i wasn't making that point. i was making the point the anti gays don't have to be in contact with gays to be anti. in reference to your

"Doesn't it strike you as odd that a bunch of guys who are loudly heterosexual whould give two craps about some other peer group that they will **never connect with?"

billy**

Quote - > Quote -

well i have to say most, in fact all the those i know  who were anti gay and this includes most of those guys i knew are still hetro.  some of these guys were or are so  anti gay if you went with a flat chested woman they branded you gay. don't get me wrong i'm not saying some anti's aren't gay. just that i find it hard to belive the whole anti gay movement is and was mainly made up of latent homosexuals. it's a bit like saying all the anti hetro gays (and there are more than many people think) are secretly straight. as for  the flawed logic phantast isn't that what was said. all those opposed to x (homosexualty) are secretly in favour of  x (homosexuality) if not what was said...

I'm not saying that all homophobes are latently gay; I'm saying that it is not uncommon for homophobes to turn out in the end to have been gay themselves.

in fact your saying more than half are gay...or infering it with the words not uncommon. what stats or criteria are you basing this on? 

In addition, there is a logic in this case which is not present in your comparisons. In every person there is a mixture of animus and anima, male and female. The balance is different between individuals. It's clear that in some cases, where the balance is rather even, that person incurs anxiety about their true sexual identity, and attempts to repress it by intolerance. The question is, what proportion of intolerant people are so motivated? I don't know the answer to that and neither do you.

we all go through certain phases in our lives. being anti about them doesn't mean we are in turmoil about them. correct no you don't know. though socioligists have some kind of idea and they are of a mind in the main that sexual predjudice is a socially driven animal.

You don't know which of your homophobic acquaintances are suppressing their female feelings. They certainly aren't going to tell you. Either they subsequently come out, in which case you know, or they don't come out, and you never know. The fact that they behave in an overtly hetero style means nothing, since you don't know what they may be concealing.

whos to say any of them are or are not. though if you knew my friends you wouldnt think them gay. their pretty confident about their sexuality. on the other hand many homosexuals suffer from depression due many sociologists say from a by product of being gay.

The opposite case you cite, of anti-hetero gays being secretly straight, has no such logic, and no examples that I've ever encountered.

and because you don't know of it it doesn't happen. ever been in a barber shop full of gays. or a gay bar and your straight. do you think the gays treat the hetro's normally . again studies say they revert to herd mentality. they have a tendencey to try and ridicule the lone hetro en masse.
where as when they are on there own these tendencies tend not to come out.

are you basing just on personal experiences. ?

billy.

Quote - i wasn't making that point. i was making the point the anti gays don't have to be in contact with gays to be anti. in reference to your

"Doesn't it strike you as odd that a bunch of guys who are loudly heterosexual whould give two craps about some other peer group that they will **never connect with?"

billy**

The analogy still fails, because justification for popular racist ideals boils down to (however unjustifiable) a competition ethic, "it's us or them".  If you ask a militant racist "why do you hate ethnic group X" they'll have what they feel is a good reason (competition for jobs, competition for women, competition for place in society).  Are your uber straight buddies competing with gays somehow?  In what aspect?

both are socially driven predjudice. both try and eliminate their targets from their sociaty and repress them.  i take it not wanting people to drink from the same water fountain  is all about job security.  mostly they hate because thats what they've been brought up to do. the competition ethic is a means to justify their hatred. why hate a black person if you have a job etc for those that do have jobs. most militant racist hate because it gives them a sense of being or purpose. most don't have, want or care about jobs. most are unemployed anti social dropouts who use the job ethic to also justify why they have no job. the fact they're often smashed out of their brains and being in such a group is only sense of self they have. most are easily led. the main reason most are predjudiced is because it's easier for them to hate than to lead a productive life. (i'm on about the uk's national front and it's equivilent. run by wealth and soldiered by morons.) i don't class those who just wear a badge as militant btw. 

billy

Uh, you have some really odd perceptions of people there.  Racists are jobless drunks?  What hole do you live in?  Wealthy, 60-hour a week types can be racists too, don't kid yourself.  That's an interesting variation away from the fundamental fallacy of your analogy anyway, that racists manifestly cannot be the same as the ethnic group they hate.  Aggressive gay-haters can be, and it's proven true commonly enough that it's become a popular stereotype.  How many black Klansmen are there?

12/22/06

New technologies and new concepts in software and graphics have given us new tools to explore our human condition. Art is an attempt to gain some level of control or influence over our humanity. Poser provides many people the opportunity to examine themselves and others in a creative environment. As amazing as this technology is, it will continue to develope and offer ever more realism and control over the final render.

Human beings play with dolls. We do so as children and we do so as adults. Whether we write novels, paint portraits, fashion clothes, sculpt, whatever, we are manipulating conceptual humans. Art, craft, story telling, fantasy, and so on are ways of contemplating what it means to be a person. Make of it what one will, I find this behavior healthy for most people.

I do not have an exclusive handle on truth. I find the thoughts that others have on art interesting and not mutually exclusive. One person’s art is another person’s birdcage liner.

LMK

I don't agree that homophobia is completely a 'socially driven' prejudice. Humans inherantly dislike those who practice things they find strongly repulsive. It's not taught. Therefore it would be more accurate to describe it as a partially socially driven prejudice - a combination of nurture and nature. Don't forget the Bell curve. There will be people spread across the spectrum to different degrees. [PS. My comparison of homosexuality to things found 'strongly repulsive' was in no way intended to insult, embarass, diminish or attack homosexuals. It is merely acknowledging the reality, which I have no doubt everyone reading this thread knows, that some people truly do find that repulsive. I will also note that some people find many, many other forms of sexuality repulsive. I used homosexuality as an example because that's what had already been mentioned - not because I personally wanted to single it out over any other form of sexual expression.]

The reality that some people find homosexuality repulsive - does not lead one to a conclusion of the cause for that.  I find it highly unlikely that "gay people are icky" is hard coded into the human genome.

Quote -  How many black Klansmen are there?

[/quote)

probably lots. they just use a different name. if you read what i said you'd see i said the wealthy run the militant side and the morons follow like sheep. the follower have a generic profile though obviously all don't fall into it.  in the uk most of the militant racists are skin headed yobbos...fact

billy

Quote - I don't agree that homophobia is completely a 'socially driven' prejudice. Humans inherantly dislike those who practice things they find strongly repulsive. It's not taught. Therefore it would be more accurate to describe it as a partially socially driven prejudice - a combination of nurture and nature. Don't forget the Bell curve. There will be people spread across the spectrum to different degrees. [PS. My comparison of homosexuality to things found 'strongly repulsive' was in no way intended to insult, embarass, diminish or attack homosexuals. It is merely acknowledging the reality, which I have no doubt everyone reading this thread knows, that some people truly do find that repulsive. I will also note that some people find many, many other forms of sexuality repulsive. I used homosexuality as an example because that's what had already been mentioned - not because I personally wanted to single it out over any other form of sexual expression.]

agreed i don't agree either that homophobia is socially nor is any form of predjudice. i'm talking about the majority

on a personal note. homosexuality doesn't repulse or affect me. to me its just another persons way of life.  i think all people should be treated equally.

billy

Perhaps OT:

a professor in sociology told his students:

       -well, considering our recent statistics: about thirty years all people will homosexual.

a concerned student replied;

       -oh, that's awfull, how will we get our offspring.

well, answered the professor:

    -there will always be perverts.

As long as there are bell curves, there will be perverts...or pervects..;)
Gad..as long as they don't make trouble for me, I won't make trouble for them..;)

In any society, a common set of rules and perceptions are set, and those who stray too far away from them become 'the other'.

and someone will always come up with a name for them (or a pseudonym..;)

"The KKK took my baby away, they took her away, away from me" -The Ramones

Billy:
"How many black Klansmen are there?"

Quote - probably lots. they use use a different name.

That's stupid.  If you're just going off into la la land, I don't have any interest ing talking to you.

Any more stupid than the whole premise of this thread that Poser is for Perverts? 8 pages of talking about a stupid subject IMHO, the horse is long dead from the point of it's not the tool but the people that use it. 

Equating other prejudices that are just as stupid doesn't help much, it just proves that stupidity is epidemic but doesn't do much to proposing a cure right?

I'm not saying "prejudice is stupid" (although it is) - I'm saying that the statement  "there are lots of black KKK members" is pretty friggin dumb.

Saying that there are 'blacks' in the actual Klan is a bit much (although there are more than a few of -those- boys who aren't as lily white as they think they are....a lot of family bibles have revealed that upon closer examination....veg). The point was that there are, percentage-wise, just as many 'blacks' that are as bad or worse (vis-a-vis regarding being bigots) as there are 'whites'. Actually, considering the current PC stupidity that only 'whites' can be bigots, probably more. It's so much easier when there's a patina of illusion that what one is doing isn't really what they are doing.... Of course since the current genetic information is that there isn't enough differentiation for there to =be= a 'racial' definition (the so-called 'racial' features being nothing more than cosmetic adaptation to environment, reinforced with small, isolated breeding pools), it pretty much devolves the whole issue into one of those sandbox arguments between 2 year olds. Anyone who gets bent over the issue deserves it. The human race is the only race.

Billy went off on a wack tangent (which describes this whole thread I guess).  He made the analogy that gay-haters are just like race-haters, which is fundamentally flawed for reasons I won't repeat again.

Quote - fundamentally flawed for reasons I won't repeat again.

As was the whole premise of the thread, and still no solutions proposed. That horse must be ground into powder by now wouldn't you think?

Quote - Billy:
"How many black Klansmen are there?"

Quote - probably lots. they use use a different name.

That's stupid.  If you're just going off into la la land, I don't have any interest ing talking to you.

i was implying that black people can be coloured predjudiced as well as whites. they dont use the kkk. they use other names. a black racist is just a white racist with a different colour. if you can't see that racism is racism whatever the colour then i'm glad you don't have any interest talking to me. your that's stupid phrase reminds me of a child that can only think in one dimension, their own. i can see you were the debate champion at school lmao.

thanks for the discourse and your wise words of understanding and clarity.

billy

Quote - I'm not saying "prejudice is stupid" (although it is) - I'm saying that the statement  "there are lots of black KKK members" is pretty friggin dumb.

It is not, the KKK follows some principles such as:
1- The white race is the superior race.
2- .... blah blah blah ......

Now take a second group that follows these principles:
1- The black race is the superior race.
2- .... blah blah blah .... the same .....

The second group is exactly the same as the KKK

"The reality that some people find homosexuality repulsive - does not lead one to a conclusion of the cause for that. I find it highly unlikely that "gay people are icky" is hard coded into the human genome." That is merely one example of one possible reason for prejudice against homosexuals. I'm not at all stating that it's the only reason. Once again, my point was that there are more than one reason for that kind of prejudice - it's not solely socially driven.

Quote - "The reality that some people find homosexuality repulsive - does not lead one to a conclusion of the cause for that. I find it highly unlikely that "gay people are icky" is hard coded into the human genome." That is merely one example of one possible reason for prejudice against homosexuals. I'm not at all stating that it's the only reason. Once again, my point was that there are more than one reason for that kind of prejudice - it's not solely socially driven.

i'm not saying it is soley socially driven. i'm saying it's predominently socially driven. 
in some parts of the usa a large percentage are anti gay or anti black and not to be so would make you stand out as different. maybe not so much now but it's still there in large numbers.

billy

Quote - > Quote - "The reality that some people find homosexuality repulsive - does not lead one to a conclusion of the cause for that. I find it highly unlikely that "gay people are icky" is hard coded into the human genome." That is merely one example of one possible reason for prejudice against homosexuals. I'm not at all stating that it's the only reason. Once again, my point was that there are more than one reason for that kind of prejudice - it's not solely socially driven.

 

i'm not saying it is soley socially driven. i'm saying it's predominently socially driven. 
in some parts of the usa a large percentage are anti gay or anti black and not to be so would make you stand out as different. maybe not so much now but it's still there in large numbers.

billy

Are people anti-gay because they are phobic or are they anti-gay because PC people demand and pressure them to accept something they may or may not wish to accept? If one is forced to eat brocolli does not one hate brocolli just for that sake? The very term homophobic is a grossly inaccurate and unfair term. Phobias are mental disorders, people who are unrealistically and irrationally afraid of something. Labelling anyone who slightly disagrees or merely does not like something as phobic lays the blame squarely in that person's lap and labels them with a mental disorder. There maybe a tiny, tiny amount of actual homophobia in this country (same as all other countries). The mast majority is merely preference and like or dislike. But any real resistance is coming from forced or pressured resistance. Gays can go into schools to teach their lifestyle but other groups can't? How does that make sense and why would parents not notice this.

The relentless labelling, cognitive dissonace, whole/part fallacies and pressure to accept accept accept accept is what is causing any so called phobia in this country about gays, not the actual lifestyle of being gay. You can't pressure or force people to be your friend. That is the best way to gaurentee people won't be your friend.

Quote - The relentless labelling, cognitive dissonace, whole/part fallacies and pressure to accept accept accept accept is what is causing any so called phobia in this country about gays, not the actual lifestyle of being gay. You can't pressure or force people to be your friend. That is the best way to gaurentee people won't be your friend.

While I'll go so far in agreeing with this, might it not be that this is a better tactic to, say, stop discrimination, gay-bashing, gay-hate crimes, outright murder, and so on (yeah, there's more) than say we all band together into a militant group of vigilantes and take revenge on others to force acceptance?

The idea of 'going into schools'  is an attempt to remove the socially accepted stigma associated with a natural process that is estimated to cover 10% of the population (that's not like two people).  I go with Kinsey - sexuality isn't "YOU'RE HETEROSEXUAL AND YOU'RE HOMOSEXUAL".  Thems the words of idiots.  And if you think differently, you don't get out much.  It is a nice false dichotomy - always good for segregation and 'us and them' mentalities.  The problem is that it is too often characterized as 'abnormal' (even a pathology) when it is not - it is just a trait.  It is just a trait that has garnered its stigma over thousands of years - and it is well engrained - in politics, in religion, in social structures, in institutions.  Can't tear down the wall by hiding behind it...

I have this really annoying (not to me but to others) habit, When people TELL me how to think or what I have to accept I refuse to do it & will fight it every step of the way, no matter what it is. These days there's far too many people with personal agendas that they feel it's their right to try forcing on everyone else, I don't mind them having an agenda as long as I don't have to listen to it or be forced to toe some imaginary PC line in case I hurt their feelings.

"sexuality isn't "YOU'RE HETEROSEXUAL AND YOU'RE HOMOSEXUAL".  Thems the words of idiots.  And if you think differently, you don't get out much.  It is a nice false dichotomy - always good for segregation and 'us and them' mentalities.  The problem is that it is too often characterized as 'abnormal' (even a pathology) when it is not - it is just a trait.  It is just a trait that has garnered its stigma over thousands of years - and it is well engrained - in politics, in religion, in social structures, in institutions.  Can't tear down the wall by hiding behind it..."

this i agree with, it also goes to show thats gay hate etc is a predominantly social beast. if not then most of the mid west males are latent gays. it also shows than otherwise rational people can be idiots when it coms to vertain subjects. sometimes sociaty, religion etc teaches us to be idiotic.

billy

Puritanism: That stingy and unpleasant feeling that someone, somewhere in the world, might just be happy. Puritans hate happiness in others. And those calling other pervs usually howl with the wolves in order to feel righteous despite their own little "secrets", which is lame. Guys... let the ignorants and the frustrated whine and just go on with the good work. They can just drown in their own stupidity.

Quote - I have this really annoying (not to me but to others) habit, When people TELL me how to think or what I have to accept I refuse to do it & will fight it every step of the way, no matter what it is. [...]

OK so ... I won't say

Have a Nice Christmas

then ;o)

Quote - > Quote - I have this really annoying (not to me but to others) habit, When people TELL me how to think or what I have to accept I refuse to do it & will fight it every step of the way, no matter what it is. [...]

OK so ... I won't say

Have a Nice Christmas

then ;o)

lol I deserve that eh? I don't actually celebrate Christmas being a non-Christian but you have a good Christmas yourself :D

Has anyone here read "The Wanting Seed" by Anthony Burgess? It's a SF novel set in a future where homosexuality is the prescribed social norm. Very interesting.

'fraid not..but I did see a 'Tripping the Rift' episode about a homosexual planet...it was funny for various reasons.

Quote - Are people anti-gay because they are phobic or are they anti-gay because PC people demand and pressure them to accept something they may or may not wish to accept? If one is forced to eat brocolli does not one hate brocolli just for that sake?

This is correct, PC is creating a new generation of haters.
Before the invention of PC existed people that hated other people, after PC these people continued or not hating, but also existed people that didn't hated before PC, what happens with this people.
They have no problems with other in the past, but PC is forcing them to do or not do things that you always did without any hate or discrimination involved. You can add the priviledges that receive people protected by PC, priviledges that you don't have. Then you can add the abuses of this groups and racist actitudes toward you, racism that is protected and granted by the PC. You cannot be racist,  you cannot hate, you cannot discriminated them, but they can be racist, discriminate and hate you as much they want, and all the propaganda.
The result is obvious, you that never hated them in the past you end hating them and a new generation of haters is created.
I have other example as the brocolli, this time with onion. I didn't hated onion, I loved it!
When I was a kid I ate dishes and more dishes full of onion, I loved this. After many years eating in one moment I lost the atraction for onion and didn't liked it anymore.
I one moment I began to hate onion, if some meal had a bit of onion I refused to eat all the meal.
If you add to the problem that my mother cheated me. I asked if the meal has onion, she replied that not, but in the moment I experimented the meal I taste the onion, so I got furious and refused to eat anymore.
One insignificant bit of onion and was able to detect and make me furious.
30 years I hated onion and only onion, I hated people that dared to put onion in something that I was going to eat!!!
Today I am able to eat  it again, but not too much..

Um, Kawecki, I hate to burst your bubble, but there is no recorded history of a time before political correctness existed. Read almost any piece of ancient literature to verify this :)

Well, before Bush I had no references to PC, today is something very common to be found.
Maybe some had existed before Bush, but none has reached to me.

For example, the evil Christmas trees and evil Happy Christmas appeared last year, this year turned into something psychotic.

Quote - Um, Kawecki, I hate to burst your bubble, but there is no recorded history of a time before political correctness existed. Read almost any piece of ancient literature to verify this :)

On the other hand, read a few English novels written in the first quarter of the 20th century and you may be taken aback by the casual antisemitism and racism.

Quote - Well, before Bush I had no references to PC, today is something very common to be found.
Maybe some had existed before Bush, but none has reached to me.

Shrub for all his faults (& he has many many many faults) was not the one who invented political idiocy...sorry I mean political correctness. :D

I remember it popping up in the 60's (but that's about as far back as I go). Political correctness in it's present form has roots in the 70's, from the Revisionist history movement, and left of center political and educational institutions. It always tickled me that everybody was fighting The Establishment, and the Man, but everyone was doing it in exactly the same way..;) You had to show how free you were by dressing, talking, and acting like everyone else. Some freedom..;)

There's always been dissent on both sides of the isle, but the term Politically Correct is very much a late-20th Century concept. 

As for the Bushies, they're relative neighbors to my family (we're one of the founders of Waco, TX. It's a city between the Branch Davidian compound, and the Bush Ranch..don't mess with us..;) It's political InCorrectness that they preach.

With any school of thought, you're going to have

1. people who practice it in the sense of smug superiority of anyone who doesn't believe the same way, and
2. people who have to show the 1st group up by being even stricter on themselves and others, and ruining it for everyone else.

I think the quote (several pages back), is

A Puritan is someone who can't sleep at night knowing someone, somewhere, is having a good time..;)
Instead of landing on Plymouth rock, Plymouth Rock has landed on them...;)" - Cole Porter..;)

I neglected to say that I was talking about the horrid pseudo-mob mentality that is currently known as "political correctness", and not the term itself. The term itself is recent, as you have pointed out.

Quote - I think the discussion should be re-focused: what is art? How do you define art? What is your objective?

First of all I realise this topic is somewhat old now, but sadly I have just found it.  Art is conceptual, it is in the eye of the beholder.  What one person finds as art another will see as trash.  I feel because of this our children should be taught the basics but not graded on it.  And the same goes for people who use Poser, D|S, Bryce or any of the other 3D programs out there.

If WE all liked the same type of things this world would be a very dull place.  I for one use alot of nude women pictures as reference for posing.  Does that make me a pervert?  Nope.  I am a Provert.  LOL.

Seriously, if anyone redicules you cause you are artist then turn the other cheek and walk away.  You have a talent for capturing something on the pc, or on paper that they dont and therefore they are just jealous. 

*Poser is for Perverts?

*I certainly hope so.

Ok all. I don't know if anyone will catch my comments but here I go. First, I consider myself to be a believer in Christ as my saviour, but I also believe that we have the freedom of choice and that we will all have to answer to a higher authority. Now about Poser. I am new to Poser and think it's one of the most exciting products in 3D to use. It's amazing how far we have come with 3D and for this aspect of 3D when it comes to the human figure. This person who made the statement has his own opinion about whatever he saw when it relates to Poser. I think all Poser users should be proud of the art they have created. I certainly am, even if some of my creations are a bit sleazy. It's all in fun. My wife is one of the biggest followers of Christ, probably bigger than me, but she loves to be feaky and sleazy also, (of course we are married), you can use your imagination about the rest.

The last thing I like to say about this is this, "Poser is not the problem, it's the abuse of Poser!".

Quote - *Poser is for Perverts?

*I certainly hope so.

I know. If it's not, I'm going to have to find another program.

You mean there are some people who are totally unperverted? With no fantasies, no lust, nothing? Just... drones? EEEEEEEEEW! So sick :D Everyone have a good holiday and abuse the xmas meal ok? :p

ah, c'mon Simon Templar, you're such a Saint..;)

poser is for perverts??  hmmm....   there must be millions of perverts then  lmao  including me. I don't think a nude image is being a pevert. It's art. Nothing to be ashamed of. :)

Yeah but I'm the Saint of All That's Kinky :3 My humble opinion about this whole thing is, nobody needs any self proclaimed religious institution to tell them what is good or bad. Faith is after all a very personal and subjective matter, and you never know if the guy telling you what to do might have or not a few loose condos in his little motherboard. That's where faith and religions part in my book. Not being a religious person myself, I still respect that a catholic won't want to sit at a table of 13 guests, I'll respect that a muslim won't eat with his left hand, and that a shintoist will never use a full treetrunk pillar upside down when building a house. When it comes to sexuality, I dearly believe that as long as one's little fantasies don't enter the socially harmful category, nobody has a right to brandish any religious symbol under the guy/girl's nose and say "you are a PERVERT and this is BAD". A french comedian, long dead now, named Pierre Desproges, said this: "Some people can't stand it when on tv they hear words such as cock, ass, cum or fuck. They whine, they yell, they write letters to the tv channels. Hey, morons, switch channels or even shut it down. That's what the button is for." Whoever branded Poser as a tool for perverts obviously didn't locate the button...

Quote - I still respect that a catholic won't want to sit at a table of 13 guests,

??????, I never heard this.
Well, people use the number 13 for many supersticions, good or bad luck.

I think Tiari hit it dead on with her points.

There are a few things that need to be pointed out in the fallacies of thinking here.

1. Vocal Homophobics that end up coming out of the closet fall under a catagory known as being in Denial. They express that denial in their subsequent actions. A Good example is those Two Colorado ministers that were recently outted.

2. Billy has a rather convoluted point, though he was using the wrong organization to demonstrate his point. There is no such thing as a Black member of the KKK... They are known as Blank Panthers... So while yes, there parallel is there, I would think it better to use the correct organization.

The problem is, true pedophiles use real pictures, not Poser. True pedophiles will trade images of children like trading cards.

That and the serious pervs squish Poser Child porn faster than a person can blank. There is  zero tolerance for such images.

Poser is but a tool that enables one to easily and inexpensively express themselves.

natolii

there is also the nation of islam party which is anti white and believes in black seperatism.

i answered the question metoporically because it was a stupid question to answer any other way. that it was took literally shows that to some white racist are different than black racist. the only thing different is the names. thanks for getting it right kaweki.

and yes i will agree that a lot of hetro's live in denial. this doesn't mean that in general being anti gay isn't socially driven.

my take on the poser pervert issue is this. ...... (not to anyone in general) grow the fuck up. it's a toy to some a hobby to others and fun to many more. whoever thinks it's for pervs has some issues to deal with. next people will be saying watching kids programs with your children is an act of pedophilia. get real, get a life, get poser....now wheres the morphin titty buttons on this thing lmao

billy