http://www.daz3d.com/i/shop/itemdetails/?item=9404

They've been unleashed!  And the base models are free.

Quote - http://www.daz3d.com/i/shop/itemdetails/?item=9404

They've been unleashed!  And the base models are free.

Thanks for the heads up. Just downloaded them.
pdg

Sadly the toddler doesn't seem to work in poser and they have no plans making that work in the near future. Otherwise they are great :)

Quote - Sadly the toddler doesn't seem to work in poser and they have no plans making that work in the near future. Otherwise they are great :)

Anything else, not working in POSER?
Can you psot some Poser renderings?
Thanks

I am at work on call won't get home until much later tonight there are lots of renders on the daz forums by new owners and the testers.

So far it doesn't seem like anything else is not working in poser though, just the Toddler maybe in time someone will find a way to get it to work. At least I hope so!

The toodler doesn't work because it uses single-axis scaling, the only way DAZ could get the character's proportions to scale properly, apparently. If Poser were made to support that, the problem would be solved, so complaining to Smith Micro might be a good idea. If enough people insist they add support for this, maybe they'll make it a priority.

Quote - The toodler doesn't work because it uses single-axis scaling, the only way DAZ could get the character's proportions to scale properly, apparently. If Poser were made to support that, the problem would be solved, so complaining to Smith Micro might be a good idea. If enough people insist they add support for this, maybe they'll make it a priority.

ROTFLMSAO! Yeah! They'll put that right on the front burner!

Sorry, but when you invent an electric tool that works only with 435 Volts you cant expect the electricity companies to change their standard to make your bullshxxx work, am I right?

But, the toddler works, at least in P8, you have to load the kids4, load the Toddler Pose and then under Morphs | Shapes in the Body you have to dial the Toddler morph.

My husband tried that for me at home and said there are some odd deformities around the head in Poser Pro 2010 gonna test it when I get home.

I've downloaded but not installed them yet.

And that means that the announced "Ageing up from 4 to 8" feature using scaling "Morphforms" won't work too.

So, unless you want to stick to that default stubby legged dwarf body that DAZ thinks is correct for a 4yrs old human child, that mesh is USELESS in Poser.

You can't even scale it up manually after unhiding the scale dials (Which are STILL hidden by default) because the basic rigging is so messed up.

My impressions so far:

1. Crucical features like scaling don't work In Poser.
2. Default body very primitive looking.
3. Head way too large for a 4yrs old
4. Face morph looks too old for a 4yrs old
5. Thigh and buttock deform very badly
6. Chest creases when bent forwards.
7. Shoulders very badly rigged. Way to broad, too.

So apart from some "cutesy" new face morphs and better expression, we are actually even worse off than before.

Scaling is always a BAD idea to incorporate in a morph, but as shown by Apollo and others, it CAN work quite well in Poser if the figure is PROPERLY RIGGED.

Sorry DAZ, but these Kids deserve an "F".

I only hope the Poser users will let the merchants know what they think of non-working figures, and don't fall for DAZ' usual spin that "Everything's fine but sadly Poser is broken".

What Poser users NEED instead of "one size fits all" "versatility" Morphforming is a baby, a toddler/preschooler, a gradeschooler/preteen and a teen figure, all with their own dedicated rigging.
(It would still be easy enough to convert clothing between them with joint injection poses)

Obviously DAZ is unwilling to deliver, so hopefully someone else will.

But this will only happen if Poser users make it clear that they won't accept excuses anymore.

If DAZ wants to keep seelling their stuff to Poser users, they better make sure that it actually works in Poser.

Even if that means offering a mesh with multiple rigs.

Or just be honest enough and admit that you won't support Poser anymore.

But you can't have your cake and eat it, too.

JoeP, I think in the back of their minds they are thinking, if we make enough products specific to our software (Studio), people will start using it and drop poser or at least buy a copy of the paid Studio version. Then over time reel them in to Studio or one of their other offerings exclusively.

I have to agree with Joe, they didn't bother to set up Poser scaling again, if they would set it up it would work.  And they are poorly rigged. Say, JoePublic there is a product I would buy, some properly set up rigs for the freak, M4 and the rest. Is it alot of work?

Well, they started with the Freak 4 and continuing the trend with the Kids 4.

I won't go back to studio though... I started with it then went for poser because no real dynamics I can create myself is a real deal breaker! The kids are ok, however I am fed up that they seem to start making more of their stuff studio only while I can understand that I prefer daz figures to SM... sigh

i must admit, i agree with JoePublic.  they say they can't do this any other way, but c'mon.  Anton did it on his own.  odf and Phantom3d have worked at making parts of Antonia scale,  Phantom3d has worked at making his figure scale.  heck, old DAZ figures have scaling in Poser. i still remember a lot of dwarf characters that worked very well for various Vickies.  but now that they have a different way of doing things, they're just saying they can't do it any other way.  which just isn't true.  they don't want to do it any other way, which i can respect, but then say that.  don't say that it's not possible for DAZ with all it's resources to do what individuals have already accomplished, in Anton's case years ago and in a way 20xs more versatile.    just admit you don't feel like bothering.

And Ali also made parts of Angela scale. The excuse "it won't work otherwise" don't wash with me. Daz wants ppl to just use DAZ.

Tis okay, I have plenty of non-Daz figures I like just as much ;o).

Don't know cause I'm no genius, but it doesn't seem like a good idea to piss off the GREATER chunk of ur market ;o).

Laurie

Yup, I'll download the freebies but not buying any items for them.

 Their faces are totally unremarkable.

Quote -  Their faces are totally unremarkable.

Yeah, I agree. Don't they look a little too old for the age they're supposed to be?

Anyway...LOVE your sig line replicand....lol!

Laurie

I have a real toddler underfoot...thanks, but I'm good...;) But don't let that stop y'all...;)

Quote -  

Yeah, I agree. Don't they look a little too old for the age they're supposed to be?

I hadn't thought of that (facial proportions) but yes, they appear wrong. Eyes, nose and lips should probably be larger in relation to face size, since eyes stay relatively the same size as the other features develop around them. Even the boy's body should have more stomach / intestine happening in the abdomen because younger children don't have so much of the "upside-down-triangle" thing happening in their torsos.

Regarding the toddler: granted, I don't have children and I know that hair's a prop but that's a lot of friggin (very adult looking) hair.

to me it looks like a 15 year old face on a 6 year old body.

i am wondering what will happen now. a lot of poser users like to post naked figures in sex positions. i hope that noone will do this with those kids figures. sick iMO.

Was there some reason you had to turn this into something other than a Kids 4 thread?

Daz could have got the toddler to work properly in Poser if they wanted to, they chose not to, in exactly the same way they chose not to make F4 work properly, it was a deliberate decision on their part to start the move away from Poser to Daz Studio only products.

Pretend all you want it's not about the kids4 but the truth is they decided Poser is no longer going to be fully supported by their products.

Quote -
Pretend all you want it's not about the kids4 but the truth is they decided Poser is no longer going to be fully supported by their products.

I hope that was not directed at my post. I was talking about dragging in an unneeded topic.

Frankly, I'm not surprised. Daz3D community's myopia is quite evident when I got on their forums and started asking material-based questions. It's their way or no way.

Perhaps this isn't a bad thing. Much as I look forward to the - at this point vaporware - Victoria 5, if she's going to be designed not to work in Poser or to only work in DS, Poser developers may be inclined to provide a bit of more sophisticated competition to the Poser-content people, as well as sky-rocket the Antonias of Poserdom to a highly prominent position.

What a MASSIVELY bad design decision, though. I'm guessing here, but based on the galleries and the marketplace I'd say that V4 holds supreme status as most popular figure. That said: I really don't see people ash-canning investments in Poser 8 and PoserPro2010 and defecting to DS over a figure.

And then, there's some other concepts I hate to even broach, but beg utterance: what's to keep really clever riggers to take the mesh of these Daz-only figures and re-rig for Poser compatibility?

Quote - I hope that was not directed at my post. I was talking about dragging in an unneeded topic.

No no, it was a just a general dig at Daz not you at all, it just happened to follow your post that's all. :thumbupboth:

OK that's cool. It happens.

Quote - You can't even scale it up manually after unhiding the scale dials (Which are STILL hidden by default) because the basic rigging is so messed up.

Scaling is always a BAD idea to incorporate in a morph, but as shown by Apollo and others, it CAN work quite well in Poser if the figure is PROPERLY RIGGED.

Sorry DAZ, but these Kids deserve an "F".

I only hope the Poser users will let the merchants know what they think of non-working figures, and don't fall for DAZ' usual spin that "Everything's fine but sadly Poser is broken".

What Poser users NEED instead of "one size fits all" "versatility" Morphforming is a baby, a toddler/preschooler, a gradeschooler/preteen and a teen figure, all with their own dedicated rigging.
(It would still be easy enough to convert clothing between them with joint injection poses)

Obviously DAZ is unwilling to deliver, so hopefully someone else will.

But this will only happen if Poser users make it clear that they won't accept excuses anymore.

If DAZ wants to keep seelling their stuff to Poser users, they better make sure that it actually works in Poser.

Even if that means offering a mesh with multiple rigs.

Or just be honest enough and admit that you won't support Poser anymore.

But you can't have your cake and eat it, too.

The problem is really rather simple: DAZ chose to implement scaling differently (in both DS and Carrara).

Go ahead and try loading Apollo in DS to see what your "proper" rigging does there. It doesn't work. Apollo's scaling also doesn't work in Carrara.

Still with me?

So now, if DAZ had chosen to implement your "proper" rigging which would be compatible with Poser, the kids would no longer work in either DS or Carrara. Do you seriously expect them to do that?

Then you go on to suggest that they should provide separate rigs for their own apps and Poser. Really? Given how small the market is for this kind of stuff, do you think this would make any sense?

Now, one might ask why DAZ chose to implement scaling like they did, instead choosing the method used in Poser. I don't know. There may well be sound technical reasons behind the decision. Has anyone asked them? I know, such a silly notion. A fanboi (whether for DAZ or Poser) isn't interested in the truth, where's the fun in that?

Finally, this isn't any different than what SM did with Poser 8, when they introduced the new rigging features. Maybe DAZ will incorporate those into DS and Carrara, maybe they won't.

With all that out of the way... I'm not all that impressed with the new kids for various reasons.

I was given some advice - I suppose - with the intent to convert me over to DS:

"And to Poser users... if I can learn Poser, then I KNOW you can learn DS"

...to which I responded:
*I will have to take issue with you on that... talk about a closed shop! I tried to get some information on Shader Mixer: the information I was -- seemingly reluctantly -- doled out was anything but helpful. All I was told was that there were no tutorials. Sadly. :glare:

There is a world of difference between this forum (DS) and the Poser forum. The atmosphere of exclusivity reigns supreme here: whilst sharing secrets about how to generate genuine materials in Poser ABOUND in the (I'll let you guess the name) forum, it seems that someone wants to keep the inner working of the Daz's equivalent of the Poser material room a secret reserved for their select group of PAs.

I bought DSAdv with the express purpose to learn and develop shaders for Daz Studio. Based on the answers I've gotten, I feel completely distanced from this community: held at arm's length. I am accustomed to receiving respect and honest answers in my other community. Those-That-Know actually want to see people create something new and different and use Poser's wizardry in the material room and the cloth room to show it off.*

I can't be bothered to learn a programme where when I asked for help on THE reason I bought DSAdv -- Shader Mixer -- the only answer I got is: "there is no tutorial" when it is perfectly clear people are developing sophisticated shaders so someone knows something... they just ain't telling.

---Still Fuming over a monumental waste of time---

Well, I know you were looking for the Bagginsbill of DS and somebody said Fisty might be it, and she very well may know a lot about the DS shaders, but there's a big difference between that and being a Bagginsbill.

The difference is this: I spend an extraordinary amount of time explaining to others how this works. I do not make money from it. I have no commercial products.

No - there is no Bagginsbill for DS.

Quote -

No - there is no Bagginsbill for DS.

And that, IMHO, is a sad thing.  I'm sure there are people (at least 2) out there who are either knowledgeable or willing to learn the shader system...it's...well...are they willing to share their knowledge, or dare I say, teach others what to do?

It, sadly, doesn't seem that way :(

I wonder why she calls herself  "Fisty"

???

RobynsVeil, I didn't spot your questions there at the DAZ forums, not that I could help anyway as I haven't written any original rsl script myself.  Is it this one?
http://forum.daz3d.com/viewtopic.php?t=133078
It seemed to have been resolved amicably enough?

It's probably true there aren't any active ds shader experts in the forums there ... off the top of my head I can only think of 3 people who have put out original ds (rsl) shaders (not just presets) in the store, poseworks, omnifreaker and the other guy... (damn, forgot, sorry... oh!) Arthur Heinz (no wonder I forgot, that's a proper name, imagine that! lol) and none of them are active in the forums recently...  All others are as lost as you are, I imagine.  There's no official documentation from DAZ and sadly there is no bagginsbill (or forum active stewer) equivalent either. lol

Anyway, what I'm saying is I think you're not being stonewalled... it's just nobody knows the answers 8o

(ok... now that's totally off topic to this thread title but my little reply didn't really warrant its own thread lol)

Quote - Bagginsbill says:  I spend an extraordinary amount of time explaining to others how this works. I do not make money from it. I have no commercial products.

No - there is no Bagginsbill for DS.

true.

Funny how thing work out. I was contacted by the DS product team to be a beta tester for DS3A. This happened right after I started working for SM on Poser 8. Prior to that, I had no "conflict of interest" and I probably would have started learning DS3 and posting on it.  But, given the timing, that didn't happen.

It wasn't because SM prevented me from doing it. It was my fear that my insider status with SM could be used to create trouble if by some chance Poser happened to have a new feature that was also a new (unknown) feature of DS3A. I didn't want there to be any chance that anybody could interpret that as feature espionage.

bb, how much would it take to get you to be a double agent?? lol you probably won't remember but I was one (non daz employee) who pm'd you asking if you would do for ds what you do for poser. lol I realise now there's simply no time, regardless of conflict of interest.

I'm thinking ds shader mixer is the equivalent to matmatic, shader builder is... not like anything else.  In ds you can actually define the set of shader attributes but in poser we start with the predefined "poser surface" top node to which you can plug in other predefined nodes.  So there's the main difference.  For ds there was no main node and no set of existing nodes to plug into it, so people tended to write their own shaders (which is in renderman shading language.)  That's the first hurdle.  DAZ came out with shader mixer and shader builder much later.

Gah, sorry, further topic drift!

I like the kids 4, btw. hehehe
(there, back on track?)

Quote - I was given some advice - I suppose - with the intent to convert me over to DS:

"And to Poser users... if I can learn Poser, then I KNOW you can learn DS"

...to which I responded:
*I will have to take issue with you on that... talk about a closed shop! I tried to get some information on Shader Mixer: the information I was -- seemingly reluctantly -- doled out was anything but helpful. All I was told was that there were no tutorials. Sadly. :glare:

There is a world of difference between this forum (DS) and the Poser forum. The atmosphere of exclusivity reigns supreme here: whilst sharing secrets about how to generate genuine materials in Poser ABOUND in the (I'll let you guess the name) forum, it seems that someone wants to keep the inner working of the Daz's equivalent of the Poser material room a secret reserved for their select group of PAs.

I bought DSAdv with the express purpose to learn and develop shaders for Daz Studio. Based on the answers I've gotten, I feel completely distanced from this community: held at arm's length. I am accustomed to receiving respect and honest answers in my other community. Those-That-Know actually want to see people create something new and different and use Poser's wizardry in the material room and the cloth room to show it off.*

I can't be bothered to learn a programme where when I asked for help on THE reason I bought DSAdv -- Shader Mixer -- the only answer I got is: "there is no tutorial" when it is perfectly clear people are developing sophisticated shaders so someone knows something... they just ain't telling.

---Still Fuming over a monumental waste of time---

I assume you've read what was written after this post of yours.

To suggest that DS users are somehow more selfish than Poser users does not make sense to me. Honestly, how would such a situation come about?

I wish we had more bagginsbills, the Carrara camp could certainly use more of those as well :)

a couple of things:

yeah, sorry, D|S users are a little less generous.  almost anyone who knows anything about the program sells either products using it or the knowledge itself.  theSea and Dreamlight are awesome people who provide wonderful, in-depth information for D|S.  but you have to pay to get it.  and you don't have to pay for equivalent information for Poser.  bagginsbill is incredible, but he's only one of the many i've learned from.  SVDL and PhilC have taught me tons about many things, including cloth and dynamics, Geep has taught me some great basic principles, and if i ever want to make rigged props, i'll be going back to his tutorials.   before i was just following bagginsbill, i was reading posts by Ajax, TemplarGFX and others.  at RDNA, i've followed Olivier, and i've listened to Traveler since i started using Poser about a decade ago.   

just about everything about Poser is discussed in forums and given instructions here. people who follow bagginsbill tend to post their findings and results and chime in on threads to help people.  theSea posts wonderful helpful behind the scenes notes with his images, and i've found some other really great D|S tutorials, but they're a lot fewer and farther between than in-depth, technical information for Poser.  and there are people writing plug-ins for D|S, so i know that not all D|S users are totally clueless about how the program actually works.

which gets to Fisty's statement about being the bagginsbill of D|S.  having asked her, Fisty said she meant that she could make good shaders that render well.  not that she could do math with shaders.  at all.  well, that's the heart of bagginsbill's work.  she also didn't mean she'd written several free development tools for D|S users, which bagginsbill has.    i understand that she's proud of her skills, and she should be.  i also understand she's very generous with her skills, which is highly laudable.  but i've done both eyeballing and building shaders from code, and it's not even vaguely the same thing.  and i can't do even a tiny sliver of what bagginsbill does.

how would this situation come about?  really simple: Poser's Python was free and came with the API documentation from the start, and D|S's SDK was very expensive  and closed for a long time.  free development vs. development that needs to make up money and isn't even available to the general population means a more closed community. 

Fisty is great at shaders, but she doesn't know Shader Mixer at all (at least, that's what she told me).  AprilYSH works with D|S a lot, but is quite mistaken about Shader Mixer.  it's equivalent to the Material Room, not Matmatic.  it isn't a way to script materials so that you don't have to worry about making nodes at all.  in Matmatic, the compiler decides how many nodes you actually need to implement a statement like Blend(color1, color2, mask).  that's not at all the same thing as having to work with nodes directly.  the whole point of Matmatic is abstracting to expressions and not needing a GUI.  not to mention, ShaderMixer doesn't have built-in input multiplication.  it has input override.  so any nodes you'd generate from something like a Matmatic script need to be implemented very differently. 

but that's the thing.  the people who really understand stuff like this and build shaders mathematically sell things like HSS and PWSurface.  they don't say: "hey, this is how i made SSS work.  here you go for free."  i'm not saying they should do that, but even face_off wrote a free tutorial on how his Real Skin Shader was built before he sold it.  and all of the other Poser skin shader people i know of  posted their experiments here in the forums.  so yeah, the Poser community tends to be a little more generous, which happens when people don't need to pay more to become experts. 

you can see it in D|S shader support, and when (if?) the tool for making dynamic cloth finally comes out, and costs even more than the tool to edit settings on for dynamic cloth, it will be visible in that area.  not to say that there aren't nice and generous D|S users, but it's just harder and more expensive to get at in-depth D|S knowledge than it is to get at Poser knowledge.  and as a result, a lot of very accomplished D|S users don't actually have in-depth knowledge or understanding, so they can't share it even if they wanted to.

Don't forget that Poser has a longer history. Poser 5's material shaders have been around since 2003. DS only comparatively recently got them. It'll be a while before people become more expert in the DS shaders. Up until DS3, DS hadn't had enough features to compete with Poser, so it was more a starting point for creating art. Once somebody got proficient in DS, they often bought Poser to go further.

It'll be interesting to see how much further DAZ will go to divorce their content from Poser. It doesn't seem that as much Freak 4 content is being produced as was made for the original. I'm curious if the same will happen with the Mil4 Kids.

Frankly, SM needs to fix scaling in Poser. It's been a known problem for quite a while. They don't have to do it to accommodate DAZ, but they need to fix it because it's a flaw in the program. A lot of new 3D graphics users are starting with the free DS and, as that program has gained more features, the need to migrate to Poser gets smaller.

Whlie I don't like DAZ introducing Poser incompatible content, the concept of basing new figures on a single mesh is good because it simplifies sharing clothing amongst the figures.

I have the orignal DAZ kids, and the Mil3 Kids, so I'm in no desperate need to buy lots of content for the new ones if they won't work in Poser. Maybe I'll someday have a compelling reason to learn DS, but that time isn't now.

cobaltdream, that all makes sense.

One thing to consider is how long the shader builder and the SDK have been free. What is it, less than a year? With Poser on the other hand we're talking about years of accumulated experience. Given time I'm pretty sure some progress will be made in this area.

I use DS3 retail version and may give them a try there.
No, I do not understand their shader system as yet.
That may take me a long, long time to learn...lol.

Poser user here. Well it's a good thing I saw this post before I bought the K4 bundle. Now I will not buy any K4 stuff period!!!

The DS3 shading system is based on the Renderman Shading Language. While unfortunately there is no way to import compiled shaders (last time I looked; perhaps things have changed), anyone with a pretty fair understanding of math plus this book can become a formidable procedural shading guru. 

Did I read that right? 656 PAGES???!!!

*as a head morph for V4

*the kid  head has the same poly count and order as V4?

Yep.

Quote - ... unfortunately there is no way to import compiled shaders ...

It's unlikely there ever will be a way to use any old compiled shader, because the shader code has to be compiled by the renderer toolset specific compiler (for D|S that's whatever version of 3Delight is included).