Yes, I know you can't tell me. But maybe you can give me some pointers...

I already have Vue (5I), Poser (6) and Hexagon (not sure which version).

I'm about to splurge out on some new hardware and software.

So, what I require from you is: Should I buy Maya (expensive)? Modo (1/3 price of Maya)? Any-other-3D-program-you-know-about (that I don't)?

Some facts about me and my work methods:

• I'm purely amateur.

• I only have ONE chance at this, due to a sudden cash inflow that is unlikely to be repeated. (I don't turn 65 every year...)

• I'm perfectly happy to export .objs (or any other common format) from one program then import them into another.

• I rather like Vue's render machine, but am happy enough to use another one if it provides better (or significantly faster) images.

I rather guess my main emphasis here is what differences are there between Maya and Modo? What does one have that the other doesn't? (or vice-versa.. j/k). And which is the easier to use? (I *KNOW * there'll be a huge learning graph in either program...)

What I want to find out is: Is Maya still worth 3 times the price of other 3D programs (inc Modo)?

Many thanks in advance,

Diolma

You shouldn't need to buy any new software.  Hexagon while still a little buggy, especially on Macs, is a very capable modelling program.  If you are experiencing buggy behavior from Hex you still don't need to purchase a modeller.  Blender 3D and Wings 3D are both free.  Spend that money on getting the best hardware you can now.

with packages like 3dsmax and maya you get a lot more than a modeller.  Since you can render in Poser or Vue you may not want to pose and render in your modelling pprogram.

Look at Blender, silo, shade and try Hexagon again and see if you like any of the interfaces. 

I would stick your money in a term deposit and decide later on buying a modelling program.  You can download a trial of almost everything.

Same here, don't buy any Software. Blender is a very good free modelling Software. A lot of Tutorials are given by the community also.

As an amateur, theres no point spending money on max or maya. If you are going to render with vue then all you need is a modeler. Suggestions above - most importantly get software you feel comfortable with.

I don't actually know your situation, except from what you've said: you're an amateur. I.e, hobbyist. And you wish to get into modelling.

Antonia:

...was modelled in Wings3D. Wings3D! A free programme.

A popular vendor made a good point recently, to the order of: get a high-end app if you're going to be doing a lot of work in that field and you need the app for the shortcuts, for your workflow.
modo is excellent: V4 was modelled in modo (although she is not excellent: popular, but not excellent) so it's certainly a capable app. Wings3D? I've seen and use incredible stuff created in that app.

Blender? Well, I've a soft spot in my heart for Blender, but even just mentioning Blender brings up a key point with any app: Learning Curve.

Easiest to learn? Hands-down... Wings3D. Silo is close behind it. Then, there's this chasm. You wouldn't want to jump it. Blender. I love Blender but you really have to love it to use it. It's going through some incredible development. Joining the Big Boys soon with BMesh (support for ngons). Then, watch-out, modo! :biggrin:

Maya? Are you going Pro? Get Maya. Invest the time. But only if you're going Pro.

I think that as an amateur lik eyou said, you should look at Lightwave. Its a very fast learning curve, and have almost all that others have for about 1500 bucks. Cinema 4D is another option but I think its more expansive them Lightwave.

Maya is the top in the list, but its learning curve is very high, so if you are an amateur, I dont think you will like the way it works. But if you still think in Maya here is another option to you: Houdini, its a high end app like Maya with a learning curve a littel high too, but you can render HD resolution without watermark for just 99 bucks. Only thing is that all work done in it cant be used to sell or business, its only for personal use with this price.

At high prices we also have Autodesk Softimage, that is a very cool software too.

My real adivice is: save your money to Maya, BUT take a look into those other options. Download a dmeo from everyone and try for yourself without looking any tutorial, this way you will fell the software, some you will be easy to use. Look at respective communities, read the features list and decide what you want.

Houdini
http://www.sidefx.com/index.php

Softimage
http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/pc/index?siteID=123112&id=13571398

Cinema 4D
http://www.maxon.net/

Lightwave
http://www.newtek.com/lightwave.html

One more to you is Carrara also. Daz3D is working in some kind of integration between their software and maybe in the future I think that DazStudio, Bryce and Carrara will talk each other. With its low price you can still buy a lot of other plugins and content to use with it too:

http://www.daz3d.com/i/products/carrara? 

LOL and thanks all :-)

I certainly shall be downloading demos, just need to buy a new PC first. I'll probably also upgrade Poser, Vue and Hexagon as well - then buy Maya!! (After all, I'll be retired in April - need SOMETHING to do to while away all those empty hours...)

Cheers,

Diolma

PS: I need a new PC - the one I'm working on is over 5 years old, out of disk space and running Win 2K...

Hehehe its a good plan! Theres qa lot of Maya resource in internet, but if still can get some class for the basics, go for it. I am shure that with Maya you wont have empty hours... only when rendering.

for beginners i would definately go for a lower version if Cinema 4D, then spend the extrra to get VRay for your rendering needs. ;)

I agree with most here about the free software. 

If you want to do modeling you could look at sculpting and retopology.  I myself got 3d-coat (I couldn't afford zbrush) but it has some unique things to it as well.  I know blender has sculpting tools well.  You can download a demo of 3d-coat or go to the website and see some things it does.  I have the apps you listed plus Carrara Pro and am working on an applink from Carrara to 3dcoat. There is already goZ from those apps to Zbrush.

A lot depends on what you want to do.  You might look at some good tutorial courses too depending on what you want to render, like lightmaster or such.

How about checking out the video tutorial samples for some of the sofware. For example:

The GnomonWorkshop

GeeksAtPlay

Lynda.com

Digital Tutors

VTC

Dream-Lounge (DazStudio Only)

InfiniteSkills

They have sample video's for the basics of the apps.  You get a feel for the workspace and workflow.  Plus, if the tutorial is to your preference, you already have an edge to using the app.  Even though your retired, you can go back to school and takes some fun couses and qualify for student discounts on the software.

For envrionment software I tried Bryce then went to a couple of versions of Vue but went to Carrara and Poser.  For modelers I went from Shade to Maya to Rhino to Hexagon.  As a fellow hobbyist, I don't work in the industry so opted to user freindly.  For software, it boils down to personal preferrence with the GUI and the tools available in the app.

For hardware, the 'common' hardware available is better than it was years ago.  My old custom rigs (QuadCore, 12+ GB RAM, with dual graphics cards) are out dated compared to the new basic stuff.  The new 64-bit versions of the software are significantly faster than the older 32-bit versions.

Good point PJared, always look to the 64bits of life! They can handle large objects, textures and scenes.

I disagree.  This guidance for hobbystys to experiment with what you have and see what you need dowen the road can be as discouraging as leading some into a vast desert and say, pick a path to get home. There must be experienced artists here who know a workable pipeline without using an Autodesk product, but EVERY tut I see engages some autodesk app some point.  I have tried many of the apps suggested, and while they do accomplish the features they advertise all seem like 80 percent solutions to me and require integration with some other app to produce results. Its this point your left in the lurch trying to figure out whats needed, making the wrong choice and realizing youv headed down a dead end, or after retopoing, morphing, and rebuilding UV   your mesh for the umpteenth times your in a never ending circle.  What we need is a concise, referencable pipeline or complete specs on how to edit dae,obj and mtls by hand.  I would prefer to edit by text than visually modifying with more 3d tools at this point.

• Lost in Zbush

Quote - I disagree.  This guidance for hobbyists to experiment with what you have and see what you need down the road can be as discouraging as leading some into a vast desert and say, pick a path to get home. There must be experienced artists here who know a workable pipeline without using an Autodesk product, but EVERY tut I see engages some autodesk app some point.

Well, you clearly haven't been over to Blender-Cookie, then.

Quote -   I have tried many of the apps suggested, and while they do accomplish the features they advertise all seem like 80 percent solutions to me and require integration with some other app to produce results.

Depends on the results you're after. I get all the results I need from Blender, myself. others get what they need from Wings3D (for example, Antonia). It's not clear what results you're after.

Quote - It's this point you're left in the lurch trying to figure out whats needed, making the wrong choice and realizing you've headed down a dead end, or after retopoing, morphing, and rebuilding UV your mesh for the umpteenth times you're in a never ending circle.

Now, I'm really confused. You still haven't said what it is you're trying to create. What is this "result" you're after? Can you give an example?

Quote -   What we need is a concise, reference-able pipeline or complete specs on how to edit dae, obj and mtls by hand.

  Why?

Quote - I would prefer to edit by text than visually modifying with more 3d tools at this point.

Pretty sure you're not alone in this view.

3D was notorious for having really poor documentation, but things have improved a lot. The key is finding it. And yes: hard to find what you're after.

I tried to find a decent reference/answer to why the listindex property was giving me dramas in VBA - trying to set it in code would cause VB to spit the dummy... so I googled it, and found pages and pages of questions that were never answered. So, it's not limited to 3D stuff.

Lets look at real studio pipeline, thats is the result almost everyone want to get:

They use a particular software like Maya as base.

They have ZBrush for details and paint, or some inhouse app like Mari.

They have a lot of developers that work hard to get better results from shaders, particles and other things.

Static objects are rendered separeted from animated one, backgrounds are rendered separeted from characters. Special effects, dynamics, particles are all rendered separeted.

They use Inferno or something like that to compose the final render in one shot, they never do a render and its done, always need a postwork.

They use renderfarms to render a lot of data and every frame is breaked in pieces called Multi-pass.

Every studio have theyr own tools and preferences. Some use Maya, others Lightwave, but they never work with one simple package, they will use render engines like MentalRay, painter tools like ZBrush, Moodbox or Mari and a lot of other plugins or tolls developped by inhouse programmers.

Theres no ultimate tool. The advantage of a big studio is that they have a lot of people to work in lights, composite, shaders, R&D, rigging, morphs, painters that will make that scene believeble. So to get a good result we need to study a lot, we need to know what our software can do, how to do with all that tools and at same time understande how paint a texture, UVmap, shading and most important is the light, that make the scene real.

I disagree... ok I added that to get a response in fustration.  I just have been down this windy road a bit too long.  :)

RobinsVail: Very helpful comments.  In thread same forum "Desperate for Results" I explain some of my trials and issues.  I have /do use Blender quite a bit but early on when the docs were more sparse, I got involved with other approaches and use blender to convert of explore compapatability.  I probably am overlooking a valuable tool under my nose.  The "-Cookie" need to google that ... Oh wow. Cool. Nope never been to this Tutorial page. :)

Regarding the real studio pipeline and the base app. It always seems to comeback to autodesk. Just seems no way around it unless you can figure how to pull off miricales with Wings or Blender.  I thought ZBrush would be up to the task, it probably is but its certainly not as easy as slapping some polypaint and export... not for something that will be extensible in multiple rendering apps.

actualy currently for blender 2.58 there is an exporter that exports in poser format directly from blender and the foundation is working on a native exporter

for the last few months i have been working on a version of blender that will incorperate several key addons that have been made and some key scripts that open it up to new worlds......hoping that the foundation will adopt it

but in the fact that every software uses different rigging formats, texture types, material types, and even different mesh formats   work flow tends to stray between softwares   blender has eased the flow by improving the sculpting engine to the same level as sculptris and all but integrating audacity and lux render

the addition of cycles and a better rigging manner was welcomed by most but the new interface is still confusing to the long time blender users like me

still between photoshop and blender i can do everything i need to do to get a quality sellable end product

diolma  never spend money on something that does not fit you

look to www.cgcookie.com for a few tuts on several softwares and watch the tutorials before you even try any program

and robyn blendercookie is gone they integrated them all into 1 site

I have to agree with markschums reply. It's important that you research the apps out there before you buy - definately try out demos first, especially for those apps that cost money! It also depends what you want to do. Do you really need an app like Maya when Blender is free but is also used for professional modelling and animation?

I'm still  a  newbie as far as modelling goes  I've tried Blender and it's a great program but there is a steep learning curve if you don't mind that. But also there are some great tutorials on the web - the best by far that I've found for a total newcomer can be found here . My personal favourite program (and I've tried Hexagon and C4D)) is Silo by Nevercenter. I love it. It has all  the tools of the other apps that you would need,  but the interface is way easier to learn! And for me this was  a great selling point. Plus there are some great beginner tutorials on Silos site and the program doesn't cost the earth (less than $200 and it's on sale right now), but it is a quality program.

Whatever you do, I hope you find the one that suits you best. Good luck in your search:)

I have and currently do work "in the industry" and I've used just about every program out there at one point or another. That's why, back when I was the moderator of this forum, I wrote that little blurb at the top of this page that states no one can tell you what's right for you. My experience using Houdini or XSI or Maya, C4D, Hexagon or even Silo (etc.) isn't going to be the same as yours. Some of those apps I thought were awesome and some I felt I couldn't use at all, despite having access to the developers.

The reason - interface and workflow.  This is a really PERSONAL issue.

I learned organic modeling in Rhino and Max 2.5 around the same time. Before that I was doing spaceships in 3DStudio ( not 3DStudio Max but the original DOS version of that). I found I hated Max's clunky interface - it had only changed marginally from the 3DStudio days to be honest (at that point anyway). So I stuck with Rhino but even I could tell for what I wanted to make - creatures - NURBS really wasn't the best method. So with that in mind, did I try to force myself to use a program whose interface I found to go against my mentality? Hell no. Why Should I? Why Should you? That's why I branched out and tried a whole bunch of apps. Interface wise, this was MY PERSONAL experience: Blender - what a mess (well, at the time it was, it was fairly new back then), C4D - kind of a mash up that I didn't care for, Maya (barely worth it for the single user - awesome for a team with a programmer), ZBrush (a 2.5D paint app that would never take off - yes, I actually said that when asked to beta the app),  Nendo - cool but I still felt separated from my model, XSI (the interface was so different from what I was used to that I didn't mind it so much), LightWave (I had been dying to try it from the Video Toaster days so I was bias toward it but I wouldn't use it much), and so and so forth.

 Now, depending on where you work, you don't always get a say what you use - sometimes you just have to suck it up and use an interface that makes you want to blow your brains out with a bb gun.  I lucked into a job that didn't care where I made my models as long as the topology was good. I started using Wings 3D at that point. It felt a lot like Nendo in some ways and that made me seek out another modeler. Eventually I landed on Silo (mostly because CLAY didn't seem to be coming out and I couldn't get in on the beta).  I fell in love with it. It was just the right blend of interface and direct influence over my model that I was looking for. None of that double or tripple confirmation crap of every action I had to deal with in the original Hexagon and it was being actively developed.  It no longer is being actively developed and I have modo in my arsenal now but always go to Silo first regardless. 

Luckily for me, I landed a job as a modeler and got exposed to even a broad range of applications/workflows and understanding.  However, that's what happened to ME that's the road that has led me to use : Silo, modo, UVMapper Pro, UVLayout, ZBrush, Topogun, and Photoshop on a daily basis. Why all those apps? Silo and modo have UV tools, and they're great but they require more steps than UVLayout. UVLayout is awesome for pelt mapping and packing your UV's but lacks some of the basic UV functions found in UVMapper. ZBrush and Photoshop can both be used to paint a model but I prefer painting in ZBrush (not to mention ZBrush also has UV creation now  but it's not as good as UVLayout). Silo and Modo both offer the option to retopo a mesh but I use Topogun because that's it main focus and the toolsets it has to that end make it a fast experience.   Now my job wants us to use Max to make sharing files between us artists easier. So I'll have to get used to Max again and find a place for it in my list of apps.

The point is, you use what you feel gets the job done quickly and painlessly. If that means it's more than one app, than SO BE IT.  In film studios, they often don't even bother with off the shelf apps unless they have a specific need for them, usually they have built apps in-house to cover essential tasks or they have recoded the architecture of existing apps like Maya and Max to a point where they are no longer recognizable  and still, they use other applications for specific tasks.  Almost every major modeling application can do landscapes and instancing these days but has that stopped companies from using VUE? No, because that program was designed specifically for it and does the job better/faster. That's what is important in a production environment.

Trying to have someone tell you to get X application because you will love it is like playing russian roulette. Yes, there's a chance you will but there's a great chance that you've just shot yourself in the head by listening to them. TRY BEFORE YOU BUY. Who knows, you may love Blender most and save your money for training videos.

As for avoiding Autodesk, as though that should be some sought after goal, Autodesk owns 3 of the major off the shelf apps in the industry. If you're not a fan of Autodesk, feel free to give Cinema 4D a try or Houdini or Lightwave or Blender, hell, you want a real adventure? Go try Animation Master. Unless Autodesk as an entity has offended you on a personal level in some way, it shouldn't matter if they make the app as long as the app can do what you need it to do.  

That's my two-bits as someone who started this thing as a hobby and now do it for a living.

Thanks Teyon