no, i don't mean you're not predicting for me personally.  you're predicting for everyone who uses him.  which is cool if he's really only for you.  again, i wasn't trying to argue you out of your position.  you asked why do it, and i was saying why. 

frankly, you might have the same problems if what i'm anticipating happens.  because you seem to be interested in realism, and what i'm talking about is strictly a (huge and glaring, most of the time) realism problem.  you're predicting how you'll use him just as much as anyone else, and if you go outside that range or do something you didn't anticipate, it might be a big problem.  or it might not (hopefully).  and just to clarify, i don't mean outside that range like wanting to morph to a werewolf.  i mean you get inspired by a photo or painting and want to duplicate that pose, and find that everything responds so specifically you get bizarre and completely inaccurate behavior. 

there's a reason NBM is optionally tied to movement instead of only done that way.

and again, i really, really hope i'm wrong.  i'm just trying to let you know that your approach might make as many or more problems as it solves in actual practice, even if they don't show up in testing.  and since it's a problem i run into so frequently, that most people avoid by doing exactly what you said you were trying to avoid- using very specific and limited poses- i thought i'd say something.

Wow looks great. Can't wait to see more! :)

Not to introduce any more wrinkles in the discussion, but I notice in the following thread a discussion about a DAZ product that uses dials to switch to alternate geometries.[

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?thread_id=2792712](http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?thread_id=2792712)

The discussion is about this product:

http://www.daz3d.com/i/3d-models/-/shades-of-atlantis?item=9329&spmeta=rq&_m=d

P3D, if you don't have this product, and want to look at it, I will give you a gift certificate for it over at DAZ. I would have paid for the Brad figure anyway. Give me a site mail.

Question, after you insert the non-genital pose, what happens if you re-insert the genitals with a genital insertion  pose? Do you have the same problem then? Or, could you use a REMove pose to put Brad back the way he was? Just wondering.

LMK

Joel, You can have a very wide range of gen sizes with the scaling set up the way I have it. You can have everything from the teenie weenie on the left to the murderous thing on the right, and it still bends very well. (*I cannot show you how it bends here TOS and all) * It scales smoothly and no bumps or creases. But beyond that range of sizes either smaller or larger and you have problems with the bending. Its the best I could do to occomodate all.

lkendall:  thank you for the offer. Alternate geometry is geometry switching, which I did not want to do because the extra geometry is loaded when you load the figure even though it is not in the scene. And takes resources just as if it was in the scene.

This is one  advantage of Cages geometry insertion pose. The geometry is not loaded and therefor takes up no resources.

But no you cannot switch back without the earlier problems, so it's a one shot deal. Which is fine by me :)

Thanks ryuslilangel :)

Alternate geometries were used by P1 figures. I think that alternate genitals would be usefull for dynamic clothing. Genitalia has a lot of polys what increase time of calculation. If you place some "dummy" gen in this place, which looks like bulged hips, using dynamic pants would be easier.
Tomorrow I'll try to show what I mean with pictures.

OK drapak12 I can do that. I have the geometry piece that welds in in place of the gens. It has plenty enough poly's to be pseudo gens under the clothes. So when you get the chance show me the examples and I'll do my best.  :)

Cheers,
Mike

off to bed for me.

gonna work on toes and feet tomorrow

phantom3D:

Thanks, I understand the difference better now. You are very patient.

I think the solution is ingenious.

I may just load the insert no-genitals pose, and save the CR2 back to my runtime to save the step, when I want to use Brad that way. I have the room.

LMK

Hip geometry is the same - all morphs work correct. "Cap" used in place of genital is low res - easy to add morphs sutable to hip morphs.

just a comment about the "cap" and how low res it should go: i've had to make one for the two sets dynamic clothes i've made for M4, and it's already needed to be significantly different (one is a dance tights/dance belt, the other is speedos). the Ken doll look is really a problem when making clothes dynamically and using dynamic clothes. 

 That's why the "Package" morph suggestion was floated around. No bulge in the pant=Ken syndrome!  We ALL want to avoid THAT!

In Poser 8, Pro, and I think Poser 7, the morph tool allows one to make a "bulge" at the appropriate place. I should think that this would take care of the "Kin doll" look. If I can do it, anyone can. But, if one cannot do this for oneself (old version of Poser, or using D/S), it should be a small matter to supply an injectable morph.

lmk

only if the cup has enough polys.

There is a picture of the mesh without genitals on page one of this thread. It looks like there are plenty of polys.

Maybe P3D will post a render of the mesh of his alternate hip pose so that folks can see for themselves?

LMK

perhaps i misread the post i was responding to, as drapak12 said his (or her?) english wasn't very good, but the suggestion seemed to be to have a notably low res cup for dynamic clothes.  since there seems to be resolution lowering conversations going on in general, and that was a specific request for a low resolution cup, i was simply trying to say that if it goes too low, it won't morph nicely into appropriate bulges. yes, the cup as it was shown on page 1 looks good.

His ;)
Cap is low poly if you compare it to morphed genital. I deleted prop which I made for picture but number of polygons was similar to the sam areo on "HipNoGen.obj".
I think this is easiest way to make "censored" figure. Alternate hip obj requires additional morphs. If you replace genital only, no new morphs on hip are required.

I remember when I used dynamic clothes with Apollo Maximus. Scaled penis made drapes weird and calculation was very long.
I made genitals invisible, but clothes draped unnatural on hole in the hip. Then I used dummy props - low res balls primitive.

 Looks good to me.

Quote - His ;)
Cap is low poly if you compare it to morphed genital. I deleted prop which I made for picture but number of polygons was similar to the sam areo on "HipNoGen.obj".
I think this is easiest way to make "censored" figure. Alternate hip obj requires additional morphs. If you replace genital only, no new morphs on hip are required.

I remember when I used dynamic clothes with Apollo Maximus. Scaled penis made drapes weird and calculation was very long.
I made genitals invisible, but clothes draped unnatural on hole in the hip. Then I used dummy props - low res balls primitive.

So Apollo had lo res balls? I think I prefer what Mike did.:laugh: No lo res balls there! LOLOLOL

Quote - His ;)
Cap is low poly if you compare it to morphed genital. I deleted prop which I made for picture but number of polygons was similar to the sam areo on "HipNoGen.obj".
I think this is easiest way to make "censored" figure. Alternate hip obj requires additional morphs. If you replace genital only, no new morphs on hip are required.

I remember when I used dynamic clothes with Apollo Maximus. Scaled penis made drapes weird and calculation was very long.
I made genitals invisible, but clothes draped unnatural on hole in the hip. Then I used dummy props - low res balls primitive.

Yup, compared to Brads gens which run about 10,000 poly's this 500 poly replacement piece is much lower.  :)

That's the idea drapak i replace the genitals with this 500 poly piece using Cages geometry insertion, which also welds the piece in so it can bend with the rest of the figure. I really like the idea because unlike alternate geometry or geometry swapping, this method does not require the computer resources that other methods do. Also as you mention I only need to have the extra morphs that effect the genital region.

Joel: you know that song by AC/DC ?

 AC/DC? :scared: No...... Can you hum a few bars? Hmmmmmm, something about lo res balls?:laugh: Not familiar with it.

Here it is Joel:

www.youtube.com/watch

Hey I just thought of another use for this geometry insertion. Well just suppose (could happen) that you are doing a scene that need the genitals, but they are not getting any strenuous excersize so you dont need alot of functionality.................................Well I have a low rez version of the gens, about 1500 poly's, and if I can get them down to 3 or 4 groups, you could pop in the low poly gens just like that.

Apollo had dummy balls and Brad has 2 penises ;)
Just like kangaroo.

 Brad has more talent than a LOT of guys, it seems! :laugh:

KANGAROO! :lol: LOLOLOLOOLOL

I'd heard the "Big Balls" song before, but I never knew it was AC/DC! That's information.:laugh:

Cage: I got the full geometry insertion pose to work with all ten body parts, and if we could figure out why we might be able to write something up that works perfectly. I took your suggestion and added a pose file to the mix, the gens came in posed but with the same problem as befor, but if I run it a second time they come in posed with all parts working correctly. Any ideas as to why? Or what we might be able to do to get it to work with the first aplication?

I should have asked this initially when there were problems: are you using this method on a zeroed figure, or a posed one?  I've only used this with a zeroed figure.  Quite possibly zeroing the figure before running the geom insertion might remove the problems.

But that isn't in response to your immediate question.  When you say you added a pose file, do you mean a standard library pose file?  My suggestion was to add a JP joint insertion pose to the process, in hopes that running a JP pose would be equivalent to opening the figure in the setup room or joint editor.  So, I have to ask: what sort of pose is working here, when it does work?

If the figure isn't zeroed, I could perhaps see a standard library pose helping refresh/update Poser somehow.  

Yup Zeroed. But hey it works even when the figure is twisted posed and flung to the stars, just pops in pretty as you please, but I have to do it twice.

I just added a pose to the file a regular pose.  OK so a joint insertion Pose, where could I find some info on that.  I seem to remember EnglishBob  talking about adding joints that way. I shall search around and see if I can find any info.

So a standard library pose is helping correct the problem, but only if loaded twice?  Is that correct?

If any combination of poses is found to correct the geom insertion joint errors, you can try running all of them with one click, from a readScript pose.  Using readScript, you could run the geom insertion, then load the standard pose twice, if that's what's working.

Readscript, cool that might do it.  I am going to try this JP insertion too, that may solve it right off.  Thanks Cage for all the help, would take me forever to figure it out by hit and miss.

 did it work?

Hi esther:

Yup, it works great. So now I have the gens poppin in or out, the brows in or out and Bagginsbills eyes poppin. I have some big plans for this geometry insertion you'll see...................:)

Thanks Cage :) And thanks Bagginbill for these gorgeous eyes. :)

just to double check, this means he has to have a bunch of data in the main runtime like DAZ figures now, right?  because it uses Readscript?

Alot less than an extra cr2

The process worked?  Wonderful!  :D

Just out of curiosity, what did you do to get it to work?  Your effort is adding to the PoserTechie knowledge base, here, revealing new possibilities for the use of geometry insertion poses.  What finally did the trick?

what you're planning no worse than what everyone else does, but with more benefit, and i'm not complaining.  i'm just adding to the long list of things i'll need to port when i finally upgrade, and making sure that i (and anyone else reading this- it was a frequent question about V3, and V4 forces base Runtime install) know what absolutely needs to be in the main runtime and what doesn't.

but no, you don't have to put the cr2 in the main runtime at all.  that's why it's a  big performance saver.  even if i use only Brad for a month, say, default scene and all, my (personal) copy of Poser will take forever to load because it's got all of the DAZ scripts and morphs and such in that main runtime. and other people's injectors and Readscripts.  before all of that, it loaded in seconds.  i like acquiring morphs.  but because of injectors that need to be in the main runtime, i have to load everyone's morphs each time i start up Poser.
edited to clarify: load as in load with the rest of the main runtime, not load like morphs into a figure, etc.

there's other issues to maintenance, too.

whereas a cr2 is mainly an issue that one time you actually need it.  when you have to load one or another figure anyway.  the main benefit to on-the-fly switching is if you mostly don't know which version you'll want ahead of time.  otherwise, with one cr2, you'll mostly waste time getting to the alternate version when you know you already know you want the other.  

you can save your cr2 yourself, but the more complicated the cr2 in the first place, the more likely something is to just break.  i have a V3 character that's completely broken in the toes.  they flatten when they bend.  i've never touched a rig or the setup room or anything like that in my life.  all i did was inject the particular morph sets i wanted and save a new character.  and, those same morphs are in a different V3 character i saved without any issue.  sometimes i think Poser has some sort of evil gremlin inside of it.

Hi Cage I am using the read script and it all works just great even with all 10 body parts. :) I have not even tried the JP insertion yet, it may work as well. So I basically have a regular pose for the gens added to the insertion (since I need the gens to come in posed) and called by the readscript.

Cobalt Dream, well I like it.

Quote - sometimes i think Poser has some sort of evil gremlin inside of it.

Quoted for truth!

For Antonia, I never use cr2s saved from Poser or D|S directly. I always copy the portions that have changed over to my master file, either using a script, or doing it by hand in a text editor.

 At least it's only a part-time evil gremlin in my machine!:laugh:

If it were a full time employee with full benefits, we'd all be on different software, then Poser!! LOLOL

BY HAND IN A TEXT EDITOR?!?!?!?!? :scared: You scare me,Olaf!

Quote -
BY HAND IN A TEXT EDITOR?!?!?!?!? :scared: You scare me,Olaf!

Well, that was recently when I changed some JPs. It would have been save to copy just the affected joint channels, but because it was only for a couple of parameters on each side, I decided I might as well do it by hand.

 Brad now haas equipment.  How's his wrinkles going? those poses looked okay to me that had the wrinkles.
How's his jaw?
Bring him on soon!
Love esther

Yes I will, he will have no morphs or clothing or skins but I can work on those as we go. Also I am not completely done with the scaling but that can be done in the future as well. Do you know how to set up a web page esther? Just a simple one page deal?

  I use a software for making my webpages normally, and that can only be used for one's own site.  my software is called sandvox and there is a free version but it is mac only.
however i could try and make a single webpage without special software eg just in ms word or something.  
love esther

Oh I forgott my host has some software to set up the web pages, I forgett what its called but I remember seeing it now. I will take a look, I have not been there in months and months. Hope my account lets me in still LOL. Thanks, maybe I can ask for pointers if I get stuck?

 Hi,
I will be happy to try and help.  Also I can import Brad into vue, and since he isn't wearing clothes I could make a render or two of him frolicking in happy natural scenery for the page.
Love esther

Not that I have it, but I wonder how Brad will do in Carrara?

lmk

 i'm absolutely sure he would import okay. there's several export options available with latest poser.
Love esther

I have Blacksmith3D v3.3 (still on sale at DAZ3D). After Brad comes out, maybe I can figure out how to use it, and try to make a texture set for him. Then again, I guess that I would probably need a good set of photo references to use?

lmk

 maybe an IMK texture then?  set camera to time delay and smile.

**FEET: ** Booring, but have to be done. Brads feet are a bit ugly I think, I am not so good with foot shapes So, I think I have all the centers for the feet and toes set and they bend well. I have toe spread in there. I will add some erc dials for easy use.

PS:  My feet dont really twist much without twisting the shin so I did a half foot twist, half shin. (last pic)

 that looks good.  the foot twist looks natural to me.
How are you going with his jaw?
Love esther

Jaw is set, just need to add the JCM's for it to work properly, a mater of a couple of hours really, very easy stuf JCM's.  Once all joints are set the rest goes very quickly.

My work flow is chaos, in that I set JP's and then work out final geometry additions, subtractions. depending on how the mesh is reacting as opposed to how I imagined it would react when I built it. That part is all done, thank the stars above.

Next I make small changes in the shape of the figure, again depending on how the mesh is deforming, and adjust the JP's all over again accordingly.

All the while making changes in the groups, to fit the changes in JP's

Almost finished with the last of it, check the fingers again, since they have a habit of getting out of place. Then eyes, and I am done with JP's at least untill people find flaws, then it's back to the grind.

I will in the end touch up the UV's and if DPHoadley is still willing get a remap for M3. Need people to put Brad through the paces on the rigging and get the complaints together and address those issues, I imagine that will take awhile.  I think untill that is done any work for textures or clothing would be wasted effort, since much may change. Also no sense in doing all the scaling untill all JP's have their final settings, since if something is changed the scaling will need to be done again.

So, check fingers, and set up the eyes and some simple erc and it's testing time. Oh and the JCM's for the mouth.