I have heard of this trick using edge lender nodes and subtract nodes to achieve a "halo" effect on an object. I am unsure if I had misunderstood the reference or not, but this sounds exactly like an effect I have been trying to achieve for some time. I have been scouring tutorials and shader discusion threads for the exact reference of this trick for some time, and I have also been experimenting trying to replicate what's discussed - but no luck on either point. I am not sure if I am doing something wrong, or I just misunderstood the effect it produced. If anyone has a link to where this trick is described, or a tutorial with it, or knows of it and can explain how to connect the nodes properly I would be very appreciative.

Would you be willing to show us a screenshot of the node setup you're proposing/attempting, as well as a render to illustrate the effect?

If I knew how to get the effect, or how the node setup is supposed to look, I wouldn't need help. All I know is I have seen this "trick" referred to, and am trying to find more information on how it is achieved. The effect I understand it to have is to create a colored halo of sorts around the surface it is used on. I have had no luck achieving this with the many attempts to set it up myself. Then I also do not know what order or locations to connect the nodes through, which surface attribute in the tree to link it through (I have been trying transparancy), etc...

You can't create anything "around" a mesh with a shader. You can create effects on the mesh, but not affect any 3D space not occupied by the mesh.

Perhaps you're thinking of a second prop. For example, it is common to create "wizard balls" by using two spheres. One for the actual glass or metal ball, and another larger one mounted in the same position with an edge blend glow to it.

Is that what you want? It's pretty simple if so.

It sounds like he wants the outside parts of the object itself to glow, not another object around it.

 

BTW, try connecting the node set up to the ambient channel for starters.

I think you mean this one:

Quote - Perhaps you're thinking of a second prop.

No. I am asking specifically about a shader node trick that I have seen mentioned in passing, but never can find a tutorial for - at least not one compatible with Poser. The places and times it was mentioned, and in it's context, it definately seemed to indicate it would create a fake aura or glow.

Since the shaders do act as filters for raytracing, it is fully possible for them to create post processing effects (ie. glows, luminescence, etc...). This is a direct quote from Smith Micro's telephone technical support. Though for asd far as how exactly to achieve this, they could not tell me other than to scour forums and trial and error.

Quote - I think you mean this one:

Thanks, I'll give that a try.  I had been trying connecting through transparancy as the edge blend node is generally asociated with transparancy.

noxiart-

Thank you for the screenshot. It was very helpful once I tried that setup. While not the effect I was hoping to achieve, I see how it could be the effect that was being described in the references to this trick and how I may have misunderstood. It has, however, given me a few other ideas to test from, using the shaders.

Attached Link: http://forum.daz3d.com/viewtopic.php?t=139728&highlight=ghost

Here is the thread over at DAZ where the shader is discussed:

IMVHO OP wants an object which creates an aura around object, as ment. by bill.

an atmospheric fx.

Quote - IMVHO OP wants an object which creates an aura around object, as ment. by bill.

an atmospheric fx.

As I already said in reply to Bill, no, that is not what I want. I was looking for a specific shader reference.

Ok, thanks to you ***noxiart***, that first screenshot was it, though it was not the actual effect I was hoping for. That thread reference was useful though. I have been playing with it and modifying it, as I am convinced you can get a halo effect with the right combination of shader nodes - now more than ever. Here's a screenshot of what I have achieved so far. I have been working on the glow in this wraith's eyes. I am so very close, and there is some amount of rendered color bleed between the red of the eyes and the white of the face, though very hard to notice (only a few pixels here and there).

o.k., maybe OP wants the eyes to emit lite and illuminate the surfaces adjacent to them.  the way to do this is to use IDL with ambient channel or translucent channel.  there's one with IDL/GI and glowing eyes (poser 7) on my home page, but it looks alot better in poser 8 and later.  poser atmosphere (at present) only works with spotlltes.  it don't work with point lites nor with IDL.

I already said I was looking for a specific node trick, it was provided but did not have the effect I thought from previous mentions (though close).  I know those other suggestions already, not what I am looking for, or to do exactly, that is why I have tried to be specific in all of my replies.

Also to my knowledge Poser 7 does not have IDL or GI options inately, those were added in Poser 8.

yes, a merchant sold GUI script to activate GI (IDL) render in poser 7 sr3.  only 0.1% of users knew about it.  very slow, alotta artifacts.  IIRC it didn't run to completion on most windows machines.  24 hrs later it would still be churning away for some of them.  now  GIcalcs use ~same variables in poser8/PP2010, but it's 1000000X faster.  same merchant ment. above wrote FFRender script that comes with poser8/PP2010.  however, IDL calcs are limited to diffuse, hence specular fx are excluded (e.g. red hilites on the face from the glowing eyes), nor will they add indirect specular to poser 9 IMVHO.

I did look around and found some GI python scripts, but those would do me no good in the long run, as they are not strictly Poser-Native.  Being that, they would most likely not work properly with the Poser Queue Manager for network render. They also seem to have a high crash rate and cause instability (especially with Point lights which I use a lot of).  While that would be nice for luminous surfaces, that is not strictly what I am trying for, I'm trying for more of a Halo or Color bleed that resembles the glow outline effect in Lightwave.  Additionally there are many reasons I would like to crack it as a shader node trick.  A big one is, if I can find the right combination of nodes to cause a surfaces color to "bleed" onto or effect adjacent surfaces, then it opens up a new world of effects possibilities (similar to surface effectors in Lightwave).  With some of the surfaces I wish for this to be done with, added geometry is too clunky, time consuming, or sometimes downright impractical to use for a haze/halo.  For the surface effector type trick - well - there is nothing for Poser like it yet.

Mainly, by generating an in-render effect, I can save much time in post processing effects.  This is especially useful given I do a lot of animation primarily. I had heard mentions of that Edge blend trick and what it described sounded a lot like what I was looking for - but could not find specifics myself.  Now that I have seen the effect firsthand (thanks again noxiart) I see that it is as described, and how I misconstrued it.  Still it is a handy trick to know, and I am glad I finally know the specific references.

For the surface effector, there is the gather node to perform that trick in P7.

no, not really, for so many reasons. For example - It only works on the surface the node is on. It gathers from all surfaces around it, not just, say, an effects surface. It only generally gathers from Ambient channels of surfaces within influence. It's not very eficient or well implemented.  While it is fine for single or limited numbers of surfaces, applying it throughout a very complex scene for a moving effect is not only tedious, but sends render times through the roof, even for quad core systems (one scene I did this on had render times of about 12 hours per frame at 640x480 res).  If I can figure out this color bleed, it is the first step to creating a much better surface effector type system for Poser - much faster and more efficient).

Granted, it can achieve a few effects similar to what an effector in Lightwave can achieve, but in a much more limited way.

There are no surface-to-surface lighting features in Poser other than IDL (P8+ only) and Gather, so I don't know what you could possibly mean by "figure out this color bleed".

A mesh's shader can only alter how that mesh appears or how things are seen through that mesh. It cannot alter how things are seen or lit around that mesh, except where a nearby mesh has a Gather node on it, or if IDL is enabled.

I understand why you can't use a second mesh, but that is the only way. Poser atmosphere does not use the color of objects and that (atmosphere) is the only feature that causes empty (meshless) sections of space to glow.

I'm not trying to just achieve a lit effect. And the orriginal question I asked was answered. This is all getting way off topic.

As far as shader's not being able to effect other surfaces than the mesh it is on, I already reffered to information I was given while on the phone with Smith Micro that indicates otherwise - though they would not elaborate further (possibly because of some future Poser plugin or product in development). Given that, as I have said time and again I will continue to explore it. Honestly, not to be rude to everyone, but if you really don't have constructive thoughts and you just want to chime in to say it's impossible, then let it drop. I have only replied to the last few to point out how what was compared to something else was really not it at all, or not a true supported feature in a version it was suggested for, but it's getting old now. There is obviously a breakdown in communication, because although I have tried to explain what I mean by "aura", "Glow", "Halo", "Color Bleed", and "Surface Effectors" everyone just seems to read as "light" - and I am not looking for anything to iluminate anything.

You are mighty peculiar. Auro, glow, halo, color bleed - these are all lighting effects not shader effects, and they appear outside the mesh - they can only be produced by the renderer's lighting engine. There should be no mystery why we keep talking about those - it's because you keep talking about them.

And while I like the folks at SM plenty, they largely get their advanced shader info from me and only know a subset. The fact that they work for SM is not a reason to believe they are an authority on the subject of Poser shaders and lighting, in the sense that they know how to do things. Mostly they know who knows and can point you in directions to look for more information. Mostly they tell people to look for me.

So my point in telling you what is not possible is constructive - I'm trying to save you (and others chiming in) from wasting your time pursuing an effect that SM told you was possible despite the fact that it is not possible.

 

Ok, let me see if I can try to explain some of the thought processes.

Initially I just asked for more information on a specific node trick. That led to this light issue, and at every turn I have tried to clarify I specifically wanted information on the node trick, and in a couple of posts I tried to elaborate a small reason of why.No, those terms are not just lighting effects, and although I know that is how they are broadly percieved, that is not the only way of looking at them (yes most people think of Halos or Aura's as being made of light or casting light, but not always the case - maybe just my broader visual arts background here causing a breakdown of understanding). Though color and sureface bleed most definately are not limited to conoting implications of light. There really aren't a lot of alternative references or descriptions, but if you have ever used the surface glow effect in Lightwave or Maya, you know it has nothing to do with lighting or illumination whatsoever - but gradiently bleeds the surfaces color outwards. I originally only used the Halo reference in passing to the Edge Blend trick I was looking for more information on to further my experiments. I originally refered to the Lightwave Glow effect as it bleeds color, not iluminates. My hope is if I can figure it out with color, I can than use it for other attributes. I further tried to elaborate with the surface effectors affecting other surface attributes, and yet that still resulted in being referenced to lighting and the gather node. As for the SM issue, it was Poser Technical Support specifically I was communicating with, and there are many reasons I find it to be plausible.  Having worked with 3D and CGI software for over 20 years, and having seen so many things grow and change, I know from past experiences it is absolutely possible for software using shader trees to have a shader affect surfaces other than the mesh it is attached to.  I accept and understand not all software packages that use shader trees translate them in the same way too.  It is all really in the mathematics and formulas used in the raytracing, and with the right combination of mathmatics, the render engine can be "tricked" - at least the theory is sound.

I have read some of your various posts, and seen some wonderful shader tree combinations you have developed, and I respect that you most likely have a great overall understanding of Poser's shader tree and nodes.  I do respect that. I think the major breakdown in our communication is how we are seeing the problem.  I do not see shaders, surface textures, etc... as nodes affecting a surface or mesh, I see them as tools that instruct the raytracing software on how to interpret the way to calculate how it's rays are affected by that surface and bounced - resulting in texture, color, transparancy, etc...  The Result is in the ray tracer itself, not the light system, the secret is in the nodes somewhere if it is there.  Given there are already nodes to draw information from other nodes, and project rays to gather information, I feel confident there may be a trick hidden in there somewhere to "reverse" this and "project" information.  Basically, it is my hope to find a combination of nodes that "trick" the rays from the ray tracer when interacting with that surface. If it isn't in an existing node yet, since I have seen it is possible for other nodes to be written, maybe I can hope for such a node or combination to become available in some future product (lord knows I lack the patience to try to do any sort of programming).  I hope this helps bridge the gap in how we see things to an extent, or at least creates a vague sort of understanding of our different thought processes?

I do choose to think outside the box for so many reasons. One of the biggest, is since starting to Use Poser 4 Pro I have seen so many things that were listed as undoable in Poser come to pass.  Much of it was exploration and experimentation on people's parts.  Some of these, though being used by a few artists out there, many still believe to be impossible (for example why do none of Daz3D's tracked vehicles seem to have moving tracks?  Or by now a patch for it at least?).