DAZ has this new incredible model that does more than any of their previous models ever did... but they made it application specific. In order to use this model you can ONLY use it to its fullest capabilitity in one single application.

They screwed themselves with getting a full customer base. They now have to target newbies non-stop.

Poser also screwed up.

They listened to the goofs in this forum who want 3DS Max rendering but can't afford 3DS Max. And so they guaranteed tiny sales of a product that was NOT geared towards newbies which is what Poser is all about.

A super complicated app that no newbie can figure out like Poser 4 without getting all kinds of grief from the same goofs in this forum who wanted 3DS Max but got Poser 9.

And as someone heavily invested in this whole thing I sat by and watched this all come about.

FUCK!

That's all I can say. This really sucks. It really sucks.

We have painted ourselves into a corner.

Why you think Poser is complicated?  

SM evolute Poser. If you want the conform of Poser 4 than use Poser 4 and don't cry.

If everybody would think like you, we would not sit in front of a PC, we would sit in front of a cave.

Poser isn't complicated. 3DSMax is complicated. Poser is easy-peasy. And this hypothesis that SM catered to the whims of a clientelle who actually wanted 3DSMax, except simpler is... interesting. Do you have any proof to substantiate this, or is this just something derived?

SM doesn't cater to whims, nor does it follow temporary technologies, thank goodness. I for one am really grateful that at least Poser remains a known entity, albeit a more sophisticated one than earlier versions.

BTW, I started 3D (after Blender) with DS .9x. On the strength of that experience, I bought DS3 Adv, thinking it was as stable as DS .9x. :blink: Not a known entity, anymore.

A newbie can buy a product from the Renderosity store for Anastasia and use it right out of the box?

is Poser now catering to the 50 people who post frequently in this forum or thousands of folks who have no clue what Poser is... like when YOU started?

Coleman might have a point.
See
http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?thread_id=2848886

I see no newbies in that thread, Vilters

Correct.

The point being that "newbies", do not have a clue what might be happening.

Hey, not everybody has Internet.
Not evenybody come to the forums.

To dig inside a cr2, you have to know what you are doing, and have the extra apps and knowledge to do so.

Some things in Poser might be simpler; Could be more user friendly.
And DS could use a manual.

I thought that was what your post was all about?

Maybe I'm wrong... the sales of Poser 9 and Pro 2012 are a resounding success?

My bad Vilters - I misunderstood

I would be willin' to say that there IS a Poser 9/ 2012 shows that Poser is a resounding success. Why would they update/ expand on sumpin' nobody wanted?

They're fixing the small problems like with every version release.

I just have a feeling, a lot of Poser 8 and Pro 2012 folks are not upgrading... and it's because Poser 9/2012 offer nothing new except more advanced features that MOST Posers don't really use.

instead of catering to the folks who wanted 3DS Max features... they should have focused on features that made Poser easier to use for the basic user and total newb... a large customer base.

weight maps... I hear nothing about this now.

Why are morph fixes for regular V4 being sold like hotcakes in the marketplace?

because a ton of folks remain using Poser 8/2010 and THEY are buying products in mass

You seem to be under the assumption that the "advanced features that MOST Posers don't really use" are the only options available. Do yr homework. Try actually looking at the product before bashing it.

I apologize for starting this...

i went to the DAZ store and saw all those gorgeous clothing sets they're offering for Genesis and how I would love to buy them and chip i to keep this entire market thriving but I'd have to make all my 1000 comic charactrs DAZ ready and that'd be a nightmare.

Then I look at Poser and they are just as lost as to what the long term customer base is wanting to buy. The SSS skin looks like blow-up doll skin and how long do you have to wait for that fake effect that Lux Renderer can do 20 times better? That's the only seeling point with weightmapping whcih is useless in itself unless someone like nerd had the gumtion to make a weightmapped V4... WTF?!

Neither DAZ nor Poser seem like they want my money. Maybe my argument is in the wrong - but damn it is fucking frustrating - truly!

Sorry noxiart - crossposted.

Good post!

Bah. On second thought. Not worth starting an argument.

I have Poser and got Studio 4 PRO for free, so at least once I can have my cake and eat it, too.  :-)

I'll concede - Poser9/2012 rocks

We know it's junk, but we like it anyway.

Coleman, over Renderosity and RDNA exist a lot of tutorials for Poser beginner.

Or if you step into problems, just ask.

Many are willing to share their knowlegde with you. :)

Poser Pro is very good application. And it get better :D

So what exactly are your problems? 

Genesis work only in DS properly, but there are a lot of other great stuff out which work in DS and Poser.

Victoria 4, Michael4, Appollo  free, Antonia, free.

I'm having a really hard time sorting out exactly what you're driving at, Coleman.

What I am picking up is a resentment focused on SM that they don't espouse Daz technology. Given Daz's track record in terms of maturing their technology - let's just look at Shader Mixer and that whole shader system and documentation, as an example - I'd be inclined to keep my distance from Daz if I were Smith Micro and was looking at areas to 'grow' my app, as it were. I'd be staying with established technology... and there's a lot to do there, truly.

I do trust that Smith Micro are going to take a solid technological path. The technologies they will adopt and build on will be here to stay the course.

In the interim: Daz figures work brilliantly great in DS4. Use DS4 for that purpose. Poser has its own figures using completely different technology. Use those figures with that technology in mind.

It is pointless and demoralising to pine after a figure that doesn't match your chosen technology. This is a hobby, folks. :blink:

Yet another pointless thread about Genesis into Poser.

Those that want to use Genesis fully, use DS4Pro etc.

Waits for another thread to appear with the same thought process in a short time, followed by another one and then another etc.

All the best.

LROG

Well, you're probably better off using each program to it's strengths as Robin suggested. Now that Daz has new management that seem to want to focus on content again, rather than software we may not see another version of DS for a LONG time. Carrara is up in the air if you've been reading anything Paolo (Preta3D - maker of Reality) has said. Hexagon is most likely dead in the water. It's hard to know at this time who is going to survive and who isn't. I put my wager on Poser. Their creators do tend to listen to their users. As for the 3DS Max thing? I don't really recall anyone screaming for 3DS Max compatibility (which Poser's had for awhile). I HAVE heard ppl asking for better rendering, better skin and better bending - which SM has really tried to address.

Laurie

Quote - DAZ has this new incredible model that does more than any of their previous models ever did.

Wrong forum should be in the Daz Studio forum - read the sticky at the top of the Poser Forum regarding Daz/Genesis.

I don't think Poser is too complicated. Sure Poser 4 is much easier, but Poser 8 & 9 are still manageable even for new users. Sure there are features they will not understand, but neither do I as a long time user without learning about them. The basics are still very basic and easy to use. Personally I'm not happy with the way the new features have been implemented, but that's a choice they made. In time to come they will regret implementing flash & air, since that will be obsolete now that html5 is gaining ground and the mobile market will not get further support from adobe.

What worries me more is the lack of new users coming in. How many new users do we see coming in? Hardly any. Fact is that the poser community is slowly dying. A lot of users have left (probably switched is the word since I still see them around at the other place).

I think for ever Poser user you see on the forums there are 20 that never join ;). And I don't think that's a ridiculous number. It may even be more.

Laurie

It's really simple.....look at the visible numbers.  Right under the Renderosity logo

Saturday, May 5, 2012 8:43 AM

4789 artists currently online

Now go do the same at the DAZ site.

Same setup - signed in users at both places.  Huge difference in numbers.

If anyone needs to worry, it's not Rendo or Poser users.

Whether they are active in the forum is moot.......there's a whole lot more folks HERE than there.

Quote - I think for ever Poser user you see on the forums there are 20 that never join ;). And I don't think that's a ridiculous number. It may even be more.

Laurie

Pure speculation.

I checked my customers list just for fun. Same names there for years now, a few new ones, but the majority are still these same names. I would say if there are many new poser users, I would see many new names on my customers list, but that is pure speculation as well.

The only thing I know from my customers is that when I started my store they majority of them used Poser and only a few used DS, now that's the other way around. The people who used to be Poser users are now requesting me to keep on releasing my items for Ds as well (knowing that I'm not a DS user at all).

Quote - Pure speculation.

I checked my customers list just for fun. Same names there for years now, a few new ones, but the majority are still these same names. I would say if there are many new poser users, I would see many new names on my customers list, but that is pure speculation as well.

The only thing I know from my customers is that when I started my store they majority of them used Poser and only a few used DS, now that's the other way around. The people who used to be Poser users are now requesting me to keep on releasing my items for Ds as well (knowing that I'm not a DS user at all).

 

And yet, I see new faces around the forums both here and at RDNA all the time.

Quote - It's really simple.....look at the visible numbers.  Right under the Renderosity logo

Saturday, May 5, 2012 8:43 AM

4789 artists currently online

Now go do the same at the DAZ site.

Same setup - signed in users at both places.  Huge difference in numbers.

If anyone needs to worry, it's not Rendo or Poser users.

Whether they are active in the forum is moot.......there's a whole lot more folks HERE than there.

Keep in mind that Rendo is much more then Poser, we're only a part of this community. Number of users at other places are much lower.

Quote - > Quote - It's really simple.....look at the visible numbers.  Right under the Renderosity logo

Saturday, May 5, 2012 8:43 AM

4789 artists currently online

Now go do the same at the DAZ site.

Same setup - signed in users at both places.  Huge difference in numbers.

If anyone needs to worry, it's not Rendo or Poser users.

Whether they are active in the forum is moot.......there's a whole lot more folks HERE than there.

 

Keep in mind that Rendo is much more then Poser, we're only a part of this community.

You were discussing customers as was I.

And, frankly, I don't see much hope in CP customers changing much.......seems they have a pretty bad reputation among long time users.  Especially on the DAZ forums.

I just checked at DAZ - 55 users online.

Allow me to mention that I am quite proud of the people here who have secessfully defused what could easily have been another locked thread. My thanks to the ladies and gentlemen who self-moderated this thread.

From the services I use, Daz3d and Renderosity appear to be roughly equal in daily traffic.

On the users, I'm guessing the 4000+ numbers is a 24 hour running count of unique visitors, and Daz's 55 number is a 15 minute running cookie total.

FWIW, and that's not much.

And don't forget the Big Gallerie from Renderosty too.

Many are online too, just to walk through the galleries.

Just because someone doesn't often post in the forum is no reason to speculate that the number of Poser Pro 2012 / Poser 9 users is small. I use Poser Pro 2012, and the only feature I haven't bothered with is the hair room.

I don't understand why people who post to this forum see a conflict with DAZ and SmithMicro. If you prefer the content for Jenny, use DAZ Studio and be happy.  If you prefer the legacy models, or want to use a weight-mapped V4 (as I do), use Poser.

What's the big deal?

Poser is software that allows people to growas an artist. The simple "make art" features are still there. We can still load a figure, load a canned pose Load a conforming outfit and Pop on a canned and hit render. Or we can take the time to delve into the various rooms and make more advanced images. I've never used poser 4 but those features still seem to be there. There are just more features that can also be used to allow a greater range of expression.

As far as the amount of users I don't think we can look at the number of users online at  daz or renderosity. Daz includes 3-D studio, hexagon, Bryce and Carrera. Renderosity includes all of those plus many other forms of software. Neither gives indication of who uses what software. The only way to truly tell if software is on the decline in by looking at the number of sales for each program.

Quote - Poser is software that allows people to growas an artist. The simple "make art" features are still there. We can still load a figure, load a canned pose Load a conforming outfit and Pop on a canned and hit render. Or we can take the time to delve into the various rooms and make more advanced images. I've never used poser 4 but those features still seem to be there. There are just more features that can also be used to allow a greater range of expression.

As far as the amount of users I don't think we can look at the number of users online at  daz or renderosity. Daz includes 3-D studio, hexagon, Bryce and Carrera. Renderosity includes all of those plus many other forms of software. Neither gives indication of who uses what software. The only way to truly tell if software is on the decline in by looking at the number of sales for each program.

All true.  But since we will never know sales figures, we can only go based on the traffic we can see on the websites.  Traffic generates sales.  If your customers never visit your web site, you can't sell them anything - especially since both companies are web based rather than brick and mortar stores.

Quote - All true.  But since we will never know sales figures, we can only go based on the traffic we can see on the websites.  Traffic generates sales.  If your customers never visit your web site, you can't sell them anything - especially since both companies are web based rather than brick and mortar stores.

But looking at Renderosity's traffic isn't going to tell you much since they are poser vendors. Yes I know they sell content but they don't sell the actual program. To get a better feel you would have to see what kind of traffic is that Smith Micro. and they don't have a counter.

I skipped over this thread several times thinking it was a tech problem Such as:

" Help !!!my content wont load in either poser or Daz studio !! they are both screwed up!!"

but alas was sucked in, yet again, to another "I cant use genesis" thread

LOL stupid me!!

Bye

Cheers

Quote - > Quote - All true.  But since we will never know sales figures, we can only go based on the traffic we can see on the websites.  Traffic generates sales.  If your customers never visit your web site, you can't sell them anything - especially since both companies are web based rather than brick and mortar stores.

But looking at Renderosity's traffic isn't going to tell you much since they are poser vendors. Yes I know they sell content but they don't sell the actual program. To get a better feel you would have to see what kind of traffic is that Smith Micro. and they don't have a counter.

DAZ is a content seller now as well, same as Rendo.

The bottom line is simple though........traffic generates sales.

frankly scarlett i dont give a damned...

 its all 'personal preference' ...for me who has the best sales figures has nothing to do with it, the battle has nothing to do with me, i use what 'I' like and i base what 'I' like on personal preference... y'all can argue till the cows come home and it wont make any difference...your personal preference has no bearing on mine , nor mine on yours, you arent going to influence anyone to 'like' your preference... argument is counter productive...only influences us to 'like' or 'dislike' each other...me personally i love everybody, well except for S.N.E.R.T.'s....

:O)

I don't know. It's a bit of Coke vs. Pepsi and Mac vs. PC with me. I like and use both Coke and Pepsi or Mac and PC, but if offered a choice I prefer Pepsi over Coke and Mac over PC.

With Studio, it's a who nuther ball game. For the longest time, Studio just didn't offer the features that Poser had, so I never bothered. Now, I just don't care about Studio at all. I prefer Poser exclusively.

Newbies tend to like and prefer whatever software they learn first, so it wouldn't surprise me much to learn that Studio has pulled ahead of Poser in use, but I'd be stunned silly to learn that Studio outsells Poser.

When it comes down to it, who cares what anyone else uses as long as you are happy with what YOU use.

Genesis does not work fully in Poser.

Miki3 does not work fully in Studio.

Can you make them work 100% in the program that they were not intended for?

If not, why worry.

It's just wasted time that could be used on doing something better.

Get over it, go do something better!

All the best.

LROG

On the subject of Poser's complexity - I'm not sure why that should be a problem. You have always had a lot of control over the ui, so you only need to have what you use and understand up there, while most of the harder stuff is kept in rooms you never need to visit.

Having said that, SM did release a Starter edition, which is cheap and fills the role of Poser 4 nicely with pleny of handy features and nothing to confuse you - as well as the friendly manual. It's robust too, so a newbie can use it on a fairly cheap/old computer - I've been able to install Poser on my netbook with no graphics card and no problem! (Some of you may be thinking "Why the hell bother putting it on a netbook?" but I have a runtime full of toons which make nice illustrations for my family emails)

Quote - Coleman might have a point.
See
http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?thread_id=2848886

 

Not really a great example.. I'd say creating a dev rig and creating content is not exactly a newbie function nor should one expect it to be dead simple.  Nothing in that thread is an indicater of poser being particularly complex.. especialy since this particular bit of 'complexity' was part of the figure not something poser makes necessary

Quote - They're fixing the small problems like with every version release.

I just have a feeling, a lot of Poser 8 and Pro 2012 folks are not upgrading... and it's because Poser 9/2012 offer nothing new except more advanced features that MOST Posers don't really use.

instead of catering to the folks who wanted 3DS Max features... they should have focused on features that made Poser easier to use for the basic user and total newb... a large customer base.

You have to be kidding... Poser 9/2012 offered the best upgrade to posers core function in ages.  Poser is about rendering and poser 9/ pp2012 make much better renders much easier to accomplish.  P9/PP2012 simply blows away earlier version of Poser and the current version of DS.  On top of that its all much easier to achieve than before.  To me, the end result of better renders is less complicated to achieve in the new version vs the previous version.

Quote -
You have to be kidding... Poser 9/2012 offered the best upgrade to posers core function in ages.  Poser is about rendering and poser 9/ pp2012 make much better renders much easier to accomplish.  P9/PP2012 simply blows away earlier version of Poser and the current version of DS.  On top of that its all much easier to achieve than before.  To me, the end result of better renders is less complicated to achieve in the new version vs the previous version.

I'm certainly not going back! Baggins Bill once wrote that he couldn't stand using the older version of the program, after he'd experienced the changes to Poser 9 / Pro 2012.  I agree fully!

I'm a Poser newbie. I just got into Poser with Poser 9 and have now sidegraded to Pro 2012.

Very happy with it. Getting good render results as far as I'm concerned. Without a ridiculous amout of effort... largely thanks to the likes of Bagginsbill and the fantastic community of enthusiasts grown up around Poser. Although it is an addictive activity...

On an unrelated note, and entirely off topic for this forum or thread, one of my other hobbies is gardening. I really like my local garden centre.

I keep getting flyers through my letterbox from another garden centre. They're being quite pushy in their marketing and well, if I was a weaker minded guy... ;-)

But why would I swap to using that alternative garden centre where I've heard the seeds are genetically modified to not grow elsewhere... and no way of getting round that is currently provided? That's right... it's a walled garden centre.

I'm not sure I trust the gardeners there to keep up the maintenance either, based on the current state of their free public garden.... they do have a lot of pretty flowers available at their garden centre shop. But the ones I really like are mostly all bought in from other independent gardeners anyway... and aren't genetically modified... yet at least. Certainly at present I'm very happy to buy those flowers. But I have no desire to buy those new, genetically modified ones... as pretty as they might be...

...not unless or until they come up with a decent way that I can get past the inherent restricitons on where I can plant them.

;-)

I see what you did there mister monkey cloud!

That was indeed clever, MonkeyCloud... :biggrin:

Quote - DAZ has this new incredible model that does more than any of their previous models ever did... but they made it application specific. In order to use this model you can ONLY use it to its fullest capabilitity in one single application.

They screwed themselves with getting a full customer base. They now have to target newbies non-stop.

Well, if the other applications (okay, Poser) are (is) unable to use that figure to its fullest, whose fault is that? 

Let me give you a ferinstance in real life here. Microsoft has .doc, .xls, .ppt, and other MS Office file formats. Is it up to Microsoft to make it so that everyone else's applications are able to read/write it? Nope. It's up to all the other app makers to be able to read it. 

Same with PDF files, .MAX files (sound familiar?), .my files, you name it. 

As for what Poser did? I shouted myself hoarse about that years ago. The forum rats and the PTB there decided otherwise. TBH, I consider myself blameless for what's become of it.

Quote - And as someone heavily invested in this whole thing I sat by and watched this all come about.

Meh - I still use DS 3.x for the most part... but only because I can't stand the oversized DS4 UI, and Poser still feels too damned slow, UI-wise (my computer is a Core i7 w/ a mid-range GeForce and 8GB of RAM, so it ain't the machinery).

After watching 'em do waht they wanted in spite of urgning otherwise, I sat by and quite frankly stopped giving a shit what the Poser team did. As long as my existing software still works, I'm happy. I may shift to DS4 eventually, but only if I get enough time to do a bit of research, fix the stupid UI, and make my own mod of it so that I can find it usable again. That of couse changes if someone beat me to it.

Quote - We have painted ourselves into a corner.

Yep. They'll just have to learn to un-paint themselves.

Quote - It's really simple.....look at the visible numbers.  Right under the Renderosity logo

Saturday, May 5, 2012 8:43 AM

4789 artists currently online

The vast majority are "Visitor", as it has always been. Anyone who can click a link and scroll down to "Visitor" (and see the 2300+ sessions out of the 3372 total at time of writing) can see for themselves. 

Clue: Most are here to see the galleries. The vast majority are not here to get Poser advice, buy products, or get all the dirt on the latest/greatest version.

Renderosity counts all site visitors to all areas. By contrast, the only place anyone is counted number-wise is the DAZ Forums... not the galleries, the store, or what-have-you.

Long story short? If you're relying on that little counter to gauge the health of the product/community at large, you're in for a big disappointment.

(and one of these days I'll learn to spell "disappointment" correctly the first time...)