To me the DOF seems so bad that I wouldn't make any value judgments based on that image. Or are those just compression artifacts on the blurred edges?

hoplaa,

As I said, I wasn't going to post the image because I'm using Beta software and there's a problem at the moment, causing artifacts around object and image boundaries. I was responding to the point raised that render time without DOF might be wildly different than with DOF. As far as I can see, the DOF rendering has been re-implemented, resulting in a huge performance increase. However, it isn't finished, and is producing artifacts.  I think the information I have to offer about performance of a DOF+IDL render is still relevant, even though the artifacts have to be fixed. Most of the time, artifacts like this have been simple arithmetic errors that, once corrected, do not substantially change the render times one can expect.

If anything, as SM finds and fixes problems, we are able to use lower values on render settings and at the same time get better results than before. That is the point I'm trying to convey here. In the initial release of P8, it was not possible to get such a clean render (the one without DOF) in so little time. Now IDL is rendering very nicely at ridiculously low settings for Indirect Light Quality - I used 6 out of 100 here.

 Wow, that's impressive. Hopefully they get things ready for SP1 soon - I would really like to try that too....

Base P8 AlysonLoadedm orphed a little, posed and render ed at 100% IDL and just 1 IBL..
13 minutes for me from start to finish rendering.

Quote - I do not claim to hold a candle to bagginsbill's magical talents.

Base P8 Alyson loaded morphed a little, posed and rendered at 100% IDL and just 1 IBL..
13 minutes for me from start to finish rendering.

DOF artifacts, so that's what's going on been pulling my hair out trying to figure out what was going on. Though I'm sure I checked poser pro to see if it was a bug and it happened there too, I though I was doing something wrong. It seems those artifacts at least the ones I've been getting are transparent to an extent in a weird way. BB I guess your back ground colour is black. I tried with white and cyan and noticed it was selected background color. Even if there is multiple objects behind the back ground colour leaks out.

Quote -  Use both, like both. Each has its strengths, each has its weaknesses. Not going to get into any application wars beyond that, because everyone else will have their own opinion anyway.

The "mine's better" stuff is getting pretty tiresome, to be honest.

Amen to that :)

It doesn't matter which one works best for you the artist.  Frankly I don't really care, I just like looking at the work and I work with what I work with, because it works best for me.

The OP had no intentions of coming in on a fact finding mission, it was to troll pure and simple. Why the bashing?  I could never understand that.  My toy isn't any better then your toy, just different...you do what you want and let me do what I want without shoving something down my throat and we'll all get along just fine....and I promise I'll do the same for you.  We need both.  I have no want or need for either Poser or DS to fail....competition is a good thing, keeps the market stable and prevents one corporation from controlling the market.

But yeah, the diatribes are getting just a little much.  I'm beginning to think that discussing religion and politics would be mild compared to what I've been reading in the Poser vs DS topic.  It's not like it's Armageddon or anything just because Poser 8 has bugs....it's still got a lot of good stuff going for it :)  They're listening they'll work it out. 

For myself, I'm just glad that the oppotunities to do this exist at all :)

I'll have a coke please :)

Dr. Pepper, AMC Javelin, FinalRender. 

"It doesn't matter which one works best for you the artist.  Frankly I don't really care, I just like looking at the work and I work with what I work with, because it works best for me."

Agreed.

With time at a premium these days, I tend to stick with what is easiest and most familiar to use in order to achieve my own goals. For those who can spend the time, good on ye. :)

PS: Red Bull, Jeep Wrangler, POV-Ray ('cause I'm sentimental like that :) ).

 >>> We need both.  I have no want or need for either Poser or DS to fail....competition is a good thing, keeps the market stable and prevents one corporation from controlling the market. <<<

I feel the same way. We need both. The people behind these apps are good, and very talented people that are totally devoted to what they do. The products they make have given me endless hours of enjoyment and fascination, and both have improved my ability to express myself in more ways than I can count.

Pepsi, Jeep Cherokee, and no one's mentioned Cinema 4D w/InterPoser Pro yet. ;-) 

Poser 8 vs daz studio is like windows mobile phone vs iphone ... winmo is an open system with a lot of tweak options, iphone is a key in hands phone for noobs ...

Sorry but it's real ...

 iPhone. There's an app for that. Best phone I've ever had.

Yes, we do need both.

Even if you're looking for the Voltaire reason (to paraphrase) "If DAZ|Studio did not exist, it would be necessary for Curious Labs to create one", competition is good.

In any field, when one product has total dominance, everyone else suffers. Back in the bad old days of 96% marketshare of Internet Explorer, Microsoft had near-complete dominance of the web browser market... and Internet Explorer simply languished. Nothing new or exciting came out. Security sucked - any random 13-year-old with a text editor who could type "javascript" or "IFRAME" could destroy your computer.
Then Firefox came along... and suddenly became HUGE (those of us in the Linux community have known about it for years, but it never really took off until there were Windows and OSX versions). Internet Explorer, one of the linchpins to Microsoft's dominance of the web, dropped from 95% marketshare in 2001-2002, down to less than 60% now, and it is still falling hard. Microsoft is still struggling with trying to keep what they do have, even as it copies concepts from everyone else to do it. Meanwhile, this opened the door for Opera to expand, Safari to rise, Chrome to come along, and nowadays a very vibrant market has arisen. End result? We now have a LOT of choices, and new features arriving all the time.

Operating systems? Look at Windows 7 - you would have never seen half the eye-candy and features present in it if it were not for Apple and OSX growing rapidly in strength and marketshare.

Poser? Poser 5 would have languished, and Poser 6/7/Pro/8 would have probably not have half the new features they had if it wasn't for DAZ|Studio's existence and growth. DAZ|Studio would not have had IBL and all its other goodies if it wasn't for Poser's additions of them. The two challenge each other, and we end up the winners.

Quote - Poser 8 vs daz studio is like windows mobile phone vs iphone ... winmo is an open system with a lot of tweak options, iphone is a key in hands phone for noobs ...

Sorry but it's real ...

Err, not exactly. It's a lot more complex in there. :)

Windows Mobile is losing it's butt in marketshare right now - and not only to the iPhone. Palm (Pre), Google (Android), and RIM (Blackberry) have been eating Microsoft's lunch and dating its girlfriend. Even HTC, WinMo's biggest champion, is abandoning WinMo for the Android.

By the by, the iPhone is actually quite open - their only restrictions are that you do not compete directly with their core processes (e.g. don't put Skype of Google Voice on there), or try to violate security. Otherwise, the rest has to do with quality.

Android is completely open - make what you want. WinMo is somewhat open (you pretty much have to get and use Visual Studio for the libraries... and you don't want to know what all of the required bits cost). The global leading phone OS Symbian is (as of recently) open source. Palm I don;t know about, though... simply because I do not know. :)

"By the by, the iPhone is actually quite open - their only restrictions are that you do not compete directly with their core processes (e.g. don't put Skype of Google Voice on there), or try to violate security. Otherwise, the rest has to do with quality." 

 Sooo, porn, farts and baby shaking are a core process or a security threat? Perhaps they will say they were too low quality.  I think DoJ is still trying to figure out the Google Voice thing.

Quote - But I simply haven't been able to get as good renders is DS as in Poser and I really miss the python scripts and IK abilities.  And now that Poser has IDL and faster render speeds I don't think I´ll be switching to DS anytime soon.

Hi
Ive built stuff for Poser for nearly 10 years and beta tested the app too (prior to Smith Micro).
I have Poser 7 (havent upgraded to eight)
I use both apps...but recently I do prefer Daz Studio 3 advanced.
On the subject of rendering...well the basic Firefly is Renderman code that was licensed by Curious Labs at the time of version 5.
Now that Renderer has been upgraded a little over time, but the engine is basically the same.
On the other hand the Daz studio 3d delight Renderer by DNA is also used in Maya, Soft Image XSI etc... hi end apps that demand accuracy in rendering wether it comes to shadow maps, IBL lighting, Global Illumination whatever.
What I am trying to say is this, there is no way that the Firefly is even on an equal par the the 3 delight Renderer.
Now if you get better renders from the Firefly...you know it better thats all.
With the 3 Delight renderer in DS3 you have to wind the shading rate down to 0.2 or thereabouts to get totally detailed renders...and you will get them.
Now if you render a 1 pixel transmapped hair texture with a lot of strands in the Firefly you will see distortion lines, you wont see them with the 3 delight renderer simply because it traces more accurately.
Also place a light several hundred feet from a figure (like trying to simulate sunlight etc...) and use the shadow maps and you will be amazed how inaccurate they are in the Firefly.
Now of course you would usually use Raytracing or IBL etc..or some kind of global illumination, but it gives you an idea how innacurate the Firefly renderer is.
Now that said...I am not trying to bag Poser...I still use it a lot, and a lot of areas in it are very useful...But I have to say the renderer is not in the same league as the 3 delight Renderer which has been used in the Chronicles of narnia...Superman returns etc...

Cheers 

Yeah, I know what you're saying and I'm sure it's all true but like I said before I'm just to impatient and lazy to learn a new system. I´ve tried several times with DS but I've never been happy with the workflow which is annoying because I think the GUI is much better in DS. Thing is, there is no point in having a superior renderer if you're struggling with a single pose or if you're not satisfied with your shaders.

I´m very happy with the new features in P8 so I think I´ll be sticking with it, at least for now.

Quote - "By the by, the iPhone is actually quite open - their only restrictions are that you do not compete directly with their core processes (e.g. don't put Skype of Google Voice on there), or try to violate security. Otherwise, the rest has to do with quality." 

 Sooo, porn, farts and baby shaking are a core process or a security threat? Perhaps they will say they were too low quality.  I think DoJ is still trying to figure out the Google Voice thing.

pr0n app for your iPhone (link semi-safe for work)

The fart ones are still in there IIRC, and the baby-shaking app was pulled due to general public outrage (whihc is understandable).

By the by, I don't own an iPhone - I use the Crackberry Curve I got issued at work, and given that personal calls never exceed 30% of the volume I get on the thing, it suits me (esp. since it costs me $0.00 per month) . A 2GB microSD chip packed with music completes the deal.

hman, while it is true that 3Delight is used in other apps and may be the better renderer that does not mean that you can use that power easily in Studio. You IO'm pretty sure you cannot use the same shaders as a Maya user can, and you don't have the same options.

About crystal-clear renders, well - if you choose a low shading rate and switch off texture filtering, you get a crystal-clear render in Firefly as well. I'm the last to say that Firefly does not have bugs, but it works for me, I get good renders from it. I've got good results with depth mapped shadows in the past, but recently I very much prefer ray traced shadows, because they look much better.

If you get better renders from 3Delight, that's great. The renderer most proably has more options then Firefly has at the moment, but many of them cannot be used from D|S at the moment, and others need to be bought. And, to my experience, Firefly isn't half as bad as you make it here.

 Pepsi.

:-P

It's what you are accustomed to: Coke...Prius (because I'm a geek who likes to watch the graphical feedback)....Starbuck's Iced (straight up)....Fake Butter on my Popcorn.

I use both...plus C4D/Vue for a lot of my renders. I like Daz for the aniMate series....I can make a finely tweaked animation and export it to Poser Pro.

I have also been experimenting with Daz and Collada(whatever) and find it works well in C4D 11/11.5. But  I use a lot of dynamic cloth and I find the Dynamic cloth in Daz not ready for prime time. Also Daz does not interface with Vue...Poser Pro does...this is also important, for me.

Poser 8 is a vast improvement over the other Posers, but I'll have to wait until Poser Pro 2010 to get the export advantages. There have also been big improvements in Poser animation with "dependent" linkage of movements. The arm bends and the bicep muscle can be dependently morphed on the amount of bend. You can make the direction of the twist of the neck dependent on the direction of the eye movement (or vice versa)......to me this is big, and could, eventually put Poser into getting the respect it deserves.

I talked to some of the developers at Siggraph 2009, and I can tell you that SM is quite aware of Poser's potential and they are a hard-working and enthusiastic bunch. I'm amazed at how much they get done and how little they sell this amazing program for. I just bought C4D 11.5 Bundle for nearly $4000....yes, it's expensive....yes, it's worth it...I feel Poser is more than a bargain. I also own the Daz Pro...I just haven't used it for "finished" pieces because I haven't found the lighting I like ..... The downside to Poser, which I expressed to the Poser designers is the extremely awkward lighting setups (hate it)...that's whay I buy so many light sets.

I agree about the lights.  Poser is my fav and the new DP is going to really take off soon I think. But the lights are so hard to get in just the right set up (for me at least) especially those spot lights :cursing:  The render engine in Poser I think is very good, I have never been able to get a decent render out of D/S, I have seen others who could though so I know it can be done, I just dont know how.

Quote -  Pepsi.

:-P

I thought this one was settled:

COCA COLA is the Real Thing! (preferably P8 flavored with a hint of SR1 ;)

Quote -
hman, while it is true that 3Delight is used in other apps and may be the better renderer that does not mean that you can use that power easily in Studio. You IO'm pretty sure you cannot use the same shaders as a Maya user can, and you don't have the same options.

Yes Agreed...that is absolutely true, however the shaders in DS are getting better and better, so its good they have a renderer that is capable of those advanced types of shaders. 

Quote -
About crystal-clear renders, well - if you choose a low shading rate and switch off texture filtering, you get a crystal-clear render in Firefly as well. I'm the last to say that Firefly does not have bugs, but it works for me, I get good renders from it. I've got good results with depth mapped shadows in the past, but recently I very much prefer ray traced shadows, because they look much better.

Yes again..true, the Firefly is fine for a lot of things.
But even with a low shading rate in the Firefly and texture filtering off...I still cant get the level of detail I can in the 3Delight render...and that is important to me.
However there are many amazing renders done in the Firefly...its the artist that makes the difference...and I realize that is the most important thing always.
I still use the Firefly for some things...because I find the Poser shader tree a little easier to use than the DSA ones...they are a bit more visual (IMO)
As far as the shadow maps go...yes raytracing is nicer, but sometimes shadow maps are good to use as well, but they are unusable in larger scenes in Poser.
I was on the beta test when the Firefly was first implemented (when Steve Cooper was the boss) and I complained about this back then (before DS was anything much) but they didn't do anything about it.
Same in Poser 6...they did nothing about...so I did no more betas from then on.
Now what I have found ...is that using both along with AO works best...you can see an example here in a city I built and developed the lighting for as well
(you have to use the magnifying glass to zoom in)
http://s223.photobucket.com/albums/dd184/hjmann//
In other words it would be nice if they fixed this problem with the shadow maps so they are usable in larger scenes...along with a bit of fine tuning in the detail department.
One good programmer could do that fairly easily...maybe SM may look at this?

Quote -
If you get better renders from 3Delight, that's great. The renderer most proably has more options then Firefly has at the moment, but many of them cannot be used from D|S at the moment, and others need to be bought. And, to my experience, Firefly isn't half as bad as you make it here.

It wasn't my intention to make it sound bad...basically all I am saying is its not as good as the 3 Delight (even with DSA current shaders).
This is not a trumpet call about Daz or DSA.
As you probably know the 3 Delight is developed by DNA research... not Daz!!...and thats a good thing because it's their baby, and it is developed aggressively, whereas the Firefly will get updated in time by SM,  therefore it probably will be much slower in it's development, because SM have a lot on their plate.
BUT!! that aside...a good Poser user that knows the app and has an artistic eye...will get brilliant renders from the Firefly in most situations.
Again I use both apps regularly...they both have their strengths (and I am glad they are both there...competition is always good)
Cheers

Ha ha...yeah I know exactly what you are saying...I compose music as well, and I spent about six "&*$!!##" hours trying to figure out how to drag and drop a Kontakt 3 sequence into the midi host, the thing was sooo complex..I was just bewildered....and angry as well.
I spent the whole afternoon just getting nowhere...so I totally sympathize with you on this.

Quote -
I´ve tried several times with DS but I've never been happy with the workflow which is annoying because I think the GUI is much better in DS.

Yeah I struggled with the workflow in DS for quite a while.
Until I discovered how to create my own rooms..this was a real eye opener for me.
I enclosed a screen shot.(at the top of this post)
Each Activity Tab (outlined in yellow) is a workroom, with a custom set of tools, views,camera postions, save and load locations and more...all you do is set up a room how you like to work, hit the tab and you are in a new app so to speak.
Not many DS users know about this feature (it takes a little work to understand it) but once you do...your workflow will increase dramatically.

Quote -
Thing is, there is no point in having a superior renderer if you're struggling with a single pose or if you're not satisfied with your shaders.
I´m very happy with the new features in P8 so I think I´ll be sticking with it, at least for now.

Again very true...I still like the Poser shaders and stuff too...I dont use DS for everything...not at all.
I am a long time Poser user and it fits like an old glove, but I am using DS more and more and am very happy with it .
I think I may buy Poser 8 soon tho...there are some features in it I would like to use.
Cheers

Quote - ...competition is always good) Cheers

Damn straight. Competition pushes both sides to raise the bar, up their game, etc. Without competition, whether you drink coke or pepsi, neither would have advanced as quickly or as far as they have. Healthy ompetition is especially good for us end users.