Every year or os now poser seems to change or get bought by some other company.
Poser as evolved somewhat but basically remains the same...

Since version 5 it has acquired more features, but to me some of those are completely worthless,

I was wondering what would make a real difference in upcoming versions of poser, something that would make it a must buy!

The render engine has practically not much evolve since the intro of firefly which is sad. Poser could also have the following in my humble opinion.

A real cartoon render engine. the one it has is just awfull.

Poser should be modular with plugins like 3ds max or lightwave, that way you buy just what you need and it does not become an overbloated app.

Poser should have its own inside graphic editor, meaning that when you have to change a texture in the material room i would be able to do so without going to a grpahic editor program, I would see the change in real time just like in zbrush when i paint on the figure. It would be a tremendous time saver....

Get rid of some of those poser room. somehow i find most of the poser room useless...i only use the pose and material room.

The other rooms are not worth my time because they are very limited in what they do and there is way to much tweaking involved in those rooms to get any proper results for my liking...

I think that poser shoudl be rewritten from the ground up to make it more compatible to other 3d apps so that it caan be taken seriously...

Imagine a new version of poser wherein you can add plugins from lightwave or 3dsmax or maya...

The companies are trying to do that now  but with each new release the chnages are so minimal that i don't even think that it is worth the effort to invest in upgrading because the worlkflow speed is not really improved...

If poser would speed my workflow i would gladly welcome any new versions...that is why 3ds max, lightwave and maya suceed, the base program is made to allow add-ons to speed up or ease work...

I think that is the reason why poser can eveolve so little at a time, the base programming that was used for poser is very limiting and hard to implement features that is why i am lamenting that poser should be rewritten from the ground up...

The figures are evolving faster than poser which is good...

Poser as so much to offer but the companies who have had the ability to make poser something special have failed to make this app a truly trail blazing app...

....

The other rooms -- set up, hair, and dynamic cloth -- are pretty wonderous when you consider what they bring to the table, but they've not been properly developed, which is a shame. Only a few folks truly understand what can be done with dynamics (and I dont count myself amoung them).

On the plus side:

Their base figures are, in some respects, far superior to the MilFolk in that they have much more capability for change... and with DAZ now moving to some kind of hybrid magnet/INJ morphing system, it seems to be that folks who like to keep it simple might want to revisit those base Poser figures again. Yes, out of the box, they aint as pretty as Vicki, but that's part of the plus side in that you have a blank slate to work with, not a pre-manufacrtured supermodel that requires serious work to be anything but a pre-manufactured supermodel. And on the guy side, you dont have to deal with a four-year-old mesh with bowling ball shoulders.

Poser has a lot of potential, to be sure. Let's hope that the new owners recognize that.

Hmm... ok, I wasn' going to respond to this, but I think I will... several points here that caught my eye, and I'll try to take them one by one:

Quote - Every year or os now poser seems to change or get bought by some other company.
Poser as evolved somewhat but basically remains the same...

Since version 5 it has acquired more features, but to me some of those are completely worthless,

So because, to you they are worthless, there's no point in them being there? Other users get a great deal out of the various options available, and a number of the additions have been in response to user demand,

Quote - Get rid of some of those poser room. somehow i find most of the poser room useless...i only use the pose and material room.

Again, you only use those rooms... this doesn't mean that those are the only rooms people use. Speaking for myself, I often use the cloth and hair rooms. I know others (especially those who create content) use the setup room. The Face Room also has its uses. About the only room I would argue is loseable would be the content tab, since almost everyone has some ofrm of internet browser on their computer, and it's not so hard to manage this externally.

Quote - The other rooms are not worth my time because they are very limited in what they do and there is way to much tweaking involved in those rooms to get any proper results for my liking...

Hang on, you're saying two contradictory things here: are the rooms too limited in their abilities, or does it take to long to tweak the many different settings to get what you want? If it were limited, then there would be only a few variables, and the possible output would have litle variation. I think the problem with both hair and cloth rooms is that the different settings haven't been properly documented - the gravity setting in the hair room, for example, has no units by it, and there's no way of knowing without experimentation exactly how big an adjustment you should make to it. Far from being limited in their use, i think they suffer from being too open, without enough documentation to let us know how to use them effectively.

Quote - Imagine a new version of poser wherein you can add plugins from lightwave or 3dsmax or maya...

That's never going to happen, not because of Poser's limited infrastructure or the coding used within it, but simply because most plugins and so on are proprietary. You can't put max plugins into maya, or C4D plugins into Lightwave... so why should you expect to be able to put any of them into Poser?

Quote - Poser should be modular with plugins like 3ds max or lightwave, that way you buy just what you need and it does not become an overbloated app [...] The companies are trying to do that now  but with each new release the chnages are so minimal that i don't even think that it is worth the effort to invest in upgrading because the worlkflow speed is not really improved...

Minimal? Since Poser 5, we've had the introduction of the face room, cloth room, hair room, material room, python, ambient occlusion, animation layers, an inbuilt talk designer... and those are just the improvements I can think of off the top of my head. With plugins avaialble out there, written in python, you can now share one figure's wardrobe with another, create particle effects, render multipasses for greater control over the finished result, use rigid body dynamics solutions, create clothes within Poser... surely this is exactly what you were referring to when you asked for a 'modular' design to Poser?

Quote - If poser would speed my workflow i would gladly welcome any new versions...that is why 3ds max, lightwave and maya suceed, the base program is made to allow add-ons to speed up or ease work...

You're comparing apples with oranges here, and have done at several times through this post. Max, Maya, Lightwave are all modellers - a completely different genre of program to what Poser offers. It's like complaining that your calculator is ok at what it does, but you can't play Zelda on it, like you can on a Nintendo. Of course you can't - just because they're both computers doesn't mean they are designed to do the same things.

Quote - I think that is the reason why poser can eveolve so little at a time, the base programming that was used for poser is very limiting and hard to implement features that is why i am lamenting that poser should be rewritten from the ground up...

Do you keep track of other software releases, such as Max, Maya and so on? Whilst I don't use any of those (I prefer C4D, myself), I regularly get 3D World magazine, and read the reviews. Often, these packages have reviews stating that there isnt' enough forward motion between full-point releases, or that certain aspects of the program are beginning to look dated or broken. Once the core of a package is written, it's very, VERY rare that it gets rewritten from the ground up. In fact, I cant' think of any packages that have had such a restructuring (if anyone can help me out here, I'll gladly accept the point).

Apologies for the long-winded reply, and I hope I've not put anyone's nose out of joint... but I just felt the need to respond.

JonTheCelt

If you're so unhappy with Poser, then change to D|S or buy yourself a copy of a real 3d app like MAX and learn how to rig with weightmapps.

There ARE lots of things "wrong" with Poser that I'd love to see reworked, but Poser 7 is better than ever and with the addition of the seminal MorphBrush technology it's pose engine can already see eye-to eye- with anything you can do with weightmapping.

You just have to know what you're doing and don't use poorly rigged meshes like V4 or the G2 series as a benchmark.

I don't want a "re-write" from the "ground up" if this means that all previous content will become obsolete.
Get rid of bugs, improve functionality, get it more stable, I'm all for that.
And yeah, a FAST but still high quality render engine wouldn't hurt.

But NO to a shiny new "modernistic" GUI like almost every other 3d app on the planet has.
If you want Poser too look like MAX, then USE MAX.
And especially a big NO to weightmapping.
MAX and MAYA and others already can do this perfectlywell  so use THEM if you must

As for the rooms, no, I don't use the hair room or face room often.
But others do.
And I use the SetUp room almost daily because I almost never use premade content "as is".
And I use the cloth room for dynamic clothing, for modelling (!), and to add morphs to conforming clothes.

Finally, Poser will NEVER be taken "seriously" by professionals.
Forget that little dream of getting the big boys to "respect" you as a Poser user !
Studios want their own exclusive content, not paying royalties for some lame "EULA protected" DAZ or Poser characters any Dick, Jane and Harry can get for $1.99.
And professional 3d artists are expected to be able to create any type of content by themselves from scratch, not just move virtual Barbie dolls around with the  help of premade pose sets.

And it's not so much that Poser as a tool is looked down at, it's the people that predominantly use it.
So, unless you tell all those hobbyist Poser users to please take a hike so that Poser can get a better "image", all those rooting for a "more professional" Poser is a waste of time.

Two examples of how good the Poser rigging actually IS:
XAA's improved Posette. Perfect basic rigging with a few "standard type" ERC controlled fix morphs.

SP3/V3RR hybrid. Poor basic DAZ rigging, but all problems were easily fixed with the Poser 7 MorphBrush.
No "bowling ball" shoulders, no "exploding" buttocks, no "dents".

I have Poser 5 and I've enjoyed the face room in it.  Making your own faces is rewarding.  True (in Poser 5), placing a full face and profile image in and duplicating it falls somewhat flat (not enough points to do the job and the picture is too small).  Now, in the latest version of Poser (7),  I would really like someone to make a face morph and display it next to the default model.  Does Poser 7 have more points for adjustments?

One thing, I've experienced in both DAZ and Poser (5) is the duplication of dials (eg upper lip up, upper lip down-(DAZ).  I found no difference between the two dials except which way you rotate the dials-Poser (5) have similiar duplication.  Have these been cleaned up in Poser 7?

The body morphs in P5.  Some are over done and some are under done or not at all. Has that changed in Poser 7?

It's great that rigging has improved P5 vs P7-- I think rigging is for the gifted Poser users and I truely admire them--I look at the stuff and I feel somewhat ill in my stomach (similiar to opening an advanced book on 4th year college mathematics-beyond "simple" calculus).   Jan

As for Figures that came in any version of Poser, you always have a choice not to use them. I personally have not used Posette since P6. You also have 3rd party figures you can use like Vicky, Aiko, Miki, Maya Doll, Him, Her, Apollo, and so on and so forth.

Poser is now much better than when I first started using it from Poser 4 (demo).
You also have a choice now which app to use: Poser or Daz Studio.

There are also other apps you can use which have better render engines, I use 90% of the time Carrara or Vue to render, since intro of the collada beta for Max I even have tried rendering in Max. With Daz Studio you can use that or Bryce (owned since Bryce 4).

You have choices!

A lot of people are misreading my intent here.

I am that kind of guy that gets into a comfortable routine and sticks with it.

That is why i said that some of the poser rooms do not work for me because of the way they are implemented.

because of the dial system it makes it real hard to get what you want because it is a hit and miss approach all the time unless you spend countless hourss within those rooms and experiment you won't get much. I have tried to make some hair and i really prefer to use hair done by artists here. That is why i am saying that i do not need this rooma and that it should be gone.

Someone told " well if you are not using it that does not mean that others are not using it"

...well then, how many other users have tried it and gave up?

No i do not want to use 3ds max or maya...i do not want to mortgage a house to use those programs...i do not need them really.

BUT i see tons of plugins that were done for those high end programs that would be time saving to people.

I remember seeing a cloth plugin with 3ds max that work wonders and was so simple to use that it makes me cry to not see this in poser..do not tell me that poser people would not benefit form a good cloth program for clothes within the program...

If the programming to do these kind of things would be to hard to do in the present poser state, that is why i am stating that the basecode of poser should be redone to incorporate plugins form other 3d apps. You could buy what you need after buying the base program.

Illustrate is an example of an awesome plugin for max that really lets you toon your renders instead of the horrible bypass that is in poser right now...if you look at the carrara toon engine it is the same..so that was not really innovative from the poser people.

A major reason why poser is not in the big leagues per say is for the reasons i mentionned above.

It is a super easy program to use but it lacks all the good tools that would make poser people life way easy...that is why most people in 3d business do not care about it. If that was to change then maybe people would reconsider their opinion about poser.

I love poser do not get me wrong..but personnally i do not think that the app has evolved enough in its last few iterations. There is no big time feature that would make me go WOW...

For gods sake  there is not even no batch rendering (far as i know) a feature that has been in sister program Carrara for a long time...

Even the upcoming version Poser Pro promotes new features while looking at them they are just attempts to make poser work with other apps.

The functionality needs to be in Poser! Not outside thru some other plugins that opens up another app..if the owner want to write plugins they should write it to be in poser itself.

A lot fo people will disagree with what i just wrote...but that is the way i see it at this time, i do hope it gets better..

Wow - have a goat people....  The guy simply expressed HIS opinion on some rooms.  Said in the first few sentences:

"Poser should be modular with plugins like 3ds max or lightwave, that way you buy just what you need and it does not become an overbloated app."

Then went on to discuss which features he uses and he doesn't.  Didn't say "GET RID OF ALL THE ONES I HATE"

It's hard to even read here lately.  What used to be a nice friendly helpful community , now every time I open a thread I see people who are hunting forums for a reason to argue with someone and jump all over them.  Instead of trying to see points you agree on, lets try to find some way to argue.  Debate is fun, but you don't have to be rude about it.

After all that, I do very much agree with the OP.
I also agree a few points down that I'd rather not see it reworked from the ground up because if I know programs, it will break everything if they do that.
Rather I would see significant changes implemented.

First and foremost the render engine.  It's absurd.
Secondly I agree on changing the materials room to where I can actually edit the textures while inside the program.  Layers would also be very very helpful. On the other hand there are already powerful apps that can do this, and perhaps the price tag on those reflects these programming implements.  If so - than I will thankfully - continue to switch to my image editing application while counting my $600.00 saved doing so.
Convenience usually comes with a hefty price tag.

because of the dial system it makes it real hard to get what you want because it is a hit and miss approach all the time unless you spend countless hourss within those rooms and experiment you won't get much. I have tried to make some hair and i really prefer to use hair done by artists here. That is why i am saying that i do not need this rooma and that it should be gone.

If you look at the dials, you have not only the dials but their numeric equivalents, which does make it easier in P7 to move things around.

Insofar as the hair room, if you dont use it, fine. But for those of us who enjoy playing with this program, the hair room can be an interesting challenge -- which, truth be told, is what this proggie is all about, not some Chinese take-out menu of preset bits and pieces. If that's what you want, there are other programs with those limitations.

All of this, of course, is based on "who uses Poser" and "why?". Most people are hobbyists of varying degree of talent and involvement in the program. Some want to just take item A, character B, pose set C, and light set D and then hit the render button -- and they'll be perfectly satisfied with the results. Others, like myself, enjoy learning about the dynamic cloth and hair possibilities, even though I'm far from proficient at them. Others like the animation capabilities.

Bottom line: we all bring something unique to the table. Leave it at that, huh? If you seriously want the high-end plug-ins, this may not be the program for you. And I say that not as chastisement, but simple truth. The nature of the market for both Poser and DS just isnt as high-end professional as any of us might like, nor is that likely to change. It doesnt mean this is a toy program, although in many respects it is -- it's like comfort food when you dont want the bother of cooking a lavish meal.

Quote - I was wondering what would make a real difference in upcoming versions of poser, something that would make it a must buy!

Not knowing your personal needs and wants, I wouldn't know what reasons anyone could give you.

Quote - The render engine has practically not much evolve since the intro of firefly which is sad. Poser could also have the following in my humble opinion.

the render engine itself is not in the hands of cp/ef/sm, it is made by another company and Poser must be written to interface with it. Advances in the FF engine mean reworking the interface and the render ui controls that the user sees. These changes are happening. there are differences between the settings you see in p6 and p7 (i don't remember but i think there are even differences between p5 and p6)

Quote - Poser should be modular with plugins like 3ds max or lightwave, that way you buy just what you need and it does not become an overbloated app.

I hear rumors that plugin capabilities (beyond python scripts) are a future goal.

Quote - Poser should have its own inside graphic editor, meaning that when you have to change a texture in the material room i would be able to do so without going to a grpahic editor program, I would see the change in real time just like in zbrush when i paint on the figure. It would be a tremendous time saver....

sounds expensive.

Quote - Get rid of some of those poser room. somehow i find most of the poser room useless...i only use the pose and material room.

any suggestions on how to change the interface without loosing capabilities currently available?

Quote - I think that poser shoudl be rewritten from the ground up to make it more compatible to other 3d apps so that it caan be taken seriously...

Poser is being rewritten incrementally throughout the last few versions.

Quote - The companies are trying to do that now  but with each new release the chnages are so minimal that i don't even think that it is worth the effort to invest in upgrading because the worlkflow speed is not really improved... If poser would speed my workflow i would gladly welcome any new versions...that is why 3ds max, lightwave and maya suceed, the base program is made to allow add-ons to speed up or ease work...

Personally i have found that being able to undock the library and expand it out to multiple columns greatly increased my workflow. also collections tab in library, changes to the hierarchy dialog, area renders, being able to create cameras, and making and using MC6 files.

Quote - I think that is the reason why poser can eveolve so little at a time, the base programming that was used for poser is very limiting and hard to implement features that is why i am lamenting that poser should be rewritten from the ground up...

well i guess it is a good thing it is being rewritten then.
 

corleone1
I guess just give up at this point.
gg

Quote - Poser should have its own inside graphics editor  ...

Now THAT is easy to accomplish. Just like Poser doesn't have its own Python editor, why not put an option "Set graphics editor" in Preferences, and launch your graphics editor of choice from the Material room loaded with the texture you want to edit? Even realtime updating to the Poser preview window isn't that hard to do.
Cheap, easy, and flexible - you just use the graphics editor YOU like, not the (probably very simple) one that the Poser programmers can put in. You'll have all the abilities of Photoshop, PSP, Corel, whatever you want.

The same goes for modeler plugins. It's not that hard to launch an external modeler loaded with the 3D data that's currently within the Poser workroom. Admittedly more work and more complications than with a grapihcs editor or a text editor, but it can be done in reasonable time and for a reasonable price.

Most people forget that Poser already has sort of a way to support external renderers. Anyone ever used RIB export? (I didn't, but one of these days I'm going to try it out. Renderman compliant standalone renderers can be had by the dozen.)

There's only one 3D program being rewritten from the ground up AFAIK: Lightwave. And it has put back new features in Lightwave for a year or two, so now Lightwave users are complaining that their app isn't keeping pace with the others. While a full rewrite of Poser would be very good from a modern programming viewpoint (the codebase is some horrible 1990s spaghetti code, AFAIK), it would take several years to bring a rewritten Poser up to the functional level it has now.
See DAZ|Studio. Started several years ago, and still far less capable than Poser. Although the core is far more modern and far better programmed. In another 5 to 10 years, DAZ|Studio might catch up.

No, what I would like most in a next version of Poser is full Python support. wxPython accessible from PoserPython itself. Or even better, Poser accessible from an external Python environment.  And, of course, all of Poser's functionality exposed in a Python API.
Making the Poser SDK freely available to registered Poser users would alsi be an very clever move. There's a lot of talented programmers out there, let those make the plugins and extensions for Poser, they'll come up with functionality SmithMicro never thought of....

Quote - Two examples of how good the Poser rigging actually IS:
XAA's improved Posette. Perfect basic rigging with a few "standard type" ERC controlled fix morphs.

Look at those awful shoulders, the flat ribbon elbows, the breasts that seem to be filled with sand and you can see how good Poser's rigging ISN'T. The morph brush is only a tool with limited use. It doesn't work with animation, cant add new geometry where there isn't enough to support the joints, cant change poser's horrible IK, can't add proper bone articulation in the shoulder or the knee, does nothing to fix the idiotic 2 bone spine, and dozens more such limitations and issues in the common poser rigging.

Rather then waste time on trying to fix these issues on the mesh, it's far easier to just do the corrections in Photoshop on the render directly. Or get yourself a real sculpting app like ZBrush or Mudbox and go nuts on creating models that are 1000x the detail/quality of what poser chokes on.

Quote - I was wondering what would make a real difference in upcoming versions of poser, something that would make it a must buy!

It's already a must buy for people who want a quick morphing/posing app. What else are you gonna use at this price ? Well maybe DAZ is becoming a serious contender. As for 'difference,' I dont see what they could add to poser that would make it attractive to anyone outside our little corner of the CG world. Most features they'v added over the past few versions have been mediocre at best, with a few notable exceptions like the material room. And even that is severely limited by not being able to use custom shaders. Maybe the rumored GI feature would be a good addition, but given how hard it is to make REYES do nice/fast GI, i'm not very hopeful.

Plus the thing is, as long as youre a casual 3D guy, you will be happy with Poser as it is. It's cheap, effective and lets you do cool renders with minimum of effort. But when you eventually want to do more serious/commercial stuff, you will have to move on to better solutions and use poser only for its content. That's just how it is.

I'd like the lighting reworked in Poser, but the rest of it is okay with me.
I've used it for years and years and I'm comfortable with it.
Don't like dials? So use the numeric input. It's there.

Maybe I misread, but I think you want D|S not Poser. I don't need to edit textures in Poser, I have better programs to do that with, that give me far more flexibility than an in-built (which would bloat it) graphics editor.
Poser has nodes, which I prefer over bloated textures when I can use them.

Yeah the app has flaws, we all know that.
Comparing it to Max / Maya is... silly. Even comparing it to ZBrush is silly. It's not the same thing, it's not even close.
And if you wanted Poser to be more in line with Max and Maya - then it will also come with the appropriate pricetag.
Besides which... When I buy Poser, I know all the bits in it will work.
When I buy a base app (or in D|S case it's free) and then I have to spend megabucks to get plugins, which stop to work at every upgrade... no thanks.
You have to weigh it up for yourself, but personally... nah.

I do agree that releasing the Poser SDK would be a smart move because I think we could see some very cool plugins from such a move.
However, this is a hobby. If I want to pursue it professionally - I get the appropriate software.

"Rather then waste time on trying to fix these issues on the mesh, it's far easier to just do the corrections in Photoshop on the render directly. Or get yourself a real sculpting app like ZBrush or Mudbox and go nuts on creating models that are 1000x the detail/quality of what poser chokes on."

Yeah right, smearing paint in Photoshop over a 2d render because one can't figure out how to do a proper rig sounds like a plan.
Reminds me of the first model planes I built when I was 6 years old. I didn't care if glue spilled out from the seams, 'cause I thought I "could always paint over it later".
Thankfully my modelling skills developed quite a bit over the years.

Shows you really did not grasp what 3d is actually about:
Creating a virtual world you can actually "enter" and "walk around",
If you "postwork", you go from a 3d model back to a simple 2d picture.
What if you want to change a pose ?
What if you want to render from a different angle ?
What if you re-use that model for another render ?
Oh, wait, yeah...you "postwork" again...
..and again...and again...and again.
Sorry, my time is too precious for that.
I rather fix my meshes ONCE and be done with it.

As for ZB3, I have it.
Nice tool if you want to create meshes from scratch.
But to fix and make custom morphs for Poser meshes, the MorphBrush is a lot more practical.
And as I said, if Poser isn't good enough for your ambitions, noone stops you to use a more professional tool instead.

BTW, MorphBrush morphs can be animated like any other morph, too.
So they are the PERFECT solution for Poser animators.

Unlike photoshopping.

I understand JoePublic's point, but I think that if Smith Micro went to a modular approach we'd end up paying a lot more money for the program with all the bells and whistles.  Having other options available gives you room for growth, perhaps you may read a book or get inspired and want to use some of the other rooms--it's better to have them I think than having to pay an overly inflated price for them later.  Then there's Poser 7 Pro which is coming out with the connivity to higher end software that people want.

If you read The Secret of Poser Artists, an excellent book BTW, you'll see that Poser is already used extensively by professionals in everything from comic books to television ads to print ads to illustration.  It is a much maligned software that doesn't deserve the bad rep it gets--the 3D purists who beleive one can only create great visions in excessively expensive software packages are sadly mistaken.  There is Poser art everywhere, I see it often in ads and even in the new Tarot Deck I recently purchased--it's not difficult to spot it.  It's the graphic designers dirty little secret.

I agree that the Poser interface needs and overhaul, a lot of screen space is wasted, it could be more efficeint--but I'm used to it now and can live with it.

I'm just glad the OP isn't in charge of Poser's developement.

I'd love to see a complete rewrite of Poser.  Honest, I would. 

A better, faster renderer, Face, Hair and Cloth rooms that actually work properly, instead of frustrating the user and (at least in the case of Hair) being useful rather than a novelty.  Decent rigging options, better lighting systems and much better memory management.  And it must be backward compatible with existing content.

Oh, and the moon on a stick, please. :biggrin:

I want Poser to be able to do everything that zbrush, 3DS Max, Lightwave, Modo, Maya, Vue, and Photoshop (of course) can do.......and all for under $200.  That sounds perfectly reasonable to me.

Realistically......?  Better memory management, better program stability, and a better / faster rendering engine.  IMO, everything else -- from animation to lighting -- primarily hangs on those three basic factors.

I suspect that we'll be pleasantly surprised with Poser Pro.

in answer to OP:

1. poser is changing; all software needs to change.
2. the figures are changing as the users' skills improve.
3. for those who don't use the advanced rooms, try "poser figure artist" or possibly "daz studio".
4. I now believe that all the tools are there for advanced users to do creditable toon renders.
   it's just a matter of time before somebody puts together a multi-chapter book (for $19.95
   american) which spells everything out in detail.

The rigging system of Poser isn't that bad - if used right. Examples: Apollo, patorak's Plain Jane (WIP at DAZ), and the rerigging phantom3D has done on V4.

I've seen some incredible work with skin sliding over muscles in 3DS Max at CGTalk. While it would be very cool to have physically accurate skin movement in Poser characters, but a Poser that could do that would be ten times as expensive as it is now (and be called 3D Studio Max, or Maya).

As far as I know, Poser is still the cheapest 3D app that has cloth simulation and strand based hair. The next one is Carrara, at more than double the price of Poser.
DAZ}Studio? Dynamic cloth has been promised for over a year now, and it's still vaporware. And again, it's a paid for plugin. And the version that allows the user to make his/her own dynamic cloth will be far more expensive - as far as I can tell, almost as expensive as the whole Poser package itself. Go figure.

*I want Poser to be able to do everything that zbrush, 3DS Max, Lightwave, Modo, Maya, Vue, and Photoshop (of course) can do.......and all for under $200.  That sounds perfectly reasonable to me.

*Nuff said!

I want Poser to come with a winning Lottery Ticket!

The cloth room in Poser is actually fairly simple to use , in comparison to say Lightwave 8 (which I have) . Its default sdetting work fairly well for basic cloth simulations .

I think the cloth room and hair room should be viewed as complete applications themselves , and people should plan on at least a few weeks to come to terms with them .

You can hide the other rooms by editing the xml file. There are instructions for hiding Content Paradise on the web , the same thing works for the other tabs .

Python scripts are similar to Lightwaves Lscript or maxs scripting language . Nothing is cross application compatible though .

Poser really cruises with a dual core processor and 2 gigs of ram.  I can't complain about long render times since I've upgraded my computer.  I've also been able to do very complex scenes without it slowing down.

One software package can't be everything to everyone.  That, I suppose, is why there are a variety of other programs that can be used with Poser content.  If you want bad memory management try Vue 6 on anything less a powerful work station crashes with just a few Poser items with large texture maps. . .

Frankly I'd rather see Photoshop develop more 3D texturing options in the next next Extended version and add UV mapping.  That's were z-brush capabilities would really come in handy!

Poser Pro 7 was supposed to have a Quidam add on, but alas I don't see that listed in the current ads--did perhaps the deal fall through.  Quidam offers the ability to morph things like Hexagon and painting on the model as well.  If Quidam isn't included I doubt I'll buy it, I can't afford Lightwave, Maya and the likes.

Quote - ...It's hard to even read here lately.  What used to be a nice friendly helpful community...

And it will stay that way, even if I have to kill people to make it :biggrin:

Nothing wrong with Poser for me, it has enough stuff to do what I want.
If you want high end features get a high end program its that easy and if you find one that does everything with little effort let me know I want it. :)

THe main problem with high end applications is that they require high end wallets...

hey, I'm doin' this for fun. Frankly, if I don't use it, I ignore it. Every once in awhile I tackle something new (mostly pretty basic stuff...;), but if they only fixed one thing, I'd hopeit'd be the file system. The ability to go 'back' a level, and not have to start from the top of the list (instead of where you left off).

now I seem to remember someone's business model to make a basic posing and rendering engine, with extra models to give it more functionality ...gimme a D? gimmie and S? what's that spell?...;)

I agree with Sam. Keep every room Poser has just improve them make them better. I don't use them all every time, but when I need it, it's there.

One of the problems I've seen with the modular system/approach is updating bug fixing the program. If the programers have to change the core program very much that means they have to update all of the plugins which in turn means you have to redownload them all over again and reinstall or update them too. With everything attached and together as one the update is a one time deal and it's simple and you're done. There are pro's and con's to either system I suppose. In the end it will become a debate of which system is easier for the maker's to maintain with all of the components. With modular a future release may not be compatible with an old plugin because the creator didn't update or quit making it(possible anyways). I'm glad to see Poser and Daz Studio aren't clones of each other. Keeps it interesting.

dogor,

I think a modular system is a problem, I know its nice to focus on one task at a time but the biggest problem is when you need to intergrate a task when working on something thats not related to that task.

A better system is to keep all the tools in one main window and to allow focus to the tools you need for the task at hand, I think this helps with workflow instead of jumping back and forth between rooms.

For poser it may not be a bad idea to simplify the interface to allow maximum work space with minimal gadgets and widgets taking up as much room as they do.

Quote - Wow - have a goat people....  The guy simply expressed HIS opinion on some rooms.  Said in the first few sentences:

"Poser should be modular with plugins like 3ds max or lightwave, that way you buy just what you need and it does not become an overbloated app."

actually, this was understood, and debated.  first of all, there are a number of plugins for Poser. if corleone1 wants there to be more, he should probably learn Python and start becoming active in the Python community.  second, it pre-supposes that the rooms he doesn't use are "overbloated," when as far as i can tell from other 3d apps, most Poser's features are basic to most along with modeling

Quote - Then went on to discuss which features he uses and he doesn't.  Didn't say "GET RID OF ALL THE ONES I HATE"

no, he said exactly that.  twice.

Quote -
Get rid of some of those poser room. somehow i find most of the poser room useless...i only use the pose and material room.

Quote - That is why i am saying that i do not need this rooma and that it should be gone.

as for the render engine being absurd, i dunno, i get pretty solid results out of it.  but it would be nice to have better memory management.  though i shouldn't say that, since i'm still on Poser 6.

i will say i find it odd to talk about bloat and then ask for an image editor with layers, something that is traditionally a huge honking resource hog all on its own, within a 3d program, but at the same time getting rid of 90% of the actual 3d features.  i can see where that would be convenient, but to me it sounds impractical.  but since i realize that not every user is like me, i can also see where that would be a benefit.  still, have either of you thought of contacting Adobe and telling them you want plugins to add posing and texturing to their app?  after all, that sounds like smaller change.

that said, with nodes you don't need layers. nodes can combine much more complexly than layers.

i'm not sure why you think it's being hostile to point out that these requests lack consideration of other users and realistic developer resources.  as has been pointed out, D|S was originally written from the ground up to do about 1/100th of was possible in Poser when it first came out, and it took years, and was off of DAZ announced release dates by years.   i think it's interesting how this community is so hard on the developers of application that's the basis of the community.  if a post like this had attacked Philc's products, or Stonemasons, or DAZ's in this way, this would be a hot burning flame war.  i don't think a few reasoned posts pointing out why the OP is off base is being rude or hostile.

personally, i think it's ironic that Poser's developers get touted as not listening to customers, when i've seen requests for just about every change they packed into new versions.  in P7, they gave "seven reasons to buy," but each reason was usually about 3 different new features.  there was only 1 year of development, and yet there were arguably 21 discreet features that could be marketed.  that doesn't address any tweaks and improvements that programmers made that were too complex to market.  and most "we need..." threads have posts with about 10 requests each, including a rewrite from the ground up.  that's just nuts.

for once, i agree with XENOPHONZ (hell is freezing over as we speak! ;D).  i wish they'd just make it more stable and render more efficiently.  i'm sure there are some improvements they could make to the setup room, i know they could improve the cloth room, and i'd love a plain, more efficient, better designed interface. for instance, several icons could take up less resources and use less screen real estate if they just weren't 3d buttons.    i'd sure as hell like proper translucency and SSS.  but the fact is, i really only need it to be more stable, faster, and able to render poster size.  i can't make posters even for myself because i can't render at the 6000+ pixel size every place i've found requires. and that's planning to print at 200 dpi.  even with a single figure, i've not been able to get above 3200 x 2400.

Quote - for once, i agree with XENOPHONZ

Uh, oh.......I'd better go back and check to see what I said wrong............:ohmy:

I've not had any stability issues with P7, only the occasional bleep when it runs out of memory, but considering I use one-texture-sheet characters (as opposed to one for the head, one for the body, one for the eye), I guess my memory usage within the program is a bit more economical than most.

The interface could use a little work, but I'm so used to it now that a major change would almost be a disruption. :-)

Quote - in P7, they gave "seven reasons to buy," but each reason was usually about 3 different new features.

And for every single one, somebody said "what do we need that for?" :-)

Quote - > Quote - in P7, they gave "seven reasons to buy," but each reason was usually about 3 different new features.

And for every single one, somebody said "what do we need that for?" :-)

True... but I don't think there was a single one where everyone said that...

JonTheCelt

I must disagree that no one wanted the new features in Poser 7.  If others didn't agree they had no reason to upgrade, I know there are still people running Poser 5 (the most buggy version I think) and 6.  To me, multiple undos made it worth the purchase price if nothing else--I can't tell you had many times in the past I had to either reconstruct the scene from the beginning or revert to a prior saved version because I couldn't repair the changes I'd made.  Multiple undos have elliminated that need, it  was also a feature that Poser users had specifically asked for.   Auto save would be nice for future versions in case of rendering crash or the still upresolved "poof to the decktop" error.

Other good features that I've found helpful were the morphing paint brush and the replicate command.  The replicate feature is great because it will replicate any object in a scene, including full figures--something Daz Studio can't do.

Other than that I wish the next version would provide a new line of figures:  very few people love either Syndey or Simon (James with a new head stuck on this body).  The all have shoulder rigging problems and I think they are rather unattractive--but that's just my opinion of them--if people love them, then great.  I just think then need to scrap the G2s and come up with something entirely new and different with good rigging and more versatile body morphs.  I would perhaps love the G2s more if more vendors would create content for them--there is some but nothing that rivals the Victoria line of Daz.

There are only two issues which bother me.  Lighting and Memory management.

It would be great if the lighting intensity in the preview bore some slight relation to the final render, especially with IBL.  I know, most of us know to "turn down the lights", but it's frustrating to have to render and render with minor adjustments to get a realistic result.

Memory management - well I've learned to wait until everything loads before daring to move my mouse, otherwise I snap back to the desktop.  A reboot frees up the memory, but it's hard to remember to reboot when deep in a project.

That's it.  Everything else is fine with me - I don't use the hair room, and am constantly learning in the material room, but that's half the fun.

The one thing, the biggest, major thing, that I would like to see improved is lighting and the way Poser deals with shadows. I totally hate the shadowcams and most users don't have a clue how to start with those things.
I'd love to seem them gone or their usage improved.

Other than that - as I said before, it sounds to me like the OP wants D|S, not Poser. No extra rooms, no "bloatedness", an image layering thingy, a uh... what was it? Image editor, right? (I don't use D|S it doesn't run on my box, so forgive me if I don't know what's in it.)

It sorta makes me giggle tho...
I don't think anyone using Max or Lightwave would be caught DEAD using an image editor from within the program.
And as someone already pointed out - you don't need a layering program. That's what nodes are there for, but yeah, they aren't always simple to use. But then, if it's simple to use, that means you have less options.
I'll keep the material room and my shader nodes, thanks. :)

Silke actually I was just thinking about posting exactly that concern, lighting (no GI) and shadows (limited to depthmapped shadows or quite dirty raytraced blurred shadows due to no area lighting/area shadows). 

I too seem to have mixed results with shadows, I wish they could be previewed without rendering.

If we're wishlisting for P8, it would be nice to have an "area render" a la Bryce, where you could look at only a section of an image in rendered form instead of waiting for the whole thing. It would be also nice if Poser could render textures a little better at screen resolution, but that might be asking a bit much. :)

There is an area render in Poser 7.  It's the icon next to the render button, a camera with a dotted box if memory serves me right (I'm at work so I can't check exactly)

Personally, Poser has changed hands more than I can count. The greed overpowers the program and the program is left suffering because once these companies make their little fortune selling it, they dump it without much development.

Real sad if you ask me. The code is old and soupy and needs much improvements.

They only change is the company name on the software and add a few bells and whistles then

sell it off again. It needs an overhaul if it wishes to survive much longer.

I myself, see no need to upgrade past P5. I don't use those bells and whistles.

It's just another piece of bloated software. They are ruining it.

I love the brainwashed people that say P5 was the most buggy LOL. I laugh at that. Works like a charm for me.

(MHO)

Dajadues, I'm glad you didn't have problems with Poser 5--but I bought it when it first came out and it took about 2 years for them to release suffceint patches so that it was useable.  That was the version where they added the most new features, hair, cloth, and the face room.  To be honest it hasn't been all that bad that e-frontier had taken it over;  at least they released update patches in a much more timely factor.  Oh and let us not forget, Poser 5 introduced product activation--that was a real pain in the rear.  So few people upgraded from P4 that in the first patch Curious Labs did away with it.  A lot of people had the fortune to get Poser 5 for free, and by the time it was given away all the bugs had been worked out.  Oh and another thing--there was no simplified materials room in Poser 5 and I don't get the node system at all. . .

Most all the Metacreations sell offs have changed hands more than once.  Painter and the light version of Ray Dream Studio (now called something else)  are the only applications that I know of that weren't  resold. Since Corel bought Painter and they've really made significant and good progress in improving it features and stability.  Metacreations had originally bought it from some other company., whose name escapes me. 

Painter:  developed by company 1---sold to Metacreations---sold to Corel

Canoma:  developed by Metacreations--sold to Adobe and shelfed.

Carrara:  Metacreations (combined Ray Dream and another 3D program)--Evovia--Daz

Poser:  Developed as an add on for Painter--company 1--Metacreations--Curious Labs--e-frontier--Smith Micro.

I suppose that if they rewrote Poser from the ground up we'd end up paying a lot more for it, then people would be complaining that it was too expensive and that it was priced out of the market.  If you look at Carrara's interface you can see how it is related to Poser, it's very simiar---even though they've changed some things.

There is an area render in Poser 7.  It's the icon next to the render button, a camera with a dotted box if memory serves me right (I'm at work so I can't check exactly)

Thanks! I gotta check that out.

I'm glad you didn't have problems with Poser 5--but I bought it when it first came out and it took about 2 years for them to release suffceint patches so that it was useable.

P5 was a horror story for the developers as well,  as the German company that bought CL pretty well demanded it be shoved out the door before it was ready because the parent company was hemmoraging money on other, more lavish projects and needed cash fast. The users screamed at the development team while the parent company just skipped the software off onto eF. I've never liked that particular injustice when people bitch about P5, but that's why it happened.

BTW: that's not a casual rumour. It's straight from CL. You have no idea how bitter they are about the P5 fiasco.

Well we users are partially to blame for the "bug ware" we get.  Users are always pushing for the release because of touted new features and they don't let up until the company releases the software.  Then everyone complains about bugs and crashes, etc.  I think it would be far better if new versions were released less frequently and had fewer issues--I'd be willing to wait longer.  I for one don't want a new version shoved in my face every year.  SeanMartin, I can appreciate the difficulties that some companies face, but by the time P5s bugs were cured version six came out--which had less issues for me, at the time it was an expensive software for me and essentially it just sat on my hard drive.   I had no issues with Poser 4 Pro Pack and that worked fine without crashes.  The Firefly render engine did work well, however, so I'd end up importing my Poser 4 scenes into P5 just to be able to use the better renderer.

SeanMartin, I can appreciate the difficulties that some companies face, but by the time P5s bugs were cured version six came out

True, but by then it became a goal unto itself: the developers wanted to fix P5, even though P6 was already coming into dock.

Quote - Personally, Poser has changed hands more than I can count. The greed overpowers the program and the program is left suffering because once these companies make their little fortune selling it, they dump it without much development.

Agreed. Yesterday, I happened to notice a sticker for a Smith Micro product (for some sort of asset tracking product, I believe) on the back of a six-figure-pricetag Oscilloscope. Obviously, 3D/CG is an afterthought to the current owners of Poser, so I don't expect much more out of them than a tenant would of an absentee landlord. If they do have a vision for it, I don't expect that vision to have much depth... /P