Bagginsbill, thanks for the explanation. More detailed than I was actually needing, but that's okay. What I just didn't realize is that these numbers are directly impacting each other and the total should be 1. For some reason, I was looking at them independently.

Gonna have to look at my shaders and see if there's any further way I can improve them.

Ok, I think even I get the math on that one (now it's been explained in detail - glad you didn't actually have to get the glove puppets out). See, I said I should know this.

What I think has confused me for so long is specifically with regard to diffuse maps for skin. I almost always find  that caucasian skin maps render unrealistically dark, even in excessively bright lighting.
This is most likely, I realise now, because the creators of the maps are probably depicting somewhat more tanned skin than I am used to seeing around me every day (it's a grim light in the UK so we're paler I guess). But I have tended to both lighten the diffuse maps AND increase the diffuse value - which is most definitely a no-no with IDL.
I do have a dim and distant memory of reading that a diffuse texture should have the appearance of the intended local colours of the object in a perfectly lit environment (whatever that is).

Thanks for going back to basics (I really do suck at math).

Ack. Looking at my character shaders, and somehow I ended up with all the values at... zero??? How come the renders can look good at all?

So what all am I adding together to create 1?

1. Diffuse Value
2. Specular Value

Anything else? (Presumably on a character I don't want translucence and ambience at anything other than 0. Right?)

What about the Alternate_Diffuse, Alternate_Specular, Reflection and Refraction? All of them contribute to the light coming from the surface.

Whichway

Yeah, but they don't have values... I guess I have to dig through all of BB's VSS nodes to figure out what the math actually is....

If there is nothing connected to them, then they don't contribute, but if they are connected, yes, you have to work out what the nodes compute. Have fun!

Whichway

That's what I was afraid of. VSS is so complex, and I'm not sure which settings are directly relevant to this issue. Most of the things that have a specified "Value" are either white or set to 1.0. I don't really think I changed any of that stuff, as it's well over my head. (Everything's hooked up to the Alt Diffuse.)

I've tried some renders that ignore all that and just have Diffuse set to .75 and Specular set to .25, and it looks pretty good (albeit paler)...  but the bump mapping seems to be considerably less noticeable.

But I better stop here, as this is getting pretty far afield from this thread.

I agree, i think vss is not very compatible with idl, look the picture, both sphere have the same color, the left only diffuse, the right vss, i think vss emit too many light, more work for the render engine ...

I can't remember for sure how the original vss prop shaders were anymore, but could you have both the GC on for the shader and be using tone mapping? I think you want to use one or the other not both.

If you're using VSS with P8 and IDL, you definitely have to use the non-AO, non-GC version.

the bad news: alt_diff and alt_spec both cause posersurfaces to emit lite in P7/8 with GI enabled.

the good news: it's not as strong as ambient, as there's no obvious way for default users to increase alt_diff and alt_spec > 1.0.

Not sure ;-)

that's not quite bad news.  it's to be expected.

so  alternate diffuse and alternate spec only transform their input by  multiplying it by the color.  unlike the root diffuse node, which internally applies the diffuse shader.  if you want to control the diffuse shader, as in VSS, where i believe the diffuse and specular values are have an inverse relationship to their shading (not simply their values, i think to mimic the fresnel effect), you plug your texture into a diffuse node and all the proper maps and values into a specular node, do all your transformations explicitly, add them together, and take the total input and give it to the alt diffuse. you just don't have as much control using the root diffuse node and diffuse value.

this means at base that they work pretty much like the ambient node, and other nodes.  iirc, ambient and alt diffuse produce exactly the same effect with the same color plugged into them.

that said, if you're using a very simple shader, as i've noted in the forums before, if you just keep your diffuse value and specular value so their sum is  somewhere around 1, you'll do a lot for its realism. 

merci beaucoup pour l'image, athan.  as shown in above imgs (ice and athan), lite-emitting effect from alt_diff channel at value 1.0 is not noticeable unless lite-emitting surface is contiguous to another posersurface, in which case the lite-emitting effect might be confused with GIbounces or "colour-bleeding".  whilst this feature has been known in poser since 3rd Q 2006 (approx), I dunno whether shader creators have taken this into account yet.  perhaps they will advise users to turn off IDL, or maybe they will just ignore the feature.  however, IMVHO it's not gonna be a big problem. even tho everybody now knows how to multiply the effect, nobody will actually do it in a gallery or promo render AFAIK.

did more tests and it doesnt work always.

Looks great to me!

Quote - did more tests and it doesnt work always.

What ?

the last one looks very good IMVHO.  with bright directional or HDRI lites, they won't even notice any lite-emitting fx from shaders with alt_diffuse.  bright lites will also swamp out most of the IDL artifacts at intersections of non-welded surfaces.

Shaders with alt_diffuse only glow if you don't plug a lighting node into it. The VSS skin shader uses a Diffuse node and a Blinn node - these are combined and plugged into the alt_diffuse channel. It doesn't glow.

what about a car shader. will the tone mapping make the reflection brighter?

Tone mapping makes everything brighter. What is your question really about?

I finally got IDL to render in only 7 hours using TerraDome, 1 Raytrace bounce, and 7 IC, 7 IDL. I was amazed at the added realism even with those low quality settings.

But, in IDL the Elite skin shaders from DAZ make the figures look like they have been slathered with cooking oil. Toooo shiney.

I guess I will have to figure out how to change the shaders for Poser IDL.

lmk

LK,

Have you tried VSS with the Elite textures? It's very easy to adjust the VSS Template_Skin for IDL. Just set PM:Shine = .4 (because we use less direct light and need a little more specular), PM:Gamma=1 (because we want linear luminance for IDL calculations, and we use HSV ETM with Poser 8 to brighten the image) and PM:SSS = .3 or less (because the skin-to-skin IDL bouncing in shadows already makes these areas more red.)

BagginsBill:

Thanks, I will have to read up on VSS and see how to use it. I haven't up to this point because I am color blind, and I simply cannot see the subtleties that many of you enjoy, or the mistakes that I might make. With a good recipe to follow I can be more confident that I am getting a result that won’t garner a question like, "that’s interesting, was there a reason you made the skin green?"

It also makes more of a difference now that I am learning more about IBL, and now that there is usable IDL.

lmk

Totally color blind, or just red-green?

If you're ever in doubt, post a test render, and tell your settings on VSS.

BagginsBill:

I have Red-Green-Brown, and Blue-Purple color blindness. When I was young, I got about 2/3 of the test right, now I get only 1/3 right. I see colors, just not as many as other people. The brighter the color, th better I can see it. Pastels are wasted on me. Unfortunately, back-lighted colors are even harder to differentiate than surface reflected colors, and monitors are back lighted (so are traffic lights). I think that total color blindness occures only with injury.

A few months ago, some folks here helped me find some RGB charts with named colors and gave the RGB attributes so that I had references to start with. That made things a lot easier for me. But, I have concentrated on learning other things about Poser, more so than subtle skin tones. Now, with advances in Poser 8, the shaders that content providers have used, may have flaws even I can see. It is time to learn more.

One bright spot, I recently had a cataract removed, and now colors are a little more vivid.

lmk

Quote - Tone mapping makes everything brighter. What is your question really about?

would we have to anti-TM the reflection so that it would work in a car shader and for materials like a mirror? 

2 bounces
IC=20
ILQ=5
5 minutes to render

4 point lights with ILF

Yes. So for a background image, or a photo applied to EnvSphere, or something seen in a mirror, the photo is being tone mapped and you don't want to see it that way.

So - use this shader for that photo. Enter your HSV ETM exponent where the red arrow points. I was using an exponent of 2.

Plug your image into the Image_Map node.

This is an exact inverse of HSV ETM. I tested it with many exponents. It works perfectly.

Warning - any image that has pure white in it will produce infinite numbers in this calculation. To avoid that, make one change. The bottom Math_Function, Subtract, change Value_1 to 1.01. This will produce a 1% error in cancellation of the tone mapping, but it will avoid infinity.

works perfect .

thaaaaaaaaank you

Quote - With different materials.

4 point lights with ILF

think you got the colors and light intensity perfect. but the sharp shadows dont work. for a final render try more soft shadows.

BB you said one day ( i dont remember when exactly ) we have to GC the reflection, ok, but this dont look real like these pictures ( the dark ambiance is want cause is there no light only the bulb of the ceiling lamp ) ...

Dont paid attention to the artifacts it's not the subject, look at the table, left GC 1, right GC 2.2 ( all the others materials are GC 2.2 ), the left look more realistic than the right, no ?

he said you need to anti-GC the reflection.  its very simple. only 2 extra nodes.

I have to search thx ...

download BB's orb shaders. there  is the anti-GC for a reflective materials.

Whoa - we seem to have some things mixed up.

With IDL, we cannot use GC shaders. These are producing non-linear voltage levels for display on monitors, not actual luminance values. When you give IDL voltage levels instead of linear luminance levels, it makes nonsense.

**
Anthanasius****
Bagginsbill

are those rooms with poser 8? ****

**

Quote - **
Anthanasius****
Bagginsbill

are those rooms with poser 8? ****

---

---

**

I don't understand the question. Are you asking rendered with? If that, then of course - how else do you get IDL?

i mean the objects if they come with poser 8? i mean the props and walls and plants.

I made my walls, windows, and doors, floor and ceiling. I'm learning to model because there are very few good free interior models.

The table and chairs was a freebie from RDNA, can't remember the name or who made it. The plants were from Poser 7 The Pad. The painting is a freebie I found here - can't remeber the name - search for "painting" in freestuff.

So nothing was from Poser 8 in mine.

ice-boy : No, a medley from personal modeling, store and freestuff

You can find a lot of free interior furniture on the archibase site. They come in 3DS format though, but it can be imported into Poser with lot of success.

http://www.archibase.net/gdl

Quote - You can find a lot of free interior furniture on the archibase site. They come in 3DS format though, but it can be imported into Poser with lot of success.

http://www.archibase.net/gdl

Used to go there often, but some of the 3d models are not properly UV mapped. BB, I love the room you are creating!