Does anyone know if the new weight-mapping tools will be compatable with the DAZ Genesis figure and D|S rigging?

Quote - Does anyone know if the new weight-mapping tools will be compatable with the DAZ Genesis figure and D|S rigging?

Have you done a search on this topic? It's been done to death here and at RDNA. And the answer is no.

I didn't. My bad. But thank you for the info.

Clarification (so as to avoid confusing people): no, as in nobody knows, except for Smith Micro and DAZ, and they aren't saying anything, yet.

Quote - Clarification (so as to avoid confusing people): no, as in nobody knows, except for Smith Micro and DAZ, and they aren't saying anything, yet.

Not True !!
Steve Copper (of Smith Mocro) wrote a blog to State specifically that there will be no direct support by SM of the genesis Figure within poser.

DAZ has stated repeatedly in their forums and on the DS4 FAQ that the most they are doing is **releasing a generic  Cr2 exporter that may deliver a genesis to poser  **
that is "posable " but frozen in whatever morphed state from with he was exported.

Despite thisSome poser users are in an extreme state of denial and will ignore these official statements and insist that DAZ and or SM are basicly LYING and "MUST" release a fully functional poserized Genesis figure as though it is some fundamental civil right  that must be honored.
it is quite a bizzare phenomenon to witness.

Cheers

Well, I'm not in denial. I really don't care. After all it's just one figure, yet some seem to think that one figure should dictate SM's software developement.

My guess is that Daz will release a crippled version for Poser, which I won't buy. Of course the Poser python wizards haven't gotten started on this deal yet, so who knows.

It's Daz's figure to do with as they please, likewise it's my money to spend as I please.

Quote - DAZ has stated repeatedly in their forums and on the DS4 FAQ that the most they are doing is **releasing a generic  Cr2 exporter that may deliver a genesis to poser  **that is "posable " but frozen in whatever morphed state from with he was exported.

This actually appeals to me. I've gotten tired of resource gobling figures trying to be everything to everyone.

Keep in mind that P9/Pro2012 aren't even out yet and won't be for over a month.  I'll bet a dollar that DAZ will eventually release a Poser-ized version that will work pretty much the same as it does in D|S, with a few incompatible features.

Quote - I'll bet a dollar that DAZ will eventually release a Poser-ized version that will work pretty much the same as it does in D|S, with a few incompatible features.

That would be the most sensible thing.

Either that or release a V4/M4 addon that works with P9's weight mapping system.

what does Poser 9 , pro  offer if it wont support the new line of Daz characters ? 

or what does Genesis have to offer a poser user if it won't work in Poser.:biggrin:

Quote - what does Poser 9 , pro  offer if it wont support the new line of Daz characters ?

For those who actually want to know the answer to this question, follow the link above, and then go read in the Official Poser9/PoserPro2012 Forum at RDNA.

In PoserPro2012, almost any figure can be rigged to provide most of the features that Genesis can offer, and when the very talented Poser user base can get their hands on PoserPro2012, there will be very little to distinguish Genesis from what will be available for Poser users.

Right now, among Poser users, the Genesis figure is more of a concern for content providers than for those of us who have runtimes filled with content we have never yet used.

lmk

Quote - what does Poser 9 , pro  offer if it wont support the new line of Daz characters ? 

A bunch of money for DAZ to make or not make.  Personally I'm pretty sure they'll go with #1.

Huh.  In terms of raw features, it actually looks like the Poser approach to weight mapping went a step further than DAZ did - I don't see that D|S 4 can do weightmapped bulge settings, which tbh is a pretty huge deal.

http://www.runtimedna.com/forum/showthread.php?63341-Samples-of-weighted-bulge-settings

Aside from that, there's some other information on the SM blog:

http://blog.smithmicro.com/2011/08/11/poser-3d/support-for-3rd-party-character-systems-in-poser/

Quote - Many ideas, even some of the interesting ones, come with a consequence, and sometimes those consequences are too dear to accept. This is the case with fully adopting the new Genesis system from Daz. There are some good features in their new system, and those that make sense to us, are supported in a way that would benefit not just Daz, but the whole ecosystem of content developers. Those that do not fit within our strategy of an open system, free from dependencies on technologies that are beyond our control, aren’t in synch with our long term goals for growing Poser. Directly supporting the Genesis system does not meet those needs. However, doing our best to support the features that Genesis can provide to all Poser users is clearly beneficial. We’ve worked closely with Daz, and continue to do so, to confirm that our implementation of Vertex Weight Maps would support their needs, while fully supporting the needs of other developers across the board. **And early tests of content from Daz shows us that indeed our new rigging system does a great job of supporting Daz’s ability to deploy new Weight Mapped and Full Body Morphed content to Poser 9 and Poser Pro 2012 users. ** However, it is up to any and all developers of character content to determine if providing content to Poser users is the right choice for them. And the best we can do is to create a solid, open foundation to deploy those characters and supporting content for them.

Past that, weight and see.  hurhur i maed a joek

Quote - We’ve worked closely with Daz, and continue to do so, to confirm that our implementation of Vertex Weight Maps would support their needs, while fully supporting the needs of other developers across the board. **And early tests of content from Daz shows us that indeed our new rigging system does a great job of supporting Daz’s ability to deploy new Weight Mapped and Full Body Morphed content to Poser 9 and Poser Pro 2012 users. ** However, it is up to any and all developers of character content to determine if providing content to Poser users is the right choice for them. And the best we can do is to create a solid, open foundation to deploy those characters and supporting content for them.

What exactly does that mean? If we can get Genesis into Poser we can morph it into any character we want?

Quote - However, it is up to any and all developers of character content to determine if providing content to Poser users is the right choice for them.

I'm not seeing a "we" (that is, you and me and other users) implied there, in the context of this thread.

Quote - Huh.  In terms of raw features, it actually looks like the Poser approach to weight mapping went a step further than DAZ did - I don't see that D|S 4 can do weightmapped bulge settings, which tbh is a pretty huge deal.

http://www.runtimedna.com/forum/showthread.php?63341-Samples-of-weighted-bulge-settings

the Studio4 rigging does have weight mapped bulge settings.

You know what? It really don't matter. I can convert V4 and others to weightmapped rigging now so I'll have the better bending attributes too. And I don't do much monster or Hulk rendering anyway, if at all. So Genesis really is a non starter for me.

Quote - Not True !!
Steve Copper (of Smith Mocro) wrote a blog to State specifically that there will be no direct support by SM of the genesis Figure within poser.

DAZ has stated repeatedly in their forums and on the DS4 FAQ that the most they are doing is **releasing a generic  Cr2 exporter that may deliver a genesis to poser  **
that is "posable " but frozen in whatever morphed state from with he was exported.

Despite thisSome poser users are in an extreme state of denial and will ignore these official statements and insist that DAZ and or SM are basicly LYING and "MUST" release a fully functional poserized Genesis figure as though it is some fundamental civil right  that must be honored.
it is quite a bizzare phenomenon to witness.

Sometimes (quite often, in fact), you speak the truth and make a lot of sense. This isn't one of those times. I'm not sure what's got you so wound up.

I don't think having Genesis in Poser is a "fundamental civil right", but I seriously doubt that DAZ is so stupid as to cut off a steady source of money just to ensure that DAZ|Studio is as different from Poser as possible, especially in these tough economic times.

I also didn't imply that anyone at DAZ or Smith Micro are lying. However, if DAZ is working on a Poser version of Genesis, you know very well that they'll be very tight-lipped until they're almost ready to release it.

"The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence" - Donald Rumsfeld
I am dubious of his intent when he said it, but it rings very true in this situation.

The DAZ|Studio 4 FAQ states, and I quote,

Quote - Is the GenesisTM series compatible with Poser?
The Genesis series of figures relies on powerful new technologies that are currently exclusive to DAZ Studio 4. However, the new file format that the Genesis series utilizes is an open, ASCII format that can be interpreted easily. DAZ 3D is ready to help all those who are interested in adding support for this new platform within their own tools and applications, such as Poser by Smith Micro. A SDK is currently in development, and DAZ 3D has already reached out to several partners with hopes that they will be able to add support for the Genesis series within their own applications.

If you have a favorite application or tool that you would like to see support this new figure and the underlying technologies, please contact the developers and let them know of your desire to have them support this next generation figure platform in their application.

I see nothing in there that reflects what DAZRand said in the forums about the need to make do with a limited CR2 export. We'll probably have to make do with such initially, but I wouldn't go to too much trouble with tweaking/customizing such figures, as I'm quite certain that a Poserized Genesis will be released in the next few months. I could be wrong, but I doubt it.

So, can we do without all the FUD for a while? That's aimed at several people BTW, here, at the DAZ forums, and at the RDNA forums. Up until your reply above, you weren't one of them :)

"Quote - "However, it is up to any and all developers of character content to determine if providing content to Poser users is the right choice for them.""

There, in a few lines of text ,is the Crucial Element in this "affair"
Content Support AND Brand Marketing Makes or breaks a figure/ product in any market ,largely unrelated to how Awesome or non Awesome that figure product may be as a standalone.

Apollo Max in some respects was the Erstwhile "Genesis " of his Dayand although there were other "factors " that sent him to the Ash bin of poser history, his content support from parties ,other than his builder, was never strong.
and by the time he became free no one cared any longer.

How many thread upon threads have there been about V4's Flawed shoulders??
Yet this Figure was Clearly the Winner in ever category of content support.
why?? slick marketing

Antonia?? Nice try, Nice Effort by the builder of the figure and FREE.!!!
but again you will not succeed without a huge marketing juggernaught
and the tired old:***"use this one if you hate/Spite DAZ inc"***mentality ,will take a product only so far in reality.(see Apollo)

""what does Poser 9 , pro  offer if it wont support the new line of Daz characters ? "

Well you can now use a better bending weight mapped Ryan and Alison  2.0 .....and a new Dragon model

Seriously?? IIRC poorly bending joints was among the most complimentary things  people in this
community were saying about those figures and where was the demand for a new poser Dragon??

The ability to more easily create a piece of conforming clothing and add weight mapping to all of your Old
Content is a nice featurefor those so inclined to spend time undertaking theses tasks.
But frankly I am doubtful that this is truly a great incentive for a user base  that  still uses commercial character morph packs that are made  from the result of
careful in app Dial turning.

Notice how the most enthusiastic proponents of PP2012 are beta testersmost of whom  who sell poser content
that is Fine and fair and above board.

But I notice how the most enthusiastic supporters of genesis are the DAZ Studio  users who have already fallen victims to the Marketing hype and have a FREE base version/program to play with while they wait for the inevitable flow of new content for it.

Cheers

"I see nothing in there that reflects what DAZRand said in the forums about the need to make do with a limited CR2 export. We'll probably have to make do with such initially, but I wouldn't go to too much trouble with tweaking/customizing such figures, as I'm quite certain that a Poserized Genesis will be released in the next few months. I could be wrong, but I doubt it.

So, can we do without all the FUD for a while? That's aimed at several people BTW, here, at the DAZ forums, and at the RDNA forums. Up until your reply above, you weren't one of them :)"

Hi Richard ,we both read this:

"DAZ 3D is ready to help all those who are interested in adding support for this new platform within their own tools and applications, such as Poser by Smith Micro. A SDK is currently in development, and DAZ 3D has already reached out to several partners with hopes that they will be able to add support for the Genesis series within their own applications.

If you have a favorite application or tool that you would like to see support this new figure and the underlying technologies, please contact the developers and let them know of your desire to have them support this next generation figure platform in their application."

Smith Micro has already done just this
and said"no thanks"

Nowhere do I see in the Daz statement a promise that:
"if you decide NOT to Alter your host App for our genesis Model( as SM has decided)
We will spare no effort to hack you out a custom genesis ourselves to insure you wont have to bother installing our
DS4 Application"

People are free to have opinions and speculation about what might happen but I prefer Go by what has been reported by the involved parties thus far

oh!!! and Quoting one of the most notorious,Lying Mass murderers in recent history(Rumsfeld) does not help your point BTW.

Cheers

It's near impossible to challenge the Daz Figure/Content marketing machine.  Only way it could be done is if SM created a similar mechanism to push their wares. Who knows if that will EVER happen.

But isn't the real issue here economics?  Despite all the testerone being sprayed needlessly on the deckplates, Daz & SM are both businesses who have almost certainly seen their revenue fall significantly.  One gets the impression that between the perpetual sales, Vault auctions, platinum nonsense, and every other scheme daz has cooked up, they have taken a large hit in recent years.  I'm reading comments on both sides of daz/poser users who have spent so much for V4/M4/Daz-rendo-rdna content etc, that Daz(and everyone else) is probably going to sell much less in the near term than planned.  Same goes for other sites as well.  Couple that with increasinly rampant piracy and an economic recession/depression created by these self-appointed financial "masters" of the universe and you have the makings of a very bad brew.  If things get much worse economically, will the purchase-addict mentality, "loyalty" of it's users to either app/figure type, whatever,.. be enough? 

With the same logic as those predisposed to buying content pack dialspins and more of the same clothing types, I wonder how much revenue poser/daz is really going to generate.  However they do, I really think it won't be worth taking the financial hit for both companies to go separate ways, at this point. Perhaps if times were better...

Personally, I too think the posturing will go on a bit longer, but I'm interested to see what the bottomline will force both these companies to do in the months ahead (if anything).  There is simply too much speculation mixed with fact/rumor/innuendo out there to know, for now.

Quote - oh!!! and Quoting one of the most notorious,Lying Mass murderers in recent history(Rumsfeld) does not help your point BTW.

I don't know if anybody has ever told you but seriously your posts look like the Unabomber Manifesto.

edit: and I mean that in the nicest possible way

Quote - the Studio4 rigging does have weight mapped bulge settings.

Then really they ought to mention that on their features page, because it's a major positive feature in D|S 4, almost as big as weighted bends themselves.

Quote -  

I don't know if anybody has ever told you but seriously your posts look like the Unabomber Manifesto.

edit: and I mean that in the nicest possible way

Can the unibomber Legally sue for plaigarism??(sp)

That Gutless norwegian Child Killer lifted from him in large portion for his own "Manifesto"
they say in reports

But hey Maybe the genesis model can find Rumsfeld's/Saddams Missing WMD's  and we can justify all the US soldiers& Iraqi civilians  sacrificed  in Iraq
but we digress.

Cheers

Quote -

oh!!! and Quoting one of the most notorious,Lying Mass murderers in recent history(Rumsfeld) does not help your point BTW.

Cheers

Libelous and Defamatory - a TOS twofer !

Congratulations!

"Then really they ought to mention that on their features page, because it's a major positive feature in D|S 4, almost as big as weighted bends themselves."

Another Feature that is not mentioned  on  the DS4 feature page That you would think would be touted to Animators  is MDD output

The ability to bake an animated mesh to PLA
(an objects motion and displacements baked onto each vertex. This would allow, for example a character animated via bones, morphs and other displacements to have all that baked onto a single mesh on a per vertex basis.)

Export the figure as a textured .obj file
Import and Apply that MDD animation data to the .obj and you have the figure animated and ready to render in
C4D, Maya Lightwave 3D, MODO,Softimage or Blender

Very light on System resources as it is just a hollow mesh with no bone deformation to calculate

Some guy over at CG talk did a small test with the Daz genesis and rendered him animated in C4D
here: http://vimeo.com/27875972

Since C4D with IPP can bake  to PLA This is has been possible for a while.even without DAZ providing MDD export.

as I did with this really Old DAZ figure over two years ago and renderd him in MODO401 using the MODO "replicator" Function
http://vimeo.com/6654263

MDD I/O is pretty Old technology but still a useable option for transferring animated meshes between the different apps.

Cheers

I may be misunderstanding you, but Poser can actually already do this (export point level animation).

File -> Export -> Wavefront OBJ

grabbed from above...

The DAZ|Studio 4 FAQ states, and I quote,

Quote - Is the GenesisTM series compatible with Poser?
The Genesis series of figures relies on powerful new technologies that are currently exclusive to DAZ Studio 4. However, the new file format that the Genesis series utilizes is an open, ASCII format that can be interpreted easily.

Time for the dumbest question of the week!

I have seen talk about a file that has the Genesis character in it (sort of like a Cr2 I assume) that has an extension something like .dsf....So if DAZ states the file " file format that the Genesis series utilizes is an open, ASCII format", has anybody bothered to try to open the file with a text editor?

If it is just an ascii text file then it is going to be a lot easier to read the file via a script and convert to a poser .cr2 file I would think. But elsewhere I thought I read that the file was compiled.

which is it?

Quote - > Quote - The ability to bake an animated mesh to PLA

I may be misunderstanding you, but Poser can actually already do this (export point level animation).

File -> Export -> Wavefront OBJ

Yes poser can Export a single  Static Wavefront object or a cumbersome series  of static wavefront  objects, this however  is not  point level animation Data
as found in an MDD file
with MDD I/O
you create your character animation and "Bake" the motion to PLA
search your C4D manual for "pointcache"

In C4D you Do Need either Riptide pro or a FREE MDDI/O plugin
thats floating about .
this MDD file allows you to export only the position Data of the vertices over the range of each frame
This Data is applied to a single copy of the object file you may have imported into MODO,Maya ,Blender etc  and the mesh now takes on the original animation you created  back in the original Character animation program DAZ studio, Messiah  etc
lipsinc,eyeblinks karate fighting whatever.
if poser could do this it would make it possible to Bake a cloth sim to PLA

like blowing curtain for example and share the pre animated cloth prop with anyone without any re-simulation.

Cheers

I don'r see why there would be any issues with this in Poser...

http://neutralzone.de/database/Federation/Probe/GenesisDevice.htm

However, I'd keep it away from the Unabomber and Eugenics War-era dictators...

Quote - Yes poser can Export a single  Static Wavefront object or a cumbersome series  of static wavefront  objects, this however  is not  point level animation Data
as found in an MDD file

Hi, thanks for the wordy explanation that I didn't need, but yes sequential OBJ export IS point level animation data.  MDD format might be more efficient, but that's a different matter.  Cinema doesn't handle either form of import anyway without plugins, so uh, whatever.

Quote - > Quote - Hi, I didn't need,  MDD format might be more efficient, but that's a different matter.  Cinema doesn't handle either form of import anyway without plugins, so uh, whatever.

 

Cinema as well as MAX, Maya all use plugins/Scripts  to do alot of things
but thats life in CG these days right.

But actually Cinema can Do this with  its built in expresso but your scene gets very heavy
if you have 300 copies Sanctumarts  polygon heavy grim model  you exported from poser for a 300 frame animation switching visibil ty from one to the next for each copy/frame
and  OH!!! forget about doing this with a sequence blenders fluid .obj files

which is why MDD DATA like the kind exported from DAZ studio 4/LW/MAX /MAYA et al is much better since it requires only one object file with its textures in the same folder.

hope this helps

Cheers

I have a suspicion that "increasinly rampant piracy" doesn't affect merchants as much as everyone thinks, because people who pirate probably never buy things and probably never would. ie if they can't pirate it they would rather do without it.  Also since they couldn't really do any great successful works with it ie if they made a movie or novel cover or something with poser and it did well then they could be sued I really don't think these people would buy stuff anyway.  At least I don't think they would buy much stuff even if there was some magic way we could stop them from pirating anything.

Love esther

Quote - which is why MDD DATA like the kind exported from DAZ studio 4/LW/MAX /MAYA et al is much better since it requires only one object file with its textures in the same folder.

not what you were talking about earlier but okay

Quote - I have a suspicion that "increasinly rampant piracy" doesn't affect merchants as much as everyone thinks, because people who pirate probably never buy things and probably never would. ie if they can't pirate it they would rather do without it.  Also since they couldn't really do any great successful works with it ie if they made a movie or novel cover or something with poser and it did well then they could be sued I really don't think these people would buy stuff anyway.  At least I don't think they would buy much stuff even if there was some magic way we could stop them from pirating anything.

Love esther

Perhaps not  as much in the near term (last 2-3 years). But, it is a contributing factor.  It's definitely a sore point for long time vendors at Daz who bring it up on more than one occasion. Just read some of the "It's not fair" themed threads over there to get a sense of their frustration.

Back around 2002-2004, when torrenting wasn't so rapid and widespread, unit sales for certain vendors were significantly higher.  There were of course other factors at work, but I do know at least one rather successful merchant who simply got tired of seeing his work ripped off on numerous sites, lower/slower sales (even with new releases), and an increasing shift toward the $1.99 Platinum nonsense mentality. His last release being around 2008, before he left the market entirely.

His biggest complaint was as Blackhearted stated in another thread..it's amazing what people have come to expect for 10$ when you consider the time and effort invested to make these products. 

And NOW,with MANY of these products appearing mere hours/days after release on torrents/megaupload/etc, I really have to wonder how many vendors (current and potential) just called it quits.

But back on topic, is it a factor?, yes.  Is it the biggest and/or only one?, no. 

I think vendors assume that every pirated download is a sale lost and it just isn't so.  But they count up the dollars they think they could have got and get very upset.

Love esther

Probably a majority of the people who pirate products would never buy, but in a market where 500 sales is considered a successful release, even if 10% of the people who do pirate would buy stuff it could almost double the sales, and as such you would have more venders who could activly make products.

It does take alot of time and effort to make a product, and when it is pirated within hours of release it really does make you wonder why you even bother.

OT, but somehow fits into this file format debate: Here is a little python script i made to convert a series of wavefront obj files to an mdd file. It is a standalone program (not to be called from within poser). Use it like this:

python obj_to_mdd.py -o output.mdd model_0.obj model_1.obj ....

Because of the naming of the poser-exported obj files, you can usually use something like this:

python obj_to_mdd.py -o output.mdd model_?.obj model_??.obj

I did not try this with a Mac, sometimes there are problems with line endings. Still requires you to save the obj files (so still a lot of disk space used), but otherwise it is a way to get Poser's cloth animations into blender, for example.

Quote -

OT, but somehow fits into this file format debate: Here is a little python script i made to convert a series of wavefront obj files to an mdd file. It is a standalone program (not to be called from within poser). Use it like this:

python obj_to_mdd.py -o output.mdd model_0.obj model_1.obj ....

Because of the naming of the poser-exported obj files, you can usually use something like this:

python obj_to_mdd.py -o output.mdd model_?.obj model_??.obj

I did not try this with a Mac, sometimes there are problems with line endings. Still requires you to save the obj files (so still a lot of disk space used), but otherwise it is a way to get Poser's cloth animations into blender, for example.

Hi I was unable to get your script to run as a standalone on OSX poser6

But it appears there is an old  Commercial Python pack (windows only p 6-7) that can export poser cloth as MDD

 Ahhhh the magic of Python.

SEE HERE

Cheers

Quote - ... Hi I was unable to get your script to run as a standalone on OSX poser6

But it appears there is an old  Commercial Python pack (windows only p 6-7) that can export poser cloth as MDD

 Ahhhh the magic of Python.

SEE HERE

Cheers

Too bad :-(... I tested this with linux thinking that Mac and linux are almost the same nowadays, but apparently they are not. Anyway, if you could make use of it and have too much time and you would like to waste it on testing, PM me :-)

@Millighost  PM sent to you.

Cheers

Quote - Probably a majority of the people who pirate products would never buy, but in a market where 500 sales is considered a successful release, even if 10% of the people who do pirate would buy stuff it could almost double the sales, and as such you would have more venders who could activly make products.

It does take alot of time and effort to make a product, and when it is pirated within hours of release it really does make you wonder why you even bother.

I am gladsmoe vendors continue to bother but I mourn the loss of some very talented vendors due to the 'must have it for free' brigade.

With the exception of the items that are offered for free, I paid for every piece of software I use, 3D related or not.  I never pass on copies of my software, even to friends yet I am regarded as being wierd by many.  Now I know am probably wierd, buy not for this reason although I do wonder if I am in the minority.  I suspect that I am in a healthy majority but the pirates get more attention.

Quote - grabbed from above...

The DAZ|Studio 4 FAQ states, and I quote,

Quote - Is the GenesisTM series compatible with Poser?
The Genesis series of figures relies on powerful new technologies that are currently exclusive to DAZ Studio 4. However, the new file format that the Genesis series utilizes is an open, ASCII format that can be interpreted easily.

Time for the dumbest question of the week!

I have seen talk about a file that has the Genesis character in it (sort of like a Cr2 I assume) that has an extension something like .dsf....So if DAZ states the file " file format that the Genesis series utilizes is an open, ASCII format", has anybody bothered to try to open the file with a text editor?

If it is just an ascii text file then it is going to be a lot easier to read the file via a script and convert to a poser .cr2 file I would think. But elsewhere I thought I read that the file was compiled.

which is it?

 

 

I think there was some confusion from some people who assumed the new .dsf format was the same as the old .daz scene file format which was complied, the .dsf format is definately open ASCII format.

Quote - I think there was some confusion from some people who assumed the new .dsf format was the same as the old .daz scene file format which was complied, the .dsf format is definately open ASCII format.

Ahh, that would explain the very, very hostile reaction I got (in another thread) when I suggested SM should rethink their rejection of DSF import in Poser 9.

Quote - I have a suspicion that "increasinly rampant piracy" doesn't affect merchants as much as everyone thinks, because people who pirate probably never buy things and probably never would. ie if they can't pirate it they would rather do without it.  Also since they couldn't really do any great successful works with it ie if they made a movie or novel cover or something with poser and it did well then they could be sued I really don't think these people would buy stuff anyway.  At least I don't think they would buy much stuff even if there was some magic way we could stop them from pirating anything.

Love esther

"because people who pirate probably never buy things and probably never would. ie if they can't pirate it they would rather do without it."

That is what you are supposed to believe, yet there is evidence strongly refuting this assumption.  Consider a Norwegian study of online music purchasing:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2009/apr/21/study-finds-pirates-buy-more-music

The study found that "compared to music buyers, music sharers (pirates) are…

• 31% more likely to buy single tracks online.
• 33% more likely to buy music albums online.
• 100% more likely to pay for music subscription services.
• 60% more likely to pay for music on mobile phone."

Many people who pirate are simply (obsessive?) collectors, or people who choose carefully where to spend limited resources and therefore see piracy as a way to either have a larger library or to sample something they do not feel comfortable spending money on.  I have seen this with computer games as well, the biggest pirates also always bought more software.  I personally don't think anyone should pirate anything they would otherwise buy.  However I do disagree with the idea that every pirated copy is a lost sale, or that no pirate would ever buy anything.  I'd expect the main difference between a non-pirating person and a casual pirate is that the pirate doesn't let having to engage in piracy prevent them from having/listening to/viewing/playing whatever they choose.  I have suspicions that the industry doesn't see piracy of "product A" as affecting the sales of "product A" so much as it actually affects the sales of "product B".  A pirate may decide a movie simply doesn't look to be worth paying for but would still watch the movie to pass time (given a pirated copy), rather than buying and watching a movie they do deem worth paying for.  I figure this applies to content as well.  Has an artist ever been caught brazenly using "pirated" content by a vendor?

I still don't think a merchant should look at a pirated download and think that is money that they missed out on as that is not always the case. But that is what a lot of people do - they find out that 1000s of downloads of their product has happened and say "wow I missed outon 10000 dollars.  But I am sure that isn't right.  Maybe even no money at all was missed.  it's not quantifiable.

I could be wrong (in view of your survey) but I think a person making 3D pics is a different case.  Especially as if they sell a render a vendor could come and say, "hey I dont' remember selling you that thing"

 Also they might buy a different thing and not that thing with their limited resources if they had to choose.

Love esther

Piracy probably does represent some loss though.  but not a quantifiable loss.

Quote - Piracy probably does represent some loss though.  but not a quantifiable loss.

Piracy will always be a major problem for vendors.  It hurts to see months of YOUR marketable work being taken by others for nothing and see thread posts at these warez sites about how generous it is that others are "sharing". The monetary loss isnt the only thing.  Frankly, I'd be PO too. 

it's even better when the little motherfuckers SIGN YOUR WORK WITH THEIR NAME

well each file could be embedded with some hidden line in the Cr2 say that is individual, so if someone is challenged about what they used to make their render with they could send the maker a copy of the Cr2 and if it doesn't have the right text they could be prosecuted maybe.

If some of them were caught it might stop. 

You could trap them with a certain texture that would actually show up in the render.