Who I am is unimportant. What I am about to do, may be.

I found myself in posession of space and unlimited bandwidth on a server, thanks to a family member who happens to own a web-hosting company. I have been in 3D for a long time. I have worked in the industry and know these sites well. I posted under this username because I want an unbiased opinion from everyone.

I want to concentrate on the people who do not do this as a career or as a job, but on the hobbyist. On you.

What I want to do is this. I have begun building a website that will help foster and provide for those who want to learn more from the 3D/CG hobby that we all share. I have registered a domain name, and have begun building the site.

What I want to know is, what do you want to see in it? What would you like it to do for you?

I'll posit a couple of thoughts here...

Yes, I know Renderosity does a lot of what most people think of. Lots of sites do some or much of this. Problem is, they're either niche, or they're Stores - focused on The Bottom Line first and foremost. This is not an indictment, but a simple statement of fact. They have to have that focus, or they would die. It is the model they've become chained to out of necessity. We can help them focus on that if they like, while we pursue our hobby.

I don't do stores, I don't want a store. Please don't ever ask me to make this into a store. I want it to focus on you, not on percentages and profit margins.

I think it would be cool to have a shopping guide, based on value, price, and based on actual unbiased experiences. Let people decide one way or the other before they spend their money, if they even want to spend any money at all. But, no store, as there be dragons down that path.

I love freebies. I don't like going to 400 different sites to find them all. I also don't like weeding through the wad of CGShare scams, the "texture set for this oddball out-of-the-way item, which you have to buy first" (on the other hand I LOVE texture sets for other free items). I find myself annoyed at the mis-matched categories, and much of the other problems you find on many of today's sites.  I'd like you to help me fix that, and in return, we all get to find the good stuff that we really want and like, no matter what our tastes are. I also think it would be cool to have a one-stop list of highly recommended sites where good, solid freebies can be had from individuals.

If forums are added, they will be open, free, and they will only concentrate on you, the hobbyist. They will not concentrate on Sales, and not on The Bottom Line, but on you. You deserve better than to be treated as an entity to be studied, kept in line, and shepharded to the store.

Your artwork deserves to be an expression of you, they deserve to be brought forth as the highest of someone's efforts, not as promotional images desperately trying to point you towards spending cash. I think a tiered (or differentiated) gallery would be cool: WIP, Newbies, Mid-level, "Holy sh!t that's good!", top staff picks, things like that.

Tutorials rock. Hunting and pecking for them in Google only to find they aren't exactly what you want, need, or can adapt... doesn't rock. Why not have all of us pool our efforts and help sort them out, point to them, and add them locally as needed?

How many times have you seen someone ask about finding modeling programs for cheap? How many times have you seen something really cool and useful, then realize that no one else has heard of it? How about somewhere that we can all find the latest and best finds?

News? Yes! I love news, especially if it isn't a thinly disguised promotion or press release.

But enough about what I like. What do you like? What would you want to see? Why?

Don't feel comfortable saying it out loud? No problem. IM, and un_authorized (at) comcast.net await, and will remain discreet and confidential.

Thank you for your time, and please, let me know what you think!

one suggestion would be a FAQ database for poser users.

I like that, especially for people new to all of this.

Thank you!

I love freebies. I don't like going to 400 different sites to find them all. 

 Okay ... so when your site is up and running its 401 site's to wade trough ?
As far as i see all you say your gonna do is already here on R'O ..
So for me its a' no thnx dont need the No 401 site ..

Chris 

Did you say "unlimited bandwidth"? Would this mean you could actually host the free items? That would be a huge help! It would also eliminate dead links. What would I, me, personally like to see? Tutorials, especially video tutorials. Again, bandwidth has always been an issue for those. Well, gee.. I just couldn't resist a thread started by Un_authorized and answered by bar-code. ;)

Well, gee.. I just couldn't resist a thread started by Un_authorized and answered by bar-code. ;)

just remember no matter what you buy ..there is ALWAYS a BARCODE to track it :lol: 

Quote - I love freebies. I don't like going to 400 different sites to find them all. 

 Okay ... so when your site is up and running its 401 site's to wade trough ?

Chris 

Maybe I can explain this a bit better. Initially, it will require a lot of hunting down, to point out and post free items available from a list of sites, so that people can narrow down what it is they're looking for, without having to wade through the mess and morass that we do today. RO is but the tip of a very large iceberg of free items, IMHO. Eventually, it is my hope that enough people know about it to directly post infor about their own freebies there, while (in parallel) we keep abreast of as much of everything else as possible. We can even periodically test links to insure that they're still alive (most places end up leading to a lot of dead links once an item announcement starts getting a bit old).

What if you can, from one place, see the vast majority (if not all) of what is available, then investigate further if/when you decide that you want to download a particular item?

Quote - Did you say "unlimited bandwidth"? Would this mean you could actually host the free items? That would be a huge help! It would also eliminate dead links.

What would I, me, personally like to see? Tutorials, especially video tutorials. Again, bandwidth has always been an issue for those.

Yes, unlimited bandwidth. Hosting freebies could be done, but I'd have to check on how much absolute storage space is available. Hosting tutorials, especially video tutorials, would be quite a lovely idea, and thanks to YouTube, storage space for those can be truly unlimited.

Thank you, please keep them coming!

noooo.. not the You Tube!? Poor resolution, not much control, hard to minimize to follow... and we'd all wind up watching funny cat videos! ;)

I really like the idea, what I want from it has already been covered here.  A very comprehensive FAQ and hosting freebies because the dead links and lack of thumbnails or descriptions for ALOT of them kinda sucks.  If I had a place here to post comments about freebies that would be super.  As in "this freebie doesn't work"  or just a review of it.  Reviews would REALLY help those creating the freebies too I think.

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showforum.php?forum_id=12473

Yup, yup, Im there JJ if ya need anything..and we have the new Freestuff Gallery too dont forget.

Also, if you come across dead links in the freestuff area, dont hesitate to let us know..thats alot of items to cover so we might have just not gotten to them yet ;)

Quote -
Your artwork deserves to be an expression of you, they deserve to be brought forth as the highest of someone's efforts, not as promotional images desperately trying to point you towards spending cash. I think a tiered (or differentiated) gallery would be cool: WIP, Newbies, Mid-level, "Holy sh!t that's good!", top staff picks, things like that.

I know there are some who would like a gallery that allowed nudity in thumnails.  Note I said "nudity" not "porn".  I know that there have been many complaints from people because they can't show boobs or butt cheeks in their thumbnails anymore.  And their art while nude is not "pornographic" in nature it's more along the lines of "artistic nudity",  and there doesn't seem to really be a place that's in between for people to post their art IE: nudes but not pornographic.

Also, because of the "no genital region or naked breast contact", people who want to make mild erotica such as 2 people naked and embrassing (not engaged in sex) cannot post their images here because it's against the TOS. However, at the same time they don't want to upload it to a place like Renderotica because sites such as that also allow the extreme.

So something that allows what is allowed here, plus mild erotica where nothing is showing,  but does not allow pornographic or S&M type stuff that some other galleries allow, would probably be very welcome by some people.

I hope my esteemed fellow forum members will not take my post here amiss, even through
I am a recent new comer. Be that as it may, I have:
Some thanks, some questions, and some suggestions.

First, I like to thank you, Un_authorized, for taking an interest in the direction and growth of 3D art. If you can really invest these valuable resources, you will have done a supreme service to the 3D community.

Now here comes the inquistion.

Quote: "I found myself in posession of space and unlimited bandwidth on a server, thanks to a family member who happens to own a web-hosting company."

Is there a possibility that Daddy (or whoever) may yank back the space and bandwidth once this thing really gets going? Is the owner of the web-hosting company aware of just how big this could get? In my time as a COBOL mainframe programmer, I've heard of people running side businesses off 3 am mainframe idle times. They'd typically get found out and
have their datasets erased, screwing not only them, but also all their
"clients." Now I know you are talking about helping hobbists and not
businesses, but hobbist spend money too, and also their time (which is money too). 

One of the reasons the major communities are more businesses then communities is that running and supporting a website (with real support personnel)
really does cost money even while also factoring in the profit motive.
However noble your intentions are regarding having a site that is not distorted by
the profit motive, I think you will still run into the money question. Your operations will still have to support themselves somehow, so the most you will be doing is having an operation that's distorted by money in a different way than the operations that currently exist. As you have said "They have to have that focus, or they would die." Once you have the information you need, you will need to make clear how your new site will support itself.  The more likely your site is to
survive, the more likely it is that it will attract the interest you need to make it worthwhile.

"I think it would be cool to have a shopping guide, based on value, price, and based on actual unbiased experiences."

 I think that would be an excellent ideal, if you could pull it off. The problem would be the cost of gathering all that data to get it in one place. I created an earlier thread (www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php) in which I floated the idea of creating a wiki-fyed database of all the 3D objects that were available, freebie or costie. I also had the idea that this user supported database (which is what I meant by wiki) could also be a collection point for requests for non-existent objects so that independent creators could see the demand for a given kind of object and meet the demand. I was presented with the fact that www.whatever3d.com/, mystic-nights.com/directory/index.php, www.sam3d.com/, and
poserpoorhouse.pbwiki.com/ were all doing this very thing. And for all I know, they may be passing search terms with zero results on to the vendors in some fashion. (Someone made a suggestion here that Rendo's zero-result search terms be handed over to the marketing dept).

The only thing I see that you want to do different is add independent customer satisfaction reviews to the database. More power to you if you can get people interested in doing that. (And make sure you have good moderators or good liability insurance. Ditto for the forums idea. [Did you see the TamelaJ thread?])

"Tutorials rock" Well sorted-out tutorials? Video tutorials? Excellent idea. Little liability in that that I can see. The problem that you are looking at a massive database reorganization. There are a lot of tutorials out there. I thought my wiki-db idea might eventually include things like tutorials as well.  But problem is the cost of having some actual people shuffling the data around.  Even charites pay good money to massage and shuffle data around.

"I think a tiered (or differentiated) gallery would be cool:" Have you looked at the complaints about how galleries are rated? (Here, there, or anywhere?) You would inherit all those complaints. Are you ready for that? Do you have the stomach for it? 

 "News?" Now here might be the best place to start. News put out by any organization that needs to make money nearly always has an ulterior motive. I can see where  reporting that is vendor-free and cross-community might be useful and welcome. But I'm too new here to know if such news sources already exist.  And again, liability insurance. (You do not have to be in the wrong to go wrong. There are such things as "slap" suits.)

I second, third and forth the mega-FAQS idea. Should one come into existence, I recommend that the HTML link to it be in 72 point type with flashing yellow and red colors.  Once Rendo's Poser FAQS is updated, I recommend that for it as well. This might also be a good place to start.

We recently had a discussion about the fact that some vendor's items get kicked out of the market place if they don't generate a certain amount of money in a certain amount of time.  Some of these items are really good things that simply need more time to find their markets. One unique service you could provide would be to provide a home for such "long-tail" items.

Well, that sounds overall like a negative post. I don't mean it to be, or to attack you or knock your enthusiasm for assisting 3D art.  Its just that Thomas Edison had it right when he said everything is "1% inspiration and 99% perspiration." Having wonderful ideas is one thing. Getting other people to fall in with you in executing them is a whole other ball of wax.

I wish you well, and may your tribe increase!
  

An answer to the original poster: I have long since wanted to see a site that has images of untextured renderings of various clothing items. Say I want to have an image in which a character wears a Victorian -era ballgown. What do I do? I check my own stuff first, then I see if there's anything free available ... in numerous places. Then I check various stores to see what would fit my needs. Now imagine there is an image gallery that you could browse that has categories and rendered images of untextured clothing items. Preferably one image per clothing set - front and back images both. I could browse the categories and easily spot what kind of items exist and where they are and what they cost if anything. This could serve as a recognition guide as well. I know this kind of image bank needs to be a communal task since nobody has enough time to render everything. Fixed resolution, fixed light-set and rendering settings (provided of course) would allow a consistent-looking collection of available items throughout the Poserdom.

Attached Link: http://www.whatever3d.com/

Why did I not know about that one?! Works very well! Trekkiegrrl's site has an unbelievable amount of great links, too. As an aside, I meant no criticism of Renderosity's free stuff. Dead links show up everywhere. People change hosting companies, people redo their sites, people just poof... and the last thing on their mind is what link is on what freestuff and where.

Hmm. I didn't know about that one either!  I have it bookmarked now though!  Thanks for the link :)

I don't know how current it is, I can't remember who started it even but it was someone that frequents the forums here because I do remember the thread about it, one of the few things I can remember if you listen to my Wife!!

Thank you! I've been wanting to see these for quite awhile. I'll answer them each in turn (though admittedly I'll have to type fast.. need to be getting ready for work soon).

Quote - Is there a possibility that Daddy (or whoever) may yank back the space and bandwidth once this thing really gets going? Is the owner of the web-hosting company aware of just how big this could get? In my time as a COBOL mainframe programmer, I've heard of people running side businesses off 3 am mainframe idle times. They'd typically get found out and
have their datasets erased, screwing not only them, but also all their
"clients." Now I know you are talking about helping hobbists and not
businesses, but hobbist spend money too, and also their time (which is money too). 

The site space is courtesy of my sister, who owns the company. She's been in business for five years now... considering the tons of work I've put in to help her get the servers up and running, I'm sure it won't get pulled anytime soon. If this thing begins to really grow, I already know of and have basic pricing structures for larger hosting services that are still within realistic budgets. If it gets really large, then I know of at least two datacenters that I can turn to locally, with full SLA and space to spare.

Quote - One of the reasons the major communities are more businesses then communities is that running and supporting a website (with real support personnel)
really does cost money even while also factoring in the profit motive.

I agree, perfectly.

Quote -
However noble your intentions are regarding having a site that is not distorted by
the profit motive, I think you will still run into the money question. Your operations will still have to support themselves somehow, so the most you will be doing is having an operation that's distorted by money in a different way than the operations that currently exist. As you have said "They have to have that focus, or they would die." Once you have the information you need, you will need to make clear how your new site will support itself.  The more likely your site is to
survive, the more likely it is that it will attract the interest you need to make it worthwhile.

I've been thinking about this as well. When I originally wrote the post, I had figured initially that I could set up discreet banner ads and use the revenue to support the site. If things get too big, I will have to find other means to support costs, but you are right in that those means must be communicated clearly to everyone. In my professional life, I state my biases up-front when asked to recommend something, and have found that such honesty is very refreshing to those who hear it. Not thaat I'm some sort of great orator, but that there are no hidden motives or angles.

"I think it would be cool to have a shopping guide, based on value, price, and based on actual unbiased experiences."

  > Quote - I think that would be an excellent ideal, if you could pull it off. The problem would be the cost of gathering all that data to get it in one place. I created an earlier thread (www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php) in which I floated the idea of creating a wiki-fyed database of all the 3D objects that were available, freebie or costie. I also had the idea that this user supported database (which is what I meant by wiki) could also be a collection point for requests for non-existent objects so that independent creators could see the demand for a given kind of object and meet the demand. I was presented with the fact that www.whatever3d.com/, mystic-nights.com/directory/index.php, www.sam3d.com/, and

poserpoorhouse.pbwiki.com/ were all doing this very thing. And for all I know, they may be passing search terms with zero results on to the vendors in some fashion. (Someone made a suggestion here that Rendo's zero-result search terms be handed over to the marketing dept).

I've not seen these offhand, but I will read them today when I get the chance. I am grateful to see that you've already gone to the trouble of researching much of it in public.

Quote - The only thing I see that you want to do different is add independent customer satisfaction reviews to the database. More power to you if you can get people interested in doing that. (And make sure you have good moderators or good liability insurance. Ditto for the forums idea. [Did you see the TamelaJ thread?])

I have set up and moderated a couple of forums before - and reviews are something I am very interested in. If someone gets offended enough to start spending time and money on a lawyer, then they would have to really go out of their way to find something to win from, and in most cases it would cost them far, far more than it would cost me. That said, I will be speaking with a lawyer long before I formulate and set up guidelines for reviews. I know a couple of them that owe me some time. :)

Quote - "Tutorials rock" Well sorted-out tutorials? Video tutorials? Excellent idea. Little liability in that that I can see. The problem that you are looking at a massive database reorganization. There are a lot of tutorials out there. I thought my wiki-db idea might eventually include things like tutorials as well.  But problem is the cost of having some actual people shuffling the data around.  Even charites pay good money to massage and shuffle data around.

Depends on how they're organized. I've found that 90% of the headache and heartaches in data management is the initial structure itself. Much of the data-shoveling can be accomplished by the submitter as well, if it's done with a clear and logical structure.

Quote - "I think a tiered (or differentiated) gallery would be cool:" Have you looked at the complaints about how galleries are rated? (Here, there, or anywhere?) You would inherit all those complaints. Are you ready for that? Do you have the stomach for it? 

Yes.

I've seen the Hot 20 (and remember well Legume's demonstration of how easily it could be shattered). I have even formulated alternate systems. This is something still being worked on (that is, how exactly to approach it).

  > Quote - "News?" Now here might be the best place to start. News put out by any organization that needs to make money nearly always has an ulterior motive. I can see where  reporting that is vendor-free and cross-community might be useful and welcome. But I'm too new here to know if such news sources already exist.  And again, liability insurance. (You do not have to be in the wrong to go wrong. There are such things as "slap" suits.)

Agreed. Cross-community news is almost non-existent. Then again, this hasn't hurt Tom's Hardware, HEXUS, or the plethora of other hardware news and review sites any. A good up-front policy goes a long way towards reducing the chance of any relevant lawsuits. :)

Quote - I second, third and forth the mega-FAQS idea. Should one come into existence, I recommend that the HTML link to it be in 72 point type with flashing yellow and red colors.  Once Rendo's Poser FAQS is updated, I recommend that for it as well. This might also be a good place to start.

Definitely! I've lost count long ago of how many people keep asking what even the basic terms mean, or newbies who get lost at the mere mention of bits and bobs that they cannot wrap their heads around without knowing the terminology (or even the slang).

Quote - We recently had a discussion about the fact that some vendor's items get kicked out of the market place if they don't generate a certain amount of money in a certain amount of time.  Some of these items are really good things that simply need more time to find their markets. One unique service you could provide would be to provide a home for such "long-tail" items.

You know? That wouldn't be a half-bad idea at all. As much as I detest the idea of running a store, the biggest part of that stems from two things, one being the fad/fashion portion, the other being the "flea market" aspect, where you have to dig through a mountain of, well, crap, to get to the quality stuff.

Quote - Well, that sounds overall like a negative post. I don't mean it to be, or to attack you or knock your enthusiasm for assisting 3D art.  Its just that Thomas Edison had it right when he said everything is "1% inspiration and 99% perspiration." Having wonderful ideas is one thing. Getting other people to fall in with you in executing them is a whole other ball of wax.

It isn't negative, it's reality.

I don't intend to do it alone, either. Once the site is near enough to completion on mission, goals, and framework, I intend to do some recruiting. Hopefully I can find some talented, level-headed, and eager volunteers (I'm not doing this for pay either, at least not until/unless it really takes off, then I start hiring from among those volunteers who helped out at the start).

Cheers!

Maybe it's a good thing to think multilanguage just from the start. There are more and more "foreigners", so english native speakers may become a minority group soon ;)

I for myself do not belive that "static monster servers" are the best way to go into the future. Pure P2P has some problems (information may be lost somewhere). But what about a combination? A ring of safe servers as "last resort" for information primarily held in a P2P-Network (no, not bitorrent, something more specialized to the problem). And perhaps a bit of "Seti at home" for Poserproblems (from searchengine up to render-ring).
Based on a solid concept this may start with just one single server.

Multilanguage is definitely a great idea. Especially when it comes to tutorials. I regularly see posts where a user tries to ask a question in broken English, which means that figuring out what the poster wants to know is more work than providing the answer once the question is clear.

As for organizing the data, some orthogonality wouldn't go amiss. Many of my freebies, for example, were hard to categorize right in the Renderosity system.

I also like the idea proposed by adp001 about a "ring of servers." Actually, it made me think of the way JOOST is set up: basically a P2P model with backup high capacity servers.

Most of all, I'd love a good search system, especially for freebies, FAQs and tutorials. 

JOOST is not so mutch different from other classic P2P networks. Primary goal is to distribute content at high bandwidth with low (or even no) static resources. Hardly centralized on "fresh" content.

The main focus here is - as you mentioned - on retrieval: seek and find information. The simplest form is finding one specific file to download. One of the more complex is: How can I learn to manage Posers lights?

Xlink may help building usefull search results (see www.w3.org/TR/xlink/).

The second focus is to remember any data inserted into the network. The oldest Message, the very first tip how to use Poser may help out someone who installs Poser the first time tomorrow. The very first geometry used in Poser may be of interest for somebody. But, where is it? Who did it?

I know, this is hard thinking for all the people hunting for new content every day :)

@Un_authorized: Just start the show :)

Start classic, but keep tomorrow in mind. All existing sites are with one problem in common: They aren't open-end by design and often driven with very low know-how.

Alright! Now you're cooking with fire!  From your first post it wasn't clear if we were dealing with Ted Mack's Amateur Hour or something more substantial.  Clearly, you are a professional, and an ambitious one at that. More power to you!

Further food for thought of the blue sky variety.

One of the problems I think the 3d art world has is the disparity between the objects available in the real world and the objects available in the 3D world. Now I don't think we will ever have a one to one correspondence (or even know if that would be worthwhile), but I do believe that widening the base of objects available to the artist would do a lot for originality of subject matter. I cringe every time I see a new "kit" of objects come out. I.e., a kit of a new figure with a few new clothes, a few new props,and a few new buildings. I cringe because I know that very shortly I will see hundreds of variations on this kit in the galleries until its done to death and even beyond.

Now while I also understand that some of this repetition is just people liking the subject matter, and that being a monomaniac fanboy or fangirl is part of many artists developement, I still think that some of the repetition is due to the restriction of the number of objects available at the base of the creation chain.  I believe this has to have an automatic way of causing artistists to focus of on a smaller set of themes and materials than they might have. Anything we can do to facilitate a wider base is to the good.

Now the good thing is that there are a lot of objects already out there. It is the communication problems that are causing the base of objects to seem smaller than it is. Therefore, one of the things I believe is needed the most is to leverage the objects that are already available by increasing the artist's ability to become aware of them. I now know that we already have databases of objects out there. But some of the posts I've seen in this thread tell me that even some of the veterans are not aware of some of them. And the fact that the databases give different results to the same queries tells me that the databases themselves are not as comprephensive as they might be. (one of them even seems to display a lot of TurboSquid stuff). 

So this still leaves us with objects out there that are still spread all over the 400 (soon to be 401) websites. Clearly, there is still a lot of work to be done on awareness-through-databases.

We need to (in no particular order):

1.) overcome the decentralization. The internet was specifically invented for the purpose of fostering redundancy over many nodes. That is what it does well. To overcome becoming another needle in a very large haystack, the proposed site should have a number of things that make it so good that it can not possibly be ignored. It occurs to me that Renderosity has already achieved that status. When I was a complete newbie to 3D art, Rendo was the first site that I became aware of by not even trying especially hard.
 
2.) Having gotten the eyeballs, there should be on one page a collected a list of the object databases already in existence. (yes, I've seen pages like that all over the place. And that isthe problem. All over the place. The eyeballs have to be there before any such page of databases can become really useful.

3.) participate in helping those existing databases get better. This may be a hard thing to do, and not just because it may be an effort for us. In some organizations there can be an attitude of "Not Invented Here" (NIH).  Nothing from outside - even free help - is considered worthwhile. And there are employees in some organizations who simply don't want outside amateurs making more work for them. One thought I had was that of keeping a spreadsheet of what I
encountered whenever I went on a prop hunt, and then sending that spreadsheet onto one or more of the databasers after I had found my prop.  I guess it would depend on the enthusiasm or agenda of the databaser. We should ask them if they would like any help of so amateur a nature.

4.) Increase and strengthen the feed back loop between the needers of objects and the makers of objects. I would say that we probably have a lot informal loops like that now. And I've speculated on whether the databasers are forwarding their zero-result search terms to any vendors for consideraton. But the more of a central clearing house we can make of those feedback loops, the more efficient the process will become, and the less likely it will be for a
creators time to be wasted. I have a suspicion that if vendors could really penenitrate the 401 sites and thereby really know what their customers wanted, we'd see alot more different kinds of objects created.

5.) Prevent the disappearance of objects because of their obscurity. This is part of the communication thing as well. Sometimes a perfectly good object disappears because its not listed on any database and is just on one of the 401 sites. But its also possible it is just an object that isn't used very often. I wonder if a percentage of the resources extremely popular objects provide might be used to keep some less popular objects in existence.  Maybe we could have a central place where they are kept off line until a request is received to load it up again.  Food for thought.

6.) not let databases get out of date. Once we have a database, or become aware of existing databases, we should continue to feed them. The more we put automatic and institutional means in place to accomplish this, the less likely a database will become merely historical.

A consideration for the future.

It seems to me that what we have so far been talking about - megaFAQS, Tutorials, news, forums, possibily storing freebies or long-tail items, galleries, shopping guides, and databases - adds up to just one thing: the mitosis of a new 3D community. Lets be frank and acknowledge that possibily up front. Its probably one of the reasons there will be some resistence. No one wants to see the efforts of their community get diluted by the formation of yet another community.  No one sets out to deliberately create a new community (unless, of course, theres some kind of massive muckup that really does sunder a  community).  One sets out to do something different, original, and useful - and "the routinization of charisma" works its magic over time.  This is not neccessarily a bad thing. Starting something new allows for a new DNA to be created for a new entity (I wonder if Runtime-DNA gots its name from that idea).

The idea of allowing more for non-English speakers is a perfect example of a new DNA. Sometimes estabished entities have too much of a capital investment in its founding ways of doing things that it takes a new entity to fill a void.

The only other thing I want to add in this regard is a caution. "The routinization of charisma" has its bad side as well as its good side. The badness tends to fall on the early members of the community who mistake a passion for a religion. They are the one's who are most hurt when a community begins its drift from being a community to being a business.  People who thought they had become members of an actual community, are later disappointed to find that they have instead become customers of a business. It happens all the time, and not just in the 3D art world. I would caution volunteers about how much of themselves they give to a new effort if their names are not on any of the ownership papers. But I am not casting aspersions on Un_authorized by mentioning this fact. I'm sure Un-authorized is in it for the exiliaration and challenge of doing something new and useful. Its just that there are people who who deliberately set themselves up to be exploited without realizing it. And that's a temptation that's hard to resist.

Now for a happier future thought: the baby boom generation is now in the process of heading for retirement. Yes, that might put the Social Sercurity System out of business and cause other problems, but there is at least one silver lining: a large population is going to suddenly find itself with a lot of free time on its hands.  I have no doubt that some that will spill over into 3D art in a big way.  A lot of you 3D veterans may suddenly find yourselves in demand as private tutors of 3D art.  And the kind of website Un_authorized wants to build may actually get a lot of wind in its sails without too much effort.

Immediate Recommendation:

Un_authorized, as soon as you have your site ready to go live, I suggest that your first page be a listing of all the databases available to date. And possiblly also a comprehensive list of all websites offering freebies. I know that there are a lot of pages out there that have this, but doing this may  give you a goodly number of eyeballs from the get go, and especially if the page gains a reputation for being comprehensive enough.   

Less Immediate Recommendation:

If you are going to allow more help for non-English speakers, then I suggest you liberally pepper your pages with buttons that link to BabelFish.  In fact, I suggest you find a way for the various speakers to identify what language they are using so that the linker to BabelFish will have that information when he or she goes there.  Its nice to allow more for non-English speakers, but you also have to watch out for being side-tracked by particular language.  Churches run into this problem all the time.

Having read all of this, I really like how it's all coming together.

There is one part that I think we can really do something useful with:

Quote - If you are going to allow more help for non-English speakers, then I suggest you liberally pepper your pages with buttons that link to BabelFish.  In fact, I suggest you find a way for the various speakers to identify what language they are using so that the linker to BabelFish will have that information when he or she goes there.  Its nice to allow more for non-English speakers, but you also have to watch out for being side-tracked by particular language.  Churches run into this problem all the time.

Actually, if I can get hold of volunteers (pref. one who is literate in French, one Japanese, and one Spanish -to start with- , The menus (and initial content, like news, etc) can be rigged for those particular languages right off the bat (w/ Forums, it's a simple matter of adding the appropriate language-specific fora). The Web Browser's User Agent string can determine which default menu shows up (with JavaScript handling it), and a simple drop-down menu can switch this to an available language.

Babelfish does very well for Western typset languages, but I found one that does (though not fully syntactically) live translation of Japanese-English as well.

As for help (you mentioned some folks being insular in nature)? I'll happily take on all the help I can get! :) Initially a listing of What's Out There is a best bet (otherwise I'd go completely insane spending every waking moment pressing to, say, write a web crawler that works reliably everywhere). Then we can begin to categorize and check availability and update statuses (is that even a word?).

Maybe over time the freebie makers can (hopefully) come straight to us and list 'em directly, obviating the need for a site crawler. Many sites and freebie makers (especially the Japanese ones) will rarely do this, but a working relationship with the sites which have perfectly working freebie listings (e.g. PoserClub.jp) would be rather beautiful.

Another thought - some freebies may not be appropriate for general consumption (Renderotica, RaunchyMinds), so more-or-less perpetual info on how to reach the sites that hosts those should suffice, allowing their individual site-based age controls help prevent bad reactions.

Cheers!

Quote -
Babelfish does very well for Western typset languages, but I found one that does (though not fully syntactically) live translation of Japanese-English as well.

Attention! Babelfish translations may work if the target language is english. From english to german - a desaster! No chance to get the point of a translated text :(

You may get a picture if you write a text, translate it to another language and let babelfish translate the foreign text back to english. Here is what babelfish did with your last posting:

Really if I can reach freiwilliger (pref., who, Japanese and Spanish are on French educated - to over also begin, can the menus (and output contents, like message, etc..) for those certain languages to the right away by the blow in order to be brought (with forums, it's a simple thing of adding the suitable languagespecific forums). The user central character string of the Netz-Browser's can determine, which resetting represents menu above (if Javascript it touches), and a simple drop down menu can switch this to an existing language. Babelfish does very well for western type set languages, but I appeared, (not completely syntactically) phase translation of Japanese-English in addition. Which concerns assistance (you mentioned some peoples, who are in nature island)? I'll take lucky on that to whole assistance, whom I can receive! :) First a listing of What's is a best bet out there (differently I'd completely spirit-ill expenditure goes to each waking up moment, which we say ourselves operated, in order to write a net track, the work reliably everywhere). Then we can begin to categorize and examine usefulness and update status (that it is even a word?). Possibly the advertising gift manufacturers (hopeful) preserve surplus time straight come to us and register 'em directly and prevent the necessity at a place of assembly track. Many places of assembly and advertising gift manufacturer (particularly the Japanese) do rarely this, but an employer-employee relationship to the places of assembly, those perfectly listing of work advertising gift have (e.g. PoserClub.jp) became rather beautiful its. Another thought - some werbegeschenke cannot be attached possibly for general consumption (Renderotica, RaunchyMinds), thus, more incessant info. up, as one the places of assembly, who regales, should be sufficient, reached and its individual place of assembly-created age permits to controls, help, to prevent bad reactions.

"Really if I can reach freiwilliger (pref., who, Japanese and Spanish are on French educated - to over also begin, can the menus (and output contents, like message, etc..)"

Point taken, ADP001.  By mentioning Babelfish, I was thinking about providing away for the site users to talk to each other across the language barrier.  I use babelfish to read galley comments left by non-English speakers, and it seemed to work to that extent. But Un_authorized has the better idea of mulit-language moderators and such.  At least non-English speakers can have their own forums and communicate with site staff.  You know, it has just struck me that this can be - to quote William Shattner - "BIG , really BIG."  I've just noted the effect the retirement of the baby boomers may have on the 3D art world. If non-English speakers are actively courted, this may open up India and possibly China.  Can you imagine a small fraction of those populations becoming interested in 3D art?

"Another thought - some freebies may not be appropriate for general consumption (Renderotica, RaunchyMinds), so more-or-less perpetual info on how to reach the sites that hosts those should suffice, allowing their individual site-based age controls help prevent bad reactions."

I am of the same mind with you on that., Un_authorized. Though I can see Acadia's point, if the proposed site goes international, we will definitely run into various cultural norms that will have to be respected if the site is to avoid being blocked altogether. Maybe you should lay the kneel of the site with provisions for filtering certain items according to the country the viewer is in.  I think one reason Renderosity has tightened up is that they want a broader audience of the Jon Gnagy www.tseymour.com/gnagy.html or Bob Ross variety. www.bobross.com/  Indeed, those two shows may be a good model for how to handle the newbies coming in. A lot of people still think of 3D  art as a higly technical, esoteric activity. I know I did until I finally bit the bullet and booted up Poser.  We are just on the cusp of that changing, thanks to the time and effort put into Poser by its developers.

Alright, I'll belly up to the bar and do more than talk.  If you think you can use it, I'm willing to contribute a Saturday to assembling an inital list of Poser sites that offer freebies, as well as any database websites I find.  Unless you specify otherwise, I'll do  copy and pastes of the urls to a simple MS text file.  (possibly I'm revealing my ignorance of web tech by offering this, since I don't know what a web crawler is or what it does, but I'm also offering human judgement for this process). I will not try to test the item links, as that would slow me down too much and can be automated.  The only condition  I make is that this list should also be shared with Rendo (if they want it), since we are using their forum to talk about this.  This is not an entirely altruistic offer on my part, because I can use this myself nothing else comes of it.

IMHO quality is needed, not quantity.

"Just lists" are available more than enough (401 - I really like this as a synonym for a superflous webservice )

Chat and several other forms of communication is allready there. Why start another service doing things the same way as other sites do? What is the difference if I have to use Babelfish to (miss)understand what people are talking about? It's just the same as with Rendo, DAZ and others. I see no reason to change my preferences.

There are Poser sites with special forums for non-english speakers. e-frontier has a german forum, for example. Not really successfull (my last visit:  4 weeks ago).

Giving people what they are unsuccessfully looking for at existing sites is what should be done first. Adding a forum or chat is a job for a couple of hours.
I think if it is clear what this new service will do for Poserland, there are a loot of helping hands to collect information in a way commercial services can't do (because of the cost).

And, yes! Why not working hand in hand with a major site like Rendo? I bed they would like it to get access to the best freeware list on the internet :)

3DSmacker: Keep it up and I'll take you up on it :)

adp001: I've begun on hunting for a web crawler/tracker script (which, yes, obeys robots.txt) that may well be useful for hunting down freebies across sites.

Nothing firm yet, though... still working on that aspect of it :)

Also, I'll likely be recruiting native German, Japanese, French, and Spanish writers pretty soon.

Quote - 3DSmacker: Keep it up and I'll take you up on it :)

adp001: I've begun on hunting for a web crawler/tracker script (which, yes, obeys robots.txt) that may well be useful for hunting down freebies across sites.

Nothing firm yet, though... still working on that aspect of it :)

Also, I'll likely be recruiting native German, Japanese, French, and Spanish writers pretty soon.

Usually I use HarvestMan for that. Do you know it? (http://harvestmanontheweb.com/)
It's open source and extendable to most special cases.

Because of the special requirements for a seach engine for this project I had a deeper look on a interesting open source package I found several month ago. It was to mutch for what I was after as I found it, but it seems it is the right tool for this project: DataparkSearch Engine 4.47 (http://www.dataparksearch.org/)

Please do not lose track of the one distinguishing thing that will make this project worthwhile: NO SELLING!!! We can't get along without markets, but any place that sells cannot be trusted to provice objective, unbiased, community information. This is one of the few eternal absolutes.

I was a reviewer at Amazon for years (Top 100 for about a year before I demanded that they pull my reviews and remove me from the list), and a "review" at Amazon is censored and distorted to sell product. The top "reviewer" at Amazon is a notorious (almost famous) hack who posts plagiarized dustjacket notes as reviews of the 20-40 books she supposely reads per day. Amazon refuses to do anything about it because all her reviews at four and five stars, be it schlock or Dickens.

The history of Poser communities is littered with places that slipped quietly down the slope from public service to "how can we make some money on this poopy." It's about as inevitable as checking your ethics at the door in law school. If a new community cannot survive without selling, then frankly, it's just another burger joint, and I don't need it.

M

"The history of Poser communities is littered with places that slipped quietly down the slope from public service to "how can we make some money on this poopy."  "

Yup.  Freebies yes, stores no. Delay the routinization of charisma as long as possible.

Thank you ADP001 for the crawler info. It looks like I'll be getting an education in them now that I have a better idea what they are.  As the Pennsylvania Dutch say "Too soon old, too late smart."

Here is a demo to find pokersites. Something similary can be done for Posersites...
( http://www.online-poker-explorer.com/ )

Ups! Wrong button pressed :)

The searchengine behind the Pokersite is DataparkSearch.

Quote - > Quote -

Usually I use HarvestMan for that. Do you know it? (http://harvestmanontheweb.com/)
It's open source and extendable to most special cases.

Funny you should mention them, I was looking at them and Larbin (http://freshmeat.net/projects/larbin/)yesterday afternoon as prime candidates. Any changes I make to either will of course be released/distributed GPL as well.

mickmca: I agree with you. My only concern is income if things grow. I think advertising can fulfill that need, but I do not want it to end up like Tom's Hardware and the like, where you have 80% of the page in ads, 20% in content. That would suck IMHO.

OTOH, a few discreet banners should suffice considering, and with enough volunteers (not just anyone, but volunteers with integrity, intelligence, and a knack for wit), the time invested by individual people can be kept somewhat sane.