The body proportions and general appearance are pretty wacko, but I don't really have any technical problems any more in P8 SR3 now that scaling is sorted.  I really wish the default shape and proprtions was closer to actual normal human beings and not what is, but on the other hand it's money-driven and DAZ makes what sells the most into the default.  As I'm sure you realize from your texturing experience, having a starting point that is so far away from normal means that when you take the character to a more normal proportion and shape, basically all your textures and conformers are going to get mashed.

It would really have to be a joint effort and have sustained support for the character to really take hold and get wide use.

When DAZ releases a new character, they already have numerous poses, clothes, skins, etc ready for them at the same time.

There are independent models out now....

http://market.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?ViewProduct=79422&vendor=28245

http://market.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?vendor=odegami

But it usually falls on the character's creator to make most of  the content. Whereas Vicki4 has a constant stream of content released daily.

The totally free original characters usually have a beta lifespan and newbie users have to know which version works with which morphs and which new uv map, etc... a lot of newbies may have a hard time using free original content that's always in a kind of beta status.

The great minds of this community could do it though.

Quote - In many ways I agree with PhilC it seems to me that Poser and D/S style art is not about learning the programs and the workings. Instead for many it's wanting a make art button. Just load figures, props and scenes, hit the button and voilá tout c'est bon! I have made the pretty picture.

I think that the whole "people  just want a make art button" argument kind of undermines the amount of work that many people do put into their work, but that's essentially what Poser and Daz Studio are supposed to do,  simple to use 3d figure posing programs. Sure if you delve deeper into the programs you can do more, and if you're really clever like BB or Ockham and can write scripts etc you can create even more wonderous things. But lets face it, if you wanted the type of program that is not "make art", then you would be using a proper 3d modelling program, building and texturing every minute element from scratch. Most people don't have the time or the patience to think or work like that. Why do you think there are so many websites and companies providing pre-built 3d content. Sure you might want to change a few things on it, but say you needed to use a model of the space shuttle, why would you build one from scratch if there was an existing one that would do the job just as well? People that tend to build these things from scratch enjoy the modelmaking process, but possibly not the final art/render side as much, Poser and Daz Studio are for people who prefer the latter.

I used to develop my own films and photographic prints, I enjoyed it, but the truth is that now I use a digital camera, it's less to worry about. I can spend more time thinking about my composition etc and then correct any mistakes without having to start again from scratch. I can be more creative. I can save time, and therefore money.

Quote - Do you guys really think the DAZ Gen 4 figures are ugly or are you frustrated because they're more difficult than they ought to be to use in Poser?

Ugly and, in many (most?) cases, very badly proportioned. 

Maybe there are not so popular figures for Poser because there is not enough Poser market to make figures for?  And there can only be one market standard as far as 3D figure clothes, hair, poses go.  Who is catering more to that 3D figure market?  DAZ or SM?

heres a silly responce to the whole "what if daz stops supporting poser thing".... What if renderosity itself creates its own figure sets ?

With the amount of profit that renderosity makes surely it could afford to hire some 3d modelers and artists with the skills to create a proffessional 3D person(s) series... If they made decent easy to work with models and had the support of most of the popular poser vendors renderosity could have a real money maker....

Just undercut daz and have the bulk of the vendors releasing renderosity 3d figure exclusives... hell renderosity could even give vendors nice "exclusive" profit shares just for the initial support, with the hint of higher profits im sure most vendors would fall in line... with the size of renderosity and the support of the community im sure it could easily do something like this...

Quote - Wouldn't they be cutting off a very strong source of income by making future figures non Poser compatible though...?

Yes & No, Right now there are probably more vocal Poser users around than vocal DS users, but with recent developments like Reality & LuxRender I can see quite a few of them being tempted to switch permanently, heck I've reinstalled DS myself even though I can't get my head round it.

It's long overdue for some of us to learn how to model & texture properly, everything we could ever need to do that is there free or very cheap, are we going to step up to the challenge?

Quote - It's long overdue for some of us to learn how to model & texture properly, everything we could ever need to do that is there free or very cheap, are we going to step up to the challenge?

It's "free" to make your own content in terms of money only.  I don't want to discourage you, but I don't think you have any idea how hard and labor-intensive this stuff is to make, and truly brainbusting to make it work WELL.  There's a good reason that people are willing to pay for content, even mediocre content - the stuff is just brutally hard to learn and execute and it takes a lot of time.  And I'm saying this as someone who has learned it and does execute it.  I'm not trying to scare people off from it, I try to be as helpful as possible for people who want to figure out how to model and rig Poser content.

Quote - Just undercut daz and have the bulk of the vendors releasing renderosity 3d figure exclusives... hell renderosity could even give vendors nice "exclusive" profit shares just for the initial support...

Worth noting that Renderosity already does this with Poser content in general - look at prices for different categories of items here vs. at DAZ.  It certainly isn't bothering DAZ's business too much, and they don't even charge money for the base figures.  Again, not trying to be discouraging, but, well, DAZ kinda has their finger on the majority's pulse (as sad as that is).

Stepping in to get my head chopped off...

I like the Victoria4 figure. Oh, she took some getting used to, but what I find attractive is her versatility. By which I mean what's been made for her, both in the freebie arena and commercially. There's just so MUCH... I have gigabytes of stuff to play with... stuff I haven't even unzipped. Like BasicWiz, I reckon I'm set until the Greens are voted in here in Oz.

However, as I said before, V4 did require some getting used to. One can get used to just about anything, I guess: a toothache, cold weather, being pregnant, Blender... well, maybe not Blender :lol: but anyway, with all her vagaries, I got used to V4 simply because there's so much that's been made for her and what one can do for her and with her.

Now, most of my poses with her are of her in some standing position. She doesn't bend right - not her arms, not her legs: Antonia wins in that ability challenge, hands (and feet) down. Terai Yuki 2 wins in the charm department. But like when I bring out Miki 2 to play, I keep running into limitations. Same with Terai.

So, here's the thing... (see, I say that too, Laurie :biggrin:) I'm going to guess - haven't really had a close look but people seem to think this is significant - that the overwhelming problem with non-Daz figures are the lack of morphs and dials available. What's involved in adding some to say Alison (sp?) or some of the other Poser-natives? I'm talking heaps more facial stuff, morphs galore. More dials than V. What indeed is involved in making them?

Someone makes those - and also for older figures... that would suddenly breathe a lot more life into them. Who the heck needs V4 then? Wee doan need no steenkeeng V4!

Tedious to make, you say? Teach ME and I'll make them. Or we could make this a community effort... you Laurie do the mouth area, you Paul do the brows, I'll muck around with cheeks, let Fred there clean up the ears, and Glenda... ummmmmmmmmm, you can do textures, Glenda... you're GOOD at that!

Whaddaya say?

Quote - It's "free" to make your own content in terms of money only.  I don't want to discourage you, but I don't think you have any idea how hard and labor-intensive this stuff is to make, and truly brainbusting to make it work WELL.  There's a good reason that people are willing to pay for content, even mediocre content - the stuff is just brutally hard to learn and execute and it takes a lot of time.  And I'm saying this as someone who has learned it and does execute it.  I'm not trying to scare people off from it, I try to be as helpful as possible for people who want to figure out how to model and rig Poser content.

I had one freebie to my old name for Poser 4, nothing special but it took weeks & weeks to get right, laziness got the better of me & I quit after that, I think that's part of why we're facing this potential loss of Poser.

Well, I haven't bought any content in a long, long time. :laugh:

I think I agree with what lesbentley said: if DAZ stopped making Poser-compatible figures, someone else would fill the niche.

Quote - heres a silly responce to the whole "what if daz stops supporting poser thing".... What if renderosity itself creates its own figure sets ?

RENDA 2

I like this though, commission or buy a figure (Angela e.g.) and pump money into having clothes and stuff made even if they don't sell much at first. Eventually you'd have well-rounded figure support and some people would make her their staple

Quote - Wouldn't they be cutting off a very strong source of income by making future figures non Poser compatible though...?

Sorry but that is just Wishful thinking  IMHO.
I see ZERO evidence that DAZ is still so Financially dependent on poser users
that ending poser support with be "financial suicide"

Spend some time over at the DAZ Forums.

I have never seen a group of people so
hopelessy addicted to Compulsive buying of content.
The DAZ business model has never been to keep
poser users IMHO and recent technical developments make it obvious to me at least that a Complete abandonment of poser support
is inevitable.

as long as SM wants to keep supporting DAZ figures and DAZ doesn't try to implement crucial things that could never be made to work in Poser, crisis should be avoided

If V5 has major problems in Poser I'll change my mind.

I wouldn't judge DAZ's market based on the forums... plenty of those people are Poser users for one thing...

Quote - Sorry but that is just Wishful thinking  IMHO.
I see ZERO evidence that DAZ is still so Financially dependent on poser users
that ending poser support with be "financial suicide"

I don't think they're exactly financially dependent, but they'd be throwing away a pretty massive portion of their profits if they diverged from Poser completely.  I think they could afford to do this but they'd be morons if they did, and as wonky as DAZ are about some things, "Let's make less money" doesn't seem to be one of their core business objectives.

"I dunno, it seems like the management between EF/Smith Micro and DAZ have shaken hands and agreed to go a bit closer together with Poser 8, SM finally got the damn conforming scale stuff working pretty well.  Maybe they decided to do that on their own but it was a huge favor to DAZ and will end up making a ton of money for both parties"

It was done through mutual collaboration.

Ok, here's a paradox. Some people don't seem to be too fond of the DAZ figures. On the other hand, they don't appear to be crazy about the Poser figures either. So what exactly do they want? And before anyone answers, I can guarantee that if you ask 100 people that question, you'll get maybe 10 of them who actually agree on a similar figure type.

I'm all for 3rd-party development, but you also have to ask yourself why the DAZ figures get so much support. Obviously, it's partly because they're now an established 'brand', but even more so is the fact that they're FREE. That's the clincher. And yes, you can say it's an evil plot to sell morph packs or whatever. Doesn't matter a hoot. It works. IIRC, V4 was downloaded 10,000 times in the first couple of weeks. Of course vendors support her. Wouldn't you be looking to sell to 10,000 people?

Before any 3rd-party figure can compete, it would need to be free, heavily promoted and supported, and of course, better than anything else around. Given that figure modelling is now done by large teams of people, to say nothing of using expensive body scans for textures, I think the likelihood of any one person, or small group of people matching those resources is slim - not impossible, but slim.

I also have to agree with what DarrenUK said about the various approaches to 3d art and content. There's a certain vein of snobbery in a lot of people who make comments along the lines of  "Oh, that's just click and render art", etc. In fact, an often-expressed train of thought here in these forums is that the entire DAZ community are just a bunch of mindless morons who shell out good money for the same products over and over again.

What these people seem to forget is that this is a hobby - You know? Something that people do for fun? Many people have no interest in getting into the guts of software, editing and hacking the files, spending hours making complex node setups. They're quite happy to use pre-made content, apply the MATs that come with it, and get a nice render. What exactly is the problem with that? If they're happy doing it, that's ok. No need to refer to them as 'sheep' and other derogatory names. Let them get on with it, and you do whatever you want to do.

And for the record, I've been at this for over 12 years, and I'm quite happy to spend long hours editing files, if necessary. I just don't expect everyone to do the same.

mac

Quote - It was done through mutual collaboration.

That doesn't surprise me and I think it was a smart move, glad to hear that.

I believe I can answer the OP since I use Carrara pretty much exclusively.

If DAZ stops supporting Poser (I think it's a stretch to think there's much concern about Poser and it's users in the DAZ organization anyway, but that's a different topic), then Poser users will do what I have always done - work around the minor annoyances created by using objects intended for another software package.

I would say that 95% of my content is Poser or DAZ centric.  This means things don't always import properly, shaders are nearly always off and morphs frequently don't work.  I won't give up the advantages of Carrara, so I just bring the content in any way I can, fix it, and save it in Carrara for future use.

This means clearing up bumps, highlights and properly assigning textures in shaders.
It involves opening items with external morphs in Poser, turning off external morphs, and saving them again so the bloody morphs work.
On the plus side, in Carrara it is very easy to make adjustments and new morphs for the mesh on the fly and then save them in the modified object file.

I suspect that is what Poser users will do if DAZ continues to move away from Poser interoperability.

On a final thought, this will create opportunities for "fixes" like the simple armpit correction.

Klebnor

When CDs replaced vinyl, people followed the content. The comparison is far from perfect for a number of reasons. CDs offered greater convenience and, to most non-audiophiles, superior sound quality. Unlike Poser, People did not have many hours invested in learning how to use a turntable and there was only a minor learning curve to the new technology. Still, it is not unreasonable to expect that a number of users, especially the newer ones might simply follow the new content and move to DS. The more that you believe the market is content driven, the more likely that is to be true.

It is in the interests of both companies to cooperate. In the past Daz has not has a long term stable partner to work with, only a succession of different ones – perhaps one of the reasons Studio was created to begin with. Assuming Smith Micro is in it for the long haul, cooperation seems like the smart thing. The balance of power has shifted though. Daz is in a position (with DS) where they can at least think about going it alone. They may feel more comfortable making changes and leaving SM to adopt them or be shut out. SM could restore the balance by creating figures that represented a more credible defensive threat.

If a war breaks out, who has the upper hand? SM has application lock in with existing users who are reluctant to switch to DS because of the interface or the capabilities. Daz has content lock in because an awful lot of people like their figures and the abundance of accessories. What happens in Laurie’s scenario, if Daz pulls the trigger?

People are talking about someone stepping in to fill the vacuum. I’m afraid it might be more like the Balkans after the fall for the former Soviet Union, or Iraq after the fall of Saddam, at least in the short term. There is little if any history that I see of a single independent figure achieving critical mass. Maya Doll was quite popular but even at her peak only a small fraction of people probably used her. Renderosity creating a figure? Maybe, it didn’t work for Renderotica with Dina but Renderosity is a lot bigger. To match Daz, you need a family of figures, whether based on a single mesh or not. You need massive support, which means content creators either have to abandon the Daz market or try to produce quality products for both. You need a large number of people willing to buy in early on, including a lot of ‘click art’ people because the number of independent hacker/tweakers isn’t likely to get it done revenue wise IMO. Most importantly, you need central coordination. When the bomb falls, it’s gonna be the wild west. Maybe it can be Renderosity. It should be SM, but it has to be somebody who will wrangle all the things that Daz does now, research, conceptualize, design, create, market, coordinate independent content etc. IF that can be done, then it needs to be tested/proven/done now, not when the hammer falls. I know there’s nothing like getting shot at to focus the attention, but we have two excellent figures in Apollo and Antonia. If the community can’t get them above the traditional status of niche figures then I’m not optimistic about the results come doomsday.

Of course, I’m assuming that something on the order of the Daz business model would be required, not only to retain existing users, but more importantly attract new ones. Could Poser retain its popularity with something resembling the current 3rd party figure market? Not from your personal POV and what you could or would do but from the perspective of all users or as a SM stockholder.

Quote - When CDs replaced vinyl, people followed the content. The comparison is far from perfect for a number of reasons. CDs offered greater convenience and, to most non-audiophiles, superior sound quality. Unlike Poser, People did not have many hours invested in learning how to use a turntable and there was only a minor learning curve to the new technology. Still, it is not unreasonable to expect that a number of users, especially the newer ones might simply follow the new content and move to DS. The more that you believe the market is content driven, the more likely that is to be true.

It is in the interests of both companies to cooperate. In the past Daz has not has a long term stable partner to work with, only a succession of different ones – perhaps one of the reasons Studio was created to begin with. Assuming Smith Micro is in it for the long haul, cooperation seems like the smart thing. The balance of power has shifted though. Daz is in a position (with DS) where they can at least think about going it alone. They may feel more comfortable making changes and leaving SM to adopt them or be shut out. SM could restore the balance by creating figures that represented a more credible defensive threat.

If a war breaks out, who has the upper hand? SM has application lock in with existing users who are reluctant to switch to DS because of the interface or the capabilities. Daz has content lock in because an awful lot of people like their figures and the abundance of accessories. What happens in Laurie’s scenario, if Daz pulls the trigger?

People are talking about someone stepping in to fill the vacuum. I’m afraid it might be more like the Balkans after the fall for the former Soviet Union, or Iraq after the fall of Saddam, at least in the short term. There is little if any history that I see of a single independent figure achieving critical mass. Maya Doll was quite popular but even at her peak only a small fraction of people probably used her. Renderosity creating a figure? Maybe, it didn’t work for Renderotica with Dina but Renderosity is a lot bigger. To match Daz, you need a family of figures, whether based on a single mesh or not. You need massive support, which means content creators either have to abandon the Daz market or try to produce quality products for both. You need a large number of people willing to buy in early on, including a lot of ‘click art’ people because the number of independent hacker/tweakers isn’t likely to get it done revenue wise IMO. Most importantly, you need central coordination. When the bomb falls, it’s gonna be the wild west. Maybe it can be Renderosity. It should be SM, but it has to be somebody who will wrangle all the things that Daz does now, research, conceptualize, design, create, market, coordinate independent content etc. IF that can be done, then it needs to be tested/proven/done now, not when the hammer falls. I know there’s nothing like getting shot at to focus the attention, but we have two excellent figures in Apollo and Antonia. If the community can’t get them above the traditional status of niche figures then I’m not optimistic about the results come doomsday.

Of course, I’m assuming that something on the order of the Daz business model would be required, not only to retain existing users, but more importantly attract new ones. Could Poser retain its popularity with something resembling the current 3rd party figure market? Not from your personal POV and what you could or would do but from the perspective of all users or as a SM stockholder.

 

My thoughts EXACTLY. You said it better tho ;o).

Laurie

"Could Poser retain its popularity with something resembling the current 3rd party figure market?"

Simple question: what makes those Daz characters popular amongst those who do like them?
a. Daz's marketing scheme? give 'em out free, and charge little for supporting stuff like morphs and like that?
b. the broad range of morphs included in the package? would it be hard to provide/develop something similar for Poser-natives or 3d-party figures?
c. the fact that they are currently Poser compatible and reasonably easy to use (well-supported)?

You only have to look at dynamic cloth - which I am currently struggling with, and I mean struggling! - versus conforming cloth for clues how a well-supported figure will gain in popularity over one for which support is sketchy. (I'm reading two tutorials on our tutorials page: one is for Poser 5 claim to be dead easy, but I'm solidly confused right at the get-go with talk about draping ... there is no drape button in my version of Poser ... and the other involves a dress that I need to shell out money for, which I'm not about to do since I'm not all that enchanted with the whole concept yet -- easy-to-use, PAH! plus the tutorial has images where I can't even make up the words on them, since they've been scaled down in size, with resultant loss in detail). In case you've missed it, my enthusiasm for dynamic is shrinking and it wasn't all that great to begin with.

I warrant that this is the experience of most Poser users and that is why dynamics haven't caught on with the bulk of Poser users... only those who battle on finally have the penny drop, and then they all claim it's dead easy.

Which means I'm an idiot, because I'm just not getting it.

Victoria 4 is easy to use. She may not be accurate but jeez-louise, she really is point-and-click.

Okay, back to my struggling. If I can get my head around nodes and maths, this should eventually COME.

Robyn, dynamic cloth does take some getting used to. I won't insult your intelligence by saying it's dead easy, but it does get "easier" ;o). It just takes some major fiddling to get used to it...hehe. If you need any help, just shoot me a sitemail.

Laurie

i haven't gotten all the use i could have out of V3, let alone V4.  i mean, texture sales, that would be an issue.  that said, V4's been out a long time, and the most popular textures for her right now are very conventional.   i think quality work for the latest version of Vicky that worked in Poser would remain popular.

Antonia seems pretty high quality and has pretty good support for a figure that isn't even to a 1.0 version yet.

i think it would be a case of adapt or die for the community.  and i can't say which way it would go. but if the community died off, then death would be very slow.

i suspect that even if no new versions or figures came out for Poser, there would still be a pretty significant community and market for some time to come.  i mean, i keep seeing people complain about losing the P4 renderer.  the main reason we get new figures is all the cool new stuff we want to buy that works on them.  right now there are nearly 6000 people on this site, and most of numbers seem to be from the Poser community.  the Vue forum is more active than the DS forum.   Poser users stay pretty well behind the leading edge of Poser use or even just Poser versions.  the bulk of the market runs on users who buy on impulse and want to spend no longer than an hour waiting for a render.  look at the top viewed, rated, and favorited images. you'll see lots of incredible technique, but most of it is 2D, not 3D.

i think anyone who wanted to try to make money off the exceedingly disgruntled Poser users would have several years to do so.  the more entitled, demanding, and emotionally volatile aspect of the community would actually work in the favor of independent development for once.  if DAZ completely dropped Poser support, or even made flagship figures that didn't work very well in Poser, it would open a major door to independent developers.  i mean, can you imagine if there were no DAZ males for Poser when Apollo came out?  Anton said he sold over 1000 copies during his release sale.   considering how many independent figures i already have in my runtime, my guess is people would be scrambling to fill that niche.

i think we'd have a chance at breaking our DAZ dependence and seeing the emergence of stronger independent developers.  this community isn't big on change as drastic as switching to DS, and even more importantly, mostly doesn't need it anything Poser 6 can't do right now. if tomorrow all versions of Poser were updated to use Vray as a renderer, people would still render without shadows. 

Interesting hypothetical from the original post... what will Poser users, who currently use DAZ content*, do if they can't/won't use DS and/or DAZ content anymore.  Hmm, most 3d assets are importable and useable in most 3d apps already.  Anyway, it was an interesting question  ;)

(*otherwise it wouldn't be relevant)

What's also interesting to me is this excerpt:

Quote - LaurieA wrote: Do we all become traitors and drop Poser for DS? Some of us will, I'm sure, but what about those that love Poser and don't care to jump ship?

Why is there a stigma of "traitor" if you use DS too/instead?  Why must there be an "us vs them" ?  They're just tools.  shrug

Quote - When CDs replaced vinyl, people followed the content.

Nothing was better than the 78 RPM discs with their characteristic frequency modulation and pop,   tick and crack special effects. It were also ecological because didn't use any kind of plastic and no need for BP.

Sadly things change and more dramatics changes will come. The next generation of figures will be Universal figures, in other words only two figures that will fulfill all the needs: the Mao male figure and the Chung-Li female figure (no gays are allowed). For what do you need different figures if all look the same?

Or something could happen to either app like what happened with Bryce while Corel owned it.  Corel just sat on it and did nothing for a long time.  Other 3D terrain programs played catchup during that time.  Say SM releases Poser 9 now and no one here can really tell what the reason for getting it is.  So they stick with Poser 8 that has the best SR5 or whatever and it just works.  Would you say SM is just sitting on Poser then and allowing other 3D figure apps to catchup and/or pass it by?

I'm thinking that some companies let their apps slip behind the curve.  Then it is too late for them to be on top again.

Quote - What's also interesting to me is this excerpt:

Quote - LaurieA wrote: Do we all become traitors and drop Poser for DS? Some of us will, I'm sure, but what about those that love Poser and don't care to jump ship?

Why is there a stigma of "traitor" if you use DS too/instead?  Why must there be an "us vs them" ?  They're just tools.  shrug

Figure of speech. That's all I meant by it. Pehaps the wrong one, but oh well.

Laurie

This is the Poser forum, afterall.

RobynsVeil, you can't drape in place in Poser. You gotta animate that.

Well your animation doesn't actually have to contain any change in pose, so you can still do it (unless I don't understand what you mean).

I'd tell you what I'd do, Laurie...

I'd keep using Krystal and Terai Yuki 2. :D

And keep struggling to make Miki look like a feasible model to use.

Hmm...  Interesting read.

If there was a Figure Apocalypse:

I think "some" people would move over to DAZ but I think for the most part, people would still be in the "camp" that they are in right now: "Only use DS", "Only use Poser" and "Use a Bit of Both" (which this camp still would have folks that strongly lean towards Poser or DS)  I think folks are inherently stubborn and if they haven't moved already, this will not make them move. Program features or drawbacks are more likely to make someone go elsewhere.

I do strongly feel that somehow the void would be filled.  A figure might be a strong reason to use an app but I don't at all think that it's the prime reason.  At the same time that folks gravitate towards a single figure, they also gravitate towards variety and flexibility.

I agree with a flagship figure (base) will need to be free to have a chance.  This is the bar that we are looking at.  You can't go lower than FREE unless you include more for free than the other guy.

You would need to match or excel the flexibility and basic feature set of the leading figure, including bending ability and user friendliness.

You must have core support from the get-go.  You might not need everything all at once, up front, but you would need to have a core group of individuals, preferrably with some big names in there (not essential as all big names were once little names), who maybe were in on the design team that will pledge support for the figure.

I would love to see this and if it looked serious, I would be along for the ride.

I think the most important thing is that any flagship figure needs competition.  All softwares need competition.  I truly believe it makes better programs or figures when those things are on the line.

i think the question of who would make the new figures is kind of moot, though.  frankly, i don't find V4 a step forward from V3.  i find the content for her a step forward.  i find there to be some useful improvements in V4, but honestly most people don't take advantage of them.  mainly, the community makes the same sort of art and same sort of products we did with V3.  so i don't really see a compelling community need for a better figure than V4. and to me it looks like DAZ has plateaued on their female figures.  i mean, cool new stuff, but just as many losses as gains.  imho, M4 is way better than M3, but i feel the same way about David.

i've been going through my runtimes recently, and the main improvements have been figure independent.  more detailed textures with less artifacts.  more texture sets with bump, specular, and displacement.  better clothing topology.  clothing with more features.  none of that needed a new figure.  a new figure needed those benefits to make people walk away from hundreds or even thousands of dollars of collected content.

i'd love a much more realistic figure than V4 or M4.  i could do tons with it.  and i certainly think the market exists for such a figure.  i will do my best to support any quality new figures.  i totally endorse efforts by any and all to fill the niche if and when DAZ leaves Poser behind (and yeah, i've thought this was coming since DS was announced, too).  but all this talk about what a new figure would need to do seems beside the point, because the majority of Poser users don't need as much as they have now. 

and i think Netherworks is right about people not changing their minds.  if the traffic here were getting lower, or the DS forum was more popular, i'd say that the Poser community couldn't survive on its own.  but as it is, better than V4 is dessert.  i mean, we all love dessert, but we don't need it to survive.  if V5 doesn't support Poser well, i suspect about as many people will switch to DS as totally boycott DAZ in a fit of pique.    and all those Poser users will use V4 until something better comes along.  breaking the figure upgrade cycle, but not the content upgrade cycle. i very much doubt that no one will make new V4 textures if there's still a big market for them.  same goes for clothes, props, etc. 

content drives the market, but the figures aren't the primary content. they're just part of the platform. 

I migrated from V3 to V4 because V4 does such great face morphs (and expressions). I truly don't think I gave V3 enough of a chance, though. And really, I don't think the last word has been said about either of these figures. True, V4 doesn't bend well... but who's to say someone isn't going to come up with a fix for that. Or a fix for some other aspects of V4 that will make her more of the figure she could have been.

I so wish I could sort out how expression/facial and other morphs are made so I could make them not only for V4 but also for TY2 and Miki2 (she needs a lot of de-Miki-ising) and some of the really awesome figures like Antonia. Now that I have PP2010, might have another go at doing morphs in Blender and importing, now that I'm getting a handle on the Cloth Room.

We already have a lot of figures... most have not had their potential totally exhausted.

Quote -  So what we need to do is support poser. everybody needs to make a prop, morph, texture, or hair for one of the poser people.  If everyone here did that the poser people would have as much stuff as the daz ones do. and maybe they could have a variety of cloths, not just bras and thongs.

I still DO make things for the Poser people. I just no longer release them. It didn't pay as a merchant and I got no joy giving them away for free because I never saw them used.

Quote - It is not the fact that it is a name, it is the fact that they bend in the middle of the forearm ;) I like parts of the G2 series (mainly the heads) but anything below the neck has a lot of issues if you want to bend them.

And those issues can be dealt with if you learn to use the new capsule falloff zones in Poser 8 and Poser Pro 2010. I still prefer the Poser content to that of DAZ because it seems easier to work with and learn from "for me".

Quote - and I find myself using Alyson and Ryan when I need a Human Figure more and more, now that I have created some Normal Maps and Morphs for them.

I'd love to know how to make those Normal Maps!

Quote -
 In any case, who really cares?  It's not like the existing models wear out, is it?

And with over 120Gigs of content I can live with that!

Quote - what happens when Daz and SM diverge to the point we can't use Daz figures.

For those of us not driven to buy the next pair of panties, nothing really happens. We just keep enjoying and using the Gigs and Gigs of content we already have. I know I won't be buying any more DAZ figures any time soon.

Quote - While that might do you for a period of time, are you going to be using V4 10 years from now? When the figure looks dated, no longer is supported and, more likely, won't even work in a future version of Poser? ;o) She barely works in the current version of Poser...lmao.
Laurie

Now that's a bit of over exageration. V3 works just fine in the current versions of Poser and if you are brave enough to play with the new capsule falloff zones you can even make the Mil2 shoulders look decent! Not to mention Poser 2 figures still work just FINE in Poser 8 and Poser pro 2010, even better with the ability to morph and re-rig them inside Poser itself!

Quote - We already have a lot of figures... most have not had their potential totally exhausted.

And that SHOULD be the final word on the subject but it won't be. Those who are driven to buy buy buy will continue to do so until their wallets fry or they burn out on the hobby. Heaven forbid people actually learn to use what they have to it's fullest potential. The rest of us will continue pushing our existing content to the next levels and sharing if we're not driven from the forums by intolerance for our passions as DPHoadley was.

Normal maps and bump maps are functionally the same, just normal maps can't really be done by hand.  They don't work the same way but they obtain the same effect.  Displacement maps actually do something profoundly different, I think you may want to look into those - you can paint those by hand, it's not really any different from painting a bump map.  You can also use a sculpting app that can export displacement maps, like Zbrush can.

Quote - For those of us not driven to buy the next pair of panties, nothing really happens. We just keep enjoying and using the Gigs and Gigs of content we already have. I know I won't be buying any more DAZ figures any time soon.

It's certainly true there are people who stop consuming, e.g. I mostly have also - we have zero influence on what DAZ and other major content makers will do, because since we do not contribute demand, they won't cater to us with supply.  We have our opinions but they have no impact on the world ;)  Not saying that to be harsh, I'm in the same category with you, just our opinions will be ignored by any sane business.

Quote -
It's certainly true there are people who stop consuming, e.g. I mostly have also - we have zero influence on what DAZ and other major content makers will do, because since we do not contribute demand, they won't cater to us with supply.  We have our opinions but they have no impact on the world ;)  Not saying that to be harsh, I'm in the same category with you, just our opinions will be ignored by any sane business.

You have a strange way of spelling "untapped market".

Quote - It's certainly true there are people who stop consuming, e.g. I mostly have also - we have zero influence on what DAZ and other major content makers will do, because since we do not contribute demand, they won't cater to us with supply.  We have our opinions but they have no impact on the world ;)  Not saying that to be harsh, I'm in the same category with you, just our opinions will be ignored by any sane business.

I don't think that's harsh at all, however I wasn't really catered to much when I was a consumer either since most of my figures of preference were the ones that came with Poser to begin with. I don't say that out of anger over it though. I discovered that, since I wasn't being catered to, I learned to do a lot of things myself. Frankly, I'm better off for that.

Quote - > Quote -

It's certainly true there are people who stop consuming, e.g. I mostly have also - we have zero influence on what DAZ and other major content makers will do, because since we do not contribute demand, they won't cater to us with supply.  We have our opinions but they have no impact on the world ;)  Not saying that to be harsh, I'm in the same category with you, just our opinions will be ignored by any sane business.

You have a strange way of spelling "untapped market".

There is that too...but personally, I'm finding less and less can get me to buy content as I learn to make more on my own.

I've become a non-consumer in recent years as well actually...

Laurie

Quote - You have a strange way of spelling "untapped market".

How am I an untapped market when I don't buy anything at all?  It's not that I have a big urge to consume stuff and there is no stuff that I want to consume - I stopped being a consumer and became a producer.  If there is something I want, then I model and rig it (and usually either give it away or sell it).  Maybe you didn't mean me in particular though, or content producers in general, I dunno.

And since I'm now a producer, albeit on a small scale, I understand totally why other producers like DAZ will produce what consumers want.  They've been selling this stuff for quite a long time now and as wonky as the current crop of figures looks, it pains me to say it - that's what the majority of buyers demand.  Why do you think V4 is their default and the one they put out for sale first, and Stephanie is a morph/scale change a few years later?  Why do you think they haven't even done a David 4 yet?  Low sales for the previous iterations, compared to much higher for the 6'4" DD-breast Barbie.  DAZ are not a charity or a religious instituion, and they aren't managed by stupid people.  Money is their only real goal, just like any business.

Quote - I discovered that, since I wasn't being catered to, I learned to do a lot of things myself. Frankly, I'm better off for that.

And so am I!

I'll have to admit: I'm a happy little shopper, enticed by pretty pictures and the promises they contain. Half the time, those promises are broken, but it doesn't seem to stop me. :blink:

What I seem to be buying mostly these days are items I think I can convert to my purposes, via Blender and Obj2Cr2 and Morphing Clothes, and then mucking around with the shaders. I almost never use items as they come out of the box. So I guess the promises really apply only whilst shopping... :lol:

Im a noob to poser, bout 1 year. but been 3d modeling with AutoCAD since about 2000 and Viz since about 2006, so I do know my way around software.

I do notice the level of support for DAZ figures and nearly a nonexistant market for Poser characters, EVEN inside of content paradise. I thought to myself jeez, what kind of business provides more support for a "competing model" than its own, on its own site? Vicky is ok, but honestly I should be able to get at least the same level of support for SydneyG2 on Content Paradise.

I think Poser has a lot of potential, and will be upgrading to pro 2010 in the near future. I think the hottest thing ive seen for SydneyG2 is the Jasmina morphs and ultimate headmorphs from Runtime DNA. Combined with a few tweaks in the faceroom, and some portability to Mudbox, I am pretty much entrenched in the SM Poser camp.

I would like to see more for the G2 figures, i do have victoria 4.2, and she is really versatile, but its pretty obvious that the perception of which model is "better" is really a matter of smart marketing. Daz has the edge for sure, but I like the G2 figures better.

Quote - I think Poser has a lot of potential, and will be upgrading to pro 2010 in the near future. I think the hottest thing ive seen for SydneyG2 is the Jasmina morphs and ultimate headmorphs from Runtime DNA. Combined with a few tweaks in the faceroom, and some portability to Mudbox, I am pretty much entrenched in the SM Poser camp.

I would like to see more for the G2 figures, i do have victoria 4.2, and she is really versatile, but its pretty obvious that the perception of which model is "better" is really a matter of smart marketing. Daz has the edge for sure, but I like the G2 figures better.

Yeah you'll find RDNA has the best overall support for the Poser built in character content when it comes to Morph packages. For clothing for them you still can't beat a good PoserWorld subscription!

Quote - > Quote - You have a strange way of spelling "untapped market".

How am I an untapped market when I don't buy anything at all?  It's not that I have a big urge to consume stuff and there is no stuff that I want to consume - I stopped being a consumer and became a producer.  If there is something I want, then I model and rig it (and usually either give it away or sell it).  Maybe you didn't mean me in particular though, or content producers in general, I dunno.

I meant it more generally. You said something about us not contributing demand simply because we are not buyers. I just don't think that's how marketing departments think. If I were DAZ, I'd be immensely interested in people's reasons to stop buying my products. For all I know, it might be quite easy to change my marketing or extend my product range just a little bit in order to catch their interest again. Also, I'd be very keen on keeping my current customers from running away, as well.

Of course it might not be lucrative for DAZ to cater specifically to people like you, or me, or Laurie. But that's a different story.

"if we're not driven from the forums by intolerance for our passions as DPHoadley was."

When did this happen? I'll admit to being puzzled by his insistence that Posette was better than any version of Victoria, but I don't remember anyone being intolerant towards him.

I suspect it was his political views rather than his opinions on figures that got him booted, but no one will say and we're not allowed to ask.