For some reason these images are showing up as a black square in my browser.  

Are they black for everyone else? I don't know why they would be.

I see it fine with firefox.  Doing good work, here! I am waiting with baited breath for the release of this figure. Do it right and release it when ready. I'm excited!  Wheeeee, this looks great!

Hi phantom3D. I've been following your thread in critique forum, and your figure and the rigging is truly awesome! 
I remember seeing a female counter part as well. Is she going to be released too? If that's the case, again, awesome!
I also remember seeing your rigging applied to V4.  Is it a hard job? If you could share with us your rigging on v4, I'd very much appreciate it!
Thanks.

I will release the female too, don't know when.  V4 I rerigged using this hip. The hip grouping must be different.  I have found two ways to group the hip that this rigg works best. 1 a very large hip group from a bit above the knees almost to the bellybutton, with that group all the bends in the hip area share the same polygons and it sort of makes things elastic. the drawback is that every bend in the area must use falloff zones (especially hip) and they must be set very precisely the bends are not as sharply defined.. 2 A very small hip group just enough to separate the legs from the abdomen ect. this kind of set up allows for more precice bends  and you do not need to use falloff zones for the hip, also you can be more sloppy with the settings the drawbacks are that it's less organic not as elastic.

Another grouping that I thought worth mentioning, is to stop hip at the buttcrack and use a line in the cr2 to weld the two buttcheeks together.  I experimented with it and it showed promise but I dropped the idea and went on with the others, but it may actually turn out better, if anyone wants to experiment.

Thank you so much for sharing this rigging technique, phantom3D.
I'm going to try it myself.  I remember your v4's bending, and that looked amazingly natural!
I wish DAZ would ask you to do the rigging.
Anyway, Thank you again!

Your welcome. There's another idea that I have put together somewhere in my runtime, it goes like this, hip group consists of a few polys in the center of the model but does not actually connect to anything, but the thighs and the abdomen are welded in the cr2. never played with it much so don't know the possibilities of it but it's interesting. Of course with this set up you have to be carefull to not stretch the polys close to the welds to much because even though they are welded they will not share.

I'm working on a rigg that the whole bottom half of the model is actually one group, the problems with it so far are that you cannot use IK with it.

I forgott to mention that with the large hip group you cannot use both hips for the bending either jus the first one. Unless you reposition it basically turn it around from what is in the pic.

Hmm... very interesting.  Thank you, phantom3D, for your generosity. I really appreciate it.
Sounds like a lot of experiment went through your rigging lab...and it's very inspiring to say the least.   
 I mostly work on body morphs to correct many of the bending issues, or to compensate joints.
When I saw the  v4 image of yours, I was shocked how natural it came across. Maybe someone can post the link to that v4 image, and I think it's worth seeing it  again.

Different grouping for the hip area means completely separate morph project. But I think it's worth the effort.

Thanks,

Here's a link to V4 rerigg.    http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?thread_id=2734708&page=1

Body morphs are what I'm working on now for my figures.  I never realised how many morphs are included with a figure but I looked at all the morphs for David and there has to be hundreds! Man, thats alot of morphs, I probably will not get that many done, seems like that must have taken years to do that many morphs :)

Thank you for the link.  Oh man, that v4 looks incredible. She can do all the ballet, gymnastics, yoga poses with very natural bending.  It's actually real breathtaking for me.

 Yup! it takes time to do morphs, and DAZ figure has a ton of them. That's true.
I've been working on v4 for quite some time now, mainly to reshape her chest and  shoulders, because they look horribly unnatural.  And I'm adding body detailing morph as well.

I mainly work with female figure.
Since female figure usually don't come with prominent musculature to cover the body like male model does, it shows the flaw  and the lack of detail more easily.
So, I think it will be very interesting to work on your female model.

Thanks, phantom3D!

Glad you like the rigg. I've been trying to build one for V4 that will work with her groups as they are so she could keep all her morphs ect. I am getting close to one that works almost as well as that one. If I can do that I could just send it out with litle single poly peices  and people could just pop the rigg into V4 and load her morphs. The biggest obstacle is the hip group she has.

My female model Angie is a bit behind. I intend to make her as realistic as I can with all parts already in the model so no props for gens ect. Takes a few more poly's in those areas but I think the end result will be worth it.

It's good to know someone who makes morphs perhaps you might be willing to make some for Angie, when I get her ready?  You like a more realistic body form I take it? That's what I try for but often find myself stylizing too much.

cheers,

Mike

 Your new rigging for V4 sounds fantastic. I can't wait to see it.
Yes, as you guessed, I love more realistic looking figure.
And yes, I'd be totally happy to make morphs for Angie, and I hope to meet her soon.
So, let me know when she is ready!

The work you've done on these projects are truly awesome.

Thanks,
lam2

IMHO your figure looks 10 x better than M4. hope you get it finished to your satisfaction soon. i would love to have it in my runtime!!

took a team getting paid to make V4

why do we half to do like DAZ

I'll make a girl and a out fit and sell that.

can model the cloth in to the mesh no peak threw ever.

a A,B,C,D breast morphs.

a few textures.

but I have BodyPaint a 3D painter why would I make a flat map like V4's.

I don't need a flat map.

then I will make another girl that's totally deferent from the first girl

don't want no injs that's a little deferent.

Thank you 3anson, I will keep going.

RorrKonn,  I aplaud your work. It's a good thing to see you doing different things in modelling.

Getting my thoughts a cross on a form is not my strong point ever.

Even managed to get put on probation at CGTalk, not good.

I have a hard time thinking like Poser.

I will never get the need for V4's 60,000 polycount mesh.

well never get her rigs.

the people that make stuff for V4 I am impressed.

I would never make morphs for V4.

dynamics are seldom used.

have no idea what profit venders make.

probably never will.

All I can do is be me.

that is all any of us can do.

I feel like my mesh Diamond should have been done way back when and I fret over it more then I should.

but she will get finished eventually that will be fine.

I know what you mean, language is imperfect at best.

Poser and high poly models...............poser is a nightmare at times, a puzzle that seems to have no logic.  I fight with it constantly to get it to do what I want it to, and keep coming back for more.  High poly mesh is good in poser for morphs and because of the way poser divides, that's probably about it. Most other apps, high poly's bad. (Except ZBrush, another insane app)

Take your time on your models, take a break from it when you need to. I get dispondent myself ,often, seems I'll never be done with it. Think I'm going to get out and do some hunting, maybe a little skiing this winter, pull myself out of this constant obsession with 3D. After all there's a real world out there somewhere.

Most of the people (myself included) who do modeling in 3d, are problem solvers and when problems crop up in 3d (often), we have trouble letting it go.  I think the obsession is trying to get it to go as we feel it should, instead of some arcane way that the app takes it in, that makes absolutely no sense to us.

We want to beat it, and kick it to go where we want it to go and BE what we want it to be. So we obsess. If we didn't, we'd NEVER get it to work right! I'm more in favor of calling it "perseverance" than obsessiveness. I have enough defects. Persistence is a favorable survival stratagem. :laugh:

hunting,skiing sounds good to me, lets go :)

obsession,persistence ah defiantly we are persistence, well then there's that hot brunet ;)

the one problem I can not solve is how to make a 3D movie on a real real real low where talking spare change budget.

if I could solve that problem I'd have it made.

I don't have any experience with animation.  There are probably plenty of free animation apps though. Miss Nancy knows quite a bit about animation and a few others around here. You could Google it and see what comes up under 3D animation. Then all you'd have to do is put together your AVI scenes and splice them into a movie.  I'm prety sure you can create most of it in poser and maybe render in a better render engine. I think it would just take alot of time. What about Truespace? doesn't it have a decent render engine?

Quote: "Glad you like the rigg. I've been trying to build one for V4 that will work with her groups as they are so she could keep all her morphs ect. I am getting close to one that works almost as well as that one. If I can do that I could just send it out with litle single poly peices  and people could just pop the rigg into V4 and load her morphs. The biggest obstacle is the hip group she has."

I would love to have this V4 even without morphs but I wonder if people could restore the morphs for personal use using Dimension3D's Clothes Morphs. I have used it to move morphs between standard and reduced resolution figures... I wonder if it can work across grouping differences? I'll have to try tonight. An other possible solution is to export the morphed standard V4 and then apply the UV from your figure for the grouping and then import the single re-grouped .obj as a FBM with one of the python scripts around.

Well here's the phantom shoulder on Brad:
Arms up:.........You can see how the shoulders dont get flattened and you can see the effects of the body handles in the pectorials. I can actually get the pecs to pull up and in and flatten slightly. Also the lats do not get bulged out and the mesh deforms evenly no bad stretch spots.  I put in a small JCM at the top of the shoulder. I am using a different setup for the shoulder joint than anything in any of the models out there.

Anyone want to see the rigg?

trueSpace is free now ?

have not been on there site in a long time.

tS was my first 3D app. tS and tS'ers showed me how to 3D :)

I like all the free software very kool .for use poor boys.

takes a monumental lot to make movies much less 3D movies.

I can't get a single mesh finished would never get a movie finished.

Going to see if I can't finish a novel.

Think Renderosity will sell a html novel ?

Killer mesh Phantom 3D

If I was DAZ I would hire you.

Rig views would be very kool :)

Daz would never hire me I give away all my secrets for free. LOL.

This pic shows how the rig brings the chest together in the front when the shoulders are forward and brings the lats and back, back and together when the shoulders are back.

tS  just never seemed to get it.

Lets see if they can get it now.

Wonder that DAZ Didn't buy tS.

Soon D / S will rule and Poser will fade away like so many of the back in the day app's.

For the 1000 reasons why I won't deal with a 60,000 polycount mesh, it's just ridicules to me.

When the 17k 16,678 polycount V4 would do just as well, you could smooth,Sub D her if you wanted.

Poser needs a polygon reduction tool.a long with the other 500 tools that the FREE app's have ,LOL.

We live in the way before the stone age of 3D,talk about timing.

At least you will go down in history as getting a poser mesh to bend like a human and not a metal pipe.

With in 3 months if not 3 days after you release your mesh.

DAZ will release updates for there meshes rigs.

Way back when tS and AM would have a lot of extra bones in a rig to get them to 1/2 bend like a human.

We never got close to yours.

Will your mesh bend that good in Max & D / S ?

Diamonds mesh is all but done,polycount 15,000 give or take a few.

She renders good in Poser with smooth on.

Make a flat map for her.

Thought about selling her as a merchant resource.

What do you think ?

Quote - Diamonds mesh is all but done,polycount 15,000 give or take a few.

She renders good in Poser with smooth on.

Make a flat map for her.

Thought about selling her as a merchant resource.

What do you think ?

I think that's a good idea, low poly meshes are always needed even in poser, but something in that range can be used in many different apps. Ever check out the models at turbo squid? That's another option for good low poly meshes, you could sell it for Max or Lightwave or any of the other top end apps.  I remember your Diamond and it was good work. Keep up the work, things will turn out good for you.

Yes models can actually bend better in apps like 3ds Max, I had brad rigged for Max at one time I may go back and do it again.  Right now I am working on a completely new rigg for the hip, since I gave my old one away I figure I'll make a better one.  :} LOL. This time he will be able to do the splits and look normal:)  It's crazy but I'm really starting to get the hang of this Poser rigging stuff.  You really can make them do anything you want them to, you just have to build it like a machine, and think about the mechanics of it,  I'm pretty excited cause i have been kicking this idea for a new better rigg around in my head for awhile and started building it last night and so far it kicks ass on my last one. A hugely muscled model that can do the splits like a gymnast and look human doing it, Man this ones going to surprise people! No big dents in the side of the hip, nothin.

Cheers,

Better then better rigs, Killer.

Yes I know Turbo Squid and the chaos of it all.

Mike.
One word for you:

WANT!

Seriously, I'm ready to throw M4 to rabid dogs.

M4 has problems? Daz will probably work them out, or someone else will.

I have a better model than Brad, .......Brad2 I redid all his topology and got him down to 14,000 poly's (not counting gens, teeth ect.) A bran new rigg better than ever. And UV's that will fit all 4 models (with the lips in the head and not disconnected). And the musculature is edge looped early in the mesh so that even at 14000 poly's you still get pretty good morphs. I was  rereading all the comments in the critique forum and just decided I should do it over to try to address the flaws people pointed out in the thread. And his eyeashes fit and are not too big. LOL. It went really fast this time, only took me a couple days to redo the whole thing.

Mike, stop TEASING ME!!

Gief!

Let some of us play with him, then. Lo-poly or high I want to see with my own eyes, and play with him  on my own machine. You have a probable release date? You tell me "Soon" and people will come to your house and it'll not be pretty! :lol: :laugh: People know DAZ and expect that. Say something different.

Silke: I'm really not trying to be a tease, it probably sems like it. this model though, must be above reproach if there is to be any chance at all for any success. It must be good enough to prove detractors, naysayers and general killjoys as biased liars. If it's not at least that astonishingly good, it's dead befor it even gets started. I don't have the Daz name, haven't been here for years, don't belong to any groups or cliques, and have very few friends ( I consider you one) Those are all things you need for success with any product here. The only thing I can try to do is to make something so much better that it's undeniable.  That's the strategy anyway.:)

JOELGLAINE: I don't have a release date, don't know and I won't say soon. I started posting about these models way too soon which was a mistake, made in ignorance of how things work in forums in general. I keep working and the work gets done apace You will get to play with it soon enough. I do appreciate the interest.  I should at least get enough done for it to be close to something finished.

blows a raspberry at you

I know I know!
It's not "Soon".
It's.... drumroll.... EVENTUALLY!

lol sorry.

I know Mike, I'm just looking at what you do and it looks truly good. :)

Do you have any pictures of Brad2?

Nothing one does in mortality is above reproach.  Look at the work you've done and when it good enough to release, release it. It'll never be perfect.  Nothing ever is. Just judge with eyes unclouded by your own shadows. :laugh: It IS that simple.

Some really nice muscle crunching on that shoulder rig. He's feelin' the burn!!

Hmm, is there some secret Poser rule that says the parent bone for each figure must be called 'hip'? Because I had very strange things happen when I tried your second hip trick. Could you maybe post a screen shot of the hierarchy editor to show how things are related to each other in your setup, and how they are named?

Another thing I tried today is make the abdomen the base instead of the hip. The hip (or pelvis) and chest would then move relatively to it. It looked pretty useful at first glance, but since Poser started to act weird when I tried to re-load the cr2 with that setup, I haven't played around with it much yet.

Quote - Hmm, is there some secret Poser rule that says the parent bone for each figure must be called 'hip'? Because I had very strange things happen when I tried your second hip trick. Could you maybe post a screen shot of the hierarchy editor to show how things are related to each other in your setup, and how they are named?

Another thing I tried today is make the abdomen the base instead of the hip. The hip (or pelvis) and chest would then move relatively to it. It looked pretty useful at first glance, but since Poser started to act weird when I tried to re-load the cr2 with that setup, I haven't played around with it much yet.

I'm sorry, but I know next to nothing about the render settings, so how do you get it to render the hierarchy editor into the scene? Hip can be called anything you want as long as the internal name is the same as the grouping name.

Hierachy Editor is a window in the Poser interface that shows how things are parented... I think the person was hoping for a screen capture of that.

momodot: yes that's what I mean how do you get a screen capture of all that? Some day I'm gonna have to get out of the setup room and start learning the rest of poser. LOL I have the hierarchy editor up ect but don't know how to get a picture of it.

Quote - momodot: yes that's what I mean how do you get a screen capture of all that? Some day I'm gonna have to get out of the setup room and start learning the rest of poser. LOL I have the hierarchy editor up ect but don't know how to get a picture of it.

Look for the PRINT SCRN/SysRq in the upper right hand corner of your keyboard. Press on it once. Then open your 2D program (like Paintshop Pro or Photoshop). Right click and paste as a new image. This will give you a screen capture of exactly what's on your monitor.

Quote -
I'm sorry, but I know next to nothing about the render settings, so how do you get it to render the hierarchy editor into the scene? Hip can be called anything you want as long as the internal name is the same as the grouping name.

If you press the 'Print Screen' (or 'PRTSC') key when the hierarchy editor is visible, that should put a screen shot into the clipboard, which you can later paste into an image program. But don't worry, we can communicate via text.

If I understand correctly, your modified hierarchy would look something like this:

Second hip
  Hip
    Abdomen
      Chest
        Neck
          Head
            ...
        Left Collar
          Left Shoulder
            ...
        Right Collar
          Right Shoulder
            ...
    Left Thigh
      Left Shin
        ...
    Right Thigh
      Right Shin
        ...

My alternative suggestion to make the hip bendable (which will probably not work, but I'd like to understand why):

Abdomen
  Hip
    Left Thigh
      Left Shin
        ...
    Right Thigh
      Right Shin
        ...
  Chest
    Neck
      Head
        ...
    Left Collar
      Left Shoulder
        ...
    Right Collar
      Right Shoulder
        ...

It has a nice top-bottom symmetry to it, too.

Yes that's pretty much how the editor reads, except for the foot then toe after shin.   I wouldn't give up on your alternative, If I remember right when I tried that it jacknifes the figure, raises the bottom half while lowering the top half. I'm not sure if there is not a way around that though.

When you say poser is doing strange things, what do you mean? Any time I rebuild the hip or reparent it to a new bone I often have to rebuild the IK, also I often loose the parenting of the foot to the shin and have to reparent it. is that what you mean?

Quote - When you say poser is doing strange things, what do you mean? Any time I rebuild the hip or reparent it to a new bone I often have to rebuild the IK, also I often loose the parenting of the foot to the shin and have to reparent it. is that what you mean?

Sorry, I forgot to say. Basically, I saved as a new cr2, then tried to load it back into Poser and the whole figure was invisible. I could only see the hair and pearls.

Maybe it was some sporadic bug. I'll try again and let you know. I didn't see the jackknife effect with the abdomen as the base, but when I tried your setup with the second hip bone, Poser ignored my spherical fall-off zones and angles for the hip movements.

I think I'll have a go with the new rigging system for D/S at some point, and see if that behaves more predictable.

Thanks, SSAfam1 Never knew how to do that.  excellent!