Hi all,

There has been a lot of bad mouthing each other in the forum of late, and it is making people not want to post to the site. I've gotten several sitermails the last few days that state this very plainly and clearly.

We would like to do more forum challenges and such but do not have time to focus on those sort of things because we are too busy trying to put out fires. 

Everyone will not always agree and just because someone thinks a certain program is better than the other does not make it wrong or right, everyone has different opinions, likes, and dislikes. This extends to polycounts, favorite figures, texturing techniques, shaders and more.

There is an old addage: "If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all." From now on, if I see a post that looks like it could change the course of a discussion and go way off topic or start a debate, it will be removed without notice. 

Please know I am not doing this trying to cause bad feelings, I am just trying to keep the forum a peaceful, productive enviroment.

This is not up for discussion as I just wanted to make everyone aware. This policy has the backing of Renderosity management.

Warmest Regards and happy posting!

Basicwiz

I just want to get this clear so that I don't make any more mistakes. So I emphasize: I am not arguing. I am asking for clarification.

No more debates? If we disagree about something that is not a matter of verifiable fact, we should not post? Nor ask for, nor offer, critical feedback?

The only meaningful answer I can give you is this.

Feel free to state your opinions, regardless of what they are. Let others state their opinions. Disagreements are fine. Arguing, with the blind goal of proving one's unverifiable point is not. Let the marketplace of ideas decide those issues.

I'm simply asking that the baiting and attacks stop. This is more about the way things are being said than what is being said. 

Any thread that is primarily about bashing something is unproductive on the face.

 I hope you dont go away! It seems clear to me that disagreement is fine-personal attacks are out.

Quote - I'm sorry. I still don't quite understand. :(

I'll go away and stop bothering you.

Eric, she deleted her post. Not me.

someting nice :biggrin:

Back at you! 

I wish the mods lots of patience, endurance, and motivation.  Trying to get a forum back under control is not the easiest task, and it comes with a lot of, shall we say, hard feelings, and little appreciation.

As a long time lurker, I've watched the forums slowly move from politeness to brashness to outright coarseness.

Thank you in advance for the effort.

Kendall

I don't know that arbitrarily deleting posts with no notice is necessarily the way to go. I mean, I can go elsewhere for that. But I ain't the mod... I just know it'll make me come here less if my posts start to disappear ;). I've gotta be honest...lol. This was the last place that let you debate without fear of having your thoughts disappear. I do agree that we all need to calm it down a few hundred notches tho. I just don't think deleting, without an explanation as to why is the way to deal with it. Of course, I can't offer other ways to deal with it, so take that with a grain of salt..lol.

When you think about it, if one knows their posts will be deleted, they may be more inclined to mouth off because there's really no threat of reprisal there other than their post disappears. That's just an educated guess tho rather than based on statement of fact ;). Why not the procedures already in place for the forums? Is there a reason those can't be enforced?

Laurie

Well, good luck with the dictatorship. Oh, sorry that wasn't nice..... I meant thank you for making this a happy place, flowing with lots of positive energy and bringing unity into the world.

Anyway, the only result will be that this forum will even get less visitors. Perhaps Rendo hasn't noticed it, but with every forum rule they've enforced over the last 2 years, the forum attendance decreased.

I agree with LaurieA...... and what I do find most funny is that about a year ago a number of us got some staff warnings to tone down. Most of us did (yes even I avoided the heated discussions), but it's obvious we weren't the problem at all..... the problem only seemed to have grown worse.

One thing we all know.... you may have just zapped the little life that still was left in this place and now Rendo will become just like the rest. I just miss the old days.... lot'd of people posting, at times heated discussions, no one complaining, except for the staff. I just wish all of us good luck with adjusting to the new situation. I agree though that people should refrain from attacks and if a heated discussion means a lot of attacks, then that's not good at all. Seems like people have lost the art of debating and speaking ones mind without attacking someone personally. That is a shame.

Quote - Seems like people have lost the art of debating and speaking ones mind without attacking someone personally. That is a shame.

Now there is a statement that gets my full support.

basicwiz, I hope you take this comment in the good spirit it is meant but feel free to delete it.  I really do understand where you are coming from and I hate the personal attacks that have taken place in over the last year, not just the last few weeks.  That said the process you outline is going to be so difficult to get right.

There are people here that are some very skilled, and thus busy people, who have given masses of help in these forums.  Yet, due to their lack of time and direct nature, many have taken offence at what has been said.  I understand both sides of this equation but I would hate to see the posts deleted.

There is a thread here at the moment "Look what I just came across" that displays another aspect.  One poster put up information that they thought to be correct and did not like the way they were corrected.  Yet another jumped in to explain that the response was just they way the person posted on all occasions.   In all cases the person in qustion was trying to further the dicussion and at no point was there any intended malice. End result, both parties aknowledged each other and the thread continued with some very interesting background.  I suspect under the new rules this thread will have been killed very early on.

So basicwiz, I respect your work so far and support you 100% in your aims to stop the personal attacks and the baiting but please handle the policy with care as it may achieve it's aim by killing all posts, not just the nasty ones.

I agree with your view Basicwiz, and am glad we have a mod that actually is watching and taking care of those whom truley do want to debate.  You learn alot from debating and other's view when it comes to programs and artwork.  And let's face it this is about art and software to achieve that, not a political stand on right and wrong.

I actually slowed down here because all there seems to be is bickering and I can't go forward with verbal abuse, I don't learn anything useful, just walk away shaking my head.

Thank you. Sharen

@basicwiz:

I've watched/browsed/read most of the heated discussions here in a lurker-mode. I think you've done an excellent job as a moderator so far. So there ... thank you for doing what you do.

Good luck.

1. I hope this isn't based on the feedback of one or two pets who've gotten tweaked and threatened to pull up their pants and go home.

2. "... it will be removed without notice." Suggest a 'comment removed' otherwise some may think their post simply didn't go through.

3. I know the type of comments you're talking about but predictive deletion is tricky. Pretty much the exact same comment by one person may not elicit the same response if made by someone else or worded differently - again good luck.

4. IMO, a public warning to the individual before deletion is more fair. For repeat offenders, maybe go straight to deletion. Still, a 3 day ban may be more effective in the end.

5. It's mostly a few people on a few topics usually. I don't say this lightly as I may be in the number but again, shock therapy may be the best bet. Ban the participants. If they leave and don't come back so be it. That would be sad because again, it's usually only one or two topics that get them wound up. You have my support as long as you are fair and don't protect the teacher's pets.

"It seems clear to me that disagreement is fine-personal attacks are out."

IMO real attacks are rare here. The real problem is often the endless repetition of a subjective opinion by the same person that grates and grates and causes tempers to rise. Passive-Aggressive behavior can provoke a fight just as surely as punching someone in the face. That's why I think a few surgical strikes would work better than having everyone wondering what they can say and how they can say it. Rude, a$$hat behavior is in a category by itself and often not really a personal attack. It is unnecessary and shouldn't be rationalized, but people accept it and Animal Farm rules are in effect, so whatever.

Rather than futzing/breaking with the editor (big/colored text is great isn't it?), maybe they should work on an ignore filter, a one click 'report this post' (can be disabled for those who abuse it) etc. Maybe things will cool down once the DAZ/SM thing resolves more or summer passes or the election or whatever but there will always be something. Forum features are no substitute for common sense/courtesy or good moderation but maybe they can help.

We already have the facility to add advisories to our posts ('language', 'nudity' etc.).

Why not two more: 'Off topic' and 'Warning'?

The 'off topic' advisory would normally be applied by the poster. It would allow for diverse discussion to happen within a thread, and yet make it easy for people to view the whole thread without those posts by modifying their forum profile to ignore off topic posts.

The 'Warning' advisory would normally only be applied by a moderator. It would serve as a public warning that the post was inappropriate in some way. Users can choose to not see posts flagged with a 'warning' advisory by modifying their forum profile.

This approach makes use of the forum functionality (advisories) that already exist and results in no deletions or censorship at all. It is left to each user to decide what they want to see.

Quote - We already have the facility to add advisories to our posts ('language', 'nudity' etc.).

Why not two more: 'Off topic' and 'Warning'?

The 'off topic' advisory would normally be applied by the poster. It would allow for diverse discussion to happen within a thread, and yet make it easy for people to view the whole thread without those posts by modifying their forum profile to ignore off topic posts.

The 'Warning' advisory would normally only be applied by a moderator. It would serve as a public warning that the post was inappropriate in some way. Users can choose to not see posts flagged with a 'warning' advisory by modifying their forum profile.

This approach makes use of the forum functionality (advisories) that already exist and results in no deletions or censorship at all. It is left to each user to decide what they want to see.

I think this is an excellent suggestion.  It allows those who are interested in the thread, yet ignoring it over unpleasantries, to participate.

It would be nice if we could make this work.

I take the view that censorship is a little ott, from my personal standpoint i refrain from posting in those threads, in all honesty there are always going to be persons with "an agenda" who get a kick out of hijacking or turning threads into a personal attack.

Surely a better system would be to "warn" those involved without it seeming that heated debate was frowned upon.

The warning advisory would not change much. If a decent discussion is going on and an inappropriate/inflamatory post is made, a warning advisory would effectively kill the thread for those who are interested in the subject but who do not want the bickering.

I don't say I don't want it, just that it would not change much

I think this is a good idea. Too many good threads have gone down hill as of late. I agree with lmckenzie that a thread removed notice should be put in place of the thread so that if someone replies to it while it's being removed it won't look like the replying person has gone nuts.

Perhaps someone can write a tutorial on how to debate without arguing.

The one idea that I really like in all of the above is the "Comment Removed". Simply leave the comment form, but replace the text with "Comment Removed." That gives feedback to the poster and doesn't disturb the thread.

Probably the way to go.

There is another proverb: The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Censorship is always a tricky thing. And this: "From now on, if I see a post that looks like it could change the course of a discussion and go way off topic or start a debate, it will be removed without notice" is utterly unacceptable in my book. Especially the "or start a debate" and the "without notice" parts.

I think you might think it's for the best, but so did Tomás de Torquemada, Kim Il-sung and some other guys who are just not worth to be mentioned.

Until now this forum was the one place in the internet where I felt a sense of community. Because 99% of the people here try to be helpful and kind. Give us an Ignore!-button for sanity's sake, but do NOT try to become the one person who decides what can be said - and what not.

Edit because of cross-post:

This:"Simply leave the comment form, but replace the text with "Comment Removed"." would be much(!) better, IMO.

Removing posts is not what I WANT to do. However, you'll noticed how well our policies have worked so far. I'm still waiting for a better suggestion that will stop the mean-spirited pot stirring.

And yes. It's a tiny minority that is the problem. 99% do nothing wrong.

Maybe this is an idea: If the OP indicates in the first post that his/her thread is to be without fights, a zero tolerance policy is used for disruptive behaviour.

If someone disagrees he/she can start their own thread about the subject

Quote - We already have the facility to add advisories to our posts ('language', 'nudity' etc.).

Why not two more: 'Off topic' and 'Warning'?

When I first read this, I thought it read "'Off topic' and 'Whining'!" :lol:

I guess I need to clean my glasses...

I don't know how well the self-administered OT flag would work. Personally, I'd probably never filter out OT because thread drift by itself isn't bad. Of course, I usually enjoy the way things are free wheeling around here and a post about the latest NVIATWAS can get into gender stereotypes or whatever. That's fun and interesting. A lot of the strife isn't necessarily because of OT, it's someone with a bizarrely religious zeal about one aspect of the discussion. I may be focusing on one or two recent threads too much, but that seems to be the case. Trusting the author to flag their comments as OT in such cases may be too much to hope for.

I think a warning flag and/or deleting posts would be sufficient - especially if 'warned' posts could be filtered out in our prefs. I trust Basicwiz to use those effectively. Hopefully most of us would take the hint and be more careful if warned/deleted. Probably nothing short of ejection would deter a few but at least the ability to not see their antics would help stop things getting out of control. I do admit to taking perverse amusement in seeing how wacky things can get (as long as I can resist getting drawn in) get but even I can live without it :-)

Quote - When I first read this, I thought it read "'Off topic' and 'Whining'!" :lol: I guess I need to clean my glasses...

ROFLMAO 

Quote - We already have the facility to add advisories to our posts ('language', 'nudity' etc.).

Why not two more: 'Off topic' and 'Warning'?

The 'off topic' advisory would normally be applied by the poster. It would allow for diverse discussion to happen within a thread, and yet make it easy for people to view the whole thread without those posts by modifying their forum profile to ignore off topic posts.

The 'Warning' advisory would normally only be applied by a moderator. It would serve as a public warning that the post was inappropriate in some way. Users can choose to not see posts flagged with a 'warning' advisory by modifying their forum profile.

This approach makes use of the forum functionality (advisories) that already exist and results in no deletions or censorship at all. It is left to each user to decide what they want to see.

This post made me think that, perhaps, forum interfaces will have to evolve at some point, and I don't mean only this one, I mean everywhere.  

Add more tools for both the staff and the users, for example, like snarly's idea of more flags, a moderator could flag a post (or user, just for the thread, if they keep it up) and then, others, could filter out certain flags, like, I walk in an interesting thread, see some inflamatory posts that are flaged, filter the "warning" flagged posts, and bingo, I have a clean thread to read peacefuly.

I've just never understood why Rendo, being just about the ONLY forum around that has no ignore feature, would rather have its mods dancing to put out fires all over the place than add that one, small, universally accepted feature. I think the strife in the forums very well may grind to a halt.

Well, as long as I'm on record as saying the deletion suggestion makes me sick to my stomach ;). How do you decide really what you can allow and what you can't? It's a slippery slope and a decision I'm really glad I don't have to make...heh.

Laurie

Laurie, I agree 100%. I wish I had a nickel for everytime I have asked for an "ignore" button. You see how far I've gotten with the idea. The programmers apparently have other, more pressing priorities. I wish I had an answer for you.

For the record, I am asking for the feature again, right now, in the coord forum.

Quote - The one idea that I really like in all of the above is the "Comment Removed". Simply leave the comment form, but replace the text with "Comment Removed." That gives feedback to the poster and doesn't disturb the thread.

Probably the way to go.

I think this sounds reasonable, if you're prepared to do it this way BasicWiz.

It would be preferable to comments just being "disappeared" without a trace, or any notification.

I have enough issues remembering / figuring out what I've actually said and what I've just imagined saying, already. LOL :lol:

So if you ever had reason to censor me, I'd much rather see a "comment removed" to put my mind at rest...

Plus it gives some sort of feedback to the poster being censored, as you say...

I like some of the ideas here and I do support the action taken up until now.  If any of my post are seen to have been misguided or have the possibility to cause offence I am happy to have the post removed.  That is because it will not of been my intention and would not like to upset others.

The irony of course is that the 1% that cause all the problems might read this thread but they are not going to add to it or take any notice.   I already moderate myself in that I try not to get involed with any 'G' discussion (although I am not perfect in t this respect) as I know where it is probably going to end.  I also tend not to follow threads when certain individuals become involved as I have a good idea where it is likely to go.  That is not to say that I stop reading just because someone is passionate about something or they are having a bad day.  I stop when one of three individuals join the thread with the same information they add everytime and have done so in any thread where they do not like the way the discussion is going. 

Sad thing is though, while I miss the odd thread that may have been educational I miss the people who used to psot here and have left, far more.

Moderating must been a thankless task so all the moderators have my respect but I am concerned that, even with the high standard of moderation we have here the number of intresting threads seem to be reducing in number, I stress the word 'seem' and it is clearly my personal view.

Perhaps you could ask them exactly WHAT they think they'd be losing with an ignore feature. Because it seems to me like they think that, due to the very resistance against it. Others before you Doug have tried. You can ignore a user in chat...why not the forums? Are they afraid you'll have nothing to do? LOLOL.

Laurie

Oh, believe me! I have PLENTY to do without having to deal with unrully children! ROFL.

I don't think it's resistance as much as it's a very low priority. The programmers, very understandably,  tend to focus more on the storefront and sales system, because that's where the money comes from.

The more people who ask for the feature, the better case my bosses can make for it. I'm just a cog in the wheel around here, but I work for a couple of VERY responsive people. They just need ammunition to fight with.

Personally, I would probably only use an "ignore" / "block user" button if it could be applied per thread... unless I noted a specific individual doing nothing else, ever, but trolling or evangelising obsessively and aggresively on one topic, I suppose...

...but, the technical implementation of per thread blocking would likely be much trickier, I would guess.

Even if I wouldn't use it, I guess a more general "ignore user" button would be welcomed by a lot of folk though...

Quote - Personally, I would probably only use an "ignore" / "block user" button if it could be applied per thread... unless I noted a specific individual doing nothing else, ever, but trolling or evangelising obsessively and aggresively on one topic, I suppose...

...but, the technical implementation of per thread blocking would likely be much trickier, I would guess.

Exactly! I dont' think I'd use one across the board. There are few forums where I've blocked anyone universally. Per thread is an awesome suggestion. Chat does that very thing and it's worked very well. There's only one instance that comes to mind where any staff needed to get involved. Perhaps Rendo needs to take a page from the chat program...lolol.

If I knew what needed to be coded, I'd offer my services for free just to get it done. However, I can't code my way out of a paper bag...lol.

Laurie

We are all humans.
We have emotions.
We love what we do.
We have a passion.
That is life.

Open discussions are what drives us to more knowledge.
Facts and figures, "hard data", screengrabs with proof.
Showing and sharing tips and tricks.

Emotions are like a 2 sided knife.
Love and hate are close together.

The "mine is better then yours" is a trigger to disaster.
The "red flag" for the bull.

Moderating is an art.

A "Comment removed", combined with a sitemail warning to the individual, would indeed be an improvement.

Have a nice day, and happy Posering to all.
Tony

Thank you, and the other mods.  It's a tough job, but I appreciate the work you've been doing.  There's no reason we can't have lively discussion and debate without the bickering and bashing and personal attacks that a small number of posters engage in.

Quote - Perhaps you could ask them exactly WHAT they think they'd be losing with an ignore feature. Because it seems to me like they think that, due to the very resistance against it. Others before you Doug have tried. You can ignore a user in chat...why not the forums? Are they afraid you'll have nothing to do? LOLOL.

Laurie

I vote for the ignore feature as well.  On one of the political boards I frequent, the moderators have the option of putting members on "forced ignore" which really give them the power to stop the bickering.

Quote - Oh, believe me! I have PLENTY to do without having to deal with unrully children! ROFL.

I don't think it's resistance as much as it's a very low priority. The programmers, very understandably,  tend to focus more on the storefront and sales system, because that's where the money comes from.

The more people who ask for the feature, the better case my bosses can make for it. I'm just a cog in the wheel around here, but I work for a couple of VERY responsive people. They just need ammunition to fight with.

I understand the low priority and the difficult position you are in but the more people that come to these threads should also mean that more people have a look to see what is for sale and hopefully buy something.  The programmers certainly need to concentrate on the storefront but if they could find the time to add to the forums that might have a positve impact on the storefront as well.

I like the idea.

I would love to see this place get back to what it was, a place where you can talk about all products without fear that the usual group of people will come in and try to turn it into a d/s-poser debate and have it descend into that usual non-sense.

I think those things have done more to drive people away from these forums than any strong moderation will ever accomplish.

I always love a good argument...but there is a difference between arguing and just blindly voiceing opinions based on ones personal agenda.

DAZ is not a 4-letter word, and poser is not the be all and end all entity unto itself. Poser does use DAZ products, and both daz and poser (under whichever owner) have grown as a result of the relationship between the two. Those who try to divorce one from the other are really fighting the wind....both are intimately entwined and will continue to be so. So lets let this place be open to talk about either without fear of the trolls coming in to try to shut things down.

Yeah... not been here that long... so maybe don't get the repetition of certain themes as much as some of the more veteran members.

But I'd say on the whole I find plenty of interesting threads and posts happening here, to keep me coming back...

[Comment Removed]

Quote - Psst, Rawnrr: This new "policy" is of course not directed at the Poser evangelicals who spew bile and misinformation every way they can about how much "DAZ" has "betrayed the Poser community" and that "Genesis" is nothing but an evil money grabbing scheme.

The ones who have to be purged from this fine community are of course people like us who do nothing else but trying to explain what Genesis is actually about, how technically advanced it really is and how much potential it has for vendors and users alike.

Hating on DAZ makes many people happy, and happy people buy more stuff.

Trying to educate people OTOH is boring and repetitive and noone likes that.

Thought I should clear this up for you.

;-)

 

Hah...well...I am sure that post will get deleted LOL

But nah...i think there are alot of reasonable people around who actually listen to things. Most things are just common sense.

Lol !

I'm all for giving the trouble makers an arse kicking.  

I still can't see for the life of me why anyone would get a bug up their arse about software for making pictures.  For that matter, I can't see why anyone would give a tin shit about what DAZ or SM do, or why, so long as it doesn't cause the end of the world, mutated children, mass starvation and so forth.  You don't like their stuff?  Don't buy it.  Simples.

I am also royally pissed off with certain people making thinly veiled - and sometime not so much - condescending and/or sarcastic remarks which are posted with the sole intent of getting up somebody's nose.  True, I can ignore them but why should I have to?  In real life, people don't get away with that sort of crap for long; somebody usually gives them a good hiding.

Anyhow, props to you, Basicwiz.  Lang may yer lum reek.  (Ask monkeycloud what it means). :) 

Quote -  Lang may yer lum reek.  (Ask monkeycloud what it means). :) 

Ok... I'll byte. Oh, Cloud?????????????????????????????

Quote - Personally, I would probably only use an "ignore" / "block user" button if it could be applied per thread... unless I noted a specific individual doing nothing else, ever, but trolling or evangelising obsessively and aggresively on one topic, I suppose...

...but, the technical implementation of per thread blocking would likely be much trickier, I would guess.

Even if I wouldn't use it, I guess a more general "ignore user" button would be welcomed by a lot of folk though...

Yeah. "Ignore per thread" would be a nice feature!

Ignoring someone completely can mean you miss some useful posts.

I'm not a programmer, but the "ignore by thread" is what I've put the request in asking for. Again, I have no idea how "doable" it is. The last programming I did was in Visual Basic 6, when I wrote a radio station automation program. I'm no help when it comes to making things work on the web! (And you can all hold the snide comments that my last sentence is going to evoke! :))

Quote - > Quote -  Lang may yer lum reek.  (Ask monkeycloud what it means). :) 

Ok... I'll byte. Oh, Cloud?????????????????????????????

Literally, it means "long may your chimney smoke". I guess you can run with the metaphor from there...

It's what Scotty said in response to Mr Spock's "live long and prosper"... if I recall correctly... which, admittedly, I probably don't.

Thanks for putting in the request!

Quote - Thanks for putting in the request!

Well, that doesn't mean anything will come of it. As I've said before, I'm a very small cog on a much bigger wheel. But I know it's not the first time this idea's been up the flagpole. I suspect it does no harm to ask. Squeeking wheels and all of that.

I tried. We'll see.