Quote - I am happy to know that people are interested, I would like to add that I also have a low res,  (12000 poly's) and a medium res (35-40k poly') version of both of my new model projects that I am working on , so that there will be more options for peoples choice.

That's a very smart move.  I've been following your other posts and I am excited to see what you end up with.

I work with the same ethic in that I like to make things I can be proud of in the end.  Even if nobody uses them (and it does happen with some projects) I still have the satisfaction of knowing I made something that I wanted to see come to life.

I have done quite a bit of figure-rigging (most of it in toon lines of figures, but also robots and complex objects), morphs and magnets used solely as morph-development tools for the end user.

If you need any help or are puzzling over anything or would like a beta tester... just let me know.  I would love to support your figures with add-on products and have a decent track record of supporting 3rd party and non-mainstream figures (Sixus1's HER, Jessi G2, Alexa, Miki 2, Apollo, etc).

Even a hair conversion system would be a nice touch :)

There are some threads around that discuss the body switch but an example would be the hands on the old Poser 2 figures. Instead of finger posing there was a hand dial that just switched out geometry for different hand shapes. Some old props link the Victoria morphing Eyewear also used a geometry switch. I once set up Poser 4 Nude Woman to switch between the standard head and a head remapped to its own map. My experience with this stuff is that if you made a lo res figure with a geometry switch to a high res head, the morph channels on the .cr2 would work if the appropriate morphs were injected... I have switched head geometry by making a head prop and using "replace body part with prop" and when the morphs for the replacement head were injected  they worked fine.

People might ask why you need a low res body under clothes instead of just turning off the hidden body part's visibility but I find quite often the clothes leave gaps that must be filled. It isn't often practical to just turn off the chest/collars/arms etc.

I bet you would have a market with animators if you had a figure that could go long shot in lo-res and feature the same character in hi-res for close-ups and inserts. I just want lo and medium res so I can get more than two fully dressed figures in a scene.

Bookmarked for interest.

Netherworks:  I will definitely need people to beta test these figures, I run them through what I have but they will need thourough testing.

momodot:  Those are some thought provoking ideas, I was reading somewhere in another thread about using a dial to switch body parts.  It just seems to me something like that would solve many problems especially for animation. But wouldn't you have to have the geometry for the high res head loaded to use a dial? If thyou do then that would not give any benefits for resources.  But switching the head with a prop that could work and you would not have to have the high res head loaded untill you needed it. That could be set up with just a mouse click.

I am going backward a bit with the development of my models because I noticed something the other day.  When I rigged V4 to my special rig, I noticed that her shoulderblades deformed better than my two models did when the arms were bent upwards.  So I studied the phenomenon and came to the conclusion that it was the edge looping done in the area of the shoulderblades that gave the better deformation in the bend.  So I have decided to go back and do some edgelooping of my own on the shoulderblades of my models. They have different geometry but still the principle is the same and I think I can wring a little bit better performance out of them.  I know this slows me down a bit in finishing them but I think in the end it is worh the effort.  Plus I can work on the low res figures at the same time since the low res figures are just the high res figures at a lower subdivision. I hope everyone will be patient with me its only an extra week tops to get the extra work done.

cheers,

phantom3D

3/24/08

Patient? He don't know us very well, do he?

Actually, the more quality and innovation you can pack into phantom3D figures version 1.0, the better for all who might use them. The Poser/D|S/whateversite market place is filled with half finished products, and most of us cannot re-rig, re-joint, and re-model poorly designed figures, props, hair, cloths, scenes, etc. for ourselves. Don't rush.

I find watching your progress to be fascinating, and I hope you will continue to share renders from time to time.

LMK

Attached Link: UMT

I think Wardrobe Wizard and UMT could be a method people could use to convert their clothes and morphs, but there some things that would need to be settled first:  

1. Make sure is okay with a re-rigged V4. (There was one here in Renderosity that gave extra bones to the breasts, so I think it would be okay, but it never hurts to check.

2. Have PhilC add V4 New Rig figure to Wardrobe Wizard (you will have to talk with him on the finer details).

3. Have Universal Morph Transfer updated and/or upgraded to include V4 and the New Rig V4. Users can convert their V4 morphs to New Rig V4 as INJ and REM. (Contact mmogul to discuss the details).

What do you think of my plan? ^^
I really like what you've doing with the rig, phantom3D. ^^

bB

Quote - momodot:  Those are some thought provoking ideas, I was reading somewhere in another thread about using a dial to switch body parts.  

It would cool to have a Low Res figure but dial in a High Res head and/or hands for close-ups. ^^

BUT you risk loosing DAZ Studio compatibly. I'm not sure DS can handle geo switching.

You could just make a hybrid. The hybrid Cr2 would include a line of code that refers to the High Res obj version of your model for the head, the rest could be the default low res.

About the UV maps, and other issues, -- I like that you are doing things your own way.  You are "out-of-the-box" and a good listener too.  ^^

Really the simplest would be a low res figure, a high res figure, and a hybrid as separate figures. I think even the figure variants with different UVs would be more manageable as separate figures. I have not had much trouble saving for instance a lo res figure character and its hi res clone in the library and replacing the former with the latter in a scene on the fly.

I actually hate having to find MAT poses for a hair or prop with external geometry  and only a morph or two so I indulge myself by just saving multiples in the library with the different MATposes applied, deleting the poses I end up with the same memory use on disc more or less but much more ease of use! With injection figures why not have a few varients in the figure library as opposed to dealing with rigging and geometry switching poses... someone like me at least would end up saving the varients as separate figures in the library for fast loading anyhow. I must admit that my workflow is to use a figure saved to the library fully loaded with morphs, dial the character, use a script to spawn new morphs to all the body parts, and then REM all the injection morphs but the expressions before posing. Sometimes I even spawn the morph with the facial expression set and REM the expression channels as well.

On non injection figures I have to export the morphed but zeroed figure as an obj and then import it as a prop and use the Set-up Room to rig it with a shaved down .cr2.

I don't know if objects take up memory when they are on a geometry switch... I wouldn't expect they would but what do I know? The problem with a prop head is that if you save a figure with a prop head the geometry gets saved in the .cr2 as "custom" geometry. When the prop is added by "replace body part" it seems the geometry is also stored in the .cr2. If you change grouping with the grouping tool the geometry of the whole figure is stored externally but in the library folder with the .cr2.

BastBlack, when I saw PoserPros was shutting down I got Dodger's M3 re-shaped and re-rigged to M2 shape and rigging and the V3 with Posette shape/rigging and despite the weak promo renders they look AMAZING on my machine. Too bad they were not the M3RR and V3RR respectively!  They both look great and take stature scaling and injection morphs beautifully.

I wonder what the ultimate market effect would have been if the unimesh and unimesh rigging had been released as Creative Commons that let people sell derivatives. People could have made mesh and rigging solutions that DAZ could have brokered with exclusive agreements given their market command... both Phantom3D and DAZ would make out as bandits if DAZ brokered his re-rigging as a parallel figure but they don't do business that way do they? Instead they will look at his original figures and integrate the innovations on their next figure I suppose.

The sad thing for Phantom3D is that he really has to face the 800 pound gorilla.

lkendall: I am an obsessive, stuborn, pitbull. When I start something I worry it, experiment with it and generally shake it till it does what I want it to do. I couldn't possibly put out something that I was not sastisfied with. There has been alot of crap put out in the past, the frustration in working with things like that is what started me building my own. I used to buy products and buy products to try to find something that would work like I wanted it to. Now I buy stuff just to take it apart and see if they have done anything in making it to suprise me. I don't want to sound totally negative, there are some really good modelers and riggers out there.

I will certainly post some pics of progress.  Shortly I hope to have some comparison shots of the low, mid and high poly models, so everyone can see the differences. Each has its uses, but they are different. on a low poly model for instance you are not going to get nearly as much detail in the mesh either as a starting base or with morphs. But they don't use much in resources.

BastBlack:  That's a good plan for the new rigs, I have rigs for all the past models, M3, V3, David ,M2 and V2.  I built them over the last two years because I have always hated the rigs supplied with the models. I didn't build one for Apollo Maximus, he's already got a good one.
I especially like the idea for transfering the morphs, I have been trying to figure out how that could be done, because I cannot include any fixed and transfered daz morphs with the rigs.Or anything else that they have built. It all has to be like an aftermarket part for a car, you can build your own souped up replacement parts to fit, but you cannot use any of their parts to do it.

That's another great idea for switching the head and hands, it could be like the gen-no gen switch of a model like james.  Cool!

Thanks,

phantom3D

Geometry switch is certainly cool. Probably good as an advertising gimmick too for that matter!

Quote - Geometry switch is certainly cool. Probably good as an advertising gimmick too for that matter!

 
Sounds like a really cool idea, but it still has to be explored and experimented with, see if it's a viable option, with benefits.

Sometimes, a little monkey can snatch the banana right out from under that 800 pound gorrilla's nose, and scamper off to safety.  Just have to worry about getting squished.  lol

cheers,

phantom3D

I posted some shots of my very low res model in a new thread:

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?thread_id=2735005

You've done great work so far. The new v4 hip rig is almost perfect.

Please don't laugh at the next thing that I'll say, because for some people here it might sound stoopiD...  I guess you could "extract" some morph targets from the newly rigged figures so they could be applied (inj) to the original figures?! Nobody will make no objections at this.

Wish you luck and successful work!

Yeah if you choose to convert your own completely original morph targets available for the DAZ rig of V4, that's completely above board and legal.

Is it possible to convert a rig change so it can be applied using a script as Kawecki I think it was did to add body handles to V4? I know there was a Posette re-rigging that was injected from a pose file but there was no grouping or boning change in that instance.

3/26/07

I don't know if one could use a script to alter the original figure in such drastic ways. Many have offered their model in an encoded formate that could only be opened with RTE if the user alreadly had the original OBJ file installed. This seems to have been adequate for legal purposes.

As far as moprhs are concerened, a script or compiled program could be used to find already installed morphs, copy them to a new dirrectory, and then alter just the parts that need a change. Again it would only work if the user had the original morphs already installed. I am not a lawyer, but I think this would work to legally distribute a change in moprhs. It would, however, be a huge challenge to program.

LMK

yes, you can use a script to copy bones or rigging.  that's how WW works.  in fact, WW1 has a script to just do that.  you need it when you want to convert and retain morphs by bypassing  regrouping.  same goes for grouping.  WW1, which works just within Poser, changes rigging and grouping by default, and (iirc, i'm not at my Poser computer right now) allows you to apply those individually for greater control.  just as an example, WW1 can convert clothes from Lady Littlefox's Krystal to Anton's Apollo.  and i think the major issue is the morphing.

i don't know that you can do this without a donor figure, but i would think you could?  

I wonder if PhilC could/would write an installer script for Pantom3D's re-rigging. I bet that would be a terrific market synergy!

Yes the transfer is a major problem without giving any geometry with the new rig.  But as I am coming to understand it can be done, and most people point me to PhilC, so when the time is appropriate I will contact him and see what he tells me.  If he does not want to I will look into it myself and see if I can write a script to do the job.  If it can be done I will get it done.

Quote - If it can be done I will get it done.

Somehow,,,,,,,

I don't doubt that you will.....LOL

Klutz