I have a 3D scan of a real person's head that I brought into Maxon C4D.  I also brought in Michael 3 into Maxon C4D.  I reworked the Michael 3 Mesh head to match the 3D scan.  The info on the part notes that each head is composed of the same number of points and polygons, 49752 points and 50837 polygons. 

Every time I try to put the morph onto the Michael 3 in Poser 7 I get an error message that reads, "Target Geometry has the wrong number of vertices." 

Basically, I'd like to move the new head into Poser 7 from C4D and use the facial expressions bequeathed to M3 on the new head.  How should I go about doing this?

TIA

Attached Link: http://skinprops.com/riptide.php

You can't do any operation that changes the number of vertices when making morphs.

To start with, you will need to use the Riptide plugin to stop C4D from reordering the vertices in M3's head.

Make sure that you aren't including body parts other than the head when you export (e.g. the eyes).

Does this mean when I imported the head the vertices were re-ordered?  And can I not re-order them back?  I halved the head and worked over one side to save time, and then made it symmetrical. 

I'll give the download a try on the current head.  Thanks for the link! 

The reordering of vertices is a well known problem when making morphs for Poser with C4D.

Just so that you recognise the effect, just import and export the head mesh (not using the plugin and without altering it) and load it as a morph. You'll get an exploded mess.
Try the same thing with the plugin and everything should behave.

Attached Link: Mirroring morphs in C4D

That is certain to reorder vertices, because you are actually making changes to the geometry. You'll have to find a plug-in for C4D that will help you mirror the morphs as you work on them. This recent thread in the C4D forum might also help ...

I haven't had a chance to reply to the email that you sent me, but nruddock has hit the nail on the nose as it were. :)  The built-in Cinema 4D Wavefront importer/exporter will reorder vertices.  Spanki's Riptide plugin does not.  interPoser Pro doesn't either, but it really doesn't have the facility to import/export standalone Wavefront OBJ files - only those made through associations with Poser content and scenes.

That would be your best bet for success in transferring a custom morph from Cinema 4D to Poser as a morph target.

On that note, Bob ... one thing I have yet to check (or to request, if it's not included). Anyway to export the reduced size back out to Poser? For example, if I bring several pieces of clothing in to C4D to create morphs, is there a way to get them all back into Poser as a group for rigging each one in the setup room?

I don't think riptide isn't striaghtforward enough for me yet.  I was wondering about the use of interposer.  Could I import the poser file of M3 into C4D and use the face gestures on the new head in C4D, or will I still have the same problem with the vertices being disorderly?

I'm not very familiar with the use of UV mappers.  would something like that be helpful?

If I have to do the work over again, what would be the best way to do it?  What's the workflow process?  Would it be something like export the figure from Poser as OBJ.  Import it into C4D with riptide using some set of unkown settings.  Create the morph without cutting anything in half.  Then export the file with riptide as OBJ using another set of magical settings, and then import the morph into Poser.

I can import the current head into poser without getting a jumbled mess of spikes or points.  It just comes in as an object if imported, and nothing as a morph.

What about FBX files?  Is that something Poser can work with?  Would FBX solve any of these problems?  What about other file types like 3DS, DXF, etc.?

Thanks again for everyone's help.  I appreciate it.

Brian

how bout this?
pCharacter2FBX
http://www.daz3d.com/i.x/shop/itemdetails/-/?item=3646

My suggestion is "Don't do that!" ;)

And I mean don't cut anything in half.  The point of creating morphs to be used in Poser is that they modify particular points (particular is only guaranteed by their index in an array of vertices).  Adding or subtracting points will most definitely destroy that indexing - and there is no way that I know to fix the alteration once done (besides undos).  Cutting the geometry in half, morphing, and then mirroring it is totally going to be deleting and adding points with a 100% guarantee of reordered vertices.

If you really need to mirror morphs from one side to another, it'll either need to be done by hand or with the help of something designed to do just that.  But I can already see why such a tool might not exist (or be limited) - the first requirement would be that the points be pretty much identically mirrored themselves (or how does the tool know which morph deltas apply from one point to another?).

My advice on how to proceed is this:

1. You don't need to export OBJ from Poser - use the base geometry if possible.  The OBJ file reference can be found in the CR2 file (for instance).  If that is not possible, then you must Zero Figure before OBJ export from Poser.

2.  Use Riptide to import and export the OBJ.  Cinema 4D's import/export always reorders (and always has).  Be sure to scale up the geometry on import and inverse the scaling on export.  This is crucial since Poser works with geometry in very minute space ranges (0.0-1.0) whereas Cinema 4D tends to work badly with such small spaces.  A value between 500-1000 is recommended here.

1. You want to symmetrical morphs, edit symmetrically!  It's a big pain in the posterior, but the obvious solution is to always select the matching points on both sides of the symmetry.  Then all of your morph changes are always done to both sides.

No, Poser doesn't work with FBX - and FBX isn't really designed for the type of thing you are trying to achieve.

kuroyume0161,

regaurding 1, what or where is the base geometry?  What do you mean the OBJ file reference can be found in the CR2 file?  What do you mean by zero the figure?

I managed to figure out that C4D prefers the poser and OBJ files magnified 1000 times.

Is this thing helpful?
http://www.uvmapper.com/features.html

1.  Base Geometry - this is the Wavefront OBJ file that represents the figure or prop mesh.  They are stored in Poser's Runtime/Geometries folder (usually).  Sometimes they are embedded in the Poser file for props and newer Poser default content has them stored in the Runtime/Libraries/.... folder along with the Poser file.  For M3, try /Runtime/Geometries/DAZPeople/blMilMan_m3.obj.  That is the untouched mesh.  Most figures are loaded in an initial pose - this differs from the base geometry in that posing deforms the mesh.  If you export Wavefront OBJ from Poser in this state, you will not be pleased with the results of your morphs when applied back in Poser.

2.  Figure library = Runtime/Libraries/Character folder.  In that folder you'll find a bunch of subfolders containing files with extension CR2 or CRZ.  These are the extensions denoting Poser figures (like M3) and the files contain the defining information for the figure (rigging, morphs, textures, and so on).  The CR2 file is plain text - the Wavefront OBJ file for the base mesh used by the figure is referenced there under 'figureResFile'.  The CRZ is a compressed version of the same file - it can be extracted back to a CR2 using WinZip.

1. As noted in 1., Figures usually load with an initial pose - that is with body part bends that are non-zero.

• Go into Poser and load your figure
• Turn off all IK (!) from the Figure menu (Use Inverse Kinematics)
• Go to the Window menu and select Joint Editor.
• Select the BODY body part.
• Select the Joint Editor window and hit "Zero Figure" - be amazed ;)

That is what the mesh looks like before any deformations (bends, morphs) are applied.

UV Mapper won't help you here.  It is mainly for, well, UV mapping which has nothing to do with morphing.

very groovey!

Quote - I don't think riptide isn't striaghtforward enough for me yet.

Actually, the default settings should be what you want.  At some point, you should read through the included readme file and/or online documentation, but you can just refer to that to see what each option is for.

Quote - If I have to do the work over again, what would be the best way to do it?  What's the workflow process?  Would it be something like export the figure from Poser as OBJ.

1. If you are just doing a morph on the head, yes - export it from Poser and be sure "As morph target" option is set.

Quote - Import it into C4D with riptide using some set of unkown settings.

1. Correct.  Except that the "some set of unknown settings" are in fact (should be) the default settings - just click "Ok" on the dialog.  All of the other options should be self-explanitory, but check the readme file if you have questions about them.

Quote - Create the morph without cutting anything in half.  Then export the file with riptide as OBJ using another set of magical settings, and then import the morph into Poser.

1. Again correct.  Except that once again, the default export settings should already be the magical setting you're looking for (unless you've changed them already, but for importing/exporting morph targets, most of the settings won't make any difference at all).  Just to clarify, when you import, leave the Scale Factor set at 1000  and when you export it again, leave the Scale Factor set at 1000.

Quote - I can import the current head into poser without getting a jumbled mess of spikes or points.  It just comes in as an object if imported, and nothing as a morph.

1. When simply imported by itself, it doesn't matter what order the vertices are in.  When you use it as a morph target, it does.  If you use Riptide to import/export, the vertices won;t get re-ordered.

Quote - What about FBX files?  Is that something Poser can work with?  Would FBX solve any of these problems?  What about other file types like 3DS, DXF, etc.?

...no need to make this any more complicated - you already have the solution you need with Riptide :).  When you're making your morph, you can move vertices around (or move the associated polygons around), just don't do anything that would add or remove points (knife tool, extruding, etc).  You might also want to leave the edge points around the neck connection alone.

Check out the thread that Deecey linked - I think there was a link to a morph-mirroring type plugin in there.

Cheers,

Keith

Yes, I just read that Deecey link and there were a couple of possible morph-mirroring plugins suggested.  This would relegate the need to do my more austere method. :)

And the thing about not touching the points that connect to other body parts is a well made, er, point.  Unless you plan on making matching morphs on the connected body parts or purposely want that effect, the morphing in that region will look bad as it the morph will appear to suddenly cutoff at the other body part.

...just to clarify... I spent a fair amount of time writing the documentation and online documentation and online overviews to try to explain Riptide's functions.

If you've read through all of that and something is not clear or you still need help, then I'm more than happy to help - in fact, I created forums at my site where users can come to ask questions.  You'll have to be registered at the site to post, but there's no charge for that.

Spanki, yes your documentation is quite complete.  but my sleepy eyes struggled with it today. 

You've all been very helpful.  I'm going to start over and move the data around as all of you have suggested.

Live, learn, and do it over ;-)

Been there, done that (many, many times) .  It's a pain, but it's the best way to learn (doing it).

On the documentation... keep in mind that I've been messing with .obj files for 20 (?) years now, so I might gloss over something that I take for granted.  If you have questions, let me know. 

BTW, I'm not sure if it was mentioned above or not, but if you are just morphing the head, then you should only export the head from Poser.  If you're trying to create morphs on the Head and Neck (and/or other parts), then things get a bit more complicated (the directions I gave above only deal with a single body part).

One more question here.  Every time I import M3, he has these big clay eyebrows tacked on.  I don't remember them being there before.  And I don't like them being there now.  Or should I just let them be?

This looks a lot more promising.

I'm learning a lot here :-)

Those big eyebrows are actually part of M3, yes. :)  Usually you don't see them in Poser because the material applied has transparency.  I wouldn't worry about them, but you should probably include them in your morphs as they are part of the head.

Well, I've given it another try.  I started over using riptide.  I exported the figure head from poser and pulled it into C4D with Riptide.  But now I'm getting an explosion of polygons whenever I apply the morph in Poser.  I've tried a few export and import options with riptide.  I'm not sure what settings are ideal.  Should I reverse faces at any of the import or export stages? 

Thanks again,
Brian

You should Reverse Faces when exporting, yes. But that just determines whether the polygons face you or face away from you (won't affect a morph file).

In fact, I don't think any of the options for importing or exporting make any difference at all for a morph target.

Are you sure that you're using Riptide for both importing and exporting?  Both of those menu options are found in the 'Plugins' menu instead of the regular file menu.

If you're certain that you are using Riptide for both import and export (the Riptide Options dialog opens up each time), then either the mesh is bad as it's exported (which would be strange) or something else is re-ordering the vertices.

Things to try:

1. export the head, then re-import it as a morph.  when using the that morph dial, 'nothing' should happen at all.

2. if the above step works, import the head into C4D (using Riptide) and just move ONE vertex (or one polygon) somewhere that you can verify later.  Then export that (using Riptide) and import that into Poser as a morph and see if that works.

...it might also help if you post an image of what you're calling 'explodes'.  I the entire head moving up/down? or does it look like random vertices are moving at random, making a very zagged mesh?

I'm using riptide from the plugin menu.  by explode, I mean the vertices fire out in random directions, or implode randomly. 

I'll try a few imports and exports to deduce the problem.

Perhaps I incorrectly exported the file from Poser?

I've had it working well for me the past few days.  the trick was 'no mesh splitting' on import.

thanks for everyone's help!