We're trying not to be heavy-handed, but we NEED to remind you guys that this forum isn't the C&D of old.  Debate is healthy, discussion is healthy, but when it's paired with passive-aggressive snide remarks, it can be biting.
Remember that there are people on the other side of the monitor, not just words on the screen.  So, please, when you're debating, keep the debate on topic, and not personal in any way.  Threads that get out of hand and personal WILL be locked.

Jeni
Poser Moderator.

Thank you very much Jen. It's a much needed reminder.

Stickies don't seem to be enough these days.

Just thought I'd bump this back up. The OT posts in here are beginning to get out of hand in some instances, and it needs to stop. {in reference to the latest locked threads}

As JenX stated, we don't want to become so heavy handed till no OT posts are allowed at all, but if posts/opinions can't be made without getting personal and insulting, then we'll have to rethink how far we'll let OT posts go in this forum.

Thanks for your understanding gang :)

~Jani

I think some people need a reminder of what every mother taught their children. "If you can't say something nice, Don't say anything at all!" I know the original of those two threads would have eventually faded away just as the one I started on DAZ did. People gave their well wishes and eventually it just dropped away. As any thread should if instigators don't show up to start something.

Maybe the moderation team should look into measures to be used for giving "Instigators" a time out.

well, I'll be here to lock the inflammatory  threads as fast as they can start them.

Quote - we NEED to remind you guys that this forum isn't the C&D of old. 

what does it mean "C&D of old"?
(english is not my mother tongue)
thanks!

C&D was a forum for discussion of off-topic subjects.  Later there was one called the Off topic forum, and that was followed by one called The Den.. They were all discontinued because the discussions kept getting too inflammatory.

Quote - well, I'll be here to lock the inflammatory  threads as fast as they can start them.

Might I suggest that "Inflamatory" posts be deleted from threads instead of immediately locking threads that otherwise would not be inflamatory? The thread about Sulu's upcoming wedding wasn't started to start a flame war, it was made that way by people who couldn't pass up the opportunity to oppress ideas that they didn't agree with.

Lost - please, no need for a memory hole. Idea oppression (even ideas and opinions you do not agree with) only occurs with deletion and redaction, not with open discussion. I see a lot of opinion that sometimes, I frankly think to be ignorant, hateful, and outright unintelligent. That said, I treasure their right to post just as much as I treasure my own.

One has the right to be wrong. It's how we all learn and grow, even if the education and growth won't be apparent for awhile.

/P

Quote - Lost - please, no need for a memory hole. Idea oppression (even ideas and opinions you do not agree with) only occurs with deletion and redaction, not with open discussion. I see a lot of opinion that sometimes, I frankly think to be ignorant, hateful, and outright unintelligent. That said, I treasure their right to post just as much as I treasure my own.

One has the right to be wrong. It's how we all learn and grow, even if the education and growth won't be apparent for awhile.

Well If it's the policy not to do so, I don't have a problem with that but I don't happen to agree that everyone has a right to an opinion if it causes disruptions to the operation of the site.  Nobody has a right to shout fire in a theatre in order to cause a panic. Likewise, nobody should just be allowed to post vitriolicly in a thread just to cause a flame war or locking of a thread they don't happen to agree with.

Quote -
Well If it's the policy not to do so, I don't have a problem with that but I don't happen to agree that everyone has a right to an opinion if it causes disruptions to the operation of the site.

How would a locked thread cause disruption? It slowly (or quickly, depending on traffic) drifts downward, never to be seen again. Move it to a flame-bucket thread (Hell, I  do) if you want to keep topics separate, or a thread that degenerated into something way off-topic. No need to pretend it never happened.

Quote - Nobody has a right to shout fire in a theatre in order to cause a panic. Likewise, nobody should just be allowed to post vitriolicly in a thread just to cause a flame war or locking of a thread they don't happen to agree with.

Err, opinion (good or bad) is nowhere near the equivalent of fraud or incitement to riot. Otherwise half the Media would be in jail right now.

You, the reader, get to decide whether to panic or not. Nobody can force you to feel an emotion or do something with mere words - only you have that power to decide for yourself. Never give that power to someone else.

/P

Ok, seriously, I didn't want this to be my first post after coming back from being blocked out by my ISP, but here goes.

The Poser forum is not the forum for arguments and debates.  We've tried having OT forums in the past, and they don't work.  If you're feeling the itch to debate, argue, raise hell, or just generally be  a thorn in someone's side, go somewhere else.  It's A. not fair to members who are here to learn to use a program and b. not fair to us moderators who can't afford to sit here all damn day and babysit threads because some people don't know when to walk away.

Regardless, I will be discussing this with the rest of the team later, and, to be honest, if it were up to me, all posts deemed to have the slightest attacking or jerkish undertone to them would be deleted and the poster warned...and you get 3 warnings before banning (check the TOS).

Jeni

Welcome back, Jen!

Well, you've naught to worry about from this quarter. Last post I'll bother with in the fora here unless compelled by business matters to do otherwise.

Heaven Forbid I should be banned for anything remotely honest or dissenting from the official party line. :/

/P

You know..you can be honest and/or "dissenting" without attacking or being a jerk.  And that's what the main theme of the OP is.  Have your opinion.  Just don't shove it down people's throats and be a jerk about it.  If you read a post that you don't agree with, whether on topic or off, you don't HAVE TO reply.  No one is holding a gun to your head.  Seriously, I promise.  You have the FULL CAPABILITY to just walk away from your keyboard and do something else.  That Spore Creature Creator is pretty awesome.  Lego Indiana Jones looks fun.  I hear rumors about this "outside" thing, and one day hope to see it (just kidding). 

This is not the place for "I"m going to argue this point down to the bone, whether you want to or not" kind of posts and/or threads.  I'm not saying everyone has to sit and hold hands and sing kum bah yah, but, really.  Let's use our grown-up heads, some common sense, and bite our internet tongues once in a while. 

Again, this is the Poser forum.  I'm all for OT posts that don't spiral quickly into "I can be a jerk faster than you can" threads.  But, if this keeps going on, we may rethink our policy on OT threads.

Quote - Again, this is the Poser forum.  I'm all for OT posts that don't spiral quickly into "I can be a jerk faster than you can" threads.  But, if this keeps going on, we may rethink our policy on OT threads.

Unfortunately without the posts being deleted and the offenders being warned. I still see this as a way that people who don't like OT threads can get what they want by disrupting said threads until they're removed. Too bad you can't do it the way you said you'd like to and delete incindiary posts and warn people to stop doing that.

Quote - C&D was a forum for discussion of off-topic subjects.  Later there was one called the Off topic forum, and that was followed by one called The Den.. They were all discontinued because the discussions kept getting too inflammatory.

Well...umm, not entirely. You were there, under a different name. I seem to remember you and at least one other now - Admin happily participating in the madness that was C&D, The Tavern, The OT Forum, and The Den.

If they got "too inflammatory" it was because this place was populated by arteests, people who tend to have strong opinions and get emotional about them.
It was actually never a problem until the Marketplace began making more money, then it was decided some of the forums invited that sort of "too inflammatory" type of posts by their very nature, which was deemed non-conducive to the primary objective, which was to have a happy happy place where lots of Poser products were sold to happy happy people.

Thus, in the belief that a nicer Renderosity would loosen up people's wallets, all those bad forums were "disappeared".
We called it "The Disneyfication". Remember that term and the frequent use of "disappeared"?
There was, indeed, alot of disappearing going on in those days, most notably those members who really made this place what it was to begin with, who simply left, rarely to return.

Well, just a little more accurate representation of what happened, for those who weren't around - I'm fairly sure any RO employee would be looked down upon harshly by the PTB were he to go into any detail that didn't  accurately reflect the... umm... 'official' viewpoint of the situation at the time.

Well, I've said it before, and I'll say it again. It's all that OT stuff which helps to bring some humanity into the "community", whether its inflammatory or not. I very much doubt it would hurt sales, and allowing that sort of thing would make the place seem considerably less sterile. And anyone who's been around the 'net for any amount of time knows even the most inflammatory threads die out eventually.
My opinion, but not my call, though.

But, anyway, this thread is sorta OT, if you think about it, and I probably ought not continue any further. ;-)

Hey, where did those recently locked threads go, the ones inspiring this particular OT thread? There's probably some good entertainment I missed out on and would like to see.

AFAIK the presence or absence of OT threads has never had an effect on sales.  look at daz for
another example of that.  however, I would prefer a community of users in this poser forum sharing
tips on how to use poser, and keep the lynch mob threads on the grudge sites, where they'll also
have no effect on sales.

Well last time I checked. I participate pretty much equally in helping newbies out in informative threads as well as OT community fun topics.

Quote - Well...umm, not entirely. You were there, under a different name. I seem to remember you and at least one other now - Admin happily participating in the madness that was C&D, The Tavern, The OT Forum, and The Den.

snickers I remember those days...my main job in the Tavern was to sit on the "Big Comfy Couch" ™ and throw peanuts at the patrons. {and later complain about the shells left behind.} :laugh:

Quote -

Well...umm, not entirely. You were there, under a different name. I seem to remember you and at least one other now - Admin happily participating in the madness that was C&D, The Tavern, The OT Forum, and The Den.

Yeah, and I remember how inflammatory it got, especially around the 2004 election. I remember that because I had just become a coordinator for the Den then, and I remember trying to keep the Bushites and the Kerryites from tearing into each other.

I was a mere Lurker in those days. I put more energy into playing DAoC than my own 3D stuff so I didn't post much.

Cyber Bullies Beware

Here is my contribution, comrades: To keep things clean and tidy and to abolish crime, end all wars and bring peace on earth we should: Never be allowed to voice an opinion other than the accepted mainstream and politically correct one (which should be furnished by the establishment). We should never --ever-- be sincere if our sincerity happens not to be compatible with the feelings and ideas offered by the establishment (and mainstream opinion). OT subjects should be banned, except perhaps for discussion about the weather and cooking recipes. We must work out a devise capable to detect the intentions (for we all know that intention can be as sinful as the act itself --if not more so) in order to catch the culprits before they trespass. Perpetrators should be gathered up by a specially created Internet Police and deported on a deserted island (preferably volcanic) for an indefinite period of time. All other measures taken are half measures and are getting us nowhere. I hope this helps... :)

My vote is on we all learn to discuss damn near anything without it turning into a flame war ;) 

Quote - Ok, seriously, I didn't want this to be my first post after coming back from being blocked out by my ISP, but here goes.

The Poser forum is not the forum for arguments and debates.  We've tried having OT forums in the past, and they don't work.  If you're feeling the itch to debate, argue, raise hell, or just generally be  a thorn in someone's side, go somewhere else.  It's A. not fair to members who are here to learn to use a program and b. not fair to us moderators who can't afford to sit here all damn day and babysit threads because some people don't know when to walk away.

Regardless, I will be discussing this with the rest of the team later, and, to be honest, if it were up to me, all posts deemed to have the slightest attacking or jerkish undertone to them would be deleted and the poster warned...and you get 3 warnings before banning (check the TOS).

Jeni

 
While it's your opinion the off topic forums didn't work, it's mine that they worked just fine.
I miss the old C&D. Some really good heated discussions there back in the day. It's unfortunate a few thin skinned individuals couldn't take it and had it shut down. Since you're going to discuss the deletion of off topic posts, might I suggest you rid the place of cat picture fests that spring up. Heck, this post isn't exactly on topic about Poser. :) 

Whats up Mike. Peng. Funny you go away for a couple years and what do you return to? The same arguments in the same threads. snicker

Ok, let me reiterate my point... One person's solitary viewpoint is not the viewpoint of all.  Point being?  You may see the debating of politics to be a way to get to know your fellow forumites, which is great, *until the insults* (veiled and obvious) *start flying*.  One guy may think that the thing he just said is super funny and catchy, while 10 people read it and see it as a biting insult.  The thing is, **this is not a debating forum, nor is it a political site**.  That's what people forget, and when we ask people to tone it down, we get accused of everything from favoritism and elitism to picking on someone.  Posts and threads start about how the community is gone here because you can't argue about the finer points of the McCain campaign in the Poser forum.  The thing about forum threads...they *are* a conversation.  To be completely honest, I hate reading/listening to conversations that I really don't want to be privvy to, have no input on, and don't really care about.  I read them because it's my job, and to maybe douse the flames before they get out of hands, should sparks fly.  There have been a LOT of threads in the past few months where people get more and more vocal about things, folk that haven't been vocal about said things in the past.  Like I've said before, we really DON'T want to ban OT discussions.  It breeds friendships which, believe it or not, sparks creativity and learning.  However, I'm not sure what it is that's so insulting about the cat pics.  Sure, they're not everyone's cup of tea.  Scroll down.  There's a difference between hurling actual verbal insults across the forii and posting a lolcat image that actually may encompass the poster's actual answer to a previous post.  It's honestly no different than me posting an image of my son with a cutesy caption at the bottom, like the attached image.  Everyone has a different way of posting/answering, etc.  For instance, I remember a loooooooooong time ago, before I became a mod, becoming publicly frustrated with the way Xenophonz used to respond to my questions and/or posts, and freaking out at him in my own not-very-subtle manner.  Looking back...you know, seriously, it wasn't that annoying.  It's just that I expected everyone cater to my ADD and condense their posts, while I still posted my mini-novels (case in point, this post.)

I can't believe there is even a discussion of this nature. It is a thing of self control of your emotions, We are talking about people here trying to learn things, giving tips. What is so dificult and wrong about saying, Well that is the way you do it, but I prefere to do it this way because. There is nothing left to discuss and go to war over, unless you just like to argue. Which case there are plenty of Political Debates on the Web. you will have a lot more fun there.
They like calling people names and insults.

When I first got onto the internet for the first time about 11 years ago. On one of these forms. I was reading some of the stuff, and it sounded like third graders that just learned how to cuss and wanted to let everyone know they could. There was nothing at all positive about it. I have more important thinks to do than listen to people who argure and insult. It is non constructive.

I haven't seen the post that was mentioned. I was out of commission with a computer virus that wouldn't let me turn on my computer for a week. But surely we have enought creative people here that disagree about how to do something, can come up with a better solution than start insulting someone. These are great forums. Live and learn.

This IS an Art site right? Art, be it graphical or musical in nature, is created by NOT controlling your emotions. By letting your emotions flow freely. Most art is created from turmoil and angst not happy,happy, joy, joy feelings in some disneyesque atmosphere. Don't get me wrong, I understand this site is here to sell things and free expression isn't on the agenda. Hasn't been for many moons. Just though it funny that after a prolonged absence the same arguments are being discussed. Admin wants to draw the reigns tighter and most posters are happy to oblige. snicker

Quote - Everyone has a different way of posting/answering, etc.  For instance, I remember a loooooooooong time ago, before I became a mod, becoming publicly frustrated with the way Xenophonz used to respond to my questions and/or posts, and freaking out at him in my own not-very-subtle manner.  Looking back...you know, seriously, it wasn't that annoying.  It's just that I expected everyone cater to my ADD and condense their posts, while I still posted my mini-novels (case in point, this post.)

Heh -- I was totally oblivious to having had such an effect, Jen!  It was strictly unintentional on my part, let me assure you.......

As for the central theme of this thread, I take the same approach to this as I do to all such:  it's Renderosity's site, so it's Renderosity's rules that apply here.  From my point of view: the matter is just that simple.  So.......if I'm in a mood to argue politics, then I'll go to places like Townhall to do it.  Places like that are set up specifically for the purpose of discussing politics.  In fact, I've been toying with the idea of starting my own blog over at Townhall -- but I'm not so sure that I'll have the amount of personal time which would be required to do adequate justice to such a blog.  But it might be fun to try.  Maybe.

Some people can handle the typical give-and-take of a heated debate without batting an eye in the process.  Some people are secure enough in their own skins not to feel personally insulted (and run off pestering the mods about it via IM) when a forum debate opponent starts in with the standardized name-calling, or with the usual tack of questioning the personal motives of their debating partner(s)......... (BTW - such tactics usually derive from being in the process of losing the discussion, when it's based purely upon things like reason & logic)  If you don't like the message -- then attack the messenger (commonly referred to as ad hominem -- sometimes it's subtly done, but usually it's not).  So what?  Actually, it's rather amusing to have near-total strangers hurl the accusation that you are harboring evil, vile intentions -- especially when those who are pointing jabbing finger(s) in your direction are people who you've never met at all in RL, and who've never known you beyond some glowing words on their monitor screen.

Stepping totally outside of any "official" position on my part, the mods here do an excellent job, IMO.  What's more, they do a job that frequently comes without the thanks from the community which their job actually deserves to have from us.............it's often completely thankless.  And the mods deserve better than that from us.  They make this forum work.

You'll see less of me in the 'heated' threads from this point forward.  Not because anyone's instructed me to keep out of them (they haven't) -- but frankly: because such hot-topic threads in the Poser forum are -- generally speaking -- a good way to waste of gobs of personal time.  Time which could be much better spent doing something productive.

So folks, IMO the mods deserve the support of the community.  Even when they do or when they say things that might happen to irritate you.  In no way, shape, or form are you personally belittled -- nor is your life in any way changed for the worse -- because a forum thread gets locked, or because a post gets deleted.  Speaking for myself (the only person who I can speak for) -- I have far more important things to occupy my time than losing sleep over something that is as.......ultimately useless........as whatever transpires in a forum argument. shrug.

If anyone wants to argue politics -- then maybe we can do it over at Townhall.  They invite it there -- that's the purpose of their existence.  By contrast, the purpose of this forum is to discuss a software program called Poser, and ancillary subjects pertaining thereto.  So, yeah -- the OT topics which they allow in here need to be of a relatively placid nature........frankly, people can get hot enough just arguing with each other about lighting techniques in Poser Pro -- with no debates about politics or personal faith even entering into the discussion..............

If we want to argue with each other over the things that Man as a race of thinking (?) beings has argued about since he first had a thought (things that he hasn't solved yet, in spite of thousands of years spent arguing & fighting about them): then there are specialized websites to pursue that type of big-league game-playing.  But be forewarned: there are some pretty smart people who hang around places like Townhall.  And they aren't affected by being called names, or by having their motives called into question............they aren't that insecure.

There are some pretty smart folks who hang around here, too.  A fair number of them, in fact.

I salute the mods.

"Heh -- I was totally oblivious to having had such an effect, Jen!  It was strictly unintentional on my part, let me assure you......."

snicker

"Some people can handle the typical give-and-take of a heated debate without batting an eye in the process.  Some people are secure enough in their own skins not to feel personally insulted (and run off pestering the mods about it via IM) when a forum debate opponent starts in with the standardized name-calling, or with the usual tack of questioning the personal motives of their debating partner(s)......... "

Most members of this site don't bother with the forums. Of those that do, most would have no problem with a wide open OT forum where one could speak ones mind. If they were offended by it they would simply stay out. However, a few thin skinned individuals would go running to admin screaming that some horrible poster was being mean to them and instead of telling those few to cowboy up or stay the hell out of there the forum would be closed.  Happened before, it would happen again.

"You'll see less of me in the 'heated' threads from this point forward.  Not because anyone's instructed me to keep out of them (they haven't) -- but frankly: because such hot-topic threads in the Poser forum are -- generally speaking -- a good way to waste of gobs of personal time.  Time which could be much better spent doing something productive."

"Heated threads"? This site hasn't seen a heated thread in many years. Those were banned long ago, along with anyone that refused to embrace the disneyfication.

"So folks, IMO the mods deserve the support of the community.  Even when they do or when they say things that might happen to irritate you.  In no way, shape, or form are you personally belittled -- nor is your life in any way changed for the worse -- because a forum thread gets locked, or because a post gets deleted."

The Mods are quite good at enforcing the TOS. As Ironbear would say, "hearding cats" .

Quote - some glowing words on their monitor screen.

**I want some of what you're having if your words are glowing. grin

Okay..meant no disrespect there. Just trying to lighten the mood some. XENOPHONZ made some good points. And I have no "official" position here. I just watch the mods here do a good job day in and day out and usually what they get in return in busted chops for doing that job.
**

Nobody should have to "Cowboy up" to participate in the forums. This isn't the old west.

Nope -- it's the New Internet.  And just like in real life itself: not everyone that you meet online will fall within a certain......comfort zone of co-identity: or even of co-sympathy.  Enforced politeness can be as artificial.....and as tasty.......as fake fruit flavoring poured out on top of plastic tofu.

If anyone wants to be comfortable with what they hear in the forums all of the time -- then they should seek out the types of websites with communities where everyone agrees with each other.

BTW - when such a place is found, then please let the rest of us know about it.  Outside of websites dedicated strictly to children or to quilting: comfort-zone paradises like that are difficult to find.  And that's because human nature doesn't change no matter where it goes to seek a paradise in this world.........other people never quite seem to want to fit into the molds that we cut out for them.  Political correctness is just one of the newer ways of trying to force people to fit into a mold.

Around here, the rules which govern participation on this site are to be found in the TOS.  And every other Poser-related website has their own sets of rules, too.  In spite of what some people claim, even the "open-ended" sites have rules of conduct: and sometimes they ban people for violating those rules, or for disrupting the website to the point where others can't, or don't want to, participate on the board.  Their websites: their rules.  Personally, I don't have a problem with that.  If I go to those websites, then I follow those websites' rules of conduct.

Members agree to be bound by the rules of a given website as a condition of signing up in the first place.  And I don't have a problem with that, either.

I do have a serious problem with some individuals attempts to force a forum's culture to fit into their own personal comfort zones: thus trying to 'rule the roost' via the agency of whining.  But hey........sometimes such semi-subtle manipulation -- with the help of the underlying dictatorial tenets of the current widely accepted culture of political correctness -- works.  Get on Oprah's show and cry about it: there are a lot of 'em that'll cry along in sympathy these days.

There's always the option to go somewhere else.  Perhaps Oprah's personal website has a forum...........

jeez, one month later and youse guys are still arguing about this?
how hard is it to be friendly?   :lol:

I have no problems whatsoever with "being friendly".  But at the same time I don't subscribe to the thinking which lies behind the words of that immortal social philosopher & well-known intellectual Rodney King -- "why can't we all just get along?".

"Being friendly" typically entails not expressing any solid opinions or any solid convictions out loud in a public way.  Because just as soon as someone expresses an opinion publicly: then someone else isn't going to like what they've said.  "Being friendly" usually suffers rapidly after that.

Express no opinions: and offend no one.

However: there is a time and place for fighting for ideals (and for ideas).  The Poser forum just isn't the place to do it.

You see, the basic problem is that everyone wants his/her own way.  And when that individual desire to always gaze into a mirror comes into conflict with the desires of others to do the same......then we have a problem.  So, there's a TOS in force to keep things to a dull roar.

Is it possible to disagree in a "friendly" manner?  Sure it is......the late Tony Snow was a master of the art.  But that didn't stop a comment on the LA Times website asking if Mr. Snow had been buried in his Nazi uniform...........

So -- friendly is as friendly does.  Or so I've heard.  It's certainly true that you tend to get what you give.  But even then: life isn't always fair.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EjF8TYcRiRw&feature=related

;)  I don't ask that anyone be friendly.  I do, however, ask people not to be jerks.  And, those two are not mutually inclusive ;)

Quote - ;)  I don't ask that anyone be friendly.  I do, however, ask people not to be jerks.  And, those two are not mutually inclusive ;)

True.    They're also not mutually exclusive, either -- but that's a totally different topic. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FBvSlF49uTQ&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WqKi_9p1zks&feature=related

Quote - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WqKi_9p1zks&feature=related

Wooo hooo~! My new theme song!

Quote - > Quote - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WqKi_9p1zks&feature=related

Wooo hooo~! My new theme song!

With the way that gas prices seem to be headed, it might become the theme song for all of us before long.............

Well I love my 50+MPG scooter! And at the low prices these things go for it would behoove a lot of us to use them as much as possible.

Well lookie here!  Some of the most interesting posters of days gone by.   But... but...  why are they are all wearing those fake glasses-nose-mustache things?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPjhakaK-yI&feature=related