and maybe 50%, depending on how picky you are.

Don't show me an example of a V4 joint that looks fake. Any noob can find those. Show me examples of V4 and V3 joints in similar positions, where the V3 looks more real than the V4 joint. As far as I can tell, that's pretty difficult. On the other hand, I can show you at least a dozen distinctive V3 pose failures that V4 has corrected. I don't know why you used the word "awful", unless you're a troll, because it is certain the V4 will require less postwork than V3.

I think it is time for you to quit the kindergarden: Are you really convinced that making people bad will settle your point of view as a general truth? Real arguments do not need any nasty words or defamations like "what do you smoke" or "picky" and so on(!) So you think your point of view should be shared by the whole world? This will disappoint you. I wrote my opinion on this topic and your post certainly did not change anything in it since it is not an adults one obviously. You cannot discuss any facts but only your bruised ego ;) @Operaguy: Thank you for your artful renderings and your help. I never use such poses and I think I can recognize postwork when I see some. I have done enough myself. :)

that last comment makes me extrememly happy. if an antatonist thinks there was postwork in my images, all the more does that extol the power of the tools. Thank you kind friend.

There is no postwork whatsoever in my images above. NORE DID I ADJUST ANY POSE after clicking on it in the library. Those are all canned poses. V4 takes poses like nobody's business.

Happy that I am me, and not...well you all know how that finishes.

::::: Opera :::::

BelleStudio your post must be one of the "im overly sensitive" posts i have ever seen on the internet.....ever.....  Man am i impressed... its the first time i have ever in my life seen anyone take actual offence to normal everyday phrases which would not insult 99.99999999% of the human population....

Congrats..... :D

hhmmm or could it be you could not think up a counter point to bagginsbill's post so you decided to try and change the topic by going "im so hurt and offended" ?????

I think i shall go with the  "im overly sensitive" theory.... congrats again for being the most emotional sensitive person on the planet !!!! :D

*Nakamuram asked:

When you say "raised the amount of SSS", what exactly do your mean?

*Whoops, sorry I missed your question. I meant that in the default V4 shader there is a Color Ramp node that controls the amount of extra red that is generated in order to simulate subsurface scattering, also known as SSS. The max value in the node was Red 21, and I raised it to 42. This made the SSS effect stronger.

**thefunkyone_4ever,

**I appreciate you chiming in there. Being fairly certain I made no ad hominem attack, and even more certain that I received one, I'm just not going to respond.

Bagginsbill,  you did wonderful! She's lovely!
Operaguy, thank you for showcasing! Gorgeous!

If anyone has a problem ahem with V4 joints, perhaps you may wish to view Jim Burton's Bending Test:
http://poserpros.daz3d.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=57262

Quote - BelleStudio your post must be one of the "im overly sensitive" posts i have ever seen on the internet.....ever.....  Man am i impressed... its the first time i have ever in my life seen anyone take actual offence to normal everyday phrases which would not insult 99.99999999% of the human population....

BelleStudio is far from being the only one. Such rude comments written against her as above are not alowed in other boards. If I were you which I am not -grin!- I would not act as if it were all normal because it is not!

Quote - Bagginsbill,  you did wonderful! She's lovely!
Operaguy, thank you for showcasing! Gorgeous!

Dont care HoneyBelle, this is exactly what this guy wanted to hear as he started the thread and not your personal opinion ;-) By the way these guys must be living in the Thunderdome where discussions are made that way: made some rude comments then hit the opponent down :-) In our civilized cities we do it the civilized way :-)

Quote - > Quote - Bagginsbill,  you did wonderful! She's lovely!

Operaguy, thank you for showcasing! Gorgeous!

Don´t care HoneyBelle, this is exactly what this guy wanted to hear as he started the thread and not your personal opinion ;-) By the way these guys must be living in the Thunderdome where discussions are made that way: made some rude comments then hit the opponent down :-) In our civilized cities we do it the civilized way :-)

Ummm, not sure what you mean here......I'm not HoneyBelle (?).
I have V4 and I like her just as much as V3 &  Aiko, I'm complimenting their work, leaving their other issues out of it.

I have lurked in Rendo forums for awhile, I don't care for alot of the attitudes that floats here (Rendo in general), which is why I do not post here much if at all.

Ok now since others are jumping on here I've got to say something.

I'm really mystified by what's going on here. When the comment was made about the joints being aweful, I made an amusing allusion to the possibility that the speaker was experiencing reality in some altered way, because all the evidence that everyone is posting shows that V4 joints are better than V3, not the opposite.

Since the comment, paraphrased, was essentially V4 is aweful and V3 is not, that seemed like a pretty odd, and in fact provocative thing to say. I did not attack anybody.

However, I'm certain that I was attacked. Considering that I have made over 500 posts, and in almost all cases those posts have  been to help people get the most out of Poser, especially shaders, I don't get where you guys are coming from. Why are you lumping me in with a generalized rude group?

I'm not suggesting anybody has to agree with me that V4 is an improvement. However, if anybody wants to make a judgement of any kind, I believe they need to support that judgement with some evidence.

I was accused of failing to deal in facts. That very accusation is rude. The improvements in the joints have been shown. Show me the ones that justify the opposing view.

And I'm not in kindertgarten, either. :)

I've decided to start up a new thread specifically about V4 taking legacy poses. If you wish, check it out, called "Nude V4 In the Reflection Studio with No Postwork". I'll just post one of the images here.

::::: Opera :::::

::::: Opera :::::

There is a difference in language and culture here.  I'm sure nobody meant to be particularly rude to anybody.  "What are you smoking" is just an American saying that means you disagree, it isn't intended to seriously hurt anyone's feelings or insult.

OG you need to tag your posts for nudity or the mods are gonna yell at you ;)

As far as I could read (and I know BelleStudio from another board) some comments like these should be avoided on any board: 'why do you smoke?* or 'picky' when you do not know whom you are talking to. Not all of us are native speakers. The same thing for asking about a word like 'awful'. I know too that many jerks are waiting around in Renderosity and thats why I barely post here. But for Gods sake if you start a thread call it the right way like 'Flatterers only' or 'Tell me Im great' because this is what it is all about, uh?

Bagginsbill.. don't worry. Look at those supporters of Belle.. All of them are totally new here. Anyone can drum up their friends and have them come here and support you against "the big bad man they don't know but have heard ALL about"

Those of us who know you, and who can actually read and understand english, know better. If anyone was attacked here it sure wasn't Belle.

Quote - Ummm, not sure what you mean here......I'm not HoneyBelle (?).

I meant BelleStudio of course. And no, I am not new here. I just avoid the board most of the time. Now I know why :-)

Quote - As far as I could read (and I know BelleStudio from another board) some comments like these should be avoided on any board: 'why do you smoke?* or 'picky' when you do not know whom you are talking to. Not all of us are native speakers. The same thing for asking about a word like 'awful'.

I could have said that! Im not new neither. This is becoming ridiculous.

*This is becoming ridiculous

*I agree with that.

Look, there are some seriously unnecessarily ruffled feathers here. I already explained the idiom "what are you smoking" - it is a commonly used American phrase that is humorous in it's absurdity. Nobody who says it actually is implying the person is doing drugs. If somebody doesn't know what it means, that's fine, but since you now do know what it means, why are we still talking about it? I completely understand that a non-American might not grasp the meaning or intent, but that isn't necessarily my fault, is it?

As for the word picky, once again I seem to be up against people who are parsing the sentence in a non-native English speaking way. When I said

"I'd venture to say that V4's envelope is at least 30% and maybe 50%, depending on how picky you are."

I was using the word "you" to mean anyone making the evaluation, not BelleStudio. In American English, it is considered pompous to use the more formal word "one" as in:

""I'd venture to say that V4's envelope is at least 30% and maybe 50%, depending on how picky one is."

People used to talk like that 50 years ago. I'm perfectly capable of using such formalisms, but when I do, then I am accused of "flowery speech".

Let me rephrase the sentence so that all can understand:

*The degree to which one is satisfied by the new joint system will largely depend on the severity of the pose one is attempting to employ, as well as the level of dissimilarity to real humans one is willing to tolerate. Having said that, I believe that most people would find that about half the conceivably useful poses the figure can take on are believably correcty, while those with more exacting requirements might dispute that figure and argue that only about a third are correct and look real.

*I'm not being sarcastic. That's what I meant and I think most people understood that. I'm sorry that my informal phrasing is confusing to non-native American English speakers, but I'm not about to start writing like a pompous ass just because some people need to learn a little more about common English speech.

And as for to this comment:

*But for Gods sake if you start a thread call it the right way like 'Flatterers only' or 'Tell me I´m great' because this is what it is all about, uh? 

*I'm going to point out, as politely as I can, that my thread was never about seeking flattery, and, pay attention now, I am offended by this comment. I don't need anybody to flatter me, and I never post a discovery for the purpose of receiving a pat on the back. I post what I learn so that others may benifit from the discovery.

My personal interests tend to be focused on the intricacies of producing realistic materials in computer generated images. I was impressed with the fact that Daz has released this figure with something more than just a painted on texture. I posted an image which I thought demonstrated how well the figure imitates human skin. I also gave a helpful hint on how to slightly adjust that shader to make it appear the way it did in my render.

If you think that shader is ugly, I'm fine with that. Nobody needs to compliment me. But I've shared literally hundreds of Poser shaders here and at RDNA - it's what I do for fun. Anyone who accuses me of posting for the purpose of receiving praise is speaking without any evidence or justification. Such comments are not only unconnected to any facts, but are themselves far more rude and offensive than anything I said.

I also wanted to point out that the morphs for V4 are very useful, and I backed that statement up with the render, demonstrating a figure that, in my opinion, shows significantly more possibilities than the earlier figure, V3, from a character creation standpoint.

There were several threads already discussing the merits of her joint system. I did not post about her joints, precisely because others had already done so. Yet her joints are so amazing that others jumped showing support and interest in the quality of this figure, from that standpoint. Great!

Then, in direct contradiction to all the evidence, BelleStudio jumps in using the word "awful", which means, to any English speaker, not just Americans, extremely bad. I am willing to consider the possibility that her joints are not anywhere near perfect. But if somebody says they are worse then V3, immediately after having been shown many times that the opposite is true, is confusing and provocative.

Now in public forums, when somebody makes intentionally provocative and demonstrably incorrect statements, it is usually the case that the conveyance of the stated opinion is not their intention. Rather, such statements are made for the sole purpose of getting an outraged reaction from the other participants. Such behavior is called "trolling" and the writer is called a troll. The word troll, for you non-English speakers, is used in this case reflecting it's meaning in fishing: to fish with a moving line, working the line up or down with a fishing rod, to catch a fish using a moving lure. Trolls travel around a forum, dangling provocative opinions unjustified by any supporting facts, for the purpose of getting what, for them, is an amusing reaction from the other participants.

Now it's my turn to make an observation. It may be that some of you are not being trolls. But your words sure make you seem like trolls.

Consider this - BelleStudio has only made 6 posts in all on Renderosity. Every single one of them has been in a post that has something to do with examining the quality and usefulness of the new V4 figure. She seems highly disposed to dislike it. But does she present any evidence that V4 joints, morphs, or shaders are inferior to V3.

*V4 looks like a not very good mixture of V3, A3 and Gloria and she has morphs similar to The Girl´s with no name other than "Estelle" or "Francoise" or such, which is not very informative actually.
Quite a washout in my eyes. :(

Unfortunately DAZ now develops figures which are better adapted to the DAZ software than to Poser 5 and higher versions. Therefore major problems occur when using such figures and you need extra care to save your files.
Not a serious model in my eyes!

YOU ARE NOT ALONE !
LOL!
I will stick to V3, A3 and Miki ;)

*This looks like troll behavior. 

Or, it is a person who desperately wants to believe that her investment in V3 is not superceded by a new character, and that her continued use of V3 will not be ridiculed.

I don't care if either, both, or neither of those assessments are true. What I do care about is there is a person flinging disparaging comments about a figure. People read these forums to learn what others have experienced with products. When someone spews such invective about a product, it seems to me highly misleading and does a disservice to the other readers who are genuinely seeking information about the product.

So all of you dissenters need to stop reacting to my supposed motivations, intentions, and needs that you have fabricated out of thin air. I have tried very hard to clearly and unambiguously state here my motivations, intentions, and needs. If you refuse to take me at my word, than that's your problem.

I am not of English speaking origin, but the way Baggingsbill phrased his reply to the "awful joints" was perfectly clear to me. Not only did he explain the meanings of the word awful, he also placed his "smoking" reply between brackets after indicating he used it as an expression that was similar to the unclear meaning of "awful".

One does not show good manners by entering discussion with "V4 has awful joints" when this opinion is clearly based on prejudice instead of proven facts. So I am very interested in seeing how awful these joints are.

Oh, one other thing I really wanted to mention.

Operaguy said:

*I have an old set of 74 poses called "Digiport Classic" I tried out about 30 of them....they work! Or rather, V4 works. The images I am posting here received NO ADJUSTMENT after applying the pose. V4 even takes the James and Jessie poses that came with P5 and P6. Occasionally one needs to tweak after applying the pose. V4 takes the new "universal poses."

(Emphasis added by me)

*To which BelleStudio responded:
*@Operaguy:
Thank you for your artful renderings and your help. I never use such poses and I think I can recognize postwork when I see some. I have done enough myself. :)

(Emphasis added by me)

*So now BelleStudio accuses Operaguy of lying. In my opinion, that is absolutely disturbing and, in my opinion, justifies getting banned.

A little reminder - this is an excerpt from the Rendersotiy Terms of Service. I've highlighted two sections, which I think some of you need to read closely. You are not allowed to make personal attacks, even if you have been personally attacked, which I hope I have shown was not in fact the case.

Members/Users will not use this community for;

• Any practices that affect the normal operations of the community (Admins will take whatever steps are necessary to restore service).
• Transmitting any libelous, defamatory, or any other material that could give rise to any civil or criminal liability under the law.
• Personal attacks. This includes but is not limited to, destructive, abusive, defamatory communications in any form, and retaliatory attacks from personal attacks. If you need assistance, please communicate with someone from our Renderosity Team.
• Destructive commentary/communications made with the intent to disrupt or attack (Trolling). This applies to any communications within this community, whether in the forums, art galleries, graffiti wall, chat, or IM.

Hmm, I guess I'm not getting the Nobel Peace Prize this year.  :sad:

Quote - IBut if somebody says they are worse then V3, immediately after having been shown many times that the opposite is true, is confusing and provocative..... Consider this - BelleStudio has only made 6 posts in all on Renderosity. Every single one of them has been in a post that has something to do with examining the quality and usefulness of the new V4 figure. She seems highly disposed to dislike it. But does she present any evidence that V4 joints, morphs, or shaders are inferior to V3.

*V4 looks like a not very good mixture of V3, A3 and Gloria and she has morphs similar to The Girl´s with no name other than "Estelle" or "Francoise" or such, which is not very informative actually.
Quite a washout in my eyes. :(

Unfortunately DAZ now develops figures which are better adapted to the DAZ software than to Poser 5 and higher versions. Therefore major problems occur when using such figures and you need extra care to save your files.
Not a serious model in my eyes!

YOU ARE NOT ALONE !
LOL!
I will stick to V3, A3 and Miki ;)

*This looks like troll behavior. 

You would not look so desperatly for any possible reason to make me bad if you had not said something wrong and you did, do you? Do you think the number of my posts in a board like this tells you anything about me ? Then maybe it should tell me something about you too since this board here has an extremely bad reputation among artists. Did you know that? You are taking my other posts from their context. Who allowed you this? The other threads were made in a very different atmosphere and there were many people there who shared the same opinion as mine. So what are you trying to hide with this? You just cant bare having somebody in your thread that has another point of view. I NEVER critized your opinion, I just told mine. I just critized the way you made such rude comments against me because I have another opinion. I am in several boards and other members react just the same as I did when they get the anwer "what do you smoke?" etc. so just do not try to make something harmless that had another aim to reach: make me feel bad for not having the same point of view than you. A mature discussion is fair. Where the hell did I say that "V3 were better than V4" or "V4 worse than V3". Show me where! because I never said such thing, it was all in YOUR head. And I did not say that because it is not true. Just V4 is not worth to spend a penny more in my eyes, thats it because I think she is not smart and good enough for that. Thats all. It would have come differently if V3 and V4 had appeared at the same time. I quite frankly do not know how I would have handled then and which one I would have bought. Is this clear enough for you? 'You are a troll' I do not think you really know what you are talking about here. If you mean this fictional character of LoTR it can only be a trial to make a joke.

Is your answer getting me banned? :)

BelleStudio,

Could you stop whining and just show me a picture of a V4 joint that looks worse than a V3 joint in the same pose?

Good morning all. 

I am so happy to have this great new model that all umbrage over 'j'acuse and sorrow over the wretched contremps into which this thread has fallen, pales.

V4 filles me with awe.

And again good morning to all.

::::: Opera :::::