""OK, I just checked my post at CGS... I really am steamed. I wanted to ask a question in a neutral place about weight mapping."

Hi reading your post at CGS I am curious as to your intention in going there for poser pro weight mapping info instead  of the official PP2012  tech thread at RDNA.

you also claim to be seeking an opinion of PP2012
Well as of this morning it looks like some guy over there (THX33? or something ) gave you his opinion of poser pro 2012  as a professional tool and I can not honestly disagree with any of  his/her assessment.

Frankly it is time to clear up this fever swamped poserverse  mythology about the "snobbery" at CG Society .

CGS is a forum for professionals working in Films VFX broadcast graphics,TV and Game Developement you often see posts by people from weta digital, ILM blue sky pictures etc.
and the rest are people aspiring to be working at such  places and Freelancers who are using  either
MAX,MAYA, HOUDINI, SOFTIMAGE CINEMA4D
MODO  LW etc.,

Now understand this:
when it comes to CG characters the only reason any user of the above programs will like ever even use a humanoid figure is to ANIMATE IT. for a Film,TV.Videogame of VFX shot in a movie.

Yes they have a still image gallery over there but it is for modelors ,textures and rigging TD's to showcase their work to get a job in the industry or freelance contract

for Film,TV.Videogame of VFX shots in a movie
they use assets( industry standard rigs textures etc.) that are designed for collaborative team projects and can be referenced to many workstations from a central server.

MAX,MAYA, HOUDINI, SOFTIMAGE have this referencing ability with some custom in house scripting.

Now when you go there(CGS) and try to promote poser/DAZ  studio as some sort of tool in those pipelines you are wasting you time as poser/Daz has no useful place  in those pipelines
for very valid technical reasons.

Daz has proudly announced that they are releasing a plugin the will "give MAYA user the option to import genesis with full functionality  it has in DAZ studio"

I tried to Explain to Dan Farr that NO one in the
 Film,TV.Videogame or VFX field using MAX,MAYA, HOUDINI, SOFTIMAGE etc  has any need for such a figure
for the reasons stated above
My post was promptly DELETED
later I was contacted by the forum staff who offered to reinstate My post if I re-wrote it and  removed any references to why users of: MAX,MAYA, HOUDINI, SOFTIMAGE in the Film,TV.Videogame or VFX field have no need for genesis.

they dont get it.
and neither does the OP of this thread apparently.

Cheers
 
 
 

Quote - OK, I just checked my post at CGS... I really am steamed. I wanted to ask a question in a neutral place about weight mapping. But that was before I found out about poser sucking and such over there. Now I am even more angry, because strangely they think I came there to be validated?! o0 No I came to ask a technical question and was curious.

I even now, don't understand what the issue with poser and purchased models is! They buy them! Just from TurboSquid and other places like that and even tho they aren't people, they are props. Still the same thing tho.

I do appreciate the lively intercourse we generated here tho!

I create and sell at mainly conventions and commisioned pieces. I never post my best, because generally there is this rule on LE's in California, so I have to keep them private to protect the consumer. But that isn't my point. If I make something, and it sells, I do so by using a model I buy and creating a setting unique unto the piece, I don't "take it out of the box" render as is and just stick it on a page! Which is how any of us who do art do it. So why if we can sell the finished resulting render, did we not create? Why is it necessary to even defend the work?

But it gets better too... I am from now on, never going to second guess my work. Because anytime I feel unsure, I know there is a whole community just waiting to rip it to shreds... based on the program alone. So what have I got to lose!!! :D

I have to nap, but I just bought Maddilerium's new character, and I can't wait to do her justice!

thank you all... and good nite!
HugZ!
Ariana

yes you did go there to be validated. sorry. the whole damn post was "accept poser!!! validate it!!!"

if you can't see that, then sorry.. you need to sit and rethink your intentions. your seeing snobbery where there isn't any and quite frankly I wish you'd shut up about it and get on with your life.

rant and yell at me if you need to, but thats the plain truth.

Quote - I tried to Explain to Dan Farr that NO one in the
 Film,TV.Videogame or VFX field using MAX,MAYA, HOUDINI, SOFTIMAGE etc  has any need for such a figure

I call BS, and the evidence is as close as the nearest Omnaris (nasal spray) commercial in the US. In it, you get to see Poser's James figure and his clones, bigger than life and carrying a (to them) ginormous bottle of nasal spray, marching right into some actor's nose with it.

You can also find evidence in the nearest airline ticket kiosk, grocery store checkout kiosk, and etc.

Just because you don't see it in a eye-searing 3D blockbuster film (blech) doesn't mean that such figures don't get used.

Quote - > Quote - OK, I just checked my post at CGS... I really am steamed. I wanted to ask a question in a neutral place about weight mapping. But that was before I found out about poser sucking and such over there. Now I am even more angry, because strangely they think I came there to be validated?! o0 No I came to ask a technical question and was curious.

Well, yanno - maybe actually asking  your questions might have given you some useful answers?

There even is a "Character Rigging" forum at CGS. 

Rushing in and complaining that Poser isn't treated fair doesn't really help get a reasonable reaction.... :rolleyes:

Yes I agree. I was really upset that before I even got a response to my question, which I actually did post but pulled, I started seeing all of these poser-hating posts. It was immature of me and I actually regret my  pulling that question and ranting... BUT! I have to say of the nearly 30 posts I encountered. The tone was the same in each and every one. One of the common comments was "we" (*poser users) were stealing work and business from the "Pros".

Now I do not know how this sentiment occurred unless there is some jealousy and insecurity on thier part. I mean Robyn is right, it is two different forms of a simuliar medium and one is not exactly used in high end animation, I did specify 3D-2D art. It's like music, you have Stevie Ray Vaughn, and you have Jimmy Page... neither is the same style but both are brilliant at their craft. (*sorry I picked guitarists I love).

So I honestly do not see why any "Pro" would be so pissed off about a program, those who use it or weither they are the judge of all artwork created. I mean, I sort of don't care for anime but you don't see me going over to the anime gallery and bashing them! It is just a different art form to me. Some is really nice, most looks flat. But it isn't bothering me either!

But in all honesty, it was sort of a shocking revalation that people could be so vehement about any other person(s) who do art. And yes, anytime you create to express it is art.

So i stand corrected in my reaction.
Thank you for pointing out the obvious. I appreciate your input.
Ariana

Quote - ""OK, I just checked my post at CGS... I really am steamed. I wanted to ask a question in a neutral place about weight mapping."

Hi reading your post at CGS I am curious as to your intention in going there for poser pro weight mapping info instead  of the official PP2012  tech thread at RDNA.

you also claim to be seeking an opinion of PP2012
Well as of this morning it looks like some guy over there (THX33? or something ) gave you his opinion of poser pro 2012  as a professional tool and I can not honestly disagree with any of  his/her assessment.

Frankly it is time to clear up this fever swamped poserverse  mythology about the "snobbery" at CG Society .

CGS is a forum for professionals working in Films VFX broadcast graphics,TV and Game Developement you often see posts by people from weta digital, ILM blue sky pictures etc.
and the rest are people aspiring to be working at such  places and Freelancers who are using  either
MAX,MAYA, HOUDINI, SOFTIMAGE CINEMA4D
MODO  LW etc.,

Now understand this:
when it comes to CG characters the only reason any user of the above programs will like ever even use a humanoid figure is to ANIMATE IT. for a Film,TV.Videogame of VFX shot in a movie.

Yes they have a still image gallery over there but it is for modelors ,textures and rigging TD's to showcase their work to get a job in the industry or freelance contract

for Film,TV.Videogame of VFX shots in a movie
they use assets( industry standard rigs textures etc.) that are designed for collaborative team projects and can be referenced to many workstations from a central server.

MAX,MAYA, HOUDINI, SOFTIMAGE have this referencing ability with some custom in house scripting.

Now when you go there(CGS) and try to promote poser/DAZ  studio as some sort of tool in those pipelines you are wasting you time as poser/Daz has no useful place  in those pipelines
for very valid technical reasons.

Daz has proudly announced that they are releasing a plugin the will "give MAYA user the option to import genesis with full functionality  it has in DAZ studio"

I tried to Explain to Dan Farr that NO one in the
 Film,TV.Videogame or VFX field using MAX,MAYA, HOUDINI, SOFTIMAGE etc  has any need for such a figure
for the reasons stated above
My post was promptly DELETED
later I was contacted by the forum staff who offered to reinstate My post if I re-wrote it and  removed any references to why users of: MAX,MAYA, HOUDINI, SOFTIMAGE in the Film,TV.Videogame or VFX field have no need for genesis.

they dont get it.
and neither does the OP of this thread apparently.

Cheers
 
 
 

First and foremost, I was not aware that the site was only for animators, and I guess there was my error. I have always gone there to the photoshop areas.

Oh I can answer this easily. I have been kicking around the notion of buying a more expensive program, and altho CGS does not reccomend software and it is against their policy to do so. I had hoped that by getting some "neutral" as in non-poser, comments I could make a decision if I wanted to "buy up". Sometimes by asking a general question, I have seen many really informative answers there that I liked. Mostly about photoshop.

I have been going to CGS for a really long time. But mostly lurking to get my feet wet and feel comfy. Saddly I got sucked in by negativity, and lashed out before thinking. I had planned to write DSW today and apologize. *sigh I hate to say I was reactive, but since I actually do have a degree, just in a different art medium and all, I do take offense to bashers. I would never think to discourage any artist in learning, growing or developing their skills. So to bash poser user's as "Lame" and "Hacks", is not constructive, or professional. It is just plain mean spirited. What if a real Newb, went there to ask a question, and got lambasted like some of the others I saw there? And they walked away from whatever program (*not on the "approved" list) they used because they were flat out told they suck? that was where my reaction came from.

Ariana

I don't call myself an artist, so I don't feel that I'm cheating. And if folk want to make a point of saying that I don't do 'real' art, that's fine - and when they present a properly argued, objective, non-arbitrary, exclusive definition of art to support what they say, I might even care. Really.

There are anti-poser folk in the CGS crowd and they can be quite vocal. How representative they are of the community in general is a very different question, I suspect that most don't care a great deal either way and I'm not sure why I should either.

For myself, I started using Poser because I needed to create some images. I judge what I do with it in the simplest way I can: Does it do what I need it to? What else should matter to me?

yes you did go there to be validated. sorry. the whole damn post was "accept poser!!! validate it!!!"

if you can't see that, then sorry.. you need to sit and rethink your intentions. your seeing snobbery where there isn't any and quite frankly I wish you'd shut up about it and get on with your life.

rant and yell at me if you need to, but thats the plain truth.

Gee... sorry. Hope this makes you feel better too.
Ariana

not at all.  there are many mediums beyond pencil and paper.

interior design, landscaping,

"I call BS, and the evidence is as close as the nearest Omnaris (nasal spray) commercial in the US. In it, you get to see Poser's James figure and his clones, bigger than life and carrying a (to them) ginormous bottle of nasal spray, marching right into some actor's nose with it.

You can also find evidence in the nearest airline ticket kiosk, grocery store checkout kiosk, and etc.

Just because you don't see it in a eye-searing 3D blockbuster film (blech) doesn't mean that such figures don't get used."

Your point being what exactly??
So you, like nearly all of us, have witnessed a "poser sighting"  on TV.. so what
I never said those figures dont get used professional capacity for simple animation projects
Go HERE
 
and you will see me listed  at the bottum as
"animator" in this well funded indie film project  and yes I used P6 and SM "koji" for the 30 second Skateboarding video game sequence
in the film.

Does my freelance work and your little "poser sightings" translate into an actual need for
"a plugin that will give Maya users a fully functioning  DAZ genesis in Maya"??  ... NO

What would be the point?
as I explained to Dan Farr
the Maya user will need it rigged for Maya
not "hosted" from Daz studio.
Who  using MAYA will buy a Daz plugin
Import genesis and re-rig with a proper human IK/FK skeleton it to use Vicky or "anubus" in Maya
the same for MAX Houdini etc.
this plugin Like their game dev kit for V-chick
is DOA in the pro pipelines they appear to be approaching.

Cheers

Well for what it's worth I wrote an apology. mainly because I did the same thing they have done, and that was I  got all indignant and that doesn't make me any better then they were. I am better then that. So I said my piece and hope that makes all feel better.

I still consider poser a valuable and wonderful program for any artist that wants to put something into it.

...and I am still an artist. ;)

HugZ!
Ariana

CG Society is far too commercial. Well commercial can be both positive and negative but in this sense I mean negative.

Or am I the only one who doesn't like the 3D animation plastified translucent look? Animation is not the only thing in film business. Trying to pass of 3D figures as real persons (or horror mix 3D figures with real actors!) is bound to failure and is only looking creepy.

No I reject both being a hobbyist and a cartoon illustrator. I want to be a real artist, equaling or preferably surpassing the old masters. If stills were enough for Rembrandt it is enough for me. I enjoy more a picture of a painting master than any new product from Pixar.

Elmer Diktonius, the great Finnish writer and poet has said, "it is from todays anomalies tomorrows art will emerge".

Tomorrows new artist will more probably come from places like Renderosity, where you are given ample place to experiment and play. And not from the rigid commercial animated trash.

Unfortunately my willingness to take in more alien creatures and space ships is limited. CGS is not the only ones who can be snobbish.

LOL! Did you see the CG wolves in the New Moon Twilight movie? Even I could morph one better then those! But the point is well taken. My hero is Frank Frazetta. If only my oil painting skills were even close...*sigh. Then there is Michelangelo but give me a block of marble or alabaster and you'll end up with non-absorbent kitty litter!

But if wishes were fishes we'd all dine tonight.

Ariana

Why would it make me feel guilty or like I'm cheating?

I write. I draw a little. I paint very little.  Poser is a tool that I use to express my creative side.

So what if it's using premade models and textures. There is more to using Poser than clicking buttons and loading a figure, adding a texture and rendering.

Quote - "I call BS, and the evidence is as close as the nearest Omnaris (nasal spray) commercial in the US. In it, you get to see Poser's James figure and his clones, bigger than life and carrying a (to them) ginormous bottle of nasal spray, marching right into some actor's nose with it.

You can also find evidence in the nearest airline ticket kiosk, grocery store checkout kiosk, and etc.

Just because you don't see it in a eye-searing 3D blockbuster film (blech) doesn't mean that such figures don't get used."

Your point being what exactly??
So you, like nearly all of us, have witnessed a "poser sighting"  on TV.. so what
I never said those figures dont get used professional capacity for simple animation projects

You said that "NO" one (emphasis yours) uses it professionally for film, TV, etc etc.

It's right there, in your own commentary, and even in the very post I'm replying to.

However, it gets used for animation in the professional animation realm, by simple evidence that it is already there. Your reply is like saying that the sun doesn't exist, outdoor daylight be damned.

( ...and before anyone tries it, I define "professional" it simply as: "providing animated mesh in exchange for money and/or other goods, to be broadcast on a public medium." You may have your own ideas as to what it means. )

Quote - Does my freelance work and your little "poser sightings" translate into an actual need for
"a plugin that will give Maya users a fully functioning  DAZ genesis in Maya"?? 

I noticed that you jumped to a really big conclusion, and I can tell this because you misquoted the original statement very badly. So, let's get the original quote out:

" Another example is a plug in we are working on that loads a full Genesis figure directly into Maya with the same functionality as in DAZ Studio or Carrara 8.5 (beta will be available soon) . Many more bridges will come in the future. " 

-ref: http://forum.daz3d.com/viewtopic.php?t=170801

So, I see that you have already defined this "functionality" far differently that what may be originally intended. Did they say it was a D|S plugin, or a Maya plugin? Does that "functionality" mean you can load stuff (morphs, clothes, textures) onto a properly imported and boned figure (already imported via FBX plugin), or does it mean, as you keep saying, that the plguin turns Maya into some glorified version of D|S?  

Fact is, you don't know how this thing would work yet because it doesn't exist yet. 

All we know is that...

1. You will be able to shove the Genesis mesh into Maya (and --speculation time-- if the existing FBX plugin is any indication? Skeleton, texture extraction, and all those other bits will probably be done for you already).

2. you'll be able to do some stuff with that figure in Maya that you're normally able to do with it in D|S4 or D|S4A, which would require excess time to mimic within Maya itself. As to what, we do not know yet because it hasn't been built.

Now if you have something form DAZ that clarifies what the thing will do or not do, let's see it.

Quote - ...is DOA in the pro pipelines they appear to be approaching.

That's for DAZ and the Maya-using folk to decide. Unless you own DAZ or you're the only Maya user left in existence, it's not your decision. 

/P

Quote -  Trying to pass of 3D figures as real persons (or horror mix 3D figures with real actors!) is bound to failure and is only looking creepy.

Welcome to the Uncanny Valley! Please have your complimentary barf bag handy, and kindly keep your arms and legs inside the car at all times. Thank you. 

Sometimes, if it's done right, and you know going in that it's CG, awesome. If you can mix/match a CG still with a photographic background (or vice-versa), cool. Mixing the two in animation poorly may keep the trailer park denizens entertained, but honestly, I think it's too thin of a tightrope for most to walk worth a damn and still be called artistic.

Quote - If stills were enough for Rembrandt it is enough for me. I enjoy more a picture of a painting master than any new product from Pixar.

I'm kind of a 'stills' guy myself. I don't care if it moves or not, and it seems that keeping it in one spot forces you to concentrate more on the composition.

Funny enough, doing stills instead of animation also helps give you some slack in that aforementioned uncanny valley as well. :)

Quote - Tomorrows new artist will more probably come from places like Renderosity, where you are given ample place to experiment and play. And not from the rigid commercial animated trash.

I hope not... I mean, I like naked chicks and swords as much as the next guy, but seriously? Not in my art museum you won't!

(you know I'm only kidding here, right?)

"you know I'm only kidding here, right?"

Yes I know. Still, you should visit the Vue galleries more often..  The Poser guys will come along as the circumstances mature.

Edit: Nice definition of commercial. But I prefer my own, "something like Jack Vettriano"

"His original paintings now regularly fetch six figure prices, but he is thought to make more money from the sale of reproductions. According to The Guardian, he earns £500,000 a year in print royalties. Each year a new set of limited edition prints are published, and his most popular work, The Singing Butler (which does not actually show a butler singing), sells more posters and postcards than any other artist in the UK. On 21 April 2004 the original canvas of The Singing Butler sold at auction for £744,500 — in stark contrast to 1992 when Vettriano painted the picture and submitted it for inclusion in the Royal Academy summer show, only to be rejected."

Fact is, you don't know how this thing would work yet because it doesn't exist yet.

All we know is that...

1) You will be able to shove the Genesis mesh into Maya (and --speculation time-- if the existing FBX plugin is any indication? Skeleton, texture extraction, and all those other bits will probably be done for you already).

Yeah and the human Fk/ Ik solver rigs that Dont exist in Daz studio at all will have to be re-created for the rig in Maya if you have plan on animating it if you are not why a plugin at all just import the obj file
and apply the textures

"2) you'll be able to do some stuff with that figure in Maya that you're normally able to do with it in D|S4 or D|S4A, which would require excess time to mimic within Maya itself. As to what, we do not know yet because it hasn't been built."

according to Daz you will have All of the functionality of genesis
operating within Maya (bone scaling to allow for radical morphing from one shape to the next etc auto fit of clothing meshes etc. you have seen the amazing videos)

Great if it works... but wait!!! Autodesk Maya can ALREADY DO THIS and much more in movies like Spider-Man, Star Wars, Episode II: Attack of the Clones and The Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers, TheLord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring, Gladiator, The Matrix and What Dreams May Come, The Matrix Reloaded, The Hulk and Terminator 3: Rise of the Machines.Monsters Vs. Aliens, Madagascar 2, Kung Fu Panda, Shrek 3, Bee Movie, Over The Hedge, Madagascar, Shark Tale, Shrek 2, Shrek, Antz and all of the Dreamworks Animation Movies. and so on.
so tell me in your opinion why does anyone using Maya need the genesis clone and its "features"
being emulated inside Maya.?
and I suggest to you like I suggested to Dan Farr
 if you dare  take your best Daz genesis promo links over to CGS
and start a thread in the Autodesk Maya forum
ask them "if you could get this figure into Maya with its full daz studio functions
would you buy a plugin and use it in your Mel scripted file referenced pipeline"

Do this and post a link here to the CGS thread so we can see what Maya users think about  "genesis" in Maya

Cheers

"Spider-Man, Star Wars, Episode II: Attack of the Clones and The Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers, TheLord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring, Gladiator, The Matrix and What Dreams May Come, The Matrix Reloaded, The Hulk and Terminator 3: Rise of the Machines.Monsters Vs. Aliens, Madagascar 2, Kung Fu Panda, Shrek 3, Bee Movie, Over The Hedge, Madagascar, Shark Tale, Shrek 2, Shrek, Antz and all of the Dreamworks Animation Movies. and so on.."

None of the above mentioned films ever use 3D to depict faces of real human beings correct me if I am wrong and direct me to a trailer.

vintorix is right, you know. I would only add that spewing out a random laundry list of movies isn't much in the way of evidence to support either side of the argument.

But hey, let's grind through the rest...

Quote - Yeah and the human Fk/ Ik solver rigs that Dont exist in Daz studio at all

...and don't also exist in the plugin/bridge? You certainly know a lot about something that doesn't exist yet. 

Quote - according to Daz you will have All of the functionality of genesis

Which means what, exactly? They didn't say, did they? 

Quote -  if you dare  take your best Daz genesis promo links over to CGS ...

All that bluster of taking it to CGSociety is moot, for two reasons:

1. Nobody there is going to admit using Poser or D|S professionally at any point in the pipeline. You may as well ask them if they masturbate (...and the answers will be exactly the same: everyone does it at least a little but most won't admit to it, and at least half will deny it with hot and fervent anger).

2. There is one and only one true factor of a commercial software item's success or failure: $$$. If it makes money, it will still be around. If it does not, then you would be right, and it wouldn't even have been considered (I'm using the D|S FBX plugin as a metric). DAZ software is not immune to this bit o' business law, because I can tell you from first-hand experience that codemonkeys don't come cheap, and good ones will cost you even more. You don't waste that kind of per-hour rate on things that don't make money.

Pay real close attention to #2, because that's the whole crux of the matter, innit? 

(just to be on the safe side I'll tick the language tag, in case anyone gets offended by the "m" word, mm'kay?)

Quote - so tell me in your opinion why does anyone using Maya need the genesis clone and its "features"
being emulated inside Maya.?
and I suggest to you like I suggested to Dan Farr
if you dare take your best Daz genesis promo links over to CGS
and start a thread in the Autodesk Maya forum
ask them "if you could get this figure into Maya with its full daz studio functions
would you buy a plugin and use it in your Mel scripted file referenced pipeline"

Do this and post a link here to the CGS thread so we can see what Maya users think about "genesis" in Maya

but ... but ... but what about that long anticipated blockbuster "GENESIS - The Morphing Movie"?
Don't tell me it's a hoax! :biggrin:

For the record, yes I fucking well am an artist.  I paint in gouache, oils, acrylics, draw in pastels, pencils, wax damn crayons, chalk, magic markers, india ink and brush, sharpies and anything I can get me hand on, I take photos with a "real" 35mm SLR and a digital SLR, I make stuff from modelling clay, wood, plastic, and almost anything that doesn't move.

And I also use Poser. 

Quote - Not directed at the OP.  Just a comment on the dismal regularity this saw is bandied about.  

For the record, yes I fucking well am an artist.  I paint in gouache, oils, acrylics, draw in pastels, pencils, wax damn crayons, chalk, magic markers, india ink and brush, sharpies and anything I can get me hand on, I take photos with a "real" 35mm SLR and a digital SLR, I make stuff from modelling clay, wood, plastic, and almost anything that doesn't move.

And I also use Poser. 

Wow! Are we twins? I do SLR, but I really do not care for digitals, I like the lab a lot... sadly becomming a thing in your basement/bathroom or not at all... Maybe you might share pointers on my D-SLR Nikon D50.

I also weave wool and feathers and beads into wall art. Really fun since I get free macaw and peacock feathers! I have a treasure chest of bits and parts you would love!

HugZ!
Ariana

The line between the Devil's Teeth, and that which cannot be repeat...

(dunno, it just popped up on the song currently playing. Thought it appropriate for some odd reason...)

..and don't also exist in the plugin/bridge? You certainly know a lot about something that doesn't exist yet.

You do realize the Autodesks human Ik solver is a proprietery feature of Maya heavily  Based on mayas  internal Scripting Language Mel script you can not  just "put it in your plugin :-)
. No offense Peng but you dont seem to have much experience with Character  animation or  rig terminology outside of poser/daz
Google Maya human IK  please

Quote - "according to Daz you will have All of the functionality of genesis"

Which means what, exactly? They didn't say, did they?
it means everything you have seen in the genesis videos happening in DS4 you will get that functionality  in the host application that is the DAZ claim  you quoted part of it yourself
even if it functions flawlessly  my point is why bother??
Maya's native rigs can do all of this already and more

1) Nobody there is going to admit using Poser or D|S professionally at any point in the pipeline. You may as well ask them if they masturbate (...and the answers will be exactly the same: everyone does it at least a little but most won't admit to it, and at least half will deny it with hot and fervent anger).

Ahhh yes the tired old  "they hate us too much to admit they are like us" cliche'd Mythology regurgitated once again. 
Go and actually READ the CGS thread Started by this threads OP and then search the Cinema4D forum over there for the term  "interposer pro"
BTW I use interposer pro in my Client work it does EXACTLY for poser to C4D what Daz is claiming to do for DS4-maya
but there are technical reason Why it can not be used in a larger scale production pipline.
 

2) There is one and only one true factor of a commercial software item's success or failure: $$$. I....You don't waste that kind of per-hour rate on things that don't make money.

happens out side the myopic fantasy world of the poser/daz forums all the time ( canoma ,Corel artisan, truespace etc. etc.)

Cheers

Ooops! Rain gotta go...shoot there goes the render too... :(
Ariana

*Just a comment on the dismal regularity this saw is bandied about.  *

Well said Sam.

I've noticed another regularity as well. The pious and the poser hating 'pros' never seem to do anything for our fine, and rather enjoyable, hobby and profession.

They don't give us great artworks than us to show us how better they are. Or have any products or freebies to showcase their skills. Look for a "professional" resume and most of the time theres nothing, not even teaboy on an episode of a soap opera popular amongst 3 cavemen in outer mongolia.

Instead all do they come here and tell how great they (and their super-duper applications) are. It's the poser users and hobbyists who show the most creativity and develop the really cool stuff or fun things with the tools we have to hand.

So maybe next time someone says they've got more skills or their app's bigger and swings more than your app, whap it on the table. Prove to us poor poserites what you can really do.

Quote - ...None of the above mentioned films ever use 3D to depict faces of real human beings correct me if I am wrong and direct me to a trailer.

One that comes to mind is Brandon Routh in Superman Returns. The sequence with him holding up the space shuttle in particular but also the floating-in-space 'listening' shots were medium close up.

(Incidently I think all the CGI for that movie was rendered with 3Delight.)

The topic of sites such as CGSociety trashing Poser, its users and the Poser end product commonly known as "art" in some shape or form has come up more often than a dog's breakfast ever since the first version of Poser was introduced.  If one uses Poser, expect to be subject to endless ridicule from sites like the aforementioned and other similar purist sites.  The lack of respect likely comes from being able to buy everything from the character, clothing, poses, sets and everything else and with a few clicks of a mouse have the software generate an image and call yourself an artist.  With that in mind, what is "the artist's" contribution, having bought everything to make the image? Not much from what I have seen and yet people wonder why Poser and Poser users keep getting a bad rap from "professionals".   It's fairly simple to get decent results with Poser if you know what you're doing.  Sure, it takes time...but what doesn't ?        

I don't see it as cheating to use a tool such as Poser.  I used to draw a long time ago and found it was easier to generate images and bring characters to life with Poser.  If I noticed something wasn't right, it was easier to correct on the screen than it was on paper. :)

Well, people like Kamilche and Fugazi and PhilC and so many others have tried to raise the bar of consciousness about creating stuff for years... and have done an admirable job. I recently purchased Fugazi's Digital Tailor tutorial. I was surprised to learn quite a few things (although I've been modelling for a while). It's not as hard as people make it out to be. And some of the tools are incredibly cheap: as in... free. Blender, Wings3d, etc... and there's heaps of help out there to get ya started, both free and for a very reasonable price.

In my circle of friends/acquaintances, I see a distinct trend from buying to making, with few exceptions. It's just one of those things that emerge from using a rich programme like Poser where so much stuff has been made by people not employed by SM.

Cobblers: unite! :biggrin:

Quote - even if it functions flawlessly  my point is why bother??
Maya's native rigs can do all of this already and more

I'm sure they can... but how much effort does it take? 

Quote -

1) Nobody there is going to admit using Poser or D|S professionally at any point in the pipeline. You may as well ask them if they masturbate (...and the answers will be exactly the same: everyone does it at least a little but most won't admit to it, and at least half will deny it with hot and fervent anger). 

Ahhh yes the tired old  "they hate us too much to admit they are like us" cliche'd Mythology regurgitated once again.   

Nope - not that at all. Most Poser users here wouldn't have the higher-end bits, let alone know what to do with it; so the similarities are short-lived at best. The main motivation is also left buried, but if you want my pet theory, some of it has more to do with professional pride than with any kind of hate. OTOH, there are likely as many motivations as there are people, and combined with groupthink, it tends to solidify into an amorphous, undefinable mass of reasons.

Quote -  
BTW I use interposer pro in my Client work it does EXACTLY for poser to C4D what Daz is claiming to do for DS4-maya

I hate to sound like a broken record, but again, you keep failing to answer the point here... how is it that you are so sure about something that hasn't be technically described and isn't even in beta yet? For all we know it may do entirely different things, and/or behave entirely differently.
 

***Quote - 2) There is one and only one true factor of a commercial software item's success or failure: $$$. I....You don't waste that kind of per-hour rate on things that don't make money.***happens out side the myopic fantasy world of the poser/daz forums all the time ( canoma ,Corel artisan, truespace etc. etc.)

If we were talking about a freshly-launched product in a new market (for the company) with no predecessor, you'd have a point. OTOH, this is a product with at least one semi-progenitor (the FBX plugin). QED: DAZ has already sold products that do plugins from D|S -> Maya, and if that had flopped, they'd have not even bothered this go 'round. 

Quote - "Spider-Man, Star Wars, Episode II: Attack of the Clones and The Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers, TheLord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring, Gladiator, The Matrix and What Dreams May Come, The Matrix Reloaded, The Hulk and Terminator 3: Rise of the Machines.Monsters Vs. Aliens, Madagascar 2, Kung Fu Panda, Shrek 3, Bee Movie, Over The Hedge, Madagascar, Shark Tale, Shrek 2, Shrek, Antz and all of the Dreamworks Animation Movies. and so on.."

None of the above mentioned films ever use 3D to depict faces of real human beings correct me if I am wrong and direct me to a trailer.

actualy the majority of those (live action)movies use face or full body replacement

matrix:

http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=1198599

superman:

http://www.awn.com/articles/production/isuperman-returnsi-passion-vfx-part-1/page/2,1

Lord of the rings:

http://www.awn.com/articles/technology/convergence-digital-acting-and-vfx/page/2,1

T3:

http://www.cgsociety.org/index.php/CGSFeatures/CGSFeatureSpecial/terminator_salvation

What I'm seeing in this thread is people still clutching to the belief that cgs doesn't like poser users..I'll admit they're getting a little tired of the argument and the latest thread clearly shows that,really all they want to see is good quality images ,they want you to quit whinging about being the underdog and make some bloody art.no one cares what app your using.

good images at CGS that use Poser models do get the attention they deserve,& bad art will always get what it deserves,if you want praise just for making the image then post in the r'osity galleries,if your posting at cgs then be prepared for some critique.

as an aside, I did some concept art recently for a new Wachowski bros(the matrix guys) film and used Daz models in several images,nobody asked what I was using for the models,nobody cared what I was using..the final images are all the mattered and thats all they commented on.I regulary use daz models in my national geographic illustrations and also used m4 & the daz kids in an image only last week for new yorks natural history museum..once again no one asked or cared what I was using for the figure models.

hope you guys can stop looking at cgs as being filled with mean spirited Poser haters..that certainly isn't what I'm seeing there.

ehliasys

Quote -
I wouldn't count that as a Poser image, because Poser's not the main tool here, it's just used as a reference like a photo or manikin, and the real - artistic, if you will - work is done in 2D. In fact - wasn't that was Poser was intended in the first place? :)

I agree,I should add I think the image is horrible,(his later stuff is very cool though)..it's actualy a good example of where the Poser model has failed and real human ref would have worked much better,in using a pose like that he's recreating all the mistakes of the 3d mesh.you really need a good knowledge of anatomy to paint over a posed figure like that

Cheers

Stefan

"good images at CGS that use Poser models do get the attention they deserve,& bad art will always get what it deserves,if you want praise just for making the image then post in the r'osity galleries,if your posting at cgs then be prepared for some critique"

Exactly, they get punished for their 'art', the program has nothing to do with it.

But the links you gave me are not convincing. If the the CG world want to depicts real humans, smiling at a joke, showing envy, compassion, and all that they must get a lot better. Seeing how Maya & all the other high-end programs utterly failed in this department maybe Daz genesis figure has something to contribute?

You never know.

Quote - "good images at CGS that use Poser models do get the attention they deserve,& bad art will always get what it deserves,if you want praise just for making the image then post in the r'osity galleries,if your posting at cgs then be prepared for some critique"

Exactly, they get punished for their 'art', the program has nothing to do with it.

exactly,and thats how it should be..its about the art right?..a bad piece is a bad piece and like I said the majority of cgs is not talking about a bad program,only bad art.If critique is being viewed as punishment then your probably better off not posting to such a public space.

as for the links..not sure what else I can say,you said none of those movies had digital doubles and the links show they clearly do...maybe Benjamin button would do it for you?... human replacement in films is very common now and if its done well you won't know that what your watching isnt 'real'.

"human replacement in films is very common now and if its done well you won't know that what your watching isnt 'real'"

Actual trailers with moving pictures. No masks, animals or robots but real faces closeup showing emotion. I believe it when I see it.

I am still waiting.

P.S: I have seen Final Fantasy I'm sorry to say.

Final fantasy - the spirits within  is worth a look if you want to see some nice cg animated stuff.

Quote - "human replacement in films is very common now and if its done well you won't know that what your watching isnt 'real'"

Actual trailers with moving pictures. No masks, animals or robots but real faces closeup showing emotion. I believe it when I see it.

I am still waiting.

P.S: I have seen Final Fantasy I'm sorry to say.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Dq8ytPVj98

Quote - "human replacement in films is very common now and if its done well you won't know that what your watching isnt 'real'"

Actual trailers with moving pictures. No masks, animals or robots but real faces closeup showing emotion. I believe it when I see it.

I am still waiting.

P.S: I have seen Final Fantasy I'm sorry to say.

Yeah well that movie was made 10 years ago too. (2001)

re: Benjamin Button

Performance capture, or motion capture is a very old technique using real actors voice and real actors movement and emotions that has got a kind of revival. What has that to to with modeling characters and Maya?

?

re: Benjamin Button

Performance capture, or motion capture is a very old technique using real actors voice and real actors movement and emotions that has got a kind of revival. What have that to to with modeling characters and MayaAn actor drives the CG puppet.

The CG puppet and motion capture compatibility is where Maya and modeling may come in (if Maya was actually used.) Are you of the opinion that using this technique is “cheating?”

"Are you of the opinion that using this technique is “cheating?”

I don't care is it is cheating or not. All that is important is the result. The whole motion picture business is kind of cheating as is art in general. But this technique doesn't produce good results.

If you are going to use real actors voice, movement and emotions you are better off using the very same actors in the normal way to get a better result. The first  Lord of the Rings movie was produced this way and was a failure. Peter Jacson's version with real actors on the other hand was one of the most successful films in history.

Performance capture loose out more than 90% of what that is possible with CG. Art is about distilling -lifting out what that is important so people get the message and not get lost in insignifant details.

For Stephan,

"What I'm seeing in this thread is people still clutching to the belief that cgs doesn't like poser users..I'll admit they're getting a little tired of the argument and the latest thread clearly shows that,really all they want to see is good quality images ,they want you to quit whinging about being the underdog and make some bloody art.no one cares what app your using."

I will say this, I posted a link to an image and I was surprised by the change in tone to the OP, as well as a couple of private responses of encouragement too! DSW was a very nice person who also was positive as well as plastic, who saw my photography experience in my renders. So you are 100% correct. I did post an apology for my bad manners, and now am receiving more responses of a better vein.

That does not change the views of some, but it did smooth over, and I hope I did us poser users some small credit by my link.

Thank you for helping Stephan.
HugZ!
Ariana

Of course Peter Jackson's version of Lord of the Rings included perhaps the most successful CG motion capture character ever, ie: Gollum. I think motion capture is much more effective than makeup and costume, particularly when a character diverges from human parameters or when a face needs to move without the burden of heavy makeup for old age or whatnot. Even the orcs in Jackson's Lord of the Rings had CG enhanced faces.

Performance capture loose out more than 90% of what that is possible with CG. Art is about distilling -lifting out what that is important so people get the message and not get lost in insignifant details.

You'd think that by removing that 90% of the insignificant possibilities you would be left with what is important. In any case, people do go over the product of motion capture to add, subtract and tweak movements. I don't see any inherent superiority in the point-and-click key-framing of puppets powered by animators instead of actors, unless the character simply isn't human enough for motion capture to be practical.

By the way, do you know of any technique that doesn't use the real actor's voice?

Quote - re: Benjamin Button

Performance capture, or motion capture is a very old technique using real actors voice and real actors movement and emotions that has got a kind of revival. What has that to to with modeling characters and Maya?

?

 

I wanted to ask if you see that some movies you mentioned are kinda of "jerky" looking to your eyes? I have noticed it almost appears that some are artificially speeded up! And that makes the actor look odd, do you know if some of these movies are using CG? Just curious.

Ariana

Re:Gollum

Alien creatures and various monsters will always be looking great in CG, no matter what technique. That can not be used as an argument. Performance capture is useless, except for a few special cases.

same with poser it's a tool, but it takes your imagination to create the art.

Quote - re: Benjamin Button

Performance capture, or motion capture is a very old technique using real actors voice and real actors movement and emotions that has got a kind of revival. What has that to to with modeling characters and Maya?

?

 

lol..whatever,I've got no idea what your after.

to the op...good to see you were open to them and well received.

thanks

Stefan

What I'm after? I recent being looked down upon of course like everyone else. I am a Cinema 4D user myself but would not dream to overlook Poser or Vue or Marvellous Designer or Sketchup or anyone else of the small programs that develops in a much faster pace. They do nothing that cannot be done in C4D but in C4D it is so much SLOWER AND CUMBERSOME. Not long ago no one at Pixar or Disney would dream about using anything else than super multi million dollar software and hardware from Silicon Graphics specially developed for the film business - they looked superciliously down at programs like 3DS max and Maya. Is Silicon Graphics still in business? :) You should never underestimate the sheer number of users it is a powerful force.

The masters are those who know how to paint. We 3D modelers are not worthy of tying the shoes of a real artist.

OTOH, this is a product with at least one semi-progenitor (the FBX plugin). QED: DAZ has already sold products that do plugins from D|S -> Maya, and if that had flopped, they'd have not even bothered this go 'round.

First from your statements about DAZ somehow putting Autodesk Maya's IK skeletal system in an plugin it is clear now you have Zero Experience with any program beyond DAZ studio and poser
That is not unexpected Considering the prohibitive cost of such apps.
but with this statement quoted above you dont seem to have even looked at Daz's DISMAL record of Exporting rigs to Maya and other pro apps
I have tried their  rig export options to Both C4DR11 lightwave 9.6 You seem to think they were somehow a rousing success
but  myself &the paying Customers
(including maya users) in THIS THREAD say otherwise.
Apparently they have not even mastered getting a fully Functional Rig from DS to Carrara
A program they actually own
Go now... read all about their "semi-progenitor "

Cheers

@Vintorix
How can you write this:
 "I am a Cinema 4D user myself but would not dream to overlook Poser or Vue or Marvellous Designer or Sketchup or anyone else"

and not see the IRONY in writing this
"3D modelers are not worthy of tying the shoes of a real artist."

????