Justice for some of you Dell owners???
Story

He should also look at some other MFG of computers. Gateway for one who I used to work for. Something I could tell you about pressure selling when calling tech support.
For example if you had a computer that was out of warranty and you just needed a hard drive we where directed to try to sell them a new system. Even if there system was still under warranty we were told to try to upsell either a bigger drive or new system even if they did not need it.

That's very saddening to hear.

Dell is not the only company that does this there are tons of others that practice this too. You find this in the car repair, appliance repair and construction industry as well. I have a friend in Florida that was a A/C refrigeration tech that was working for a company that would have a call center placing calls to residents for a, back then $25 dollars, seasonal system clean and check. He said the techs were instructed to push new costly parts or an entire system replace, even if not needed, to residents and if need be BREAK something in the system to get the customer to pay. One trick was spraying WD40 on condenser coils in an air handler or the compressor system outside and show the resident and tell them they had a serious problem even though they did not.

Or the company would not honor the warranties on the things they installed. They would put the customer in limbo making them wait until the warranty ran out then try to sell them all new parts or systems. Needless to say my friend didn't stay with company he quit and became a police officer LOL!

I don't know why NY state is singling out Dell as there are many companies that practice this. Not to be nasty but maybe some family member of the state's AG got rolled over the coals too many times as it's a fact that politicians do not do anything unless it effects them on a personal level...hehehehe.

I think I know why .  Cuomo bought a Dell and felt he got ripped!

Quote - I think I know why .  Cuomo bought a Dell and felt he got ripped!

Teheheheh

Companys in the UK have some similar sneaky tricks to rip you off. 

One well known satellite TV company sells customer info to "selected partners" even if you opt out.  So you get a letter or call that looks/sounds from it comes from them, but in reality is from a 3rd party who tells you must have insurance for the equipment in the event of damage. Of course the policy is nearly impossible to claim off, plus in most cases your home policy would cover you. 

PPI - Payment Protection Insurance is the biggest scam, most stores/banks will sell you this, again nearly impossible to claim from.

Local TV news last  week was reporting how one guy couldn't claim because he had the wrong kind of heart attack!!    

YES!!!!!!  

I wish I could join in on their law suit!  Dell is a shit company to deal with. Sorry for the language, but they really are.  And their customer service absolutely stinks. I had "on site service" warranty which I had purchased separately. And not once did I ever have anyone come to my home to service my computer. Instead I spent hours on the phone with a tech with them instructing me how to take my computer apart!!!

I hope that Canada will follow suit and take up a class action suit against Dell.  That one I would jump at the chance to join with!

Hello folks ... I soooooo understand your frustration!  I worked for Wells Fargo Bank for 3 years ... and was threatened with losing my job if I didn't send more calls over to the sales department that were sure sales.  I was simple customer service!  I had the same pressure when I was computer sales at Fry's Electronics.  (Best computer education I never paid for!!! )   This is ... unfortunately the standard in retail sales.  No matter what company you are talking about.  I honestly don't believe there isn't a company out there who doesn't have a similar policy.  Even Hewlett-Packard, although they aren't nearly as hard-sell (I was pre-sales tech support for them as well, and it was my favorite job).  Sorry to hear about Gateway, I really liked their computers ... was totally frustrated when they closed down their local outlets.  Okay, had to get that out.
Boni

Wait a sec. Corporations don't do these things! You're all a bunch of commies out to destroy the capitalist system!

(I got that straight from my corporate handbook, so it's got to be true.)

Attached Link: ATTORNEY GENERAL’S OFFICE WINS MAJOR SUIT AGAINST DELL

**ATTORNEY GENERAL’S OFFICE WINS MAJOR SUIT AGAINST DELL
** www.oag.state.ny.us/press/2008/may/may27a_08.html

I've been pretty loyal with HP for over a decade.  Of course, they had that flap a couple of years ago about the woman who was then the chairwoman of HP's board of directors spying on other board members in order to find out who it was on the "team" that was opposing her.  But I don't know that the scandal extended down to the level of affecting customer service issues.  Probably not.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_HP_spying_scandal

Dell?  I've never owned a Dell, or even used one extensively: so I can't speak to that.  I've been happy enough with HP to stick with them -- although I can't say that I've used HP's customer service support often enough to evaluate it.  I haven't had to........which to me is a recommendation in and of itself.

Quote - Wait a sec. Corporations don't do these things! You're all a bunch of commies out to destroy the capitalist system!

(I got that straight from my corporate handbook, so it's got to be true.)

Corporations are only as 'good' or as 'evil' as the people who run them.  Just like the government.

Which means that setting government bureaucrats as the watchdogs assigned to "guard" us from the "evil" corporations is about like appointing the Crips to serve as your neighborhood Crime Watch.  Neither entity can be trusted to act from altruistic motivations.......although they'll both happily claim to.  Some people will even believe them -- or at least they'll believe the government.

A local DA can be every bit as power-hungry and as self-serving as any "evil" corporate CEO can be.  In fact, corrupt politicians like nothing better than spending their time in showy television-audience-oriented crusades against "corrupt" corporate types.  It helps to take the negative attention off of the politicians.  As has been recently demonstrated by Congress hauling up oil company executives to grill them over the price of gas at the pump.......when it's Congress that won't let the oil companies drill or build new refineries as they need to in order to increase domestic supplies, and thus bring down the market price.  But "evil oil company executives" fit the current Accepted Template For Villainous Types, so they serve as a nice, convenient Target of Distraction for corrupt politicians to point fingers at.

Sure -- corporations can be self-serving and greedy.  But government can be tyrannical and power-mad -- not to mention greedy.

People who look to the government to save them from evil corporations are like chickens looking to a gigantic wolf to protect them from a small fox.  A very small fox, by comparison to the damage that the wolf is capable of doing.

Maybe with Dell it depends on where you are in the world.

My father & I both purchased Dell computers & have had no problem, with the computer & with support, but then we are in Australia.

In UK - also got a Dell - around 5 years old never had any problems with it. Found support was no better or worse than most computer companies. Be polite and persistant.
Creative is the exception, always provided great support.

The worst support ? Has to be from ISP's. AOL and Talk Talk in particular.  

Quote - Sure -- corporations can be self-serving and greedy.  But government can be tyrannical and power-mad -- not to mention greedy.

People who look to the government to save them from evil corporations are like chickens looking to a gigantic wolf to protect them from a small fox.  A very small fox, by comparison to the damage that the wolf is capable of doing.

Well ... we're getting terribly off-topic, but ... while I agree up to a point, I think big multi-national corporations and big government are sort of made for each other, especially in the complex, high-tech world in which we live in which any self-serving or greedy decisions on the part of a few so called "very small foxes" can adversely affect the privacy of, or the health of (and/or cause the deaths of) millions (much like big government can) -- i.e., so long as they (big corporations and big government) are battling it out with each other, it helps keep things a little more in balance.

Of course things can get out of balance the other way, too, and it is always arguable as what is and is not in balance, but if you eliminate, say, big government, or allow the government agenda to be taken over by corporate interests -- one or the other of which so many seem to argue for these days -- it leaves no one with enough clout or resources to battle those "very small foxes" effectively.

And then there is also the argument that, however corrupt, representative government officials are supposed to have to answer to and for the common interests of all their constituents (and often do, even if usually too little too late) -- i.e., that "gigantic wolf" you mentioned is supposed to be us collectively -- whereas corporate officials answer (mostly) to their stock holders and own narrower interests, which may or may not take into account the interests of the commonwealth (oh, yes, and they sometimes answer to said government officials, but only when they are effectively in the fray).

(Of course all this is off-topic ... and I probably shouldn't have said anything ... but it's just that I've noticed you frequently say things political for no discernible reason ... and (since I've been observing at least) nearly always go unchallenged ... and I know my point of view's probably "ignorant" from your point of view ... so flame away ... or whatever ...)

Glad Dell finally got caught...now for the others.... And Dell, HP, Gateway, feh! Whitebox is the only way to fly.

:: quietly hugs all three of his Macinstoshes ::

Quote - :: quietly hugs all three of his Macinstoshes ::

Good luck finding software fer them things lol but then I play  a lot of games and  unless you get the one that you can slap windows on yer sol for games.

 Dont even get me started on the one button mice

Quote - > Quote - :: quietly hugs all three of his Macinstoshes ::

Good luck finding software fer them things lol but then I play  a lot of games and  unless you get the one that you can slap windows on yer sol for games.

 Dont even get me started on the one button mice

Okay, where have you been?

All of mine have three button mice. Yeah, I had to buy them separately, but it wasnt the end of the world. And the new Intel Macs can play PC games, just like they can run other Windoze software.

Sorry, no points for that one.

Yup. Just bought my first Dell after having terrible hardware problems on the last Gateway I bought... as HD was a piece of bad sector-ridden junk. The Dell sales rep was great. He listened to what I wanted and stayed within the price range I set. Less than 3 months into this, and I've had to restore twice, losing everything I loaded, and finally figured out it's software and drivers conflicts. This after having to call their pricey tech service (couldn't boot up), and being told my motherboard was damaged and would have to be sent back. The error message on boot? Well, the tech "couldn't remember" what it meant, and obviously didn't want to bother to look it up. (It was trying to boot from the USB device: the printer.) By the accent, the guy was in the southeast US. Can we say I wasn't impressed? Once I got back online, this error was posted in the Dell Forums with instructions to fix it. I'm not pressing my luck on their interpretation of low-interest at this point. Deal was, if I pay it off by September, there's no interest, so the savings account will have to absorb what's left in August. We'll see. Do I think Dell is worse than anyone else out there? No. Do I think Dell probably has some excellent employees? Yes. The problem is finding them. Now, if you want to discuss Best Buy and why I'll never step foot in one again... And while we're on the general subject, would someone tell Bill Gates that not everyone wants a toy collection for an OS? How about something that just boots up and does what it's told?

Quote - Yup. Just bought my first Dell after having terrible hardware problems on the last Gateway I bought... as HD was a piece of bad sector-ridden junk. The Dell sales rep was great. He listened to what I wanted and stayed within the price range I set. Less than 3 months into this, and I've had to restore twice, losing everything I loaded, and finally figured out it's software and drivers conflicts. This after having to call their pricey tech service (couldn't boot up), and being told my motherboard was damaged and would have to be sent back. The error message on boot? Well, the tech "couldn't remember" what it meant, and obviously didn't want to bother to look it up. (It was trying to boot from the USB device: the printer.) By the accent, the guy was in the southeast US. Can we say I wasn't impressed? Once I got back online, this error was posted in the Dell Forums with instructions to fix it. I'm not pressing my luck on their interpretation of low-interest at this point. Deal was, if I pay it off by September, there's no interest, so the savings account will have to absorb what's left in August. We'll see. Do I think Dell is worse than anyone else out there? No. Do I think Dell probably has some excellent employees? Yes. The problem is finding them. Now, if you want to discuss Best Buy and why I'll never step foot in one again... And while we're on the general subject, would someone tell Bill Gates that not everyone wants a toy collection for an OS? How about something that just boots up and does what it's told?

But if MS actually made an OS that just booted up and did what it was told, they'd lose the upgrade market.  Of course they've already lost a good share of it with Vista.

Bottom line, if there's money to be made most companies/people will try & rob you. It's a sad fact of life, from the big businesses to the small.
My friends tell me I have a negative outlook, it's because I'm sick & tired of bullsh!t from people.
How do people sleep at night knowing they just scammed someone?

Quote - Bottom line, if there's money to be made most companies/people will try & rob you. It's a sad fact of life, from the big businesses to the small.
My friends tell me I have a negative outlook, it's because I'm sick & tired of bullsh!t from people.
How do people sleep at night knowing they just scammed someone?

Probably very, very well.

Hate to say it, but it's probably true.

I dont mind one whit calling people on their stupid mistakes (I've left a few messages at the DAZ forums that basically rip their marketing and service people a new one when they make their now-monthly blunders), but for the rest, all I can do is just trust in Karma. Yeah, some oil trader who's jacked the price up so he can buy another bimbo is gonna get it -- I have to believe that. Otherwise, I'd be looking for a shotgun and a few home addresses.

And that's a pretty lousy attitude to have about life.

If someone has worked damn hard to make something & wants to make an honest living out of it, I have no problem with them being a little OTT in their selling. So long as I know what I'm getting for my money with no hidden agendas then it's OK by me.
I'm actually amazed some companies will try the scams when they know down the road it'll hurt their reputation.
I wish I believed in Karma.

"But "evil oil company executives" fit the current **Accepted Template For Villainous Types"

What's funny to me is how the media (and similar companies, like the software giants) just happen to never do anything evil.

Not like "controlling hearts and minds" is a recipe for abuse or anything, lol.
**

**>> "But "evil oil company executives" fit the current Accepted Template For Villainous Types"

Except that anyone who's researched this knows that the oil companies' profit margin has actually dropped in the last few years. If you want to blame anyone for this nonsensical situation, I can think of two places:

(1) oil speculators, who manipulate the price for profit on Wall Street

(2) the White House, whose little foray into Iraq destabilized the region so much that prices, by necessity, skyrocketed. Remember that in November.
**

I can think of one industry where profits are at record levels, and we all contribute every time we fill up the jalopy. Business creates the problem by its very nature. Sales and profits must always exceed last year, partly because most people, from the janitor to the stockholder, would like to earn a little more than they did last year. MS could still provide upgrades to a stripped-down OS by increasing the speed and efficiency, not eye-candy that actually slow it down. As far as those little digs that everyone seems to get into every product or service... anyone changed their TV provider lately? hmmm.. I now have digital sevice with a DVR...but I can't use the DVR for recording anything unless I want to pay yet another $12 a month. I have free On Demand, but it costs $3.99 for each program I 'demand'. I have "free" HD, but to actually see the HD channels... you guessed it, an additional $10 a month. All sorts of 'free' stuff, that doesn't work without spending more. I'm getting nostalgic for the days when you spent one day a week adjusting the antenna on the roof, and the internet was all words. erm... maybe not. ;)

Quote - > Quote - > Quote - :: quietly hugs all three of his Macinstoshes ::

Good luck finding software fer them things lol but then I play  a lot of games and  unless you get the one that you can slap windows on yer sol for games.

 Dont even get me started on the one button mice

Okay, where have you been?

All of mine have three button mice. Yeah, I had to buy them separately, but it wasnt the end of the world. And the new Intel Macs can play PC games, just like they can run other Windoze software.

Sorry, no points for that one.

Weren't trying to make any points just poking fun at the rediculous things I see about Mac computers. The guy who thought  oh screw it no one will ever need more than one button on a mouse should have to use one ( I was gonna say should be smacked over the head with one )
 and yeah the Intel thing made it easier to get software and games for them but for all those pre-Intel macs?

I had to use Macs in  several of my college classes  and they worked ok but  it was a pain getting used to the stinking one button mouse that they had not replaced.and  there was not a day  go by that at least one of those machines would crash. it got  to be a funny thing between me and a few others in the class and we really had a blast when the Professor's comp shit the bed trying to play a simple video clip. One of us offered to pull out our Windows laptop to play the file but she just gave us all a dirty look and made us wait 20 minutes while the thing got over its fit and she got it working again lol.

Quote - >>
Except that anyone who's researched this knows that the oil companies' profit margin has actually dropped in the last few years.

Could you give me some links? I've heard just the opposite, that the oil companies profits have actually been at record levels.

This is why I like building my own computer. I get exactly what I want and the customer service supprt is on par with any company's (i.e.: non-exsistant)

Quote - Except that anyone who's researched this knows that the oil companies' profit margin has actually dropped in the last few years.

I don't know where your information comes from, but my father worked in the oil biz his whole life, and I've worked in or around it, in one sense or another, pretty much my whole life, and I can tell you from personal experience and observation:  when the price of gas is up, the domestic oil patch booms, and the longer the price stays up the more domestic drilling and exploration and employment go up; when the price of gas goes down too far and for too long, the domestic oil patch goes bust.

I've seen it happen exactly that way, and more than once.

As for speculators and political instability driving up the price, you are right, but it doesn't mean the oil companies don't profit accordingly (and even if profits are not technically up -- as you claim, but which I doubt -- profit doesn't mean much as there are lots of ways of hiding profit, like re-investment, etc.), and aside from a few environmentally sensitive areas, generally speaking, domestic drilling increases as the price of oil goes up, because it becomes more cost-effective (i.e., profitable) to explore and exploit domestic resources (which generally incur higher labor costs and are generally more expensive to get to, either because of sour gas and sand control problems, or because they are deeper, or on the sea floor, or require slant drilling, etc.  -- i.e., the easy-and-cheap-to-get-to oil in the US has mostly already been gotten, due to the fact that the US has had a larger demand for oil for a lot longer than much of the rest of the world,  and what remains here is not as easy or as cheap to get at).

So believe what you want, and pretend official profit margins always tell the whole story if you want, but the oil companies are definitely making more money.

Quote - As has been recently demonstrated by Congress hauling up oil company executives to grill them over the price of gas at the pump.......when it's Congress that won't let the oil companies drill or build new refineries as they need to in order to increase domestic supplies

Not sure where you get this, Xeno. I can't claim to be up to the minute on everything that is going on, but the last I heard -- in spite of Democratic efforts to repeal them -- the tax breaks to encourage domestic production are still in place; also, last I heard, building new refineries at this time wouldn't be worthwhile from the point of view of the oil industry as the current refineries are not running at or near capacity.

Further, far from being victimized by Congress, the oil industry has been favored by Congress  more times than not -- just, for example, by the legislation that passed after Katrina to streamline government permits for refineries, limit the influence of citizen groups so that any oil company’s legal costs in the event of any lawsuit to challenge the location of any new refinery would have to be paid by such groups, win or lose, weaken environmental protections, and open federal lands for future refinery construction -- as well as offering subsidies to build refineries even though oil companies executives essentially said in response: "Thanks anyway, but regardless of such legislation, we don’t have any interest in building any new refineries in this country."

Have forgotten the name of the bill now, and I'm not sure if the Democrats have changed any of its provisions yet or not, but since Bush vetoes most everything they do, I kinda doubt it.

Anyway, am I misinformed, way behind, or just badly mistaken?

From USNews and World Report (Frebruary 1, 2008): "The oil industry urges people to look beyond its profits to its profit margin: about 7.6 percent of revenues late last year. That's not much higher than the 5.8 percent profit margin for all U.S. manufacturing, and if you exclude the financially troubled auto industry from that analysis, the oil industry actually appears less profitable than most manufacturers, which were earning 9.2 cents on every dollar of sales."

From Gibson Consulting: "The US deficit, around $500 billion in 2004, causes the value of the dollar to decline. Because oil is priced in dollars, no matter where in the world it comes from, producers want higher prices in order to maintain their income." That means that adjusting for inflation and measuring this in real dollars, with the decline settling in, the profits made are actually worth less, which means a lower profit margin compared to previous years. And the higher our deficit, the less our dollar is worth.

From the NYTimes: "Exxon said its refining margins dropped last quarter, reducing its profit from refining operations by 39 percent, to $1.17 billion, from the period a year earlier."

From the International Herald Tribune (January 17, 2007): "Crude and natural gas futures have found stability after a year of spikes due to major hurricanes, production mishaps and geopolitical fears. Earnings for Big Oil are bound to fall by 20 percent to 30 percent from the peak profits obtained in the second and third quarters, experts say. Analysts surveyed by Thomson Financial also expect oil company profits to fall between 7 percent and 37 percent from the same quarter a year earlier, when natural gas prices were sky-high due to the shortage produced by hurricanes Rita and Katrina."

From the Contra Costa Times (May 6, 2008): "While the dollar amount of oil company profits is indeed huge, the profit margin is in line with other industries. Over the past several decades, oil company profit margins have been below the national average for all industries."

From James Schott: "Everyone got all excited about Exxon-Mobile’s $40 billion profit in 2007. But looking just at the amount of the profit—the number of dollars—doesn’t provide you with enough information to discuss the issue of whether that profit is “indecent.” In order to have made $40 billion (that’s $40,000,000,000) in profits, Exxon-Mobile needed revenues of more than $404.5 billion (that’s $404,500,000,000), of which $334 billion ($334,000,000,000) goes to cover costs. By the way, Exxon-Mobile paid about $30 billion ($30,000,000,000) in taxes in 2007."

From Forbes, May 2, 2008: "But because gasoline prices have not kept pace with oil's stunning ascent to triple digits, Exxon Mobil and other big oil companies have seen far lower margins from refining and selling gasoline and other petroleum products. That's because Exxon Mobil and others don't produce enough oil to satisfy their refining operations, so they have to buy crude at market prices too."

So here's the bottom line on all this:

The dollar is weak; that causes the price to go up. It also causes the real-dollar value of any profits to decline because they're not worth as much. $40 billion sounds like a lot, but compared, in real money, to profits from the 80s, it's down.

And the real culprits, investors, fresh off their run from housing (which was fresh off their run from internet stocks) are jumping into commodities like gold and oil; that causes the price to go up. They will get burned just like before, and the price will drop to ~$80.

Quote - but compared, in real money, to profits from the 80s, it's down

I thought you said "in the last few years." Most of us, I presume, thought "few" meant, you know, 2, 3 or 4? In that light, the "last few years" are not very much addressed in any of the quotes you offered, and again, all these quotes address profit, but not rates of reinvestment, etc.

And, well, if you're bottom line is to compare today's profits to profits from the 80's ... that's a whole nuther story.

Now we've got to do an extensive 10 year study to look at all the economic and legislative changes since the 80's to determine who is right, 'cause that was eons ago in terms of the business environment in which they were operating then.

But, look, you might be right. And it is not my intention to bash the oil industry for making a profit. So long as they aren't intentionally dragging their corporate feet or propagandizing the public to protect vested interests, and are not starting unnecessary wars for profit and making all us poor taxpayers foot the bills, power to them.

All I know for sure:  when the price of gas is up, the oil companies start spending more money -- they even spend more on trying to influence media coverage of the oil industry.

Aside from the question of whether all that extra spending potentially affects profits, where should we suppose that money comes from?

>> I thought you said "in the last few years." Most of us, I presume, thought "few" meant, you know, 2, 3 or 4?

And it does. Go look at the numbers from 1990, 1995, 2000, and now. With all the public discussion on this, they're easily found. What you'll find is that:

(1) compared to the 80s, the real value of the profits are down.

(2) Oil is a cyclical business. Sometimes -- and again, in real dollars -- profits are way up. Sometimes, like now, they're not.

But you miss the point: all this hoopla about outrageous profits is just more posturing by people who dont understand economics. The oil companies may be making big profits but they're also having to deal with even bigger expenses -- and were they to cut their bottom line out of some kind of strange sense of generosity, it wouldnt make any real difference at the pump. It might drop the price a whole dime. And yet all we can do is look at these numbers and get outraged because we think that, were the oil companies not making so much, it might get us back down to 2.00/gallon gasoline. And it's not.

>> So long as they aren't intentionally dragging their corporate feet or propagandizing the public to protect vested interests, and are not starting unnecessary wars for profit and making all us poor taxpayers foot the bills, power to them.

And obviously, they're not. Like I said earlier in the thread, you have two sources right now that can be blamed for this: speculators and the White House. The latter started it all with an unecessary and hopelessly destabilizing regional war -- I mean, c'mon, reality check: if someone halfway around the world had been screwing around with your governments for decades just so it could benefi itself, wouldnt you start to get a little POd? IMHO, that's what's brought us 0911 and Al Quaeda -- not some strange "The US is an evil Satan! supposedly based on Muslim beliefs about our culture. It;s because we have been an evil Satam, propping up governments, taking down others, for no other reason than to keep control in the region. And when that control started to slip away, we started putting in "temporary" military bases in Kuwait, bases that the Kuwaitti  government has been asking us for years now to dismantle... and we respond by calling them ungrateful for having saved their miserable asses in Desert Stiorm 1, that they should be on their knees thanking us in perpetuity!

Right. We just needed to re-establish our control. When diplomacy failed, we moved on to guns and bullets. Now those arent working either, so I'm not sure what to expect next.

And th speculators? Well, when they pretty well destroyed the internet market and the housing market, they too moved on commodities, and as a result, not just oil is up, but so is food. Everyone talks about how the cost of oil is making the cost of rice to go up, and it's not so: it's speculators in Asia and New York and London who are playing this bubble game so they can make a few more bucks, even if it means food riots in Africa. Those are the guys who pushed the price of oil up by almost 100% in less than six months. Not the Saudis, not ExxonMobil. A bunch of guys in overpriced suits, the new generation version of the 1980s Masters of the Universe, as Tom Wolfe described them. And if we had any sense of moral outrage, we'd haul all of them up for crimes against humanity.

Well ... I am so overwhelmed and confused by the fact that you are simultaneously so very, very right and so very, very wrong, I think I'll just bow out of the conversation now.

Your choice, of course -- but if I'm so "very, very wrong", it might nice to know where. Everything up there in that post is a very, very hard truth.

Wow ... everything ... a very, very hard truth, huh?

Wow. By the way, what's your definition of "hard" or "truth"?

Quote - And obviously, they're not.

It's not so obvious to a lot of folks that wars are not being waged for and by the oil industry -- at least indirectly. Aside from the historical record of the oil companies pressuring the US government (which has often given in to said pressure) to stop this or that ruler for making this or that country a less profitable place for them, the current war was started by a couple of guys who are life-long representatives of ... gosh, the oil industry. Second, leaving our soldiers out of things for the moment, a lot of the contractors over there are being paid for by, gosh, the taxpayers, to, among other things, gosh, guard the interests of the oil industry ... and there is no doubt whatsoever that the oil industry has spent considerable money funding bogus research for the purpose of battling environmental concerns, or to convince the public of their innocent purity -- at least some of which just has to qualify as propaganda, like for example, when they tell you in their ads how much they are doing for the environment because they care, when in fact they were dragged fighting and screaming to it after years of litigation, and are being forced to do it by law.

Quote - And if we had any sense of moral outrage, we'd haul all of them up for crimes against humanity.

And ... as for the equivalence you draw between overzealous venture capital investment in the internet -- which was lost due to business failures and withdrawn once investors began to realize the potential they'd thought was just around the corner was a little further off than that, and once it was realized that there were an inadequate number of geeks and nerds to bring some of the more ambitious ideas to life in an environment in which everyone was competing for said geeks and nerds, and that not every idea that popped into someone's head was a worthwhile business proposition just because it had some relation to the internet -- and commodities traders, and then the suggestion that we should haul all such "speculators" up for "crimes against humanity," well ... c'mon. What's your deal? Do you just hate all investors or what? And if so, what shall we replace them with?

Capitalism is, by its nature, about investment. Investors are, by their nature, trying to make money. Further, the "they" you are referring to is not just guys in "overpriced suits" by any absurd stretch of the imagination. And while government policy can make certain types of investment more or less appealing, no one really much controls how investors decide to invest. Who would you suggest do that? And anxiety and panic and fear, as well as the lure of easy money, are even harder to control.

So -- as one apparently overly convinced of your own expertise in economics -- how would you fix things?, and how can you, or anyone, suggest people who are only doing what people have always done in uncertain, fearful times, are all guilty of crimes against humanity?, and after you've put away all the retirees and kids' parents along with the "overpriced suit" types, how will that have helped, or prevent investors (i.e., people) from continuing to do what investors (i.e., people) have always done in scary times?

Do you just hate all investors or what?

Of course not. But even you have to admit there's a teeny, tiny shred of difference between investors who put their money into something not only to make a profit but to ensure the company's continuing good efforts -- and those who choose to rape the economic landscape for solely their own benefit, even if it means to hell with everyone else.

Yeah, a fine line, but a telling one. The former are the millions of shareholders who see growth in capitalism as a good thing; I'm happily one of them. But do you HONESTLY believe that what we're seeing now is "growth"? Food prices out of control, gas prices out of control -- in general creating an economic situation that benefits... well, WHO, precisely? Folks losing their homes, folks starving in Africa because they cant even afford rice -- shall we just write all of them off and say, "Oops, bad nvestment, sucks to be them"? and move on, knowing full well that we (whomever we might be) got out of this with a few extra bucks in our pockets even though others have been put through the wringer?

Is that your idea of capitalism? It damn sure isnt mine, sorry.

Folks wrote earler about people in corporations who consciously mislead, if not outright lie, just so they can make a few dollars more than anyone else -- how, they asked, could these people sleep at night? My response then and now is: very, very well -- because they simply dont care. They'll never see the people they foreclosed on. They'll never have to deal with the people who starved because of them,.

And quite frankly, right now, this very instant, you yourself are coming across as one of those uncaring, "me above all" SOBs who create and manipulate these situations solely for personal advantage.

Yeah, we'll all decry dictators who massacre their people, but we'll quietly ignore the ones who do the same thing, save in more insiduous ways... because, hey, after all, that's capitalism. If you dont win, you lose: isnt that how the game is played? Right? That's the way the system works, right?

Well, sorry, but no, it is NOT how the system is supposed to work. In our version of a capitalist society, we say we're not supposed to just turn out back on those who need a hand. I'm not suggesting socialism, if that's what you're already leaping to: no, instead, I'm simply pointing out that unless the market is kept fluid at all levels, from the highest to the lowest, then capitalism, as we're seeing right now, starts to implode on itself. Those in the lowest ranks cant afford the basic necessities -- well, tell me, where do you then get the workers needed for the day to day operations of your company? You cant even rely on outsourcing anymore, in case you hadnt noticed, because those countries are getting hard hit by spiraling prices as well... even more so than we, because a buck increase in a gallon of gas might sting us a little, but for someone making four bucks an hour, it's a disaster.

So, no workers. What next? Well, if you have no workers, how do you expect to make a profit on anything? You cant jack the price up on something that doesnt exist, and once you're out of inventory, that's it, end of the road. Worse, let's say you run a company involved in transportation -- notice what's happening there? Smaller airlines are shutting down; larger ones are merging to try and save what's left of their economic butts, while at the same time (1) raising fares, (2) having fewer flights, and (3) charging for everything, including -- now -- your carry-on luggage. So people say, screw this, I'll take the train -- and what happens? Fewer tickets, less working capital -- doesnt take a doctorate in economics to see where this is going, does it?

But lest you miss the point about the guys who manipulate these prices -- they're not doing it for the benefit of the mass of shareholders, because that's not how they work. Research a little, and you'll find that they prefer to play both sides against the middle -- running prices up to score a profit on one end, then resetting the game so they win again while the company crashes and burns. Both ways, they -- not the retirees and kids' parents you're so concerned about -- make the money. The retirees and parents get stuck cleaning up the mess, just as they had to back in the 80s, just as they had to in the early 90s, and just as they will have to now.

But, lest you think otherwise, this isnt quite like Black Monday. The market is running on an artificial high right now, powered by speculation and little more. And, believe it or not, it's the same set of circumstances that created Black Monday those many years ago. The only question left right now is when the crash is gonna happen, because it's inevitable. And the numbers this time around are going to be far, far more severe -- why do I say that? Because history is my guide on that point. Again, look it up, see the pattern, and you'll figure it out soon enough.

Insofar as the vested interests of the oil companies... well, d'uh. Of course they're involved... but not to the degree that you think. The balance of that is political economics. The US has always needed that region, and we were more than happy to work behind the scenes: doing this, doing that, doing everything we could to make sure we were in control: politically, economically, and militarily. And for a long time, it worked, until we made the mistake of thinking that the Cold War could be played out in Afghanistan and Iran and Iraq, and those dimwitted natives wouldnt notice a thing.

But funny, haha, joke's on us, because, this time around, they did. Here we trained people like Hussein and Bin Laden to fight the Soviets for us -- only to see them and others like them look at the US and think, "Oh great, we just get rid of one country, now we have to deal with another one trying to take us over?" And unlike the guys in years past, this particular crop didnt feel quite so much like going along with what Washington had to say about how they were supposed to run their lives.

So is it really all that surprising to see the Shah of Iran (who was, remember, put there by us) deposed by a bunch of really, really angry folks? Is it really surprising to see Iraq do the same thing? I know we hate to be seen as the bad guys, but let's face it: we were. Big time. The guard dogs we trained to kill and destroy turned around and bit our hands all the way up to the shoulder... and we're supposed to be shocked and surprised when this happens?

Hell, what did we expect?

So I repeat: thanks to a blithering idiot in the White House, who took us one step too far in re-making the Middle East in our own god-like image, coupled with a few traders on Wall Street for whom all of this is nothing more than a game -- well, welcome to the economics of 2008. Have a lovely stay.

well, I'm actually an authorized Dell service provider, at least until next Februrary...;)

Under the old training system (I'm not making this up) you were given a training site. You were givien 2 URLs; a question site (25 of them), and an answer site. What it tested was your ability to look up answers. I got certified on Servers, printers, laptops, desktops, all without laying hands on most of it (I do work on Latitudes and GX series).

Something must have changed. I've been fixing PCs for 21 years (well, come this Sunday...;) and the new test is about 30 times harder. All of the questions now come with no answers (unless you watch the video). And all of them completely refer to Dell-only knowledge. I tried to help one of the junior techs with the test, just from listening, and was blowing 'em right and left, because the questions were so vauge...;)

Gateway, I've heard, will actually send parts (like motherboards [?!]) to end users to repair their machines...even for laptops (didn't we do a dance like this a year or two back, Acadia?...;)

Quote - And quite frankly, right now, this very instant, you yourself are coming across as one of those uncaring, "me above all" SOBs who create and manipulate these situations solely for personal advantage.

Oh c'mon. Who do you think you're talking to? I'm about as modest in terms of lifestyle as a US citizen can get. I am unemployed (the only reason I have time for this), semi-disabled, but don't qualify for benefits, don't own even a car, and have virtually no assets to speak of. I am the proverbial turnip it is so hard to get blood out of. There's no need to try to demonize me or turn me into an enemy. We are in agreement on much more than you apparently think.

I was just pointing out a couple of areas in which I felt you were making some very broad generalizations. It was you, not I, who equated venture capitalists pulling their money out of the internet as being the equivalent of commodity trading, and you, not I, who neglected to mention that much of the collapse of the tech stocks and speculation in the real estate markets was due to ordinary investors (i.e., retirees, etc.) putting their money into the hands of financial advisers and telling them to make them as much money as reasonable risk allows, and it was you, not I, who -- at the start of this discussion, and since -- seemed to be insisting that the oil industry hasn't much financial interest in terms of the cost of oil or gas or (apparently) anything else.

IMHO, nothing is quite as simple as you insist. Government doesn't act in a vacuum. Corporate interests often do influence, and often do benefit from, war making. Taxpayers do usually pay the bills. Investors, big and small -- like people do in just about every other field of human endeavor I am aware of -- often do follow the leader like sheep to the slaughter.

And while you are big on criticism, and saying this and that shouldn't be, it sounds almost as if you are saying people shouldn't do these things because, well, people shouldn't do these things, well, 'cause it's not right. Okay. But since when does that kind of argument hold any sway over human behavior? I haven't heard much in the way of solutions -- unless you think locking away a bunch of folks for "crimes against humanity" is really a solution.

Personally, there are only a few things I can think of right now that might improve things.

One might be to get commercial bankers out of the speculation biz. To me, that seems to be one of the problems. When Phil Gramm got rid of much of the wall between commercial and investment banking, it seems to me, some of what we've seen since is the result -- and not just making risky variable rate mortgage loans to home-buyers, but deregulating things to the point of putting commercial banks in the biz of taking a lot of other extra risks.

What else? I don't know. Tighter regulations on how much corporations are allowed to influence and write their own regulatory legislation? Disallowing folks from constantly moving back and forth between corporate contractors and the government agencies that oversee and award their contracts? Public financing of political campaigns? Closer monitoring of the investment industry? Enforcement of anti-trust laws or some kind of limits on the accumulation of personal and/or corporate assets? Force corporations to dissolve upon the deaths of their founders? Force political parties to dissolve after every election?

What? What? How radical shall we get? If you have any ideas, any at all that don't involve hauling a bunch of people into court to be tried for crimes against humanity, I'm listening.

And as for blaming the blithering idiot in the White House, that's just fine by me. I blame him, too. Plenty. Let's just not pretend he is anything more than a tool, and a tool of ... what particular interests ... do you think ... ? (Any chance he might be a tool of some of the same interests that have been influencing US policy for several decades now?, let's see, y'know, like all those folks who do not profit in any way from higher oil and gas prices?, and, er, certainly don't profit in any other way from US war making? Or how about just a tool of the same ol' American people at large who, when economic times are shaky, almost always seem to vote their pocket books no matter what the potential ramifications may turn out to be?)

>> It was you, not I, who equated venture capitalists pulling their money out of the internet as being the equivalent of commodity trading

... which they are. These are the same people, the very same people. It's what they do for a living, pure and simple. And yes, it is that simple.

And no, I'm not saying it's all that simple. I'm trying to keep the length of the posts down to less than a chapter of Anna Karenina, so the essential mechanics are understandable. And the essential mechanics are that understandable when you boil them down this far, But if you want a full blown out discussion of eceonomics and current landscape, including footnotes and attributes all over the place, hey, let me know.

>> it sounds almost as if you are saying people shouldn't do these things because, well, people shouldn't do these things, well, 'cause it's not right.

You gonna seriously tell me it is? I mean, please, by this moral slipperiness, we can just say, "Hey, c'mon, that guy in North Korea is just doing his job! Aint hurting me any!" You seem to wish to ignore the larger effects of the actions taken sometimes by speculators... especially those right now who are running up prices of things that have now become essentials -- and they're doing it... well, as you say, because they can. And somehow, even though it's causing world wide havoc, it's "okay" because it's just, y'know, what they do.

>> If you have any ideas, any at all that don't involve hauling a bunch of people into court to be tried for crimes against humanity, I'm listening.

And why not that as an option? Let's not just sweep their actions under the rug and say, "Okay, whatever, move on." Solely in the name of greed, these people -- and I use the term lightly -- have caused incredible harm worldwide. Look at the news, Don, and see what's going on outside your safe little neighbourhood. Eight people died in riots in Africa over rice. Rice. Who's gonna take responsibility for that? Anyone? Or do we just ignore them because they dont mean anything to us personally?

Tell me, where is the line between this kind of no-holds-barred capitalism and dictatorial rule? I'm curious to see where you put it.

Okay. I give up. You make simplistic overstatements and over-generalizations, swear they are hard truths, consistently insult me by assuming I am ignorant and uncaring about what is going on in the world, consistently ignore most of the content of my posts, mis-characterize the obvious intent of some of my statements, insist things really are as simple as you say, but then say you're not saying it's all that simple.

Right. I got it now.

Meanwhile, your only solution -- or at least the only one you've offered so far -- is payback to an ill-defined they, who apparently includes and excludes whomever you say it does (but without any stated proof or any specificity that indicates you even know who any of they are), and does not include any "innocents" I may mention -- and apparently are not just reacting to the market and world events in an effort to protect and grow their assets and those of their clients, but actually conspire with one another to make one another unbelievably wealthy at the expense of everyone else and should instead, solely out of the goodness of their hearts, all conspire to avoid profiting from volatile market fluctuations of which, apparently, they are the sole cause.

Right. I got it now. If we lived in a world where there were various, distinct major players, each with their own assets, all of whom were simply reacting to what the other major players were doing in an effort to protect and grow their assets (and those of their clients), then this might not make a lot of sense. But since we live in this world where all these seemingly distinct players are all actually in cahoots with one another ... oh never mind ...

Honestly, I just didn't understand things. But I feel much better informed now.

Power to you. Good luck prosecuting these folks. I'll be looking forward to seeing how you get it done.

Quote - **>> "But "evil oil company executives" fit the current Accepted Template For Villainous Types"

Except that anyone who's researched this knows that the oil companies' profit margin has actually dropped in the last few years. If you want to blame anyone for this nonsensical situation, I can think of two places:

(1) oil speculators, who manipulate the price for profit on Wall Street

(2) the White House, whose little foray into Iraq destabilized the region so much that prices, by necessity, skyrocketed. Remember that in November.**

**Come November, Americans need to remember that the two greediest, most corrupt political machines that ever disgraced this planet are the Democrats and Republicans.  To vote for one or the other is to say   "I deserve a government that does not care for the people and only exists to make money for big business."  Americans need to realize that the politicians who are sending their children to die are receiving money from the companies who are profiting from the war and our continued involvement over there.  Only a full housecleaning, routing out all the vestiges of corruption that these two greedy, power hungry, criminal gangs have entrenched into all levels of government will free Americans and give them their government back.  A vote for ANYBODY OTHER THAN A DEMOCRAT OR A REPUBLICAN IS NEEDED THIS FALL.

That is exactly how bad this is.**

UVDan, I just LOVE your sig line. And by all that is holy, the US needs that kind of true patriots more than ever these days!

pakled, email your phone number, so the next time this machine takes a dive, I can talk to someone who actually thinks about what's being said, ok? UVDan, tell me which one you dislike the most, I'll vote for that one, and he/she will be certain to lose. I bat 1000% on that, including H. Ross Perot. (remember him?)

Quote - pakled, email your phone number, so the next time this machine takes a dive, I can talk to someone who actually thinks about what's being said, ok? UVDan, tell me which one you dislike the most, I'll vote for that one, and he/she will be certain to lose. I bat 1000% on that, including H. Ross Perot. (remember him?)

I hate both political parties equally, because they both hate the American people equally.

UVDan, it doesn't matter what party anyone does or does not vote for so long as so many US voters think the way to be a good citizen is to pay half-ass attention for the last couple of weeks before the election and then go home and forget it. Until a much larger percentage of Americans choose to stay engaged, stay attentive, stay involved, and stay politically active, nothing is going to change.

SeanMartin, I hope you will accept my sincerest apologies in regard to our recent discussion about the oil prices.

(I may be a bonehead sometimes, but at least I'm man enough to admit it.)

I was (maybe) a little bit right, but you were nearly 100% right.

Anyway, our discussion got me to thinking and so I researched it a bit, and it turns out Phil Gramm had something to do with this, too.

Apparently, he is the one that helped get the "Enron loophole" legislation that essentially legalized insider commodity speculation in, among other things, the oil market.

So it really is, largely, a small group of speculators doing this and profiting from it at everyone else's expense, just as you said.

So yeah, I'm with you. Let's put 'em on trial!

Apology accepted, friend.

And thank you.