Bobasaur wrote: I do make suggestions or critique things on occasion when they're posted in threads in the forum. I have found that for some images the best way to get across what you mean is to actually post another image - an example or something with arrows on it to identify specific things. I've even been known to take the image that was being critiqued and postwork it to depict what I meant - purely to clarify my meaning and only when interacting directly with the artist who's work I was critiquing. Sometimes that's the only way an idea can be communicated effectively since we often use words differently. That can't be done in the galleries.

Pointing to mistakes works but post working something to your Idea might not be the same as what the artist was trying to do. Not saying that is what you mean.

This brings up an Idea, hopefuly wont be flamed out as my other ones. How about someone posts an image and everyone does thier fix to it and see how many do the same thing and how many go a complete different approach to it. Maybe go as far as a set up scene and have everyone do thier stuff to it and see what the different versions look like against each other.

interesting idea

first of all, people have disagreed with you, not flamed you.  second of all, that's a completely different idea.  isn't that exactly what the "render remix" thread in the daz pc forum is?  sounds cool, but i'm not sure why you'd post it here?  if you want to do that, just start a thread for it.

though it's funny you bring this up.  i had been thinking about how it would have been much simpler to draw my reaction to Anasta's piece than it was to try to describe it.  sometimes, when the change you're suggesting is visual, it can be easier to just sketch it out than explain it.  one of the best critiques i've ever read was a reaction to kurt lundqvist's work.  the person explained how to make a more dynamic composition/camera angle, and it was so clear because he posted sketches of what he meant.  and it was great information for anyone interested in doing comics.

i've been prefacing my comments with the critique group, because i'm trying to really do an analysis.  as Tissaia mentioned, i didn't want to seem like a troll or overly harsh.  it's basically my, "the artist asked for this, i'm not just randomly getting critical on them" tag. 

I think a sketch of what you're trying to say would be perfectly acceptable but I don't know that I'd be too happy seeing someone take my render and do their own postwork on it, could you imagine how intimidating that would be for someone without as much experience or talent? 

And cobalt, I knew what you were trying to get across in your comment mostly because anytime I make something I can always see 15 or so other ways of doing it. It is nice though to hear someone else say what you can see in your mind but decided against for whatever reason.

Edit IMO I had thought because of the tilt of her head that having hair moving that way was acceptable... Just a thought :)

I commented on one image I think. I used "Critique Group"... I do see how that does cliquish.  I'll just leave comments and leave out the group thing.  Besides, the person says they are open to all kinds of comments, it shouldn't matter if they come from part of a group or from someone else. The important thing is the comment.

Beryld, You are absolutely correct. My suggestion is my suggestion. It's based on my opinions and tastes and subjective style and I always try to make sure that's emphatically empasized. I would be extremely disappointed if anyone ever thought I was saying my suggestion was the "right" way to do something. What I mean by 'my idea' might be something as simple as showing how different an image would look if it was cropped differently. I once saw a critique here where someone described the artwork as being "flat." The artist took great offense, thinking that the critic meant "boring." That wasn't what was meant. "Flat" is a term used in lighting describing the effect of light on an object. If something is very evenly lit from the front it often looks "flat." If it's lit well then the curvature and shape of the objects (and the way the shadows look) are more pronounced and the object truly does look more like it's got a 3rd dimension (depth). The critic was using a valid, non-derogatory industry term but the artist didn't understand what the critic was talking about and ugliness ensued. It would have saved a lot of heartache if the critic had simply used a bit of postwork to deepen the shadows and pop out the highlites to demonstrate what they meant. Just as an aside, I've only done this when I couldn't think of another way to show what I was suggesting. I also only use it to empasize a specific area - a lighting or composition tip - rather than doing it just to "make the picture right." It's not my picture to redo - and that's way too time intensive. BTW I do like your idea of a kind of a 'challenge.' That's something that can be encouraged by anyone in the forum and can be a lot of fun. As long as there are no prizes involved it can be very informal. ;-)

I'll be glad to take part as time permits too!

How did this turn into a fight?  It seemed so purely constructive. 

cobaltdream. I posted the idea here because I used bobasaurs quote that gave me the idea. Don't worry I will not post here again after this reply

Bobasaur. I do know what you mean. visual is usually easer to understand, no matter what language. My statement was not implying anything.

No fight as far as I know, I just tried to give a simple Idea, didn't know it would bother anyone the way it did.

OK guys I'm gonna pull this back to topic... I edited my last upload using as many of the critiques as I felt it needed personally... I added a shadow to the hairline (considering my original one got softened out LOL) I got rid of the blaring white spot, added some lashes and did something about the grey-ish lips... 

No need to comment again just lemme know here or send me a site email letting me know what you think.

Thanks so much for this guys, I really think its taught me alot and we've only made it through a single upload LOL!

Hugs!

I, for one, intend to enjoy this group as an opportunity to get ,and give, honest opinions and to see the work of artists I might not catch in browsing the gallery. 

Acadia, I don't see how you putting Critique Group on your comments could be seen as cliquish at all.  A group only becomes a clique when it is exclusive. It seems to me that everyone joining want this group to be inclusive.

I think this is a fantastic idea; I would love to be able to give constructive criticism without worrying that I might offend someone who didn't wish for a critique (and conversely let people know that it is open season on my own images). I do have a problem with the current execution of the critique club. Well, I'm just basically too lazy to hunt down images from a "favorites" list or e-bot notices. I would much rather have a specific gallery, where I could go and know that any image posted there is open for honest critique. I am much more likely to post comments to a greater variety of images and artists this way. Plus, with a special critique gallery, I can choose to NOT post an image to that gallery. To me it is important to have the choice to keep some piece of fluff I post out of the line of fire. Do we all really want honest critique on every image we post? :unsure:

@Beryld, I didn't think it was a fight either. I tried to clarify what I said a little bit further but I didn't think you were "against" me on any issue. That's why the first thing I said in my post was "You are absolutely correct." Since there is no fight regarding that subject, what are your thoughts on Severus Snape? Is he a good guy and a true ally of Dumbledore (even though he appeared to kill him) or was he truly a servant of "He who must not be named" as Harry Potter has suspected for years? I know a good fight - just below the banning/thread locking level of intensity- can really bump up a thread's readership. Maybe we can provide one for everyone's benefit and entertainment... [big grin]

no fights here yet, no flames. they're just tryinta work out the details IMVHO.

I would like to sign in. A constructive criticism is the way to learn.

You can mark it non critical, I guess for the moment people will just have to remember to look at the advisory first.

I was wondering about this for the stuff that needs to go in the Product Showcase, but I can just turn off comments for that stuff I guess.

Dumbledore played with fire and got burnt.  No problems here.

OK, now this is my last post. No, really.

Annibel, Deecey, fivecat and Rutra, got you all added :-)

Can I please ask that people keep this thread on topic - you know I don't normally mind thread drift, but it's making it a little hard for me to keep track of new signups and I don't want to miss anyone!

Beryl, that sounds like a good idea for a challenge - why not post a new thread and invite people to take part :-)

About creating a new gallery - We are going to carry on with this method for a week or two, and then I will assess how much interest there is (and how much interest is retained - we all know that many people will sign up to something in the first flush of interest and then forget all about it!) If there is sufficient traffic and value, then I'll ask Admin to create a new gallery. My issue at present is that a new gallery will require the same staffing needs as the existing Poser gallery, which takes five of us. So I'd need to assess how many images would be likely to be posted on average and work out if we'd need to take on more staff. My concern would be that it will need very active modding to keep out any trolls who think that "Please critique me" means "Please swear at me and call me an idiot" :sneaky:

I was also thinking that what might put some off posting in a specific gallery is that it's not likely to get as many views as Poser main. Although something that would be interesting, would be to post an initial image in the Critique gallery, and then a later version, with all the critique taken on board, in the main galleries. 

Anyway, as I say, that is for the future and yet to be decided.

I want in too. I'm tired of:"Excelent, Nice AO, Love the pose.... and so on...". Hope this works.....beter, I pray this works.

Just as a quick note... having signed up for this, I'm goig to be rather quiet for the next couple of weeks, due to surgery. I'll try and upload at least a couple of images before I go, and put my tuppenorth in here and there - but if you hear nothing from me for a bit, it's not cos I've lost interest, I promise... :)

jonthecelt

Karen: On the maintaining interest thing, I already said due to personal issues I won't be that active for at least a few weeks depending on how long it takes for me to sort the problem [if I do!], so please don't mark me down as a "non combatant" [LOL] until the end of April. Ta!!

Karen,

does it take as many people [5] to moderate a new forum?

just so you know, i did read that you'd like to try out your methodology first. :))
i only suggest the idea of a forum instead because i think there might be greater opportunity for better discussion, such as the artist being able to come back and ask about a specific thing that someone has said that they might want clarification on, or someone commenting thinks of something else to say after their first initial response.  true, that could be done via IM, but the most valuable part of critiques lies within the exchange of information, not just for the artist who posts, but for those who care to participate.  it would also allow for the "visual" types of explanations that someone brought up, and the posting artist can say in their post whether they are open to such things or not.  it alleviates the need to add favourites as well, and the need to monitor the galleries since it would be a centralised place, and people can opt to either receive e-bots from a post that most interests in them or not.  plus, if there are pieces that a member from the group doesn't want to have critiqued [such as a Product Showcase pic or something], it is a non-issue at that point.

and of course, an image that has been critiqued and p'raps re-worked can always be posted into the galleries afterwards, and the artist can link to their forum post if they choose to which could attract more people...

anyway, just a thought...

i am very interested in participating, but feel a little hesitant to do so for a number of reasons, so i'll think a little on it first...

i do wish to say thank you for taking the initiative to try to get something like this started - long overdue, in my opine :))

Guess you can add my name to the list as well. David

I realy hope this get read..
When you upload a image and want this group of people to comment i think is wise/smart :}
That you put some info with the image like:
Postwork Yes / No
Postwork Intended Yes/no
In what program you did the final render.

In this case when NO postwork is intended "so you did try to do the best "poser" can do  "
Comments about Postworking are not needed ..because postwork was not intended..
Does this make sence?...

When "you" give some more INFO about what and why of the image its easyer to comment on the right points. 
A image that has postwork in it then can have comments about the postwork.

Some people try to get the best out of poser without postwork, and then getting all kind of Postwork comments is not that helpfull..

Please remember that i write this with the best intentions to all !!!

I like this Critique Group         "CG"

greets 
Chirs 

Guess you can add my name to the list as well.

David

The best way to add yourself is ADD all the members in the list to your Favo's Artist and as comment :Critique Group         
When I see you ADD of me i can simply ADD you to my list and we're done..

Chris

Sorry my understanding was to post here in the topic. If that's not how it works then please let me know. David

You dont have to say sorry :}
But when you put your message here , you still have to ADD us all to your list and then we ALL ad you ..so the way to do it stays the same. :-}
When you read the first message i think it will become clear to you..

C.

Ok this was suposed to be a EDIT ..but that didnot work :}

I like you all to give Me /others that have the option ON.
To Give me a RATE for the image .. a OVERALL RATE that is ..
So please RATE my images aswell i do that to all that have the RATE option ON with the image

thnx again for your time
Chris

my response, cut/pasted from the other thread which i think started this one [?] :

since the "Today's Most Commented" images are between 80 and 48 comments, and we're only 30 people so far, even if every member commented on every image,  we'd be far from the top.

please believe me when i say i am not picking on anybody by typing my thought process to the above :))

if the group grows, then it will become a factor
if say BillyBob123Niner [made up name i hope] already receives on the average 16 or so comments naturally without signing up, then signs up, he will start to receive on average 46 or comments, so it will artificially effect the 'Most Commented' section [a pointless section to begin with, imo, but not my point]

i'd much rather see & participate in a Critique Forum rather than have things occur within the Galleries... i'd prefer not to have this wonderful idea tainted by negative perspectives or suspicions, like joining to artifically inflate one's Favourite listing or to get in the Most Commented section or whatever... anything that could be done to help the perception of true intent of the group, i feel, is extremely important, especially since some people participating might already feel more "vunerable" due to opening up to critiques in the first place...

I think that "problem" will not have a long life..
I for one see that the Best and most List are ruled by who has the most "buddy's" here..
The comments like "good work" etc etc are only for those list to get in there..
joining this list does not give you loads of "good work" comments .. so i dont think naybody will join this CG for that reason ..otherwise if theydo it wont help em.. because let say "you" make a not that good image just to get in the best of list ..and get 80 negative crittics is not realy fun...

I have NO problem with image from this group getting No1 in both of those list at all...
Knowing that the comments from this group are more then "good work"

And i think it should be real funny that a image from a "unknown" gets the N0 1 spot instead of the best buddys list its now...

So let us see what happens :]
  

Quote - Ok this was suposed to be a EDIT ..but that didnot work :}

I like you all to give Me /others that have the option ON.
To Give me a RATE for the image .. a OVERALL RATE that is ..
So please RATE my images aswell i do that to all that have the RATE option ON with the image

thnx again for your time
Chris

I have to agree with you on this one... thinking of after so many critical comments (this is personally so I can't speak for everyone) it can get rather frustrating and so to have people rating as well it kinda softens the blow, make sense? I'm not saying try to fluff our egos by rating the image but if you feel it deserves it then go for it.

As for the art charts, I mostly don't pay attention to myself compared to other artists. Its not really fair to judge one artists work to anothers only because of different styles or experience keep them from being rightly comparable. When I pay attention to comparison its a 'personal best' or seeing how well I am doing compared to what I used to do. I feel like I'm sorta babbling on but does everyone see my point? So when I see 30 or so comments on my newest image I like to know how it compares to my last post not how much better or worse it is to 'highest rated most commented image'.

i do see what you're saying, BC, but i think i'm simply of a different opinion/perspective...

and part of what concerns me should i choose to join is the whole "Us vs. Them" kind of thinking, whoever "Us" is or "Them" are, as expressed even in your above comment [not picking on you as i can appreciate/respect your viewpoint]

i pretty much keep to myself because i know that this site is a hornet's nest for socio-politico crap, and though i mayn't know a whole lot about what goes on here because i try to avoid those things as much as possible, i'd have to be very unobservant to not notice that perception & then gossip/word-of-mouth plays a role on this site... and i'd have to be equally as unobservant as to not realise that some people are highly susceptible & concerned with how they are perceived...

my suggestion for a Forum instead of doing things through the Galleries, i feel, could take care of a number of things that were mentioned in this thread more readily, plus it could possibly make things yet mentioned non-issues...
it was simply a suggestion...   

what i want, truly truly want, is for something like what Karen is trying to set-up to be as successful as possible... and i do see success as not only a matter of how many people join & participate, but how effective it is, how the idea is perceived in its intent so as to encourage others to come & join and feel comfortable doing so, how emotionally and intellectually rewarding is it, etc.?

i want the focus to be about ART, about learning & growing, about sharing and investing in positive ways to the overall community... and it would be quite nice to have as few negative stigmas, whether real or perceptually speaking, attached to it as possible...

john, good luck with the surgery! keep us informed on the outcome.

All I've got to say is its about freakin' time.

I'm in 100%.

Let me know once I've been added. I will then add all you guys as my faves.

You know, this ought to be the norm, and not the exception. I appreciate the kind comments I get, but they aren't really helpful in getting me to develop my skills. There should be two comment categories. One for syncophants and the other for constructive criticisms.

I will add you all as well, and want you to add me.
I have not posted much pictures, but I will try to change that.

All comments are wellcome, but I would like to improve my lighting skills.

Thank you all in advance.

add me :)

Of course we are just beginning and like anything else we are taking slow steps at the moment. but I hope this will grow and develope and be of use to us all :)

Count me in.

Sometimes an image doesn't "click", and I can't find out what's wrong. Meaningful critique can be a great help.

I think not all images I have uploaded/will upload are "meant for critique". It might be a good idea to use the dropdown - if I post an image where I explicitly WANT critique, I'll set it for the "critical comments preferred" option. An ordinary upload (I've got a series going on, in a certain style that plan to maintain) will be set to "both critical and non critical comments".

Critique can come in many different flavors. My latest couple of images were posted to show one of my modeling works in progress - a fantasy armor set for Victoria 4. The critique I'm looking for is critique on the modeling, not on lighting and composition.
In other images I might look for input on lighting, or poses, or whatever. Maybe even writing.

Anyway, this is a great idea. When I browse through my personal gallery, almost all comments are in the "ooh and ahh" category, which doesn't help me. I'd love serious critical input, and I'm not easily offended.

Sign me up please. I'm interested in any kind of critique people want to offer. I do pinups, portraits, and sometimes surreal or goofy stuff. 

Quote - Let me know once I've been added. I will then add all you guys as my faves.

There isn't any formal "membership", just start favoriting people and commenting.  Although it would be good if a mod/coordinator adjusted the page 1 list to include the various people who want to participate.

It will have to be a moderator.  Us minions don't have access to the really L33t  functions, hehe

EDIT:  Lots and lots of people signing up for this.  I can't promse that I will be able to comment on each and every image uploaded, but I'll do my best to comment as much as I can.

bandolin
bantha
Dave
linkdink
svdl
Tiari
All been added...

I'm really really excited to see so many people signing up for this! I think we can make a real cultural shift in the galleries if this goes on - dispelling the notion that "nobody wants critique". At the same time, we can achieve this without upsetting the people who are just here as hobbyists and only want to share and praise each other.

I think we all understand that time is a changing factor for all of us - don't feel beholden to comment on every image uploaded by members. I'd rather have 10 well-thought-out and helpful critiques than 30 rushed ones :-)

Thanks for the efforts Karen.

Thanks for your efforts Karen, probably with this group, i will most likely not view a lot of the "general gallery" but check out who on the list has uploaded things as i check my email.  This way i can more easily focus on members who want to help me, and know, good praise isn't to get me to be buddy buds, but an honest "I really love this" if i get one.

I will make a note however.  I've added everyone on the list (so far), and intend to give critique, however I might stop critiquing in any galleries that are ALL v4 head portraits, or all buxom pin ups.  (same goes for galleries all of blood and gore).  They may be quite good, but with real conscience, if I know the genre of the gallery does not appeal to me (no matter how well done), I am unlikely to be able to look at its artistic merritt, and with an unbiased outlook.

I just wanted to thank everyone who commented on my image.

I got the render to a certain level, and I got sort of an itch at the back of my brain when something wasn't quite right, and then couldn't put my finger on what was missing. 

I really appreciate the help :)

Question: I guess that this is to critic technical aspects, right? "Need more work on the lights, on expression, on BG, etc, etc, etc". But, some aspects of the critic going to vary according to the genre? Even it´s just in the technical aspect, a manga/anime pic needs to be analysed in other way than a pin-up pic...just a question...

Anyway, I always think that arts, specially digital ones, are in some way like be a doctor. There is always space for improvement and learning, so sign me in. I´m preparing a 3D manga, and some critics always gonna help...

First critic I need: It´s my English understandable?

For me, it is understandable, whatever that means... (I am german). And yes, at least the critique I give will be techical most of the time. And still - critique does not mean you have to do it the way the others tell you. You may ignore everything.

DarkPascual, your English is OK.  :)

Hey, I'll sign on.

I guess I have to put something in my gallery!

Here is an issue that I see happening....all ready noticed that when images get critiques we then go back and fix what was wrong then repost...right?  I dont see having 2,3,or 4 images of the same thing in my gallery...so is there any way to get a WIP gallery to post in? so when its  is a solid work we can then post in our regular galley.
Just wondering
RandC