Is it me or did anyone else notice? I'm not too sure, but it seems to me that in many many renders teeth end up looking too bright. Even in those where the 'nostril flow' has been fixed, the teeth, where they should be in a shadow, look too bright... Like a commercial for Orbitz!
Ends up making smiling faces somewhat unnatural?

You only notice the teeth?  Not the levitating 48DD, the 1cm nose, or stuff like that? (things I am guilty of myself sometimes)

LOL, you crack me up!!!!   Yea, I notice that too...
And plastic looking hands and feet next to super realistic faces, and underarms with no pectoral attachment and and and nervous laugh    But if I keep talking about all the flaws that I see, I'll become universally hated in here :(

I encourage you to point these things out in my own gallery at least, that's the whole reason I'm here.  Not that realism is a big goal for me but I'd like it to be my choice rather than just ignorance.

I will, I will... however, your images are so good, I don't see very many flaws!
Then there are other images where I don't know where to begin :(   
I know, pick one... sometimes it's hard to do that.

Actually, your last rendering made me think of teeth, because the smile of the character didn't look like an orbitz commercial.

On a totally side note, YAY, I'm finally done - as I hear a computer beep here, I ve been playing computer surgery last three evenings, looks like one of the computer crapped out. Perhaps this weekend I can finish that Victorian shoes freebie. I finally got the rigging to work right!  That'll be my Poser freebies debut, I guess.   [oaky, enough, I'm rambling here]

While most people remember to set up ambient occlusion on the nostrils... they usually forget about teeth, I always (at least try to lol) remember to add it to the lips and teeth to keep them from being glow-in-the-dark :P It also helps make a not-so-realistic lip texture look better with inner mouth shadows.

Quote - Is it me or did anyone else notice? I'm not too sure, but it seems to me that in many many renders teeth end up looking too bright. Even in those where the 'nostril flow' has been fixed, the teeth, where they should be in a shadow, look too bright... Like a commercial for Orbitz!
Ends up making smiling faces somewhat unnatural?

Often yes.
Sadly it's not only the brightness/whiteness but the lack in matching teeth color and skin color.
I don't even want to speak about teeth colors and age and lifestyle.
For some sort of portrait picture it is certainly more important to get the teeth colors right if the teeths are visible than it would be in some larger scene.
Considering all the other errors in any arbitrary picture I won't say this is among the major esthetical transgressions.

Hmm, I purposefully throw a bit of white (well, off-white, truthfully) in the ambient node (usually with texture attached to avoid heavy shadows on the teeth, which can make them look like they have huge cavities.  I also throw a tight glossy on, too, because I don't want the teeth to look dry.

Now I'm going to have to go look at my stuff and study the teeth and see if I'm guilty of over-polishing! LOL.

Okay, never mind, I guess my characters don't open their mouths much.  (Which makes me wonder why I spend time on teeth!  Hmm, must get lost in the creative process.)

Here's a link to my favorite teeth pic  (and only really good one in my gallery!  IMHO)

Let me know if the teeth suck, I really need to know if I'm overdoing it.

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/index.php?image_id=1302988

(Warning:  NO NUDITY!)

Quote - Okay, never mind, I guess my characters don't open their mouths much.  (Which makes me wonder why I spend time on teeth!  Hmm, must get lost in the creative process.)

Here's a link to my favorite teeth pic  (and only really good one in my gallery!  IMHO)

Let me know if the teeth suck, I really need to know if I'm overdoing it.

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/index.php?image_id=1302988

(Warning:  NO NUDITY!)

Paying attention to the invisible details isn't always a bad thing... :p
The teeth in your picture look great for a living person. The teeth are of color A2, I would say, what's not bad for a dead and rotten person, lol. I forgot about the non real-world pictures before...

I figured since I recently posted the Ultra Basic Skin Shader and the Reflecting/Refracting/SSS Eye shader, and I'm currently working on the Procedural Iris Shader, that next would come the "Lacrimal/Lips/Gums Shader" (wet red skin), and finally the Tooth Fairy shader. :biggrin:

Thromm - Putting some ambient is a good idea, because there is significant SSS in teeth - way more than skin. However, it should not be white - use yellow, then let the specular whiten the highlights by making it slightly blue. This is the same trick as the UBSS.

So here he is with a 100% procedural tooth shader - the simplest I could make it. What do we think?

A simple photoshop trick:
 ( I realize this may be very elementary for some, but others might not know)

If you know how to use quick mask - select the teeth with that.  If not just use the lasso.

Go to Image>Adjustments> hue and saturation 

Adjust hue upwards - anywhere between +1-12 works for me.

then Image>adjustments>brightness and contrast.  Decrease brightness a bit.

I've used this mainly in photographs.  I dont show teeth much in poser because I hate thier perfection.

That is exceptionally good BB - then again I expected no less!

I keep my characters mouths closed for two reasons:

1. I smile with my lips firmly closed because I hate my teeth.
2. Their teeth are worse than mine but in that horribly plastic way.

You know if you want to share this shader I may even install Matmatic

Bill you're fantastic! When you release this I want it too! Then there's the Lacrimal's, Nostrils and for those who are so inclined, vaginal shaders.

[quoteOften yes.
Sadly it's not only the brightness/whiteness but the lack in matching teeth color and skin color.
I don't even want to speak about teeth colors and age and lifestyle.
For some sort of portrait picture it is certainly more important to get the teeth colors right if the teeths are visible than it would be in some larger scene.
Considering all the other errors in any arbitrary picture I won't say this is among the major esthetical transgressions. 

I hear ya!  And especially the last statement, about it not being one of the major transgressions.
I think where it bothered me the most is in merchant packs where sometimes you get teeth with warm gray-olive skin match coloring, and a pink based skin texture (or vice versa).
Actually I noticed something similar in eye's sclera coloring.

I dunno, it sort of dovetails a little bit into the ongoing discussions about poser supposedly being looked down on by 'professionals'. I'm no professional by any stretch of the immagination, but I do have some sort of an artsy fartsy background by the way of my mom beiong a professional, and having homeschooled me on it a lot.
I dunno, my art knowledge may pass for a mediocre first year art student....

I keep thinking, If,, with my limited knowledge, I can pick out things like that, then someone with a lot more education and years of training in art can spot a LOT more things, and it can be tough for them to comment or act encouraging without inadvertantly sounding patronizing.

Also I look at htings this way, in my schooled profession, which is Civil Engineering and Land Surveying, when somene tells me (full of excitement) that they found their property corner, or pored concrete on their patio, it's extremely difficult for me to show them the same excitement as another neighbor might, and when I try, it's extremely hard for me to not come across as contrived.
Blah blah... I got interrupted several times while writing this, and forgot where I waas going with it... LOL

Quote - Ben has the worst tooth texture map - it is unusable. So I figure that if I can get his teeth to look ok without a texture map, then the shader would look even better with one.

So here he is with a 100% procedural tooth shader - the simplest I could make it. What do we think?

The wetness looks rather realistic, maybe just a tad overexposed. The teeth coloring seems to be 'cool hue based' and against his pinkish skin look a tad too stark. I think if you move the hue little towards the warmer end of the spectrum, it would look really good.
So far so good :D  It's a big improvement over the original!

Quote - Okay, never mind, I guess my characters don't open their mouths much.  (Which makes me wonder why I spend time on teeth!  Hmm, must get lost in the creative process.)

Here's a link to my favorite teeth pic  (and only really good one in my gallery!  IMHO)

Let me know if the teeth suck, I really need to know if I'm overdoing it.

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/index.php?image_id=1302988

(Warning:  NO NUDITY!)

Arrghh, okay since you asked (I feel like I'm being a killjoy) really, I don't mean it's no good, but lately we seem to have a trend in trying to perfect things, so I've gotten pickier...  All in the spirit of raising standards... I hope?

I'm looking at her mouth only - Teeth alone don't look bad, but I am noticing some things. For example, with as much light on the teeth, the exposed part of her gums should have as much litght hitting them as the teeth, therefore the ambient light on both should be similar. Her gums look almost black. Was that intended, or accidental?  Perhaps deep red gums would be even more dramatic then black? (of course, it may be just my madness at the moment)  then I look at her tongue, and its brighter then teeth and gums... makes me think, where is that light coming from, and why do I not see it on teeth, and especially not on the gums?
The hue of her teeth... her complexion has a lot of  blues and cool tones, which appears to be due to the light. In this case, the teeth should pick up some of that blue tinge.

Of course, all this is valid only of you were shooting for a certain level of realisam. If things are the way you intended them, then please disregard my babbling here :)  
Sorry, this is kind of tough for me, I see a relly well done piece, and I feel like a poopy killjoy picking it apart :(  Look at it as little details that can turn excellent work into superb!
And, often it's a lot easier said then done.  I do find it harder to do these little things in poser then in some other apps, because of it's lighting system.

Here's an example of teeth that (at least to me) seem to fit the character. Rather then looking like they were transplanted from elsewhere.

http://features.cgsociety.org/gallerycrits/5225/5225_1179324324_large.jpg

They look a tad plastic for a realistic character, but the whole character in the image looks a tad jelly/plastic like, so the teeth fit the rest of the character. Also, the lighting and ambient is consistent with scene lighting. Where there is very little light, the teeth are darker. The highlights are bright, but they don't have washed out hotspots, but just a tiny litlle sparkle.

Something my mom always taught me about drawing, painting art in general is that you almost never use pure white or pure blacks in images that are supposed to have a level of reality to them. In reality, things that may appear black or white to us are never pure white or black.

Quote - Also I look at htings this way, in my schooled profession, which is Civil Engineering and Land Surveying, when somene tells me (full of excitement) that they found their property corner, or pored concrete on their patio, it's extremely difficult for me to show them the same excitement as another neighbor might, and when I try, it's extremely hard for me to not come across as contrived.

Well, I'm also no artist inasmuch as I got no formal training. I have to work with artists sometimes and in my family are / were quite a few whose artisitc POV's collides with my scientific (theoretical physics) POV on a daily basis...
It's fascinating what someone with many years artistic experience and a good amount of talent can see where others see nothing, no matter how long they look.

If I point out something then it's mostly physics or medicine related stuff because that's what I see first and most precisely. The ability to rejoice with someone about his artwork is limited by my ability to see a picture as an expression or personal achievement of this person. Therefore, if I don't know the artist well, an emotional analysis of any picture is a difficult task while it's easy to analyze the picture in any scientific or psychological way.

And this is one important point I think. Most people see in a face not more than what they need to see in to survive an encounter. They can't point out asymmetries or mathematical expressions that describe parts of the many shapes in a face. After they were told what they have to look for, they will see it. And sometimes one will only see these things to an extent of being blind for any beauty in a structure.
But all (healthy) humans can see without much training if something is wrong with a human face. Something like to regular teeth or to big/small eyes or a strange skin color or ... can be continued ad infinitum.

Often the teeth are not visible in paintings. If there's a need to show them then they are often depicted not ultra realistic.
For artists without profound knowledge about histology many issues are simply not relevant.
Doing the teeth right but failing on the different skin areas and types won't lead to a better final picture than failing in all areas. lol...

Finally the eyes/teeth can be used to convey something and doing them in a realistic way could interfere with what the artist want to convey; what leads me to the next quote...

Quote - Here's an example of teeth that (at least to me) seem to fit the character. Rather then looking like they were transplanted from elsewhere. http://features.cgsociety.org/gallerycrits/5225/5225_1179324324_large.jpg

They look a tad plastic for a realistic character, but the whole character in the image looks a tad jelly/plastic like, so the teeth fit the rest of the character. Also, the lighting and ambient is consistent with scene lighting. Where there is very little light, the teeth are darker. The highlights are bright, but they don't have washed out hotspots, but just a tiny litlle sparkle.

Something my mom always taught me about drawing, painting art in general is that you almost never use pure white or pure blacks in images that are supposed to have a level of reality to them. In reality, things that may appear black or white to us are never pure white or black.

This plant looks great with these teeth because they incorporate important attributes of this specific plant.
What worries me about this picture is the reflection of the pencils lac (or is it like in french "laque"?) that is to dull, the clay that is to reflective for clay and not reflective enough for enameled clay and the paper without surface structure and the light's wavelenght that would cause a bluish reflection on the periodic table on the desk. And so on...
But the teeth look well done for the purpose.
A good start would be if teeth are not always plain white or gray but have the natural gradient that the hydroxyapatite crystallites have by default. The worst job would be to get the around 1100 noteworthy diffraction patterns of this material right. That sounds like long long render sessions...
Maybe 2 refraction patterns, gradient color and a rough, irregular surface would do the job for the beginning.

Quote - That is exceptionally good BB - then again I expected no less!

I keep my characters mouths closed for two reasons:

1. I smile with my lips firmly closed because I hate my teeth.
2. Their teeth are worse than mine but in that horribly plastic way.

I think teeth are on the fringes of the over-acted facial expressions. Which can be similar to a mis-timed photograph. And, generally, Poser users have the whites a little too white and the blacks a little too black. I look at the sheet of paper in my printer, slightly curved, and there's a difference in brightness as the angle changes. You need that little bit of room. Besides, it helps when somebody else views the picture on their monitor, or prints a copy. You can't print whiter than the paper.

Bagginsbill - Thanks, I'll try and stear a little more to the yellow next time I show some teeth.  Your shader is purely awesome, I will definately keep an eye open for when you post it.  You captured the wetness and translucent effect exceptionally, I can't get over them - maybe your best work yet... well that cloth was eye-wateringly good, but I digress...

Conniekat8 - Don't worry about sounding like a killjoy, I would never have posted the link if I had a fragile ego, LOL.

I really think you are right about the gums.  I can dismiss it a bit and say, "well she is undead", but honestly I never really noticed how badly those teeth (and the tongue) stand out against those gums.  Weird.

I will admit this is a much older pic, done in Poser 5 and I didn't use any AO on it.  I think if I tried a pic like this again it might turn out much different.  At the time it was bit of a happy accident as it was meant to be a background character in a different pic that I never did finish to my satisfaction.  (An interesting side-note, this is the reduced-resolution V3)

Anyway, though I usually don't aim for a complete realistic style, I still think that knowing what is more real and trying to employ those aspects even down to the finest detail only add, even when going for something more comic-book or painted in tone.  Heck, the great renaissance painters still paid close attention to the real world around them.

I think another detail that is often missing from teeth (and admittedly, they are seen from a distance, usually) is gradient.  Teeth are rarely one colour right across (unless we are talking all the gals I knew in Hollywood... creepy white!).

FYI I used no ambient on those teeth. I used the same shader as my ultra basic skin shader - just changed the colors - then added some Glossy.

Apparently, the UBSS technique has hit on how to get sss/translucence - not perfectly - but it's recognizable.

This is the UBSS?  No kidding eh?

You are right, I think you've hit on something really close.  Now I have to go play with it and see about things like milk! LOL.

No kidding. It's UBSS with different colors and no texture map or bump map. Instead, I used a tiny bit of turbulence for the bump. And I added the glossy node. You can use reflection on it too, but it's not necessary. I did use it above. Make sure it's very low and use an EdgeBlend for Fresnel effect too. Fresnel is everywhere. I make no shaders without it any more.

@Zarat
I agree with you on all points! Well said, if I may addd.
LOL, I didn't even pay attention to the rest of that pic, I was so focused on teeth.

Conniekat8 - Don't worry about sounding like a killjoy, I would never have posted the link if I had a fragile ego, LOL.
Whew! Well, I was worried! I've said the same myself before, then once I actually read what was sead, I'd go... uh,oh, I wasn't ready for that! LOL
I really think you are right about the gums.  I can dismiss it a bit and say, "well she is undead", but honestly I never really noticed how badly those teeth (and the tongue) stand out against those gums.  Weird.
Sometimes it's hard to notice it all! I know for me it definately is.
Anyway, though I usually don't aim for a complete realistic style, I still think that knowing what is more real and trying to employ those aspects even down to the finest detail only add, even when going for something more comic-book or painted in tone.  Heck, the great renaissance painters still paid close attention to the real world around them.
Yeah, even stylistic stuff needs to be believable, which comes from interaction between elements in the picture. So I'm told... how to put it in practice, that's a whole another can of worms.
*I think another detail that is often missing from teeth (and admittedly, they are seen from a distance, usually) is gradient.  Teeth are rarely one colour right across (unless we are talking all the gals I knew in Hollywood... creepy white!).
*Excellent observation! :)
I was looking at some photo retouching tutorials before finding that toothy plant rendering, but decided against just for the reason you mentioned: Hollywood advertizing images don't depict 'realistic' ;)

Quote - No kidding. It's UBSS .....

UBSS? :blink: I can't figure out what UBSS stands for... :blink: ?

Attached Link: Ultra Basic Skin Shader

Ah! THANK YOU Bagginsbill!
Serves me well for not getting around to using your wonderful creations ;)
For some reason I've been doing a lot of modelling and talking in the past few months, and not as much texturing and rendering - goes in spurts :)

I've been meaning to post this for a while.

I find that setting AO on on the brightest light in the scene works quite well, at least in Poser 7.

No teeth visible in these examples, but it works. Check out the 'nose glow'.

1. No AO on main light, depth-mapped shadows
2. AO at 0.5 on main light, depth-mapped shadows
3. A0 at 1.0 on main light, ray-traced shadows

The difference in render times (firefly, obviously) between 1 and 2 is negligible. 3 takes considerably longer; I think it's better, but not by much.