First let me say that I think all competition is good...good for the end user and good for competing companies. Just like a sports team, sometimes the vetern becomes complacent...but the backup pushes the vetern to new heights.
The competition I'm speaking of is DAZ and SmithMicro.

If you look at the pre SM merger/take over of Poser, DAZ made a significant move with a new Carrara (wasn't it months before?). Now we have a new V4, some old Poser sites are now moving to new camps. Also, some old vets stopped visiting/posting here (won't name whom I'm thinking of...but to me it's obvious).
For an honest observation...explore this forum, now go explore DAZ's forum.

How do you feel? What do you think?

Hi DarkEdge

Come on over to Daz,  it's where the par-tay's at!

Cheers

Pat

I think as far as it all goes, everyone has their own agenda. Things change. Always have.

As long as a builder of 3D can open a modeler and build something in what was an empty screen and export it into another of these programs it isn't going to end my experience. Daz is doing their thing and making some changes(so what). I expect others will too before it's finished.

I just got a new Terms of Service notice from Daz. Except the terms or leave.

I do not know what has been going on over there at Daz, but I did read some stuff about hacking the site in the notice and reverse engineering of their programs. Has anyone else gotten this notice and do they see anything special?

I just got it. I think it's more the use of images by artists and submissions to the gallery. SOme folks were concerned that in the old TOS it sounded like Daz could take your images and tough luck to you.

SUBMITTED MATERIALS
For all of the User Materials that you post, you will retain all copyright control and ownership. DAZ 3D respects the rights of artists and will not grant any rights that extend beyond those already granted by the artist. DAZ 3D does not pre-screen User Materials that users provide or otherwise submit via the Site or Services; however, DAZ 3D may remove any posted or submitted User Materials from the Site or any Service for any reason without notice in its sole discretion. By posting or submitting your User Materials, you represent and warrant that you own or otherwise control all of the Intellectual Property Rights and other rights to your User Materials as described in these Terms of Service, including all the rights necessary for you to post or submit your User Materials. While you retain copyright control of submitted materials, submission provides to DAZ 3D a limited license to DAZ 3D to use submitted materials for marketing or promotional purposes, provided that reasonable efforts are taken by DAZ 3D to receive permission regarding such use from you.

Maybe the new terms will make them feel better? Daz markets some good stuff, but not everyone makes stuff just for Daz products. Daz doesn't sell anything for the G2 line that I'm aware of and although they are the most popular now it doesn't mean that they will continue to be. Tides come in and tides go out. The fish go where the water is. I think there characters are getting to high tech for the average beginner. Just my opinion but  most of the ideas have already been used.  Aiko  4?

Poser for the time being is pursuing the high end market and if they continue to make hobbyist programs also in the future then it could be a good thing. There is a lot of know how in the high end arena.  

I just occasionally need to go to a forum community where I can cuss and spit a bit - within reasonable limits -  when I rant about Poser-related stuff.

So far, Renderosity and DAZ3D forums allows me to do this without gagging me and chucking me into the disposal bin.

I'm cool with both locations.  No packing bags and moving for me.

As for merchants and other luminaries who up and leave - sure, when I find them again, I'd like to visit their on-line premises, see their stuff, maybe buy the things I like.

I think merchants left here when they tightened the nudity rules in the thumbnails. I think that's when BVH took down most of his store.

I think that Content Paradise is one big reason for the upset. It's really the new kid on the block and it's a big kid. Look at Daz. It has thumbnail rules; so does CP. You can buy Rendo products on Content Paradise and look at how a lot of Rendo's merchants made CP their mainstay market place exclusively and used to sell exclusively here on Rendo. Couple that with the TOS. The thumbnail thing is not the major problem really. Now figure Rendo has to pay Content Paradise a cut of everything sold there and that comes out of their cut. I look around at the different sites and a lot of the vendors from here have banners in other places now. They hunt the high volume markets and sell on a variety of them. The new exclusives they give to places like here at Rendo ,CP and Daz.
The smaller sellers get their vintage products because they get more for the "new" exclusives on the power seller sites without the penalties plus they get advertised in a high traffic area. But these merchants are very popular. Everybody wants them. They sell wherever they go; so it becomes a matter of where they will sell the most. 

I had a really bad experience with CP. They closed my account because my daughter used a coupon more than once, and I only found out she did it after my account was closed and I yelled around my house about it. All they had to do was ask me to give them the lousy $9.99 or whatever, and I would have, because she should not have done it. Instead they said "Your IP address and computer ID did it" This was the lovely Ratscloset person. I spend thousands, and I mean thousands of dollars on 3D content and the way they did it was nasty. I asked them how I could redownload my stuff and he said, "sorry, no access to disabled accounts". While I know sites have TOS, using a coupon is not the same as child porn and I can't lock up my PC. My 15-year-old thinks she can do whatever. Well, now Smith-Micro has just lost my business forever over something so stupid. Why they would want to lose a good customer over a $10.00 coupon and not try to work it out is beyond me.

I think most fifteen year olds think they can do whatever. Actually they can. It seems though washing the dishes isn't one of them.

Or cleaning their rooms, LOL!

I've never used a coupon twice before. Was it entered under a different account name or something. One computer can have several accounts on it. It doesn't mean the same person is using it. That really sounds harsh.

USE OF DAZ 3D MATERIALS
Any DAZ 3D Materials or Content made available only upon payment of a fee or execution of a separate agreement may only be viewed, downloaded and printed subject to your payment of such fee or execution of such separate agreement.

How does this effect the 'freebies'? Does it effect the the freebies that later go on sale?

Quote - I had a really bad experience with CP. They closed my account because my daughter used a coupon more than once, and I only found out she did it after my account was closed and I yelled around my house about it. All they had to do was ask me to give them the lousy $9.99 or whatever, and I would have, because she should not have done it. Instead they said "Your IP address and computer ID did it" This was the lovely Ratscloset person. I spend thousands, and I mean thousands of dollars on 3D content and the way they did it was nasty. I asked them how I could redownload my stuff and he said, "sorry, no access to disabled accounts". While I know sites have TOS, using a coupon is not the same as child porn and I can't lock up my PC. My 15-year-old thinks she can do whatever. Well, now Smith-Micro has just lost my business forever over something so stupid. Why they would want to lose a good customer over a $10.00 coupon and not try to work it out is beyond me.

It's that exact heavy handed kind of action by corporates that have me upset at all of them these days. Any reasonable person could have made that mistake even if an adult by accident. It's easy to have used a coupon and forget then use it again or someone in the household use one and not tell you thus you wind up using it again. All they had to do is reverse the sale or at worst make it so you couldn't purchase from the account while it's being handled. No need to close someone out point blank that way.

Hey, it would seem easier to just set things up so the user couldn't enter the same coupon twice. You know, bounce it like a bad check before it happens.

My daughter also has an account here, but she uses my charge card. I had to explain that to Rendo and there was no problem. They thought someone was hacking me. She only has a few pics in her gallery because she is "Too busy". She signed up at CP to get the freebie, but I don't know anything else. Ratscloset person just quoted the TOS and said I gave false information. They did not even ask me.  I buy things, I don't have to steal things, and if my daughter used the coupon more than once I would have reimbursed them for it. I was so angry I did not even bother to try to talk to them again. They can kiss my you know what and to heck with their new Poser, LOL!

Heck hath no fury like a woman scorned!

I'm glad there are people like you who don't put up with it. We don't spend our money at places like that just to get brushed aside or kicked in the shins by them.

That's a fact, Jack!

Drifterlee -

That kind of nastiness is what I encountered over on PoserPros (and subsequently they have not gotten ONE PENNY from me EVER again) before Daz took over running them. I know where you're coming from in other words. heheh.

I don't buy stuff at CP much. As far as I'm concerned, let SmithMicro and Daz headbutt themselves into a concussion in the pro-market arena. I don't care. I really don't. I will purchase at the locations that offer the products I desire. I buy from Rendo, from Daz, from RDNA, from 3DCommune. Really about the only place I flat refuse to spend so much as a penny at IS PoserPros. LOL

And I think BVH picked up and moved his store long before the Thumbnails Fiasco ocurred. I know he'd been planning to move for quite some time before he actually did, so I think the Thumbnails Fiasco probably contributed to it, but was not the definitive factour. He still sells. It's just that it's through his own site now, rather than any 'big' marketplace.

~ Seliah

Wow, thats bad luck with CP, seems you got screwed over by Poserworld once before also.
Both have been very good to me, as has all the Market Places... well almost . Do you remember a site called PoserStyle....  :(

Niles, I like your avatar...very cute.

I haven't had a problem at CP or here.
They only issue I have here is that they limit the file size for my products and I don't see any advertising for myself. CP is more professional in that regard, great upload system, good advertising.
I'm sorry you had problems, they will be problems sooner or later where ever you go, hopefully you get a good customer rep.
But that wasn't really what I posted about originally...

I'm seeing DAZ push the ball down the court and I haven't seen SmithMicro counter attack (yet). Whatever their counter-attack is going to be, it will need to be a fairly substantial (imo). And it will need to be substantial enough to create a good network buzz for the forums (will PoserPro save the day?). DAZ seems to be very active forum wise, but they are making progress with their products (V4, Carrara). I'm trying to gear my products towards the G2 figures, and I will continue to do so. I'm trying to attack the myth that male figures don't sell, so far the myth is killing me. lol!

Maybe it's time to submit to the dark side (V4) and create characters/armor/clothing for her. It's just that typically I try and steer an opposite course from what the masses do.

Must...resist...the dark...side.

dark side is GOOD in some situations

( cathartic )

@drifterlee - your tale is one of woe, it makes me want to do less business with CP.  I can't abide by the new law of business today.  There used to be a time when the customer was always right and businesses would bend over backwards to keep your patronage.  Nowadays it seems many businesses are just as quick to tell you to go to hell.

On a related note, I always buy things from their original source.  Most of what CP posts is from here or RDNA.   Two fine companies who have never wronged me.

@Darkedge - I have trouble with the whole Poser vs Daz issue.  First, I don't know how much of it is true and how much of it is user implied.  Everyone, everywhere wants to fight for their winning team, it seems.  To me it's like Coke vs Pepsi or GM vs Ford or Lakers vs Celtics or Christianity vs Judaism.  It's all warmongering at best.

Still, that said, I also have a deep distrust of corporate politics.  I've worked in too many offices to know the behind the scenes of bean-counting vs quality.  I fear for the immediate future of Poser.  I'm no Daz lover, but Daz has never done me wrong.  I've always been at least somewhat satisfied with their products (minus Daz Studio - but that's a personal preference more than a hard comparison).

I would really like to see these two entities get along.  I think a cooperative attitude would do the end users much more justice.  I like the idea of the next generation of Daz figures working seemlessly in the next version of Poser.  I want Carrara and Bryce to have seemless interfaces with Poser.  I need these corporations to get along.  It is important to me on a personal level (hobbywise) and on a professional level.

As far as the Male vs Female characters, stick with doing Male characters.  There is a growing number of women in this community and there will always be men and women interested in something beyond the next sexy female fantasy pin-up.  My complaint with Male figs has been a glaring lack of detailed clothing.  The women's clothes are generations ahead of the males.  I am trying to put together an animation with many male and female characters, and I continually am on the look out for natural quality male clothing.  I'm using almost all the male figs, btw for variety's sake. 

(Put Kelvin and M3 in a scene together with some of the best texture packs around and it's like some virtual cinema magic!)

I see Poser using DAZ figures all of the time, but I rarely see DAZ using Poser figures...to me, it seems the gulf between the two is growing wider.

I think that will ultimately be bad for both. But if one side is continually moving forward and the other isn't (so far).....??? animal kindom survival of the fittest.

Drifterlee, did you talk with a peon when you tried to clear up the issue or did you try to get in contact with the management?  Usually peons are poorly paid, don't see the larger picture, and couldn't care less even if they were better paid and/or saw the big picture.  If you'd still like to do business with them if things were cleared up, try to complain to someone important and that person should probably fix things for you.  Just be nice to him and let him know about the situation.  Bad CS is often corrected by talking to someone who knows the value of good CS and having a reputation worth keeping, instead of one that would make someone such as me not buy from that company.

I don't see a need for Poser pro.  We have Daz Studio/Carrara and Quidam. 

I haven't seen SmithMicro counter attack either. That would be exciting to see. -^ Over the past year, I spent more at other sites because DAZ is fixated on things I don't care about. But they have had some seriously cool fantasy animal freebies lately, some cool scif, and great software sales. Renderosity is home base for me. It's a great place to get just about everything and an answer to all your questions too. It's user driven, so what floats to the top here, is will the of users. There are many venders here I dearly love. ^^ Content Paradise meanwhile, has some seriously kickass stuff like the Great Rulers for G2 males, PhilC stuff, and the weekly freebies like animals. They are making things you don't get ANYWHERE else. I do love Koji and Miki. ^^ RDNA is the place to go for kickass cool Aiko, Hiro, M3, and Hair stuff. Lady Little Fox is one of my faovrites over there. Since RDNA also sells at CP, I usually do One-stop-shopping at Content Paradise. PoserPros was the place to go for cool stuff like Royloo's outfits, character textures, and Hiro stuff. But now it's gone. sob 3DCommune is the place I go for some sweet female hairs and Vue content.

Quote - I don't see a need for Poser pro.  We have Daz Studio/Carrara and Quidam. 

Speaking of DAZ studio... does anyone know how to export figure OBJ's out of it, and not end up with incompatible facet structure? I think I tried every possible combination of settings, and ended up with a mess. sniffle

As for changes, I like changes in general. Keeps things interesting.

Hmm.... I don't know much about DS, but I bet you could use the FaceShop tutorlals as a guide for how to export from DS and not mess up the facets.

Pat, have you tried rigging in Carrara yet, either an original or conforming clothing/armor?
That is where I would see the need for PoserPro is the rigging creative aspect.

BB, I would love to see SmithMicro counter attack. Like I say though, it's going to have to have some uumph behind it to catch up or lead. Maybe they could ask some of us creators???

DAZ studio is nothing but a render machine, can't do much else with it (imo).

"Speaking of DAZ studio... does anyone know how to export figure OBJ's out of it, and not end up with incompatible facet structure? I think I tried every possible combination of settings, and ended up with a mess. sniffle"

What do you mean by incompatible facet structure? Incompatible to what?

I haven't tried rigging in Carrara yet.  I'm writing down all the values of my Lightwave rigs before I try it.  BTW I think SmithMicro has a long way to catch up.

My take is that I don't care.  I want improvements in Poser and in Daz|Studio.  I want better customer support and better content.  The war here is illusionary.  But the problem is that Daz still must be dragged around by the nostrils by Poser - that is where their main provider of income still resides.  D|S can't replace Poser at this stage and if the wind changes significantly with SM, then Daz may find itself playing catchup (to the catchup already in progress - FaceRoom, Shader nodes, animation layers, etc.). The worst outcome would be two competing content formats (at least for a while).

What I dream about: Poser and Daz joining forces (it may be Poser's owner purchasing Daz or vice versa).  This would combine the best of both worlds and stop the contention.  This is better than nightmares about flesh-eating zombies, I'll tell ya. ;)

Competition is a good thing. -^ So I'm wondering, "What could Smith Miro do that would worry DAZ?" Hmm.... Oh, I know! How about a 3rd generation figure line? Think, the Japanese Modelers (who brought us Miki, Koji, James, and Near Me) team up with Apollo's maker, Anton. I think that would give DAZ some heartburn. teehee -^ bB

Oh, so you like to see two groups pitted against each other in the life-and-death struggle while selling antacids. :)

There have been other movements in the 3D world, folks - like that Microsoft taking over Caligari and their Truespace 3D application. 

Let's see how this pans out for 3D software users.

I'm not sure that what your talking about wouldn't be a monopoly.

ETA: My model here concerning Poser and Daz is analogous to this:

You have Poser which provides the specs for building the weaponry.  Daz is basically using the same specs to build their weaponry.  Ah, but Poser has a few secret weapons in their arsenal which they keep away from Daz spies.  Daz then decides to build their own weapons based loosely on Poser's via reverse engineering (quite literally, might I add).  But the problem is that Daz's weapons are still quite well understood by Poser since Poser provides the specs.

There are more complexities (Daz consuming Hexagon, Carrara, etc.) but the point is that unless Daz complete severes its dependence upon Poser specs, they will not be at liberty to divulge themselves completely of them.  Daz is a satellite of Poser that keeps battling for its freedom but cannot gain it while remaining dependent upon its resources.  Wakarimasu ka?

Quote - I'm not sure that what your talking about wouldn't be a monopoly.

Considering the jaded past, a monopoly may be the remedy sought after in opposition to more splintering and growing insignifcance.  While Daz has stood firm, Poser has changed hands several times due to profit margins.  Not to go too far in analogy, what I see of the AmigaOS 4 is a marginal OS looking for a niche in a stuffed-to-the-gills market.  You don't want that. Now, the market isn't like this for Poser but it is becoming marginalized by more complex solutions provided by larger 3D providers.  Then you have all of the wannabees (Sims, iClone, et al) marching up the corridor without much resistance.  When assailed, does one not seek partnerships?

Sims and iClone are not what I would consider art quality image producers. Maybe though Poser needs to consider making low poly packages and adding features like those programs in different program packages with the crz system. Same as Daz, but look at the copywrites surrounding SIMs and iClone content. I understand that you can make a texture for a SIM charater, but you can't sell it.

It isn't the actuality that destroys, it is the perception.  If enough people perceive that something is more useful than the other thing then the other thing fades away.  Let's face it.  At the time, the AmigaOS was the best OS available (there was no other 32-bit OS except for some complicated, Geekish Unixish OSs).  How did they falter when they had M$ and Apple by the balls?  They didn't change the perception of the potential users out there before the competition pounced.  Wars are won by strategy not by quality of weaponry (for the most part).

Poser keeps earning the reputation as a 'toy' and by that it will go the way of all toys.  As time marches on, the competition is winning the battles even if by subterfuge.  I don't question Poser's viability.  I question its ability to stand alone in the face of battle.  With its closest allie pitted against it (Daz), it doesnt' increase the odds.

*Think, the Japanese Modelers (who brought us Miki, Koji, James, and Near Me) team up with Apollo's maker, Anton. I think that would give DAZ some heartburn. teehee -^

No problem,  other figure makers team up with DAZ and descend upon Smithmicro like the Knights Templars at Bannockburn.  ( and at a lot lower poly count. lol.)

Most of the time the things we worry about the most never happen. I think the biggest thing hobbyist worry about is Poser not building for them anymore and setting it's sights on the proffesional market where they can get more money per sale and sell less volume and probably deal with a lot fewer complaints. Somebody has to fill the hobby market though. All the software is getting cheaper all the time even the high end apps. The technology gets old and newest better comes along. What to do with yesterday or yesteryears programs then?

Really Poser is getting more and more technical. How long before a beginner is going to look someplace else for a program to start with because Poser is just too complicated?  

The Knights Templar were framed, I tell ya! :)

Complication isn't the issue.  It's all perception.  Those who use the pro software continue to piss on Poser (sorry, but that's an apt euphemism) while those who aspire to it keep finding inroads where Poser fails (games and distractions - a BIG market - did I say BIG enough).  Poser fills a niche that keeps dwindling.  The pros want self-made, self-rigged characters. The other end of the spectrum wants barbie dolls for easy user assembly and automation.  Poser can't straddle the middle ground forever.

Again, I'm not trying to be the antagonist here.  Poser is great for ready-made, highly flexible, quality content.  But it seems to be failing in drawing in the support deserved.  You'd think that with the increases in cpu speed, memory access, permanent storage that Poser would be flourishing more than expected.  So why the floundering sale of e-frontier to Smith Micro?  Yahoo had enough bollocks to say "Eh, no thanks" to M$ (wow).  That can only come from confidence and success.  One doesn't sell ones children unless abysmally desparate.

The technical advancements applied to Poser have been rather good.  How many other softwares have a material system as flexible as Poser (thanks to Pixels 3D)?  What is the problem?  Remember my statement about AmigaOS.  It isn't about reality here.  One just has to one-upsmanship your opponent in the right way at the crucial moment to destroy them.  M$ just chugged along and put out (crappy-old) Windows 95 to counter the trends.  They leveraged every under-handed technique to win over the users ("everyone uses MS-DOS/Windows", "we're better than our competition", "we have more hardware support", blah, blah).  Billy is a world-class salesman - he could sell your mother cow patties for $500 a piece. :D

dogor is right.

A friend of mine who decided she wanted to get into this hobby decided to pick up Daz Studio instead of Poser after I let her try both out on my system.  Where I've been using Poser for an embarrassing amount of years and have had the opportunity to learn many of it nuances, she did not have that luxory.

Daz Studio ended up being a lot easier for her to pick up and learn (but to me it's like learning Japanese!)

I like the variety of features in Poser.  I love that a hobbiest program is actually capable of so many complex things (dynamics, wind force, material nodes, etc), but I can see it being intimidating for a new user.

Alas, I agree with kuroyume0161.  I would like to see Daz and Poser as allies, I think as long as they work well with each other the community will be stronger.  If they ever go to completely incompatable formats, one of them will loose my business, obviously.  A company might feel confident in making such a move, thinking consumers might side with them, but in the end, do I stick with something that will progress, yet abandon my years of purchased content, or do I stick with that which is stagnant but honors my investment?

*...Dork Caine is the name and I served on the Poserville train
   'Til DAZ's cavalry came and tore up the tracks again
   In the winter of 'Poser 5, we were hungry, just barely alive
   By May the tenth, CP had fell, it's a time I remember oh so well

   The night they drove Old Poser down and the bells were ringing
   The night they drove Old Poser down and the people were singin', they went  
   La-la-la  la-la-la,  la-la-la  la-la-la,  la-la-la-la...

Sorry,  I'm being an antagonist.  Poser 5 should have been a rewrite of the code.

All kidding aside folks,  there are compatiblity issues between Daz Studio 1.8 and Poser 5 and above.  I don't like it.  I feel there should be crossplatform integration between the two.  Just like the high end apps have collada and fbx.  That being said I'm going to have to develope a Daz studio version and Poser 5 and above version of all my figures.  I can really see where this would discourage a lot of vendors.

Daz is more compatible than Poser. For one try to load a G2 figure into Daz Studio. You see more and more of Poser's origanal content only works in Poser. Daz figures on the other hand are made to work in both. Daz builds and thus supports Poser progress. When has Poser ever really supported Daz Studio? My observation anyways.

In my opinion they need to scrap the smoothing system in Poser and get more compatible with everything people are exporting right out of the high end apps. Improve the Setup Room. Improve the Material Room. I don't like splitting the verts.

Also when Daz wants me to locate a file the maker was nice enough to make it tell the directory it's in. Poser just says find this file. There is a lot of room for Poser improvement. Daz Studio is only at 1.8 or so and they can't help it Poser only wants their content to work in their platform.

Hi Dogor

I'm not a fanboy of any software.  I just like stiring the pot every now and then.  I do have a question about Daz Studio, though.  How do you turn on IK?

Cheers

Pat

The same way you turn it off. ;)