Quote - However, if you are prepared to put together a rigging tutorial, I'll be the first to beat a path to your door to get it, Paul! Seriously! I haven't found one yet that speaks English i can understand (uses human-decipherable language) so that concepts gel.

Phil Cooke speaks tolerable English:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8jxSOL_MAM (1 of 3)

Never in my long life with computer software have I seen so much resistance to beginners as in the Poser society. Arkaic, old, out-dated information, secretiveness, small-mindness, misinformation. I trust only one man, PhilC. What will happend if he is run down by a truck? Will the Poser community collapse?

?

Yep I never help anybody around here, I'm just a big meanie.

... right.. I'll bow out here since there seems to be a problem with one poster and the nature of whats being said vs what they reading.

I hope PhilC doesn't get hit by a truck, it's his turorials that taught me how to rig!

Quote - Yep I never help anybody around here, I'm just a big meanie.

Me niether! I never make models or clothes for anyone... :oP

Quote - Never in my long life with computer software have I seen so much resistance to beginners as in the Poser society. Arkaic, old, out-dated information, secretiveness, small-mindness, misinformation. I trust only one man, PhilC. What will happend if he is run down by a truck? Will the Poser community collapse?

?

Actually, I have, Vintorix. It's called CG Society. If you don't build your model from scratch and shade it yourself and-and-and, you get the same sort of treatment. There is no tolerance for using tools or pre-made figures or anything: it's almost like the members coded Maya themselves.

Oh well, there are going to be elitists anywhere, I suppose. It's all what you want to do with Poser. I write shaders using Matmatic... not common practice among Poser users, for which I had to learn Python. The feedback I got was positive: i learned a lot and make reasonably decent shaders, based on sales. But I don't expect everyone who wants to get a grip on the material room to learn to code in Python and use Matmatic. it's not for everyone. And not everyone wants to get the noggin aroung GC either. I think it's essential, but others have the right to feel how they do about it.

There are some things that I'll never get my head around, I suppose. Too bad that for that reason I'm considered less of a Poser user by superb modellers-riggers like Paul. :blink:

Quote - Yep I never help anybody around here, I'm just a big meanie.

Horsehockey! LOL

Laurie

I don't understand why you think it's elitist to encourage someone to learn the Setup room.  I also don't understand why you're filtering out part of what I'm saying about premade rigs - you seem to be reading "DON'T EVER USE THIS" when I'm not saying that.

Quote - Too bad that for that reason I'm considered less of a Poser user by superb modellers-riggers like Paul.

You can think this if you feel you have to, but I NEVER SAID ANYTHING LIKE THAT.  Where did that even come from?

RobynsVeil, I have seen the stuff in your store it is absolutly first class. Also I  really respect a (Girl!) who use Blender, have a mixed network with windows and Linux along with a number of advanced tools.

Just to keep the allimportant sense of proportions, lets us remember that it is to paint that is the highest form of art. Like the old masters or lets say, Andy Simmons. That is just what I like with you, the painterly touch. What I hate most is plastic look and feel.

What is best?

A 3D copy lit by a flash light or the original carved in stone and lighted by the sunrise with subtle leaves shadows from the surrounding trees?

Paul, you are right, and I am wrong. Obj2Cr2 is not a valid tool (plugin) for the beginner modeller to import Obj files into Poser. Beginners need to learn how to rig or they are learning it all wrong.

I'll go let PhilC know, shall I?

Some of you know I've just used the setup room for the very first time just this week. After 13 some-odd years of using Poser. Everytime I manage to overcome something, I get a sincere feeling of satisfaction, like I've "graduated" somehow ;o). But I fall into the "tinkerer" group of Poser users. If you look at my gallery you'll notice how sparsely populated it is. That's because I don't make pictures with Poser as much as I make stuff for Poser...lol. Then, there's the other camp. The ones who prefer not to have to tinker or to tinker as little as possible so that they can achieve their main goal - making pictures. Nothing wrong with either. Which way you go all boils down to what your main goal is; learning all aspects of Poser that you can, or making things easier for yourself so that you can get down to the business of making an image.

Perhaps that's something the OP should give some thought to first before getting/buying the associated programs :o). Are you a tinkerer or are you a renderer?

Before anyone twists what I've said the wrong way, I am in no way saying that one camp is better or worse than the other. It's all down to what interest you the most.

edit: for what it's worth, it was pjz99 that patiently and willingly led me through the process of using the setup room. And I fudged it a whole lot before I finally got anything to work right...lol. He was neither condescending nor impatient but very, very helpful indeed. I'm grateful.

Laurie

Robyn I don't know why you're so dead set on ignoring what I've written and inventing your own meaning.

Quote - That's a tool that allows you to not learn rigging, as long as you are willing to fit your designs to one of the premade rigs.  Not that that's bad, if you're just plain not interested in learning rigging, but it requires that you compromise to fit the tool - if you learn how to rig for yourself, you don't have to compromise.  Any tool that applies a premade rig falls into the same category imo.[

I'm justplain not interested in learning rigging, at this point. I was interested, in the past, but failed miserably despite tutorials and hours of effort. Perhaps, in the future, I'll take it up again.

Quote - I don't know how to say it simpler than I've already said it multiple times:  If you rely on a premade rig and don't learn to rig for yourself, you are compromising yourself to the premade rig.  There's nothing insulting or rude in saying this, and Phil Cooke would agree with me I'm sure (because it's basic truth).  If you're OK being limited in this respect that's fine.

Yep, I'm fine with that for the moment, because it works and my attempts at rigging my own failed, and on an epic scale. Something works for this beginner - particularly a plugin - I'll stick with it.

Eventually,I would like to learn how to rig. I'd like to learn dynamics first though, and I've been equally frustrated by that aspect of poser, too. I think it's because I'm basically quite challenged in terms of learning stuff. I'll try for a few days and if all I get is poo, I tend to give up. I will have another go at dynamics, though, and I will have another go at rigging. When the time's right. Thanks for your efforts at clarifying your meaning, Paul... sorry I misunderstood you.

Quote - I think it's because I'm basically quite challenged in terms of learning stuff. I'll try for a few days and if all I get is poo, I tend to give up.

Oh my...lol. I'm exactly the opposite. I'll keep at it and keep at it like a starving dog on a ham bone...lmao.

Laurie

Good ON you, Laurie! Your work shows the result of that preserverance. It's brilliant!

Well, I do tend to get a tad obscessed...lol. To the exclusion of everything, including sleep...hehe ;o).

And on another note, it's just past midnight here. Happy New Year everyone :o).

Laurie

Happy New Years to you too, Laurie, and you Paul.... that is TOO cute!!!

Quote - The forum rules say I gotta post this.

Awwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww!!!!!!

LOL

Laurie

zombie kitten going for the brain! ruuuuunnnn

Happy New Years!

This thread with Laurie's shoe rigging job is actually not a bad walkthrough - some details are not covered directly (grouping e.g.) but we talked about a lot of stuff:

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?thread_id=2818594&page=1

I hope you do know now that you've told me all this, Paul, I'll be bugging you when I start doing rigging... :biggrin: and I do appreciate that you know of what you speak. Your models are eloquent testament to that fact!

wow ... workflow created kiss and make up scenario. and Happy New Year too :)
I'm all into the make art button, you know, although I did rig a fish in the setup room a couple of years ago.

my last render of 2010 is now cooking. Hopefully to start doing my own stuff in 2011...after using Poser and grabbing all youse guy's stuff since 1996 or 95 ... or whenever PFO started, '99. I should learn how to do this pretty soon. :)

I truly appreciate all the advisement in this thread. I too believe better to learn the hard stuff..then the easy way is much more appreciated and you have the knowledge of both...and can tweak or whatever needs to be done.

Actually, after I got the darn thing down and managed to get a non-screwed rig, I just used the previously made one for the newest shoes I just made...lol. Shortcuts, always shortcuts ;o).

Now...to make a blank .cr2 :D

Laurie

Quote - I too believe better to learn the hard stuff..then the easy way is much more appreciated and you have the knowledge of both...and can tweak or whatever needs to be done.

Yep, I agree with this as well. But different strokes for different folks as they say ;o). These days there's so many program "helpers" that you really don't need to learn the hard stuff, as others have said. But I think it's better if you know because eventually you'll want to graduate to something more complicated that the helpers probably can't do :o).

Laurie

You know me Laurie, I [usually] agree with you :oP

After all, you were my mentor in the beginning, and for that I am greatful. If you hadn't pointed me to Wings, who knows where I would be now.

Quote - You know me Laurie, I [usually] agree with you :oP

After all, you were my mentor in the beginning, and for that I am greatful. If you hadn't pointed me to Wings, who knows where I would be now.

LMAO...well, that's nice, but a mentor normally "helps" you with something. All I did was say "Hey, go check out Wings3D"...lololol.

Laurie

Quote - > Quote - You know me Laurie, I [usually] agree with you :oP

After all, you were my mentor in the beginning, and for that I am greatful. If you hadn't pointed me to Wings, who knows where I would be now.

LMAO...well, that's nice, but a mentor normally "helps" you with something. All I did was say "Hey, go check out Wings3D"...lololol.

Laurie

Don't be so modest. You answered every question I came at you with :oP

If you'd said: "Hey, go check out Blender3D..." I can betcha BionicR wouldn't be calling you a mentor, Laurie... it was an excellent suggestion.

I'm just masochistic: hence Blender. I guess I must have some modicum of persistence. Just finishing this:

...and just when I thought I was doing okay, my best friend in the world who was helping me with this did this:

She's a real modeller... I'll get there, but yeah, need to stick with it!

If you have the patience to learn Blender, you should be able to tackle rigging with a little bull-headed stubborness. I went the easy route modeling, but the long way in other areas. It's worked for me so far.

BTW, nice hat. Your friend did ok too :o)

They look just like they're fresh from the Outback...sans dust of course...lol.

Nice :o)

Laurie

When you get around to trying rigging again I'll be happy to help.  Persistence is really 95% of it in CG.  Robyn as far as the hat models go, really the only structural difference between yours and the other one is the teeth, and those are just cones with a little tweaking, you can do that.

edit: Once you rig your first thing successfully, it all gets a lot easier to understand and you learn much faster.  The really hard parts are just getting your head around what bones do and how the Setup room works, and then all the immense trivia collection of CR2 cleanup and morphs and whatnot.  Individually these things are not terribly hard to suss out, just OH MY GOD there are so many.

If it's any consolation (and I feel like I'm highjacking the thread here, I'm sorry), between Morph Manager and CR2Builder, I got my shoe cr2s cleaned out pretty quick ;o). I'll be keeping those in my toolbox...hehe.

Laurie

This thread got out of hand before I had a chance to post. Two years in, I am still a beginner. This stuff is difficult for me. When I got Poser I could already model a bit in Blender. So within a few weeks I was strugging with the setup room. A few days and nights, no progress. I posted on the forum. It must have looked like a really stupid question. Who helped me? PhilC. He needn't have helped me, he could just have said "Buy my OBJ2CR2 program and it will solve your problem". He didn't. I was so impressed with his patience and willingness to explain that I checked out his website and found OBJ2CR2 there. With what I have learned now and the confidence I have gained, I might be willing to venture into the setup room again.

Another fine day and a new year!

So, to sum it up for Michaelab, which I hope is still among us, I make a final statement.

You have a choice. Either you listen to the experienced Poser user crowd, with years of Poser experience behind their backs. Or, you listen to me, a beginner like yourself, that just have gone through the process.

And my advice is this:

1. Start with Marvelous Designer and make dynamic clothes. You need NO other program as texturing can be done in this program too. This is not an "art with push a button" but a marvelous tool just as the name suggests.

2. When you have many successful dynamic models under your belt you can progress to conforming cloth. Then you first need to learn UV mapping, a prerequisite because obj2cr2m will not work if not every single pixel in the model is UVMapped. And BTW when you are learning don't work on your own models but on commercial objects you have bought, because, 'One thing at a time!' UVMapper Pro is a good choice because that is the program most commonly used. obj2cr2m to do the rigging goes without saying. Both are cheap.

3. When the time eventually comes up to learn modeling, buy Cinema 4D if you can afford it, otherwise Blender. But before you do that learn a simple program like Sketchup (free) just so you are not a complete beginner when you start tackling those large programs. Also it is fun to model all kind of things it is stupid to go through a such large learning process only for modeling cloth!

When you feel comfortable with all this it is time to learn manual rigging, not before. And do the manual grouping in the modeling program, not in Poser.

It is good to remember that the people who are supposed to help and guide you, the experienced Poser users don't have Marvelous Designer, and don't know it. That should give you some food for thought! :)

I might need to avail myself of your help soon than either of us thought, Paul.

The hat: it can be a smart prop, or it can be a conforming figure [ Y / N ]

If I go with making this a figure, I'll need to have a jaunt into that dread room, since Obj2Cr2 doesn't really manage headgear.. [ Y / N ]
(those that know can answer, here, like the man himself?)

If I had my druthers, I'd make it a figure over a smart-prop. Shouldn't be all that hard to do, should it? I might have a look on 1. Phil's support forum 2. on here for making that sort of thing like a hat, a figure (be a bit like making hair a figure, wouldn't it? roughly the same location)

Thanks ever so much in advance to whoever might be interested in answering this. Hmmmm perhaps this should be its own thread. I just hijacked this one (giving it back )

Since everybody else seems to be sleeping why can't we try?

Examening some models I see that hats come in 2 varieties, smart props and figures. For instance the wizard hat in 'M4 Windy Wizard Robe' has over 30 morphs. So the question must be, what do you want to manipulate? Answer that question and we can  have a go at it. 

Works for me... I've found that I like figure hair better than prop hair (hr2) because it allows me better control over it once it's been parented (or conformed)... BUT I'm not really all that sure what the difference is, really. These are all such grey areas.

In terms of manipulation, I'd like to be able to move the hat about the head a bit (attitude settings) but really, I hadn't thought about much more than that. You know, come to think of it, it might be a good idea to offer two different types: figure for on the head, and smart-prop for that hat-in-hand option.

Morphs? Well, it would need to follow a size morph, in case we have a case of Aussie hydrocephaly and possibly some sort of hair morph, except there we enter into some really dark waters. This is getting more complex than I thought it would be.

Just to let you know: this is a value-added feature of an up-coming character (fair-dinkum Aussie bloke) of HeRaZa's. Modelling's pretty-much done, texturing is too, just need this bit doing and we're laughin' (as they say here in Oz )

If you are not sure what you want to manipulate, and never have done it before why don't you leave it as a smart prop?

You will still be able to,

Scale
xScale
yScale
zSclae
yRotate
xRotate
zRotate
xTran
yTran
zTran

in the usual fashion.

Ah vintronix...am I to assume that because some model the old-fashioned way and we don't use Marvelous Designer and never have that we're some sort of poor, misguided morons or don't know what we're talking about and because you use it you're some sort of guru - a wise Confuscious-like character that one should heed because, well - MD is the end-all, be-all?

..........

Damn the TOS....dammit, dammit, dammit....

Laurie

LaurieA, I get your point!

I leave you alone.

I was just asking if I should assume? Your posts are full of craftily "loaded" phrases that sound like "don't listen to the old-timers - they're idiots"

Quote - ...It is good to remember that the people who are supposed to help and guide you, the experienced Poser users don't have Marvelous Designer, and don't know it. That should give you some food for thought! :)

And FWIW, some of us old-timers do help and guide and have lo these many years. I'm just sayin' ;o).

Laurie

Actually I'm familiar with the type of tool, as I said before, and I'm not particularly recommending against it.  Like premade rigs, Marvelous Designer and tools like it allow you to skip learning modeling but again you are compromising to the tool.  A vast amount of clothing items are just not suited to dynamics at all, and the triangle mesh that it outputs is terrible by any outside standard.

 Keep in mind there's a pretty serious problem with the uninstaller.

Quote - You have a choice. Either you listen to the experienced Poser user crowd, with years of Poser experience behind their backs. Or, you listen to me, a beginner like yourself, that just have gone through the process.

Am I a beginner since I don't have "years" of experience?

Going on 9 months here.

Guys, relax... I don't think Vintorix meant anything disparaging against the more knowlegeable group. I think he's just excited about Marv Designer particularly for beginners.

Although I've been doing Poser for 5 years or so, I totally feel like a rank novice when it comes to some of Poser's more "arcane" (well, to me, anyway :blink:) features like the Cloth Room and definitely the setup room. Paul has kindly offered to help me get my head around this... which I think is very lovely of him. I always did want to learn things properly, eventually, but you how things go when you put things on the "Eventually Bench".

So, I'll learn it now and apply it now and we'll publish it all here so we can all learn from that? Wouldn't that be awesome! :woot: Another brilliant page for Acadia to add to her Critical Poser Pointers Wiki  (the "critical" bit is mine: you don't realise how important a tool is until you learn it and then, it's like: why didn't I ever use this before? Case in point: morphing brush!).

Since I just started figuring out the setup room, I just started thinking about making a "Setup room for beginners" basic illustrated tutorial. I'll put my current projects aside for today and work on putting that together. It won't be much, but it will be what I've learned up to this point, and it may help clear some things up for some people.

Brilliant stuff, BR! :thumbupboth: I'll be the one with the wide eyes and huge smile taking notes in the front row - I just love it when the team all pulls together!

Attached Link: Poser Rigging For Dummies

Very nice BR :o). Although these old eyes were watering at the bright yellow on the black background...lmao.

Laurie