So I'm sitting around thinking about Genesis and DAZ and what all this means for Poser and Poser users. I really find it... bothersome that at this time, Poser or Smith Micro, doesn't at least let us, as their customers, know what they're planning for the next version. Make no mistake, I do understand why there are NDA's, but it just bugs me that except for Ratscloset and ThinkCooper stopping by now and then to respond to a complaint like Apple Lion OS and Poser conflict or the Camera Flyaround that never ends, We don't get much news about improvements coming up in the next version.

I'd also like to know what changes are being made in the figures  that come with Poser. If Poser does include the new weightmapping technology of DAZ's, does that mean that all of the figures that come with Poser will be able to take advantage of that technology as well?

Like I said, just wondering because, well it kind of bothers me to not know.

Would be kind of nice though if SM asked our opinions for what the next version of Poser should include, even if they don't intend to use any of it.

I understand how challenging it is to be patient with the current buzz and hype that's enveloping the forums, but very shortly we will be opening up with lots of information. And even though I rarely post these days, I drop by the various Poser/3D forums daily to read and learn. We look forward to being able to fully share our plans.

You are too used to the pre-Gizmoz merger DAZ that was always telling everyone everything as soon as they thought of it and asking everyone's opinion.

Since January, that has pretty much gone by the wayside.  The friendly, folksy, family DAZ is gone.  In it's place is a business that has seen sales decline and large expenditures of cash for R&D fail to pay off.  Prime example is the dynamic dloth.  Dynamic cloth was announced in Fall 2006.  We are now heading for MidSummer 2011.  All they have to show for their expenditure is a Win 32 bit control plugin that works in DS3.  No Mac versions at all, no 64 bit and who knows when they will get it working for any version of DS4.  In essence, not much to show for all the money they've paid out. 

Genesis is another huge roll of the dice.  If SMS decides they aren't going to include it in the next version of Poser or can't include it (most likely because they're in their upgrade cycle and what's to be included in the upgrade is already set), their content sales will continue to go down. 

As for SMS, Poser is only one of many apps they sell.  SMS isn't and never was family or folksy.  They are there to sell you the produt.  Even if they put out a list right now of what's supposed to be included in the upgrade doesn't mean it will happen.  EFrontiers put out a comparison chart when they were close to releasing the first Poser Pro.  It was supposed to have a version of Quidam included.  When it was released, no Quidam and no explanation. 

Even if SMS does decide to go with a version of the Genesis rigging, I doubt very much other figures will be able to use it anymore than V4 can use the Genesis rigging in DS4. 

If you have comments for SMS, why don't you go the the Poser page and use the contact us? 

In the end, DAZ will do what it is going to do and SMS will do what it is going to do. 

Quote - I understand how challenging it is to be patient with the current buzz and hype that's enveloping the forums, but very shortly we will be opening up with lots of information. And even though I rarely post these days, I drop by the various Poser/3D forums daily to read and learn. We look forward to being able to fully share our plans.

I'm waiting with baited breath....lolol.

Laurie

even if Smith Micro implement weight mapping for many users it will be a non-issue because of cost. They have said support for Poser 7 is dead and thats what I have , so no P7 weight mapping. 

Can I justify an upgrade to Poser pro - no. not at any price although 50 bucks might be tempting but I have better things to spend $250 on.

Quote - If you have comments for SMS, why don't you go the the Poser page and use the contact us? 

Actually, I did. And as usual, I got back a form response telling me to go check a list of topics. My subject wasn't there. To be fair though, I did also get a response saying that they send  back responses within one hour during business hours. So aside from the form response letter, I still expect one more reply later today.

Thanks, thinkcooper. It's nice to know someone's at least touching base.

Quote - I'm waiting with baited breath....lolol.

Laurie

Unless your breath smells like fish, no, no you aren't.

It's bated breath, dammit.

The answer is 42.

Quote - > Quote - I understand how challenging it is to be patient with the current buzz and hype that's enveloping the forums, but very shortly we will be opening up with lots of information. And even though I rarely post these days, I drop by the various Poser/3D forums daily to read and learn. We look forward to being able to fully share our plans.

I'm waiting with baited breath....lolol.

Laurie

I reccommend Tic Tacs Breath mints.

The poser question that CAN be answered

.....in  due time ....just be patient padwan

Cheers

This question is actually a very simple one.

And the only answer is in YOUR hands; "The users", the "customers".

The more idea's, proposals, requests, enhancements, are fed into "SM's contact us", the more they will have tot go in their customers requested direction.

The more problem reports they get, the faster they can find the weak links in the software.

The rooms - actions, with the most problem reports WILL certainly be looked at.

But ?
If only one single user wants a single Sprite, and 100 others want  Lemmon Tea?

We all know what drink we 'll get.

Do not re-act. That is too late.

Act.
Before the other party acts in an unexpected way.

The military would say;"Offence is the best defence".

To take this a step further.

I like to see the forums as an open office to share information, tips and tricks, on how Poser works, and what results one can get.

Any problem, even soo small, should get reported to SM.
It might be a detail in your eyes, or a "minor" in your personal workflow, but together with other reports, it might point to a bigger problem and get solved.

Yes-yes, Poser has a huge learning curve, and some rooms could use a make over: face room, mat room, hair room, setup room, all have had their best years.
Some go back to Poser 4, others to Poser5.

Usability can be improved.
Some things could be made automatic.
Other could be made more "user friendly".

All this should go to the right ear.
The one that is listening.

So, report, inform SM via their website.

Best regards, and have a nice day
Tony

But???

Be aware for what you want????

Some time ago, everybody wanted higher poly figures.
Now we get High poly figures.

And, shit!       They are close to impossible to rig......

Now we want a better rigging system..

The circle is almost complete...............................................................................

If we all had asked for Higher Quality LOW to Medium Poly figures.
We would never have had the need for another rigging system, and we would have had better figures..

Did???
Did anybody think about the outcome???

We WILL sooner or later get another rigging system, that is almost certain.
But, everything build before will almost certainly NOT be compatible with the "New" rigging.

See the hype around the Poser8 new capsules.

Some are going to have to walk this road again.
Some, not all, but some.

Quote - > Quote - I'm waiting with baited breath....lolol.

Laurie

 

Unless your breath smells like fish, no, no you aren't.

It's bated breath, dammit.

Hey, quit pickin' on Laurie!!! She's cute, talented and sweet.  And it's no you ain't, not "no you aren't." What are ya, some kind of Yankee grammar school marm? Why I oughtta....

Anyway what I expect, nay, demand, for the next release of Poser is an improved hair room, a tailor shop with basic clothing meshes that can be easily altered and made to conform to the figure being used with no more than two mouse clicks, a texture creation module that allows one to directly paint on a model's surface. It should also be cheap, crash proof, require no patches abd come with a complimentary, autographed nude photo of our favorite celebrity, excepting Lady Gaga or Madonna. That would be cruel.

P.S. I really would like that hair room and tailor shop. Also, the picture.

I am still a little bewildered by this desire to be told what is in the next version of Poser and, in particular, support for Genesis.  I am not anti Daz but I have to say I have seen nothing yet that would make Genesis a 'must have' and I have seen the video, looked at the morphs and the new Character at Daz.  When I see renders that show aspects not possible with the present V4 I will be interested.  

I understand it is early days for Genesis and people need time to undersatnd the new figure but so far I am not really impressed.  

So I am not at all interested in whether the next incarnation of Poser will have Genesis support.  I might be interested in whether the Poser after that has support but until I can see something worth spending my money on I will continue my relationship with V4 and carry on trying to expand my knowledge of Poser and 3D art in general (and to think it will save me money to boot, a win win situation).

Question for the OP: how much extra are you willing to pay for another rigging system and rigging tools?  IIRC the ProPack add on for Poser 4 was somewhere in the $299 to $350 range back in 2001. 

DAZ hasn't gotten around to telling potential buyers just how much their Content Creation Tools are going to cost.  Or the final cost of their Pro version of DS. 

Right now DS4 and Genesis is limited.  You can pose but you can't rig or do anything else.  If that's all you want for Poser then it probably wouldn't add much to cost.  If you want the functionality you are used to in Poser (especially rigging and creating your own custom cr2's) be prepared for a much higher cost. 

Quote - Question for the OP: how much extra are you willing to pay for another rigging system and rigging tools?  IIRC the ProPack add on for Poser 4 was somewhere in the $299 to $350 range back in 2001. 

DAZ hasn't gotten around to telling potential buyers just how much their Content Creation Tools are going to cost.  Or the final cost of their Pro version of DS. 

Right now DS4 and Genesis is limited.  You can pose but you can't rig or do anything else.  If that's all you want for Poser then it probably wouldn't add much to cost.  If you want the functionality you are used to in Poser (especially rigging and creating your own custom cr2's) be prepared for a much higher cost. 

The problem with your question is that it really has nothing to do with the original post I made. Whether or not I'm willing to pay more for Poser is irrelevant. What I want to know are the things that by their NDA, they can't seem to tell me now.

BTW, I got a response from a tech at SM who said that they were unfamiliar with DAZ's weightmapping technology and that I should ask you guys and gals how to simulate it in Poser.

Frankly, thinkcooper's response was fine for me. It's just... reassuring to know that somebody's there and they care.

What we probably SHOULD do;

Goto the International Standards Organisation, and force them to define a ISO norm for 3D rigging in softwares.

Problem solved, by guestimate around 2050?

Quote - What we probably SHOULD do;

Goto the International Standards Organisation, and force them to define a ISO norm for 3D rigging in softwares.

Problem solved, by Poser Pro 2010

^^^ Fixed it for you Tony. COLLADA & ISO already play well together, and we're on the primary COLLADA work group, implementing their most thorough conformance test standards. Our Pro 2010 COLLADA support is about as robust as it gets these days. :-)

Quote - > Quote - Question for the OP: how much extra are you willing to pay for another rigging system and rigging tools?  IIRC the ProPack add on for Poser 4 was somewhere in the $299 to $350 range back in 2001. 

DAZ hasn't gotten around to telling potential buyers just how much their Content Creation Tools are going to cost.  Or the final cost of their Pro version of DS. 

Right now DS4 and Genesis is limited.  You can pose but you can't rig or do anything else.  If that's all you want for Poser then it probably wouldn't add much to cost.  If you want the functionality you are used to in Poser (especially rigging and creating your own custom cr2's) be prepared for a much higher cost. 

The problem with your question is that it really has nothing to do with the original post I made. Whether or not I'm willing to pay more for Poser is irrelevant. What I want to know are the things that by their NDA, they can't seem to tell me now.

BTW, I got a response from a tech at SM who said that they were unfamiliar with DAZ's weightmapping technology and that I should ask you guys and gals how to simulate it in Poser.

Frankly, thinkcooper's response was fine for me. It's just... reassuring to know that somebody's there and they care.

Sorry about the misinterpretation. 

So, it seems that while at some point DAZ and SMS had a talk about wieight mapping and such, it may not have gone any further than that.

If SMS were to offer an add on the same as the did the old ProPack, how much would you pay for it?

This is just a friendly question, no attack.  You don't have to answer if you don't want to.

@ thinkcooper.

Not knowing that, is is the best news I'v read today.

In the Belgian Air Force, (I am retired now) I was responsible for the implementation of Standards and Norms.
I know their value.

GREAT news.

Quote -
Sorry about the misinterpretation. 

So, it seems that while at some point DAZ and SMS had a talk about wieight mapping and such, it may not have gone any further than that.

If SMS were to offer an add on the same as the did the old ProPack, how much would you pay for it?

This is just a friendly question, no attack.  You don't have to answer if you don't want to.

Because I can't even take DS4 out on a test drive, I haven't used Genesis. So really, I'm not that sold on it one way or the other. I admit though that I would like to see Poser/SM up their game a bit in the figures department. I know that's not really what Poser's about, but on the other hand, It's the "Poser" community, not the "DAZ" community. DAZ shouldn't be telling Poser what to do or how to do it... (I feel).

That said, if Poser wants to charge for it's features the way DAZ does, I'd probably have to decide whther or not it was worth it on a case by case basis.

"It's the "Poser" community, not the "DAZ" community. DAZ shouldn't be telling Poser what to do or how to do it... (I feel)."

IIRC Daz never told SM to do anything.

I Think any Lingering wishful notions about the genesis figure magically working in any upcoming Poser 9  etc have
been Definatively laid to rest by the shrugging response you were given by the SM tech guy.

No genesis in poser ..case closed

we can Discuss other poser relevant matters now.

Cheers

STOP.

IF, and I choose my words, If PoserXYZ comes out with a really good new figure set included.

If that figure meets all demands.
If that figure had a very good texture to start his/her life with.
if that figure has the right proportions as a male and female should look.
If that figure is very well rigged (I personally do not care at all in what system. The simpler the better, I still like the KISS principle.)
But : if he/she bends as we all expect then to.
If there is support with a bunch of clothes, shoes, hair included in the release to start with.

So we all can start to learn, and get used to the "new" figure.

The rest will come automatically.
Free and to sell stuff WILL be made, but the figure HAS to be a good one.

I have no doubt they can do it.
Build it, beta test the hell out of them, and release in a future Poser version.
But? As with Poser?
Only release when ready.
Never - ever allow yourself to get hunted down into a release date.

When?
In 2 weeks.
But I do not give a countdown date to start from.... ha-ha-ha-

Then:
Genesis has no reason for existence any more an can go walkabout.

You know, who really cares if poser does genesis. The figure is ok. I personally have no desire to buy another program just so I can use one figure. I know you can make this figure male/female/child eetc. I've seen the ads. I used the figure. I don't see much support for it. Shoot, I can find more for the poser figures. I'd rather have SM make more content for existing figures and new figures they make. And everybody will still be able to make their NVITWAS.

EClark 1894 wrote;

Quote - BTW, I got a response from a tech at SM who said that they were unfamiliar with DAZ's weightmapping technology and that I should ask you guys and gals how to simulate it in Poser.

Wolf359 wrote:

Quote - I Think any Lingering wishful notions about the genesis figure magically working in any upcoming Poser 9  etc have
been Definatively laid to rest by the shrugging response you were given by the SM tech guy.

No genesis in poser ..case closed

I wouldn't take a response from some tech guy that EClark 1894 was in touch with as gospel. He said to ask forum members how to simulate it in Poser? :laugh: If he doesn't even know what weight mapping is he couldn't be much of a tech guy. Or he was avoiding the question, since no one at SM wold be allowed to answer EClark 1894's question anyway. That sounds like a much more likely to me.

Coldrake

@ redphantom

When a figure is "good"?

Support starts automatically.

When another figure is better?
There will never be support for your own figure.

I would like to see SM take the right direction this time, and pruduce an autstanding figure.
But this "next generation" Poser figures will have to be really special to get their figure reputation back on track.

Quote - If he doesn't even know what weight mapping is he couldn't be much of a tech guy. Or he was avoiding the question, since no one at SM wold be allowed to answer EClark 1894's question anyway. That sounds like a much more likely to me.  

 

Coldrake

 

LOL !!! Holding on to that Dream of genesis in poser.

To each their own

Cheers

As said above; there is little to no support for Genesis.

I think that explains a lot without using many words.

And another naked chick without a closet?
What is the added value?

Quote - EClark 1894 wrote;

Quote - BTW, I got a response from a tech at SM who said that they were unfamiliar with DAZ's weightmapping technology and that I should ask you guys and gals how to simulate it in Poser.

I wouldn't take a response from some tech guy that EClark 1894 was in touch with as gospel. He said to ask forum members how to simulate it in Poser? :laugh: If he doesn't even know what weight mapping is he couldn't be much of a tech guy. Or he was avoiding the question, since no one at SM wold be allowed to answer EClark 1894's question anyway. That sounds like a much more likely to me.

Coldrake

Well, to be honest, I didn't really expect to get much of an answer, and the Tech did say they just weren't familiar with DAZ's Technology, not with weightmapping in general.

Frankly, I don't take that to mean anything more than what they said. So for all I know, Genesis still has a shot to be in the next version.

Quote - > Quote - If he doesn't even know what weight mapping is he couldn't be much of a tech guy. Or he was avoiding the question, since no one at SM wold be allowed to answer EClark 1894's question anyway. That sounds like a much more likely to me.  

 

Coldrake

 

Wolf359 wrote;

LOL !!! Holding on to that Dream of genesis in poser.

 

 

To each their own

 

Cheers

I have no Dream of genesis in poser. For myself, I don't care whether Genesis is usable in Poser or not, as I don't even use Poser anymore except for the cloth room once in a while. Though I hope it will work for those Poser users who would like to use the figure.

I'm just not going to take the word of some tech guy under NDA who isn't allowed to answer questions about Genesis in Poser in the first place. If you want to believe him, that's fine. Like you say, to each their own.

I guess we'll have to wait and see.

EClark 1894 wrote;

Quote - Well, to be honest, I didn't really expect to get much of an answer, and the Tech did say they just weren't familiar with DAZ's Technology, not with weightmapping in general. Frankly, I don't take that to mean anything more than what they said. So for all I know, Genesis still has a shot to be in the next version.

Exactly.

Coldrake

Quote - > Quote - > Quote - I'm waiting with baited breath....lolol.

Laurie

 

Unless your breath smells like fish, no, no you aren't.

It's bated breath, dammit.

Hey, quit pickin' on Laurie!!! She's cute, talented and sweet.  And it's no you ain't, not "no you aren't." What are ya, some kind of Yankee grammar school marm? Why I oughtta....

I still recommend breath mints! Nobody wants to smell fishy breath!

Quote - > Quote - > Quote - I'm waiting with baited breath....lolol.

Laurie

 

Unless your breath smells like fish, no, no you aren't.

It's bated breath, dammit.

Hey, quit pickin' on Laurie!!! She's cute, talented and sweet.  And it's no you ain't, not "no you aren't." What are ya, some kind of Yankee grammar school marm?

Worse...I'm Canadian.

As for the original question of this thread: Yes I think SMS would profit from a litttle more openness about the way they are heading and feedback to those who contributed.

It is tale telling they do not have an own forum where users can drop their ideas and opinions. This is Renderosity. Are they reading?

I like the approach of for example MarvelousDesigner. They have a 'feature request' forum where threads are decorated with posts from developers saying 'ETA of this feature is October 2011', or 'implemented in version 2.9.3'. A response 'this is not going to happen' I have not seen, but that could be a cultural thing.

I think to remember SM once had a forum.

BUT?

Where do you want the company's energy to go to??
Managing and maintaining a forum?? Manhrs, + extra hard@software maintenance?

Ever hr spend in a forum is a developpers lost hr.

I prefer them to not have a forum, but continue to develop a better PoserXYZ  for everybody.

And YES, they come and read, and comment here.

And YES, you are allways free to contact them.

And YES it is somtimes frustrating to wait.

But ?
Better NO answer, then a false promice.

Better NO release date, as one they can not meet.

Better NO release than a too hasty one.

Quote - As for the original question of this thread: Yes I think SMS would profit from a litttle more openness about the way they are heading and feedback to those who contributed.

It is tale telling they do not have an own forum where users can drop their ideas and opinions. This is Renderosity. Are they reading?

Are they reading? Yes, I believe so now. You'll note that the very first response to my original post was Steve Cooper from Poser. and on occasion I do know that John, aka "Ratscloset", and even CPStarlett (although I haven't seen a post from her in a while) do occasionally stop by. I recognize that everyone is busy, and perhaps I let all the hype about Genesis and DS4 get to me a bit. I've been a loyal Poser user since version 2, and since then the only versions I missed were 3 and 5.

I'm not anti-Daz, without them I would not have found out about 3D art work and without their free program allowing me to find out what could be done with such a Program I would never have stumped up the cash to buy Poser.

That said I am now a Poser user but still careful with my cash.  Despite this I still happily paid for each upgrade and with the last one, Poser Pro 2010, I not only upgraded but built a system around it.  I moved to 64bit processing only because Poser was now able to make use of it.

Could Poser be better, of course, but then I could have a much better computer if I had thrown more money at it.  I think Poser is great value for money and I have little doubt I will upgrade to the next version of Poser Pro, assuming there is one, Genesis support or not.  

Until then the present incarnation gives me all the pleasure and challenges I need leaving me safe in the knowledge that SM will tell me when the next upgrade is available.

Quote - > Quote - This is Renderosity. Are they reading?

Are they reading? Yes, I believe so now. You'll note that the very first response to my original post was Steve Cooper from Poser. and on occasion I do know that John, aka "Ratscloset", and even CPStarlett (although I haven't seen a post from her in a while) do occasionally stop by. I recognize that everyone is busy, and perhaps I let all the hype about Genesis and DS4 get to me a bit. I've been a loyal Poser user since version 2, and since then the only versions I missed were 3 and 5.

I'd like to add stewer to that list above. Our lead render engine developer is here frequently and chimes in whenever he can; and Bagginsbill who has been working on our library also provides lots of input here, and as well passes it along to us if we've missed it.

I'd not have known you couldn't rig in DS4 if I wasn't going thru the threads, which I rarely have time to do... I really need to catch up on the news around here =/

Quote - I'd not have known you couldn't rig in DS4 if I wasn't going thru the threads, which I rarely have time to do... I really need to catch up on the news around here =/

You can't rig in any DS version UNLESS you buy the rigging tools. For DS4 that means the CCT (Content Creation Tools). Which are a more advanced and only version of rigging tools that they will have. No basic and pro versions as the last time.

But clothing creation will be easier with the genesis figure. The rigging is easer and it will fit any/most shapes without having to do all that extra work as in Poser rigged figures. Lets not forget the options with a plugin to use your other figures clothes with genesis.

As a long time Poser user. Every version since 4. I would love to see Genesis used in Poser. But I'm not going to cry about it if it does not happen. I can just port it over to Poser. No different than what many of us do to get figures to other software. Even a 3rd party bridge might be a good solution.

I do see the advantages of Genesis over other figures. I don't believe that SM can make a really good figure. There has not been a better native figure in Poser since as long as I have been around. Even the one they have redone 3 or 4 times is till a poor excuse of a figure.

So we have been given SM's version of a DAZ soon on info about the next version. Fine. But I'm using Genesis now. The longer I have to wait for any info on Poser. The more money DAZ will be getting out of me for Genesis. Mind you. That's not much right now. Even less on Poser rigged figures. And that has no baring on me buying the next version of Poser. I will because I'm a Poser user.

"I have seen nothing yet that would make Genesis a 'must have' and I have seen the video, looked at the morphs and the new Character at Daz.  When I see renders that show aspects not possible with the present V4 I will be interested.  "

actually I have seen a few things at daz that are not for poser as yet, that look really good (I'm trying not to look too closely because it makes me sad)

And I think this is just the beginning.  so I will be with eclark hoping that it all comes together in the next iteration of poser.

Love esther

My issue is if the next verson of Poser supports Genesis...I already have a snake, trees and some apples....I already know BB has a really great water shader....think flood...but does BB have a good wood shader...think arc.

hornet3d great points in your post.

Quote - "I have seen nothing yet that would make Genesis a 'must have' and I have seen the video, looked at the morphs and the new Character at Daz.  When I see renders that show aspects not possible with the present V4 I will be interested.  "

 

actually I have seen a few things at daz that are not for poser as yet, that look really good (I'm trying not to look too closely because it makes me sad)

And I think this is just the beginning.  so I will be with eclark hoping that it all comes together in the next iteration of poser.

 

Love esther

Sorry, esther. I'm not really sold on Genesis. I MAY use it if Poser allows, but I can live with or without it.  I do agree though with Tashar though. I would like to see some more effort put into the Poser figures. If not, then yeah, I do kind of feel that they should support Genesis.

that new hair looks great and is DS only.  (I call that genesis too when it i sfor a genesis figure and is DS only)

It's one of the best hairs I have ever seen.

Love esther

I still have PLENTY of catching up to do, just learned that "genesis" is a character, from all Ive read so far, I totally didnt know that...

But, after poking around in the forums there, doesnt look to good for Genesis or DS4 =/

Least I dont feel bad for NOT liking the SM line of figures though, I thought I was the only one =P

Actually Genesis isn't a character, but the name of the mesh the characters will be created from. while I do see some interesting promise in the Genesis mesh, I'm still highly dubious of V5 and M5 themselves. So far the males being morphed still seem to retain some female characteristics, as far as I can see. A lot like the V3 male and the V4 Male. 

Quote - that new hair looks great and is DS only.  (I call that genesis too when it i sfor a genesis figure and is DS only)

It's one of the best hairs I have ever seen.

Love esther

I don't know what hair that is your talking about but if that is true then they just cut the possible sales to half of what it could have been. Not seeing any reasoning in that. The problem these days is so many have to have the fit for thier figure already done for them. It is beyond them to try to trans and scale it themselves. DAZ caters to the click and render crowd.

Genesis is a Figure not a character. An all in one mesh. You should see what some like josephquick are doing with it in ZBrush. I think that is what he is using. This single mesh is so easy to work with in what ever your favorite modeling software is. No more multi groups to lay your morphs across.

 edit to say that I checked to see what hair that was. Now I understand. I didn't buy the bundle and I sure as hell will not buy a hair that you need to jump through hoops to use elsewhere.

You do know that the Genesis mesh actually has more groups than the Gen 4 mesh right?

well I think it all looks very nice, although whenever I see it I quickly close the window as I odn't want to look at stuff I can't use.  Well whether or not it was a very bad business decision for them, time will tell.

Love esther

PS I have seen the zbrush stuff and it looks awesome but until it is in poser with lots of vendor support and priced for us poser type peeps, it won't be useful to us.

Exactly where is this ZBrush stuff you speak of?!? I'm curious...

Google ZBrush, a 3D software.