Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=62342&Start=1&Sectionid=1&Form.Search=senjin

Plagiarism, in any form, is quite distressing. I noticed this image while surfing the galleries, and senjin's comment that he/she created the background in Bryce is what set me off. EXHIBIT A

Attached Link: http://www.leesgraphics.g2gm.com/bkgrnds.html

This background is part of a background pack that was created by my friend, who goes by the nick Ms Outlaw on renderosity. EXHIBIT B (has been scaled to match the previous message)

This is the background by Ms Outlaw dropped over senjin's gallery image with the transparency set at 50%. Any one of you can replicate this by using the two images above. I think this image should be removed from the gallery immediately. EXHIBIT C

The background was actually created by Ms Outlaw in Terragen and PSP. Its distressing when someone offers a package of backgrounds as a free download and someone else claims them as their own. Its what discourages many artists from creating items for the Free Stuff archives. Please do not plagiarize other's work or try to pass it off as your own. It is theft, plain and simple, and hurts the artist more than you could possibly understand senjin. Blackhearted

{This background is part of a background pack that was created by my friend, who goes by the nick Ms Outlaw on renderosity. } Is that background pack available for download or purchase? If so than the artist is only using it for the purpose it was intended for - as a background. Unless Paradox claimed to have created the backdrop or you can offer proof that Paradox has an ILLEGALLY OBTAINED copy of the background, there is no reason for the image to be removed.

Posting an image using a free background and not giving credit is not theft. Senjin claims in his comments to have created the image himself in Bryce 4. That is theft. Theres no grey area here at all.

Have you emailed or spoke to senjin , it could be an honest mistake, it appears they tried to credit everything, and dont you know how it is , trying to remember where everything came from , keeping it all organized. Were not all the best at keeping it all straight.

~Sighs~ I really did not want to create a war over this... I put a pack of four backgrounds in freestuff awhile ago. I removed it when it hit 632 downloads. It is still available on my HP http://www.leesgraphics.g2gm.com/bkgrnds.html Server problems is why I removed it. Anyway... I was happy to put back in for all the freebies I have recieved here. Wasn't much I know, but at least something. It was also a thrill for me the first time I saw one in an image... then I saw Sengin's I was smiling...up to the point where he says "background created in Bryce" If the background had not been mentioned at all I wouldn't have thought nothing of it... I do not expect people to list all their resources...I don't always. I then thought maybe I was crazy... somehow perhaps it was done in Bryce and "just happened" to mirror the image I made with Terragen and PSP... Right down to the ugly tree that I cursed myself for not removing before putting the pack together... This is his IM to me this morning. ((Instant Message from senjin: Hey I looked at your stuff and the backgroud do look really close. Are you looking over my shoulder at night when I am working.LOL Sorry if I made you mad with the look a like. (Sent 6/21 13:20))) I'm sorry... I really really hate this sort of thing. I loved the image he done... don't really want to see it removed... just remove "background with Bryce" and I will be happy...don't give me credit I'm fine with that. Just don't claim it.

Claiming otherones work as your work is NOT theft. It is a lie - but it's not theft ... also I don't like this acting too we should be carefully by choosing our words ... you might say it is "theft in mind" but real theft is something different ... and however - this belongs to complaint and debate ...

hmm - we'd crossposting MS Outlaw - lol. Now reading this I must say - uhmmm - that are some words ... Why does this person simply don't say the truth ?? That's not a good behaviour ... :o(

ahh....thats just sad :-( One of the many things you can expect is if you give something free , there'll always be someone to take advantage of it. Just be happy that there are people that do appreciate the nice things.

The artist does not say that he/she created the background, only that it was done in Bryce. It is a fair assumption, that it was done in bryce, as it looks very brycey. So, I'd not call it a lie or a theft, but a mistake and inconsiderate failure to mention who created the background, which was part of a free stuff pack which is most likely free of usage restrictions no? -WTB

William, I suggest you re-read the post by Ms Outlaw above, paying particular attention to the Instant Message, before you start creating hypothetical situations. Shlabber, I realise it was a cross-post and deleted my message asking why you were defending him right away. No biggie, I cross-post all the time, and have made quite a fool of myself doing it too :)

My Bad. I'd call it a lie. -WTB

well, I rarely say who has created a freebie in my pictures. I usually say something like this: tweaked poser figure (if I tweaked it) Free character that I downloaded from somewhere (if I didn't create the character) I never use other backgrounds except from my own photos or scans of my own photos, so I never say anything. As for props, well, I lump them all together and say all the props except for... are from free downloads. If I payed for something I try to remember to give credit but I feel that no matter which, selling or offering for free, the people who do this need to realize that they put this model out into the public domain. They cannot always expect everyone to say exactly what they want regarding where they got it. It's like anything out there in the public domain. Many individual things can come together to make up a bomb, but those things aren't really intentially being made specifically to do harm. it's a philosophical question. I don't believe that anyone is intentionally meaning to take credit. it's a combination of many things that goes into making a picture and sometimes that combination is enough for some people to feel that they are completely responsible for it. Blah, blah, blah....anyway. I do very much appreciate all the efforts of the model makers and texture makers. I hope one day to offer my own items to the community both for free and for fee... I show that appreciation by buying them and using them, or downloading them from freestuff if they are offered. I hope my models get used because for me that will be thanks enough. I can't expect that once they are in the public domain, that everyone will give me credit or that everyone will be responsible with the image. I can't take the thing away from someone who puts it into a violent, pornographic picture, even tho I would like to... I could go on and on... I think it's an interesting topic...and yes a good one for debate forum...

That's pretty bad. I agree it may not be theft, since the background was put into PD as a freebie. However, to give the impression that you greated the background is dishonest. To then IM the creator and claim it is somehow coincidence, that he really did create the identical background all on his own is a blatant lie! Even if you had some really profound psychic connection with each other that led both of you to create the same scene, the software used, (or claimed to have been used by senjin) was different and you could never have procuded the IDENTICAL image! senjin, you are extremely dishonorable.

I really do not see where it says that they themselves created the background. It says "Background created in Bryce" which it was. They just did'nt give credit for it. I've created a few free models and backgrounds and have had my share of downloads on them, and never received credit for them. I know it sucks, but thats why in the professional world you have copyrights, contracts etc. Was there a readme file stating that in order for it to be used, credit must be given? When something is given free, that usually means no strings attached. Free is just that, Free.I realize what you are saying with the instant message that was sent to you, but I've had this happen a couple of times myself. Someone Instant messaged me saying they could'nt download one of my models and to send them a copy. I did. Then they said that the file came garbled (first and last time that happened) and that they would just make it themself. Gee, really looked similar to mine.I always make sure to include a read me file, in case someone makes a buck off of it so there is no misunderstanding.But I would'nt worry about it, the public is smarter than they might think. Nice background though.BTW it might help next time to take a screenshot.

A screen shot of what? That background wasn't created in Bryce... I'm sorry, I don't want this to continue into a war. The guy or gal is obviously very talented... perhaps he made a bunch of backgrounds and somehow dumped mine in the same directory and forgot...I dunno... I was NOT looking for recognition for the background. I have a readme file with the download. It states it is free for personal use, I did ask for a small donation to paypal if anyone wanted to use it commercially... no biggy. Again. I am not worried about recieving recognition for it... Rather no comment be made on the background at all...rather than imply it was made in Bryce by him or anyone else. Think this thread should just fade. It's done, I'm sorry that it went this far.

A screenshot of the instant message.Better than a They said/They said.It really helps to clear up misunderstandings when there is indisputable proof. The only proof claiming that they said they did it themselves is someone else claiming they said that.Nothing on the original image comment claiming they did the background.

I still haven't deleted it. http://home.cablerocket.com/~outlaw/lee3d/message.jpg

Think this thread should just fade Oh wow. I have had threads that I got into, that, I would have prayed for the toothfairy to make them disappear. That was mostly because I opened my mouth too much. I hate it when that happnes. The IM makes me pretty much sway toward the conclusion that Senjin misrepresented the use of your background. I wonder why he/she felt the need to do that. Their character was nicely posed, dressed well, etc. I really don't like little stuff like this. It makes me think that this kind of stuff is contributing to give Poser artists just a bit of a Slim Shadey name.

Well, I have to say something again, can't shut me up around here these days, geez, when am I gonna get my own work done? Anyways, I did a little test. I actually put myself in the place of Ms. Outlaw here. And I gotta admit, it would bother me too somewhat, not about the pic being used, in fact, that would "flatter" me to no end, but because of the "subliminal insinuation" that the artist did it. I gave away a bunch of comic book stuff a while back and someone was kind enough to actually USE this as a part of their rendering, (see, I say kind), and I was flattered. They mentioned my name, and even said, "hey, I hope RadArt don't mind?, I certainly didn't ;-) Now, if this person had suggested nothing, again, it wouldn't have bothered me at all, I still would have been flattered, I gave that away, and someone was cool enough to use it for something like this, allright! BUT, if this person had made like it was something THEY did, like say they said, "comic book is actual poser work", I am sorry. but even though the artist don't SAY "they" did it, it sounds like they are SAYING they did. I believe MOST people would assume the artist is just relaying how this was done, by THEM, not "comic done in poser by someone else". If that had been the case scenario it be better to have said NOTHING at all than that. But remember, there IS a possibilty that this artist is not English fluent too, in that case they may just not realize how they came across, and also not everyone thinks the same ways neither. But that really should be no excuse. We do need to be careful how we portray ourselves and our work here, just like we need to think before we comment and rate.... Take care...

They still never publicy claimed that they did the background themselves. Only in a private message, that might have been just trying to get you steamed. Which it seems to have.

One more thing.... It be like me saying something in my own pic was done in 3DStudiomax, and that is all; that would kinda sound like "I" lay claim to having done that, no? If I say nothing, then cool, I don't lay claim, even if I say the pic is done in poser, I am not centering out that particular item and focusing on that suggesting I created that, just the image itself is done in poser. But if I say, this pic is done in poser and that figure is done in 3DStudiomax without mentioning who made it too, then that DOES sound like I made it! It does....

I never looked at the "gallery" image, maybe I should have, I was going by this thread...sorry....;-(

Ms Outlaw said:don't really want to see it removed... just remove "background with Bryce" and I will be happy...don't give me credit I'm fine with that. Just don't claim it. That sounds fair to me. And the comparisons by Blackhearted comvince me that it's Ms Outlaw's image. If senjin refuses or outright claims it is his work via bryce, I would personally step this up, not let it fade.

I meant "I personally would", as in "if it were me" - I didn't mean to sound like I was gonna take on this case for Ms Outlaw! sheepish grin

~G~ April... ya sure? All kidding aside, I went through sengin's gallery and he/she has some great stuff there... I dunno what happened here, I really don't. Perhaps he/she was really sleepy at the time and was fuzzy about where or how he got the background. Not here to make enemies with anyone... Will put it down to a mistake and leave it at that. ~s~ We love art... lets get back to it.

Damn! Is the Catfight over? But Y'all gotta agree. A confrontation afore taking this pubic would have been beter all round. Maybe had a short talk to get it straightened out in the first place and then take it out to the parking lot.If Y'all know what ah mean. BTW, I bet this has got alot of hits now.Nudge, nudge, wink, wink.Good idea.

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?Form.ShowMessage=297301

I honestly cant believe so many people are defending this guy. There is no room for debate here. He claimed that he made it in Bryce. "Background done in Bryce 4" as you all know is claiming that he did it. Sure, a lawyer could argue that technically its not, but how many images are posted in the gallery with "Rendered in Poser4, hair by Kozaburo, Background in Bryce". The IM is what makes it even worse. Rather than say "hey, sorry for the misunderstanding" his IM insinuated that Ms Outlaw had somehow copied him. "are YOU looking over MY shoulder at night when I am working?". Doesnt this infuriate anyone else here? I cant believe so many people have streamed to this guys defense, even though Ms Outlaw has provided a screenshot of the IM when youve doubted her side of the story. Do you think she made it in PSP? Put yourselves in her position for a moment. No, shes not looking for credits on every image. She told me that when she saw the image in the gallery she was flattered that someone had used her background in an image. But then that person claimed they made it, and IM'd her that indeed they made it and she must be copying them. Think of how much that hurt her. So keep creating hypothertical situations to defend this creep. "He may not speak english well". Senjin speaks english quite well. Read the thread above and there goes that theory. Some of you may remember this thread where he aggressively accuses TheWolfWithin for plagiarizing him by creating a playing card background. I find it ironic that after so actively posting that he had been plagiarized (apparently he owns the copyright on playing card decks with nude women on them) he plagiarizes someone elses work and insults them in private messages.

"Background done in Bryce 4" is very different from someone claiming they did the background. The big deal about it is someone is being accused of plagiarism.I think that this should have been tried to have been resolved privately to clear up any misunderstanding first.Send an instant message saying "what did you mean by that" or something along those lines. Instead, it was brought into the public forum and tried to stir up a attention getting lynch mob.Has anyone contacted this individual in order to clear this up? Where is this person now. Let them have their say and give them a chance to defend themselves in the forum and try to rectify the situation. This is starting to sound more and more like some pathetic attempt at an attention getting publicity stunt in order to get some hits.

NO, NO, YOUR KIDDING, IT IS NOT THE GUY THAT CLAIMED THE WHOLE IDEA OF NUDE PLAYING CARDS WAS HIS!!!!!! Yeah, get him in here, be intresting to hear him explain this!

Heh, your so funny Jim......hehehe ;-)

I have more reason's to admire Ms.Outlaw now - Talented, Gifted, Humble, and Educated with very nice manner's.