Um... I meant the ZBrush work being done w/ the Genesis figure =/

Also, I noticed a "separation" between figure and character. Explain that to me too...

You'll also note that Genesis uses the older style of grouping for the torso.

See those actor headings when your in the DS4 parameters tab...yep, require vertex groups just like the previous figures.

Ewwwwww.... Hes using Blender =P

Well I was looking online for a new appliance to make coconut daquiris when I ran across this neat looking free program and thought to myself, "How hard could this be?" :tt2:

I mustve tried it so many times, and then totally avoided it altogether. When I started playing around w/ Second Life, I was somewhat forced into it.

I wont lie, it is an extremely powerful and robust program, I am amazed at some of the things done w/ it, but I just can't get around working w/ it's navigation and interface. Of all the programs I have ever used, it's by far the most difficult to manuever through. The "only" thing I can do w/ it now is import a mesh to autorig for use in Second Life, and even that, requires my "full" attention. I have to wear surgical gloves when I use it...

I'll admit, as a Carrara user, I get envious hearing and seeing how many people have good times w/ it =P It is very popular and has an outstanding community. And it's free =/

Quote - Just so y'all don't think I'm yanking your chain here's a screen shot, partial list of vertex groups are shown on the right side of the image.

You'll also note that Genesis uses the older style of grouping for the torso.

See those actor headings when your in the DS4 parameters tab...yep, require vertex groups just like the previous figures.

And has absolutely nothing to do with what I said. The mesh is NOT cut up into groups as previous poser rigged figures. You are selecting bone groups but again that has nothing to do with how the mesh is made. It is wieght map rigging. Completely different.

And to prove that I know what I talking about. Add a deformer or export the mesh or better yet. Export the mesh selecting the poser export option in DS4 and load it into Poser and add a magnet.

You will find that there is only one Group and that is the mesh itself. You don't select the head and add a deformer9DS) or a magnet(Poser) because it won't do it. You need to select the genesis mesh to be able to add the deformer or magnet. You do not have to cross groups with the deformer and yopu do not have to export each group or use a script to export the groups out to load back in for morphs as in multi grouped figure that they all are until Genesis.

This is another reason why clothing creation will be less work for everybody.

So Your not yanking my chain. Your doing that to yourself quite well without knowing how the figure really works. 

Matcreater look in the Genesis render thread. I think there was one there. Everything is a bit scattered in different threads.

As a Diehard Poser user. I can't be the only one that can find the advantages of Genesis figures.

I've only used the Genesis figure a few times, but that's only because I haven't had time for 3D lately. Suffice to say that if it works in a future Poser version, that will be A Good Thing. Very very few Poser figures (and none of the mainstream commercial ones) can bend etc as well as Genesis, and the other benefits such as scaling and use of clothing are significant. Anyone who can't see the benefits probably has an anti-DAZ bias, I suspect. Genesis is a very large step forward.

As for content support... well, the figure just came out very recently; they only released morph packs in the last few days. I would assume the support will be just fine.

You are very believable.

It will be good if it does work well in poser.

You know, to be honest I have been very happy with M4 but not as happy with V4 because of her magnets and lack of lip polygons, so since V4 came out I was hanging out for V5 - and now - alas...

Love esther

Quote - > Quote - Just so y'all don't think I'm yanking your chain here's a screen shot, partial list of vertex groups are shown on the right side of the image.

You'll also note that Genesis uses the older style of grouping for the torso.

See those actor headings when your in the DS4 parameters tab...yep, require vertex groups just like the previous figures.

And has absolutely nothing to do with what I said. The mesh is NOT cut up into groups as previous poser rigged figures. You are selecting bone groups but again that has nothing to do with how the mesh is made. It is wieght map rigging. Completely different.

And to prove that I know what I talking about. Add a deformer or export the mesh or better yet. Export the mesh selecting the poser export option in DS4 and load it into Poser and add a magnet.

You will find that there is only one Group and that is the mesh itself. You don't select the head and add a deformer9DS) or a magnet(Poser) because it won't do it. You need to select the genesis mesh to be able to add the deformer or magnet. You do not have to cross groups with the deformer and yopu do not have to export each group or use a script to export the groups out to load back in for morphs as in multi grouped figure that they all are until Genesis.

This is another reason why clothing creation will be less work for everybody.

So Your not yanking my chain. Your doing that to yourself quite well without knowing how the figure really works. 

Matcreater look in the Genesis render thread. I think there was one there. Everything is a bit scattered in different threads.

As a Diehard Poser user. I can't be the only one that can find the advantages of Genesis figures.

Hmm. Interestingly enough if you import the blMilWom_4b.obj from the geometries folder directly into Poser you get precisely the same results as with the exported Genesis mesh object in regard to the morphing tool.

Furthermore if you select the imported Genesis mesh then click the group tool you see that the groups are in fact present.

The difference is not in the mesh body itself.

Where the new figure departs from the previous generation of figures is the inclusion of weight mapping which could just as easily have been implemented in the existing figures.

Weight mapping is not new and DAZ is using an interesting variation of it but if someone wanted to generate a .dsf version of V4 the results would be the same as for the new wonder figure.

The reason for the hype about the new figure is to recoup development costs of adding weight mapping support to DS4. Think about it, had they simply created a .dsf format version of V4 no one would buy into it. Since business can't remain static you get the "new figure" spin.

"But it's, 'A base figure that morphs into whatever you want.'"  MakeHuman has been doing that for years.

"But weight mapping influences is new."  Google it.

How about actually digging into the mechanics of the thing and seeing for yourself, it's what I do.

At no point did I say that the inclusion of weight mapping in DS is a bad idea but there are a lot of premises based on lack of information being thrown about in regards to the new to DS system of influence control of mesh surfaces.

Mesh creation will remain the same in making new mesh items for the Genesis figure.

What will be different is the addition of weight mapping which requires the, not yet available to the public, CCT.

The CCT may or may not include automation of group creation but that step is still going to be in there somewhere.

What DAZ has done is to make a proprietary file format that requires their tool for rigging, just smart business.

Yeah, but this kind of "smart business", can get you "out of business".

Never forget that 90 % are hobby guys and girls.
Spending "hobby" money.

They wanna play, have fun, be creative.
With an "easy" acces and user friendly program.

Not a bunch of "to pay for" add ons, where you never see an end of the road.

IF you restrict your own market, right brom the beginning, sorry, I can not call that "smart"'.
That is very limited short term thinking.

Remember; Genesis is a hype right now, mothing more, nothing less.

The hype does more then the figure does.

No support? No free items? All extra's to pay for???

She "ll have a very short life.

Also, even with the weight mapping, sorry, I see nothing NEW....... 

Last but not least:

Most DAZ customers are way over their ears in V'4 investments.
They are way past the point of no return.

Any "NEW" figure WILL have to be a special one to turn that around..
And I'v not seen this in Genesis.

No figure reproduces some of the most basic human body movements.

No figure has "real" body references. Or show me one with her breasts on her collars!

Yeah, yeah, poly count has gone through the roof, but breasts are still helium filled balloons. And you can subdevide them ten times more, the weight of the extra poly's will not lower them. Almost all are modeled in the "T" pose.
Do I walk around in a "T" Pose?

When arms are lowered, skin relaxes and breasts lower an inch or 2.
What figure does that??
NONE.
Just an example.

But we all get 5.000 poly ears
2000 poly navels
10.000 poly inner mouths

Everybody forgets "basic" human body shapes and or body-skin interactions.

And Genesis, is no exeption.

Now if someone would start, by building a Low to Medium Poly model, that does act and move like a normal human person would.
Now, THAT would be a revolution.

Poser and DAZ both do internal subdevision.

Anyway, a mesh, is just the wireframe to hang the texture on.

Good shape, and good rigging are far more important than poly count.
But in the end?
It is the texture, bump, displacement, that "makes" the figure.

Furthermore if you examine the file list of morphs available you'll see Clone, CTRL, FBM, FHM, MCM, PBM, PHM, SCL, and VSM prefixes.

Guess what that means? That there is the capability to create actor specific morphs using the CCT.

What  some folks are getting stuck on is that without the CCT all you can make areFBMs so are presuming from single indication that there are no groups in Genesis.

The mesh is cut up into groups just like all Poser/DS meshes previous to it.

If it wasn't, integrating the Bullet Physics library to provide a dynamic cloth plug-in would be a trivial matter to a skilled programmer.

Now let's take the oft repeated statement that content creation will now be simpler.

Where's the content?

Using the store search at DAZ, to date there are 3 outfits in the marketplace for the Genesis figure. Adding the included clothing in DS4 the total becomes 6 outfits.

Do you propose to suggest that skilled content creators using a simpler system have been unable to produce more than three marketable outfits in the time the CCT has been available to them?

Seems odd to me. Coupled with the comments in the DAZ forums indicating that there is a "learning curve" to the CCT it appears that content creation might not be as simple as the marketing speak would have everyone believe.

Personally though I think that the .dsf format is an improvement over the .cr2 format since the techs at DAZ appear to have solved the scaling issues when morphing. I'm just not biting the hook that marketing has thrown out on the rest of it. I mean my last name may be Jones but my first isn't Jim and I ain't drinking the Kool-aid.

Quote - Yeah, but this kind of "smart business", can get you "out of business".

Never forget that 90 % are hobby guys and girls.
Spending "hobby" money.

They wanna play, have fun, be creative.
With an "easy" acces and user friendly program.

Not a bunch of "to pay for" add ons, where you never see an end of the road.

IF you restrict your own market, right brom the beginning, sorry, I can not call that "smart"'.
That is very limited short term thinking.

Remember; Genesis is a hype right now, mothing more, nothing less.

The hype does more then the figure does.

No support? No free items? All extra's to pay for???

She "ll have a very short life.

Also, even with the weight mapping, sorry, I see nothing NEW....... 

Last but not least:

Most DAZ customers are way over their ears in V'4 investments.
They are way past the point of no return.

Any "NEW" figure WILL have to be a special one to turn that around..
And I'v not seen this in Genesis.

No figure reproduces some of the most basic human body movements.

No figure has "real" body references. Or show me one with her breasts on her collars!

Yeah, yeah, poly count has gone through the roof, but breasts are still helium filled balloons. And you can subdevide them ten times more, the weight of the extra poly's will not lower them. Almost all are modeled in the "T" pose.
Do I walk around in a "T" Pose?

When arms are lowered, skin relaxes and breasts lower an inch or 2.
What figure does that??
NONE.
Just an example.

But we all get 5.000 poly ears
2000 poly navels
10.000 poly inner mouths

Everybody forgets "basic" human body shapes and or body-skin interactions.

And Genesis, is no exeption.

Now if someone would start, by building a Low to Medium Poly model, that does act and move like a normal human person would.
Now, THAT would be a revolution.

Poser and DAZ both do internal subdevision.

Anyway, a mesh, is just the wireframe to hang the texture on.

Good shape, and good rigging are far more important than poly count.
But in the end?
It is the texture, bump, displacement, that "makes" the figure.

Won't have much negative impact on their current business.

Here's why:

1. The previous generations of figures still work in DS4.

2. As noted the figure really is not significantly different from the previous models. Weight mapping for deformations and resolution of the scaling problem are pretty much it.

3. Because of the similarity to the previous figures they have been able to implement the Autofit Plug-in allowing use of a significant portion of previous content.

4. The weight mapping is copied over to the content. With the auto fit parameter set to true this causes the outfit to "fit to" any morph.

5. The Genesis mesh is a much lower poly mesh that utilizes subdivision for increased resolution. In effect similar to creating a multires figure in a program such as Blender.

6. I'm with you on the mesh deformation. They fixed the front of the armpits but wrecked the back. But there is only so much that can be done within the chosen rigging framework, compromises have to be made.

7. Since the UV mapping is the same as for the Gen 4 series the texturing issue is moot to the discussion of the technological aspects. I'm not disagreeing so much considering it to be a separate matter.

8. Customers tend to jump on the "OOH Shiny!!!" new products. Not everybody takes things apart to see how they actually work. (Yeah that's caused me a few advetures in life.:blushing:)

I seriously doubt there will be much difficulty in including Genesis support in Poser because of the similarity in the files.

The less than well designed and implemented UI of DS4 is a problem, failure to insure updated plug-ins is another.

What if Kirk had given Genesis to Kahn? :tt2:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3w2saj52fI

Quote - Furthermore if you examine the file list of morphs available you'll see Clone, CTRL, FBM, FHM, MCM, PBM, PHM, SCL, and VSM prefixes. Guess what that means? That there is the capability to create actor specific morphs using the CCT.

A morph has always been able to affect as few or as many vertices as desired.
All that's happened is that now making FBMs is easier because the mesh is handled internally without splitting it into body parts.  

Quote - Personally though I think that the .dsf format is an improvement over the .cr2 format since the techs at DAZ appear to have solved the scaling issues when morphing.

Which has nothing to do with the format itself.

Quote - Furthermore if you examine the file list of morphs available you'll see Clone, CTRL, FBM, FHM, MCM, PBM, PHM, SCL, and VSM prefixes. Guess what that means? That there is the capability to create actor specific morphs using the CCT.

What  some folks are getting stuck on is that without the CCT all you can make areFBMs so are presuming from single indication that there are no groups in Genesis.

The mesh is cut up into groups just like all Poser/DS meshes previous to it.

If it wasn't, integrating the Bullet Physics library to provide a dynamic cloth plug-in would be a trivial matter to a skilled programmer.

I don't get the point in your rambling about the groups. You can put as many groups into any mesh as you like, that doesn't necessarily have any bearing on what you can or cannot do with the mesh.

And how is Bullet Physics relevant here? As far as I know, it wasn't even designed to be used for simulating clothing, at least not the way it's done in these programs (Poser, DS).

Quote - The reason for the hype about the new figure is to recoup development costs of adding weight mapping support to DS4. Think about it, had they simply created a .dsf format version of V4 no one would buy into it. Since business can't remain static you get the "new figure" spin.

File format has nothing to do with it.

Quote - Hmm. Interestingly enough if you import the blMilWom_4b.obj from the geometries folder directly into Poser you get precisely the same results as with the exported Genesis mesh object in regard to the morphing tool.  

Furthermore if you select the imported Genesis mesh then click the group tool you see that the groups are in fact present.

I'll make it simpler for you to understand what I was talking about. Open DS4. Then load up V4 along side Genesis figure. Select the head of both figures and add a deformer to both of them. See what happens. The deformer will work on V4 head but does not on Genesis. You need to select the Genesis figure to add a deformer and then trans it to where you want the morph to be.

In V4 if you want the morph to work on the hip/abbs chest and r/l collar. You have to add those groups to the deformer. Then export each group and load each group. Scripts make the process a little easier but still lots of work. Or do the UVMapper trick to get a groupless mesh to work on in other software and then move it back to UVMapper to get the groups back and then go through the export/import/inject process.

You don't need to go through all that with Genesis.

Quote - Guess what that means? That there is the capability to create actor specific morphs using the CCT.  

What  some folks are getting stuck on is that without the CCT all you can make areFBMs so are presuming from single indication that there are no groups in Genesis.

. Nobody is stuck on that except you thinking everyone is. The CCT is not out for public use yet. DAZ has even stated in thier commons forum that they were working on being able to do that with the CCT. Not much need to delve deep into the workings to know that. BTW. They have had videos out for some time now on the, how to, about rigging things besides the whole process from start to finish. Again you can only go halfway with it until the CCT is out because that is what you need.

Quote - Now let's take the oft repeated statement that content creation will now be simpler.  

Where's the content?

Yada yada the rest of the quote. Simple answer is they rushed DS4 and Genesis out the door before they had the content ready.

The longer version would be it takes a bit of time for the PA's to learn a new work flow and tools. Which you are confusing, "learning a new work flow," with, "not as much work so should have it out sooner."

Once they, the PA's and the rest of us learn the new work flow. It will be easier to create more stuff with less work and time involved. And if you watch this sale they are having right now. You will see some new stuff and more of it. It is now starting to show up.

Oh there will be content for genesis alright.  when I first bought V3 she was nekkid.