Quote -
And we wonder why young people today have such a unrealistic body view and expectations.

That's called America's Next Top Model. Don't watch it myself cause frankly, I think they're all too skinny and none of them are that attractive to me.

There are indeed "statistical averages", otherwise we all would have to wear custom tailored clothes.

But yes, the "blank canvas" concept we see promoted in Poserdom simply does not work if you want true realism.
You can't simply mix and match morphs to "dial a human" and expect realistic results.
There are rules, and some of them are very subtle.
Even the best real world artists work with live models, and we expect hobbyists to turn a stylized Barbie doll into a real human with just a few dial spins ?

So the best way to achive a convincing result is to slavishly copy an actual human without "adding" or "sanitizing" things here and there.
Forget about "artistic vision" and simply concentrate on the craft.
Just copy the shape you see, that's all.
And don't eyeball, Use a photo reference and stick to it.
Yes, it's boring, but it's the only way to get a solid foundation.

Even if the shape chosen is not everybody's dream woman, most people will at least subconsciously notice the "realness" over a figure that was build by a committee.

This was done for MIKI, and that's why she is such a convincing figure.
Because every little detail is "right".
(Except for the fact that she is quite tall (!) for a japanese woman because her body was sculpted after 5'5" (1,65m) czech model Aneta Keys.Lol.)

She failed for other reasons, but the sculpting and her ecpression morphs blew everything out of the water DAZ had ever produced. (And still does)

Quote - There are indeed "statistical averages", otherwise we all would have to wear custom tailored clothes.

Not really, clothes do not conform to the body, or the material is designed to be loose fitting or stretches (or a combination of both)

Ask any woman about getting a bra to actually fit right even with all the adjustable bands, straps, cups, etc... and most will tell you that is like finding a perfect man... only in dreams and fairytales!

Quote -
So the best way to achive a convincing result is to slavishly copy an actual human without "adding" or "sanitizing" things here and there.

Personally, I would like to see this, if only at as a test. This also would be the best way to determine the best way to design a mesh for rigging, best way to texture, etc... It could lead to improvement of all figure designing and development.

I don't think Ryan and Alyson are bad figures - they're just not as developed as the poser community would have wanted - deadlines or not.  Frankly, I think it would have been better to tweak and update some of the previous figures, i.e. Jessi and James G3, rather than to make new figures from scratch.  

But it's not just the figures.  There's not a lot of dynamic clothing or hair included to go along with these Ryan and Alyson.  The included textures are not photorealistic.  So while it's possible for very good artists to make these figures look good, doesn't that defeat the point of Poser in making quality 3D accessible to everyone?

Quote - No one claimed Alyson was your average woman (if her breasts are higher, does that mean she is above average!)

My point is that Poser has developed a whole string of characters that are "unaverage" in the same way. If you're going for variety, as is ostensibly the case, then have variety, not something unusual in life reproduced figure after figure.

Well darn, I feel bad that the Alyson/Ryan developer is so hard hit by the reaction to these figures in the forums. Some one pointed out in another thread that the people who complain on the forums make up a very small percentage of the actual customer base. I suppose that is scant consolation seeing that people criticize much more voluminously than they praise. I don’t recall any "human" figure designed specifically for Poser that wasn’t received with far more fault finding than compliments, even the free ones. In this, the designer of the Alyson and Ryan figures stands in renowned company.

Poser isn't a "paint by numbers" product. It requires some creativity from its users. A lot of people consider any new content a challenge to their abilities and imagination, but to see how well people really like something one would probably need to look in the galleries. Also, some (well, a lot) of the post release developement of a figure is accomplished by the Poser community, often in the forums as people share ideas. Even the negative comments can be helpful.

Poser 8 comes with legacy content as well as the new content including Alyson and Ryan. I have always considered Poser content as value added items so that customers would have something to work with right out of the box. There are many free items out their for those who want to look, and of course, many of us have very full runtimes collected over several versions of Poser. There are already some new things for Alyson and Ryan offered at Content Paradise. Their versatility will be enhanced as content providers get to work.

LMK

This happens every release, when people first see the new figures they rip them to shreds then people start making stuff for them & "they're not so bad really"

 I agree that creativity from the users is partially key here.  There are plenty of bad images produced with a high end figure like V4.  But I don't think the users or the figure maker should be blamed here.  If SM had listened to what users wanted and given the modeler enough time to develop the figures at a competitive and innovative level.  Unfortunately that didn't happen and what has occurred in the forums is the result of that.

Service releases are provided for glitches in the software.  Perhaps some the figures could be updated as well.

I believe there have been content updates in the past.

LMK

If you read everything I've said about Alyson, I doubt you'd respond that way. There are particular things to critique... and deservedly so. It's a product, after all.

And there are things to praise too. As I've said elsewhere, the amount of morphs available are amazing.

Iit is something new, something different, something strange.
But whaw.
A very usefull figure, and a zillion morph possibilities included; The only limit is your imagination.
And sometimes one has to think outside of the box, and look around a bit.

Like, for the breasts?
You have the FBM, and collars with all their morphs to work on the breasts, but also;
lBreast, and rBreast, selectable from the Body Parts menue.
They also have x, y, z, up-down, and side-side morphs. Ahaaaaa. . . . . . 

Again, a pic, of the model I am working on.

just standard morphs, that are all included.
Only thing I added was a morph to lower the breasts, and . . . . . .

If I can makte those with a free proggie like anim8or, anyone can do it.

And, I scaled the arms a bit, and downsized the waist, but that is all part of the game.

It is like the "MAKE ART" button., "Create LIGHT" button, "Create TEXTURE" button.

PS, do not complain for the brick ball. Thas was just an IDL test.
Click for full size.

And I still have to start on the face. But initial testing was very promessing.

Very, very satisfied. And oh, BTW, this is my favorite, the LO res Version.
Thanks SM, good Job.

 I think one of the things that puts people off when they load the new figures (which BTW I like A LOT!) is that hey look so royally PISSED OFF!

I mean.. look at Vilters' pic. As nice and realistic (and - YAY - NOT-supermodelish!) as the body is.. the sour expression does nothing good for the character. Yes it can be morphed, and there's a LOT of very nice morphs included - but.. it would have made a big difference if she had loaded, out of the box with a slight smile instead of a scowl. People are hardcoded to react negatively towards angry-looking foreigners. And in that respect, virtual people are no different. A smile OTOH goes a long way, both IRL and in the virtual one. I'm certain I'm not the only one who automatically smiles back if I turn the smile dial on a character. Hardcoded reaction again.

 You could always make a custom Alyson to load. Then you'd never have to load the default Alyson ever again.

I rather like BB's take on the  subject.  He described functional changes to a software product that could be described as "it works" or "it doesn't work". Rather digital.  He went on to describe changes that describe a range of degrees.  His example of the chin being "too big" or too small" seems to nicely describe the analog nature of this sort of thing.

When I was a kid I found myself up on the roof adjusting our TV antenna for "best" reception. If it were only a simple matter of "we have a picture" or "nothing", it would have been a cake walk. My dad would shout commands out the window and I'd adjust for a "better or "worse" result. Obviously the day stuck in my mind...

Applying this to the new P8 figures, I would be very pleased to see morphs included that allow me to adjust the proportions of the meshes according to real world examples. BOATLOADS of morphs.

Example: Chest morph Cylindrical/Oblong (some people really have a pipe for an upper body, others seem quite squashed)

I could care less about how the boxed figure looks at outset. I'm much happier having the capability of morphing my objects to the shape I require. I like characters that have very large amounts of broadly adjustable parameters. Don't worry, I can adjust them myself. I'll not be asking a dev to crawl around on my roof.

This is ideal for a developer because the user public might just find that it is capable of asking for something that the developer is able to deliver. Functionality on a Yes/No basis.  Hopefully lots of it.

I guess that I'm a true fossil, in that I still find both Posette and Dork to be the ideal figures. -especially my remapped variations of them.  No matter what you DO to the mesh, or HOW you morph it, in the final analysis, it's the TEXTURE that makes the figure, and nothing else.
DPH

There are now two texture/morph packages on Content Paradise. And they are reasonably priced. There were also some shirts for Alyson.

I agree with Believable3D that any product should be open to fair critique, and I doubt that would distress the developer. To me the Alyson and Ryan figures seem to have short arms, small hands, and large heads. These are things that are hard to change when morphs to lengthen arms and size heads and hands are not included.

The "stock" appearance of the face is fairly easy to change. I found a lot of variety in the morphs, but the expressions look a little like those in Japanese cartoons. I am sure more morphs will become available to add to the variety.

LMK

"To me the Alyson and Ryan figures seem to have short arms, small hands, and large heads. These are things that are hard to change when morphs to lengthen arms and size heads and hands are not included."

Don't the scale dials on this figure work?  Or does she/he not have any?
DPH

Alyson  has those narrow,  but  tall,  hips  like Miki.

what  I mean  is  there is a weird flat plane ( along X) from the top of her hip  bone down  to  the wide part of the thigh

NOT a fave of mine.

a lot of work has to go into  getting around that first,   before I would be happy starting in on the figure

I'm  gonna keep  an open mind  and keep  my eye on  some more Alyson  renders -

dphoadley:

Most of the newer figures (G2, DAZ after M3/V3) do not scale well. Using the scale dails (which are often hidden) can break the mesh or ruin joint bends.

From D3 onward scaling DAZ figures hands breaks the fingers. The newer Characters from there have sizing moprhs for the hands and head. A lot of figures have sizing morphs for leg length, and for the neck ( though all of the neck lengtheing morphs I have tried break the mesh), but none of the newer commercial figures have morphs to lengthen the arms.

As far as scaling is concerned, the older figures did it better. The new rigging features of Poser 8 may allow some knowledgeable person to fix these problems. Time will tell.

LMK

1. Open cr2 with cr2-editor
2. Seek 2nd instance of "actor rHand:1"
3. Open "channels"
4. Rename the four hand scale channels from "scale-whatever" to "propagatingScale - whatever"
5. Do the same for the other hand.
6. Resafe cr2.

Enjoy your new scaleable hands.

But generally speaking, scaling (or "morphforming") is BAD and should be avoided as it invariably distorts the joints and messes up conforming clothes.

JP:

Thank you, thank you, thank you. I will study this and try it out.

LMK

Not to be flippant with people's serious relevant work and observations, but I believe it's time for a joke I heard (on a compositor's forum) that seems to provide levity and illumination on this thread:

Of course, Relaxing back and looking at white, puffy clouds slowly moving across the blue, blue sky is conducive to daydreams, reflections and thoughts.  What goes through the mind of a compositor, on such occasions?
That's easy; they're thinking:  "Man, does that look fake!".

@ mobelgod

You  make a very  good argument.

However -
 there are some "just off the factory shelf" problems that may exist  that  you  cannot get around.

The reason  I don't use V4 is the crazy  high armpit crease..... and the donut ass result of bending her factory ass.
There is no simple morphing that a beginner-to-intermediate artist can  do  which  will fix  that  particular ugliness without causing problems when  you move the joints.

Also, SM  wants to  SELL product ..... and the figures  that come with new releases are obviously big selling points - and to kind of agree and disagree (at the same time) with Trekkkie,
an  ATTRACTIVE  figure  is going to  SELL. when  you load the figure and say  WOW! hot figure!  that is a good thing.
I am not saying the figures  should look  like a perfect playboy  model or runway model,  I am saying there is some degree of objectivity  that  all would agree looks "good"

My favorite figure is  Sydney from  P7. off the shelf she looks like a real  girl. her body is very  pretty, it is not very 'unique" in one way or another- but it looks damn nice. there is not much  you would say  is crazy out of whack  with her... and she is "tabula rasa" enough to  do  a lot of things to- easily.
She does have big bony hands and fingers  and that  is one drawback  that  I hear A LOT of people bring up - and I think it is reasonable to  say - it would be nice if figures came off the shelf  inside some margin of looking attractive.

 Well as I have said earlier, I like the new characters a lot. And I don't think they look stylished at all - actually they're the most average looking Poser figures yet IMO. 

And they DO come with a boatload of morphs to change a lot of features, includling a certain male bodypart which have morphs other companies can learn a lot from.

This is Ryan, in the Marcus variation. I did morph his face myself, but only with the included morphs. I think he looks pretty good...

 Kind of reminds me of the dude from Sliders. Well, at least the face does.

I am not sure I will ever load a male figure into  Poser.

I have not to this point.

To each  his/ her own

LOL !

You need a guy who looks like you. Maybe David or Rikishi. So you can be in the scene yourself.

And it's nice to have a big muscly Freak to rough up your girlies.

trekkiegirl.

i like your render. and i like how you used the morphs.

I totallty agree. Great pose, and spendid job on the morphing.
Even the backwark body bending, and toso twist.
Great work .
And YES, the new figures are GOOD.

i think that is a great looking sample from Trekkie-
TG are you saying that this is the Ryan figure-  with an included morph set called "marcus" applied?
and your own work on the face?

sorry i am  just getting back to  Poser in the past week or so- and I have missed a lot about P8  and I want to catch up on the figures.
if this is one of the new figures  and its included body morphs  it is pretty great- but I wont  be working with the male body any time soon.
I will leave penis manipulation to those who can do it with more fervor.

Quote -  Kind of reminds me of the dude from Sliders. Well, at least the face does.

The first question that popped in my mind when I read this was.. "And the rest does not?" then...

"And when did you see the rest to know?"

:lol:

*"You need a guy who looks like you. Maybe David or Rikishi. So you can be in the scene yourself.

And it's nice to have a big muscly Freak to rough up your girlies."

*I love that post so much, TZORG, that I am printing it and framing it.

Re scaling: I scaled the ridiculously long default neck down without any apparent problems.

Quote - Still no postwork, just good rigging.

Stunning! That's the realism I'd like to see in figures in all the poser community figures. 

BTW your leg rigging rocks to get that high kick. I love high kick action poses in action sequences and that figure has the right stuff for that. Looks positively real!  ^_____^

Edit.
Hmmmm..... It seems this forum doesn't carry over the images with the quotes so to clearify things I'm talking about JoePublic's awesome figure. Joe you rock!

Quote - i think that is a great looking sample from Trekkie-
TG are you saying that this is the Ryan figure-  with an included morph set called "marcus" applied?
and your own work on the face?

The Poser 8 guy, Ryan, comes with three alternate personalities, Marcus, who's a black guy, Tomo, who's asian and Diego who's latin american or something. They come with each their preset face morpha nd texture. And I just turned the dials further from the Marcus default. So it's my morph and not. As in, it's not a custom morph, just a dial spin job :) Mostly to show what the potential of these characters is ^_^

And welcome back! Still trying to get used to your new avatar ^_^I myself has resurfaced recently after a very long Poser hiatus. But since Poser 8 was too good an opportunity to miss.. I'm back! L

Quote - > Quote -  Kind of reminds me of the dude from Sliders. Well, at least the face does.

The first question that popped in my mind when I read this was.. "And the rest does not?" then...

"And when did you see the rest to know?"

:lol:

Well, I haven't. That's the whole point.  :biggrin:

Thanks, 3Dream! That's a very nice looking morph. Huge improvement of the mouth... and generally everything.

Nice morph there 3Dream!!  You have a nice smile too in your avatar!

TG:
*And welcome back! Still trying to get used to your new avatar ^_^I myself has resurfaced recently after a very long Poser hiatus. But since Poser 8 was too good an opportunity to miss.. I'm back! L

.......Nice to  see you  again,  too!

3Dream : that's a nice face- a nice young looking face. sorta demure . cool.
Also  you look a bit like Adam Sandler.
and I think someone here likes you 

Gorgeous, you should give the same treatment to other figures.

Content Paradise is offering what appears to be three total body morphs for Alyson and her sister morphs. It is called Plastic Surgeon.

LMK

 Yeah, he might even squeeze out a sale if he put a few examples of what his product will do  on the page.  

[Shrug] I agree. I'm not buying unless I see some more promotional images. Or, some one who has bought the product supplies some renders.

But, there are some products for enhancing the base Alyson/Ryan figures already appearing.

LMK

Who are you referring to? If it's 3Dream, the morph is free....

No, I think they are referring to the new morph pack at CP.   There are promos but from what I can see they are just for the breasts.   Sorry to say, $15.00 for breast enhancements is a bit steep in my book.  Of course I'm not a boob man so there ya go!! :lol:

@JoePublic:

Please be a gentleman and offer that poor girl a sandwich!!!

Laurie

Quote - @JoePublic:

Please be a gentleman and offer that poor girl a sandwich!!!

Laurie

Why? Apparently it all just goes to her right hand!  :lol:

Actually, it's her left hand (our right)

 No, your right hand can be the left side of someone you're facing, but it will always be your right hand.

Quote - Actually, it's her left hand (our right)

Yeah, I sometimes confuse left and right as well. It helps to try and write "right" down, because if I try to write it right with my right, it looks pretty wrong.