I would say 97% of poser renders don't have proper faces for V4. What does everyone else think? What is the percentage we're looking for here? It's rarely to actually see a render with a "character" and not simply another V4.  What steps can we take to make sure V4 looks like a real person, a character and not simply V4?

Well, I would argue that there are more characters for V4 than any other figure ever made for Poser, and therefore MORE faces. Your definition of "proper" may differ from others...lol. As for making her look more real, you're held back by the render engine, the figure mesh, the material system and the lighting, so I think what the top Poser artists are doing these days is probably the limits of what you're gonna get out of Poser as it currently stands.

Laurie

I usually don't try to make her look like a "real person."  I prefer a more illustrative/idealized look. 

Hi.

What is a "proper faces for v4" ? Do you enjoy V4 without morphs ? Look at my gallery ;)

I'd argue that being a virtual model, V4 functions pretty much like a real-life actress. So unless you're creating a character with a specific "facial" look which you'd like to copyright or trademark, I don't see how her having a "proper" face is even relevant.

For example, Boris Karloff pretty much defined the role of Frankenstein's monster so well, that ever since, most Frankenstein's  Monsters pretty much all look alike.

On the other hand, Dracula's face tends to change from actor to actor.

Some use more than one variation of faces, but I have found one I am happy with and will continue to use that one.

All the best.

LROG

I think that the issue is more of people not bothering to do the little things that make a face more realistic (...topics which have been covered numerous times in the past):

1. Make the face ever so slightly non-symettrical: whether by expression or morphs adjustments, ensure that the right half and left half are not the exact same.

2. Focus the eyes on something... that blank, vacant stare is a dead give-away of not doing a portrait of a 'person', just a render of a 3d dollie.

Just these two things will help turn even the most common or recognizable face shape morph into something 'real'.

"Proper faces for V4" is a very ambiguous statement which lacks definition.  As LaurieA posted, there are many V4 based characters available that will make convincingly real renders.  But there are other factors that play a role in bringing out the realism, if that is what you truly want to achieve.  Facial features can be dial spun or the mesh modified in a 3rd party program (custom).  Dial spinning will most likely contain traces of the original V4 base, unless you have hundreds of facial morphs at your disposal.  This is by far the easiest way to construct features.  Or export the head as an morph target object into a modeling program and sculpt the mesh to your liking.  Not an easy task, and there are few users that are successful at it.  If you are a vendor relying on 3D content as extra pocket change, you would like to turn out as many characters within a short time.  This means performing a workflow which will save time and give results quickly.  Granted, this method may carry over base features but, in most cases, time is money.

I have seen only a small fraction of the V4 renders out there, but I can say with certainty that in the renders I have seen the face is the least of the problems.

And then there are those of us who never us V4 at all!!  Long Live Queen Posette!!

dph

(30 minutes dialspin to make an Anna Torv clone. No custom morphs)

The problem is just that many users prefer "stylized" and so the same three dials get used again and again and again.

After 17 years of Posering, I agree with David.

There are only Dolls in Poser. Real women are nowhere to be found.

And  I agree with Paloth; V4's face is the least of her problems. But she is the Poser queen, yes.
But only because at the time there was nothing else.
And now she has a huge support base.

V4 does not survive because of beauty, or because it is a good figure, but only through her support files.

And Miss Gray blubber is for DS only.
That thing will never be a Poser chick, unless they deliver a "cleaned up" object file and a "seriously cleaned up" cr2.

DSON was the very BEST thing that could ever have happened to V4.

SM will have to fill a complete support runtime for their next figures, or V4 will continue for loooooong years to come.
(Sorry, too few oooo's there)

Happy 2013, and Happy Posering you all.
Tony

SM? Fill a complete support runtime for their figures, er aliens? Mwaaaahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahaha.

Er, sorry. I was just thinking even if I had a runtime full of Alyson and Ryan stuff I'd still never use any of it ;). Only if they were Tyler and Anastasia. Hahaha. Alyson and Ryan are the fugliest figures of any Poser version ever. Even worse than those shapeless blobs in the first versions. LOL. I fear that if we expect contenders for Vicky from SM then we shouldn't hold our breath lest we fall over and croak ;).

Laurie

@Laurie

SM did not include new figures in Poser9/PP2012.

And I agree on Aly who is plain ugly, somewhat less on Ryan.

Exept for : too many poly's, and bad poly distribution, and not good looking, and damm hard to work with or to build for.

They need a nice face to start with, and PLEASE, deflate the "standard Poser balloons". :-) And put them on the chest and not on the collar bones. :-)

But? Let us all hope that they will strike GOLD in the next version of Poser.

• Better looking figures with a nice smile when you open them for the very first time.
• Better Poly distrubution.
• Easy on the rigging = Is a FIRST priority. => Both, for the end users, and for the content creators.

And TONS of initial content and support files, or sadly, they will never leave the ground.

Funny thing is, V4 was rigged in Studio, for Studio, so she, just like Genesis, barely works in Poser compared to how well she works in Studio.

If you want a DAZ figure rigged in Poser, for Poser, you have to go back to V3, M3, D3, SP3 and the other 3rd gen meshes.

So, yes, what Vilters said, the only thing keeping V4 alive is the lack of a proper successor.

But Genesis won't go anywhere, because the Studio market is already big enough that selling to Poser users is just a bonus but not a necessity anymore.

And SmithMicro have already proven that they simply lack the talent, knowledge, money and time to create a mesh even as "bad" as V4, so to not become completely unattractive for new users, they have to fully incorporate the DSON tech into Poser sooner or later.

The sad thing is, the original MIKI was actually the most realistic ever Poser figure. (Except for the asian head. Which was great in it's own right. But didn't belong on that body)

You want a realistic Poser figure:

Replace MIKI I's head with a "proper" caucasian one. (Not that strange morph they used for Sydneyeyeyey.)

Retopologize her mesh so that the polycount is under 50.000 and all muscle groups are properly edgelooped.

Regroup and weightmap her.

Keep the bodyshape without any silly "improvements" because it is 100% perfectly realistic AS IT IS !

(3D.SK--> Aneta Keyes. Yes, she is MIKI)

For a man, start with LoRes James I. (NOT the horrible James II)

Great face, good topology, mostly needed good morphs and better rigging. (And less "bendy" legs. Lol)

DO NOT BASE THE KIDS ON THE FEMALE MESH. Use the male one instead. Much easier to start sculpting from a skinny man than to remove boobs and hips from a grown woman.

But of course noone will listen to what I have to say, anyway.

;-)

So I'll just keep on doing my own thing like weightmapping David and SP3.

Which are right next to MIKI the most "out of the box realistic" Poser meshes ever made.

Not only is there the question of the definition of a 'proper face' there is also the question of what you are trying to achieve.  I do not have the skills to create my own figure but I wanted something different so I used V4 as a base and then mixed a number of characters and then did a bit of dial spinning.

I also changed the eyes as I dislike burnt in reflections and only the very best characters appear to have the no refection option.  The end result was a character I called Cadhla. Does she have a proper face? Most certainly not, but the aim from the start was not to be photo realistic but believable.  The aim is the same in the Sci-Fi scenes she is discovered in, often purchased and with the textures tweaked or post worked to try to achieve the belief that such a setting 'could' exist.

More to the point I have used this character in my renders to illistrate a book I am writing for my own pleasure and members of my family.  As such she has taken on a believeable personality which must mean I see something others often don't.

It is a bit like reading a book, each reader will see their own hero or horoine, who is the say which version is most proper.

when you render naked or scantily clad women who is going to notice the head ?

• gets popcorn and chair *    ;-)

Quote - when you render naked or scantily clad women who is going to notice the head ?

 

• gets popcorn and chair *    ;-)

Fair point but with very few exceptions in the last five years, I don't do such renders, but that is my choice and is as valid or invalid as those that do.

Interesting concept, but even with scanty renders, I tend to look at the eyes first.

But, that's just me.

All the best.

LROG

All the best.

LROG

All depends on the morphs you have. You can get very realistic faces by making custom sculpts and morphs based on real life reference. There is enough poly's for that on V4. BUT most venders tend to be dial spinners so all of them use the same morphs just at different values, hense why they all look similar. First thing to achieve realism on V4, is to shrink the damn eyes. They are way too big. You'll be amazed at the difference it makes. So stop the dial spinning and make custom sculpts, then you will see something different. Unless that happens, majority of faces will continue to look the same. Look at odnajdy and the faces he comes up with. Aint no dial spinning there and immediately you can see the difference compared to the majority of characters available.

IMO it's possible to use just the face-morphs to make real life characters, I have made a lot of faces (more than 50) based on real life people just using the dials. I only use Zbrush for some specific details like noses. You're right about the eyes, but the nose and the mouth of the basic V4 are also out of propotion, so the first dial I use is the face size to make them smaller and more realistic.

 I think the biggest problem is that people are afraid to exagarate: real people have big noses, or a big chin or an ugly mouth. That are the features that make a real character. Subtility is not always the answer. The age-dial is also a big help, it gives more depth to a face.

What important is to know how to use the dials, how to achieve just that specific detail you want. And that is just a matter of trying and trying and trying. Sometimes I spent weeks to get the face I want, sometimes it's just a matter of hours and sometimes I completely blew it and have to start all over again. Over time you will get a feeling how faces are built and which dials you have to use.

The biggest problem I see with most morphs in Poser is that they are symmetrical.

Many times people pose them with breaking up the symmetry as well.

No ones face is symmetrical, let alone their body.

Just as an example. Look at the characters in the CG movie Beowulf, none of the female characters in it are symmetrical. Beowulf's wife (Wealtheow) is a good example.

CG fill characters have to match the actor to pull of any scene convincingly unless it is a very fast scene. If you are matching the actor it wont, and can't be, a symmetrical morph.

Ms V4 symmetrical/out of proportion, would stick out like a sore thumb in a movie like that no matter how you rendered it.

Nice work Joe!

Quote - Yes, V4's bodyshape is very toonified, but her face is actually quite realistic.

(30 minutes dialspin to make an Anna Torv clone. No custom morphs)

The problem is just that many users prefer "stylized" and so the same three dials get used again and again and again.

 That's a really Proper Pixie face!

Quote - Pixie sometimes just shows nothing below the neck! Lol.

All the best.

LROG

What I realized was that the default V4 eyes were way too big

Pretty good likeness of Megan Fox, I would say.

:-)

Yep, I was thinking Megan Fox too. LOL

Laurie

Quote - The biggest problem I see with most morphs in Poser is that they are symmetrical.

Many times people pose them with breaking up the symmetry as well.

No ones face is symmetrical, let alone their body.

Just as an example. Look at the characters in the CG movie Beowulf, none of the female characters in it are symmetrical. Beowulf's wife (Wealtheow) is a good example.

CG fill characters have to match the actor to pull of any scene convincingly unless it is a very fast scene. If you are matching the actor it wont, and can't be, a symmetrical morph.

Ms V4 symmetrical/out of proportion, would stick out like a sore thumb in a movie like that no matter how you rendered it.

Very good point as well. No face in real life is symmetrical. It's the small details that add to what makes a face more realistic.

You can make a realistic face with just the Morph++ dials, it just requires enough attention to detail. If you want to make it look real, it is probably better not to use a celebrity or movie star as reference. There has been too much plastic surgery done on those people, many are beginning to resemble Poser characters. In most cases the V4 eyes don't only need to be made smaller, but also closer together. For V4, you probably need to go into a modelling program for asymmetrical detail work. Blender's sculpting tools work very well for custom face morphs- Zbrush is a luxury most of us can't justify.

Quote - @Laurie

SM did not include new figures in Poser9/PP2012.

And I agree on Aly who is plain ugly, somewhat less on Ryan.

Exept for : too many poly's, and bad poly distribution, and not good looking, and damm hard to work with or to build for.

They need a nice face to start with, and PLEASE, deflate the "standard Poser balloons". :-) And put them on the chest and not on the collar bones. :-)

But? Let us all hope that they will strike GOLD in the next version of Poser.

• Better looking figures with a nice smile when you open them for the very first time.
• Better Poly distrubution.
• Easy on the rigging = Is a FIRST priority. => Both, for the end users, and for the content creators.

And TONS of initial content and support files, or sadly, they will never leave the ground

Why not request that Smith Micro take PosetteV3 and re-rig her for the more modern times.  Add the weight mapping too!  Also do the same with her conforming clothing.

Same with DorkM3.

That way, you have two figures with already a lot of built in support.

dph

Good guess! I made some slight assymetries as well-

Quote - Pretty good likeness of Megan Fox, I would say.

:-)

Good guess!

Quote - Yep, I was thinking Megan Fox too. LOL

Laurie

I'm missing the whole point of the question asked...... What's with the compulsions lately? Is that a new forum trend? I've noticed a couple of these threads.... we need to.... everyone must use this.... The oddest thing is that with a number of these threads, the op posts and disappears, while everyone keeps on discussing, kind of strange.

If I browse through the galleries I see a lot of characters for V4 being used, I would say at least 90% of people using V4 don't use it 'out of the box', but either use a morph or create their own character. OK, they don't all look realistic, let's be realistic..... this is Poser we're talking about. When using Poser and 3D models, only a certain amount of reality can be achieved, you'll never get it perfect, 97% of the time it will still look like a digital render. If people are that desperate for reality, why not buy a camera, get a model and start shooting pictures? I don't think it will be much more expensive then using poser, may actually end up being cheap and it sure is real, you can never achieve that with poser..... at the moment. You may get close and perhaps in years to come we may get very close.

I don't think many peope using poser want to create reality anyway or want their renders to look like real persons. It's the 3D'ish look which makes things interesting. I don't want to copy the real world, I want to create a world of my own and somehow make sure you don't mistake it for a photo, but you can see that I put a lot of effort into the image. That's the fun of using poser for me, I can create something I like and it doesn't have to look like something real and the characters I use don't have to be real persons or resemble them. If you want perfect reality, I don't think poser is the tool to use.

I agree.  I do sometimes try for celebrity likenesses, and I usually include some asymmetry in all my renders, at least of expression, just because I think it makes faces look less creepy, but I don't go for "realistic."  IMO, Poser is now capable rendering images that are deep in the "uncanny valley," and I generally try to steer clear of that.  Though it's not easy.  I've been using Poser so long that I'm used to it, and only dimly aware of how creepy normal people find many Poser renders.

Attached Link: Sample of one of my sci-fi chicks with lots of post work

 Yes, I agree completely. Many vendors have incredible realism in their characters, but what can you use it for except some creepy form of porn? I use TONS of post work to make my characters LESS real and more 2D hand painted. The uncanny valley thing is something I hear all the time including from top digital fx people who work on major movies here in Hollywood. I live in LA and meet a lot of big CGI pros and they are all against character realism. Although it can work well in gaming, not so much for feature films and selling art. People would rather buy photography of real people than digital ones to hang on their wall. 

The whole great thing with Poser is that you can create FANTASY, something beyond and very different from what photography can do. You can create aliens and fairies and monsters, oh my! I tend to focus on beautiful women, but highly stylized, clearly and purposely, not real looking. Although many people look at my art and think I'm just Photoshopping photos of real human models... V4 can look VERY real, but why do you need it?

Quote - V4 can look VERY real, but why do you need it?

Because that's what I'm shooting for in my art.

http://www.vettri.net/

V4's basic face is really a blank canvas. I know a lot of people complain about it, but trying to start with one that already has an ethnic design or personality built into it and work back is very hard. The V4 face shown here is no one in particular but about the best I can do right now with PP2012.

Good Luck

Quote - > Quote - V4 can look VERY real, but why do you need it?

Because that's what I'm shooting for in my art.

I would recommend getting comfortable with the morph brush or a seperate modeler to push around some polygons. Why be limited by what others offer? My stuff is far from stellar but I never use anything but my own face morphs. The only draw back is that any morphs that you may already have as part of morphs + etc. will probably not work anymore or look rediculous. 

I was talking about the skin textures. Some of the new SSS skin looks just amazingly real, so real that it gives characters that "uncanny valley" look that so many people are talking about these days. Morphs really depend what you're looking for from sexy vixens to adorable faeries to the girl next door. It's the newer textures and lighting that can make it look so real that it can creep some people out. I think that will change over the years because of video games, but right now it seems that outside of the Poser world, the general public is not a big fan of super realistic CGI people...

My gawd Mark! That just looks freakin awesome :). We don't have enough slightly older (or should I say fully adult) Vicky's around. Most of them look 14-something. LOL.

Great job.

Laurie

Quote - > Quote - > Quote - V4 can look VERY real, but why do you need it?

Because that's what I'm shooting for in my art.

 

I would recommend getting comfortable with the morph brush or a seperate modeler to push around some polygons. Why be limited by what others offer? My stuff is far from stellar but I never use anything but my own face morphs. The only draw back is that any morphs that you may already have as part of morphs + etc. will probably not work anymore or look rediculous. 

Indeed.

I am no sculptor, but I can get close to where I want to go by spinning dials and then exporting to a modeler and then doing some pushing and pulling. I have had no problems then using morphs++ for expressions.

As an interesting aside: if I use some existing morphs, but then move every vertex in the obj by hand, is it then permissable to make the subsequent new morph available for distribution?

V4 CAN look different and actually, her default face is pretty generic, so it's easily customizable. It just needs a little love ;)

Quote - I was talking about the skin textures. Some of the new SSS skin looks just amazingly real, so real that it gives characters that "uncanny valley" look that so many people are talking about these days. Morphs really depend what you're looking for from sexy vixens to adorable faeries to the girl next door. It's the newer textures and lighting that can make it look so real that it can creep some people out. I think that will change over the years because of video games, but right now it seems that outside of the Poser world, the general public is not a big fan of super realistic CGI people...

Ah well, you may well be right. But my target audience is not the general public. Furthermore I want my art to be provocative rather than comfortable.

The Uncanny Valley and beyond is my target.  And I do animations. When realistic figures start moving, walking, talking... now that gets really spooky! Hahaha!

My point is, rather, that because the Uncanny Valley is undesirable for you, that does not mean that other artists shouldn't go there. 

Quote - Just my opinion, but I think V4 has a head mesh conducive to yielding a realistic female face from a reasonable distance. I use the ++ morphs and about 300 self made morphs from an old version of Carrara to get the faces I come up with. As mentioned by others, it really helps to study female faces. There's a wealth of high definition photos out there on the web to look thru for celebrities now a days (see link). Make a copy of one or two in V4, and you can see where V4 needs help.

http://www.vettri.net/

V4's basic face is really a blank canvas. I know a lot of people complain about it, but trying to start with one that already has an ethnic design or personality built into it and work back is very hard. The V4 face shown here is no one in particular but about the best I can do right now with PP2012.

 

Good Luck

WOW. Nice Render!!!

I tink a lot of ppl are missin' the big picture. (Well... is purdy big to me, anyway.)

The OP guesstimated that 97% of V4's don' have "proper" faces, whatever the hell that means. And the majority of replies I see are hung up on the "realism" aspect, pro or con.

I also see that the majority of ppl (I'll also use the 97% guesstimate 'cuz I don' wanna do the math) respondin' to this thread have been doin' this fer +/- 10 years. Now I ent perused the galleries too deeply fer some time, but I gotta wonder what the percentage of renders are done by Newbies? I highly doubt that 97% of the artists posting have the  experience, time, talent, budget, education, patience, desire, etc to make a image that make ya say "Oooohhhh! Is it Real Or Memorex?".

Point is; It's a hobby not Rocket Surgery, and it's art, not a medical textbook. If Pagan wants to do fairies, it ent nobody's call to say "WRONG!" 'cept fer Pagan, & if I wanna do Nekkid Vicky In A Temple With A Sammich, I gonna do it.

Quote - Just my opinion, but I think V4 has a head mesh conducive to yielding a realistic female face from a reasonable distance. I use the ++ morphs and about 300 self made morphs from an old version of Carrara to get the faces I come up with. As mentioned by others, it really helps to study female faces. There's a wealth of high definition photos out there on the web to look thru for celebrities now a days (see link). Make a copy of one or two in V4, and you can see where V4 needs help.

http://www.vettri.net/

V4's basic face is really a blank canvas. I know a lot of people complain about it, but trying to start with one that already has an ethnic design or personality built into it and work back is very hard. The V4 face shown here is no one in particular but about the best I can do right now with PP2012.

 

Good Luck

That is the 3% right there.

Please share, please share, share, share, SHARE, share, share. Please share. Please seriously, share this charater like today or tomorrow. Sell the morphs and all 300+ of your personal morphs. PLEASE.

Quote - I tink a lot of ppl are missin' the big picture. (Well... is purdy big to me, anyway.)

The OP guesstimated that 97% of V4's don' have "proper" faces, whatever the hell that means. And the majority of replies I see are hung up on the "realism" aspect, pro or con.

I also see that the majority of ppl (I'll also use the 97% guesstimate 'cuz I don' wanna do the math) respondin' to this thread have been doin' this fer +/- 10 years. Now I ent perused the galleries too deeply fer some time, but I gotta wonder what the percentage of renders are done by Newbies? I highly doubt that 97% of the artists posting have the  experience, time, talent, budget, education, patience, desire, etc to make a image that make ya say "Oooohhhh! Is it Real Or Memorex?".

Point is; It's a hobby not Rocket Surgery, and it's art, not a medical textbook. If Pagan wants to do fairies, it ent nobody's call to say "WRONG!" 'cept fer Pagan, & if I wanna do Nekkid Vicky In A Temple With A Sammich, I gonna do it.

As long as you don't do naked fairies, because that's crossing the line..... :tt2:

Quote -
As long as you don't do naked fairies, because that's crossing the line..... :tt2:

Well there goes that render...

Looks good Mark-btw: Mark has done some really nice celebrity faces.

Quote - Just my opinion, but I think V4 has a head mesh conducive to yielding a realistic female face from a reasonable distance. I use the ++ morphs and about 300 self made morphs from an old version of Carrara to get the faces I come up with. As mentioned by others, it really helps to study female faces. There's a wealth of high definition photos out there on the web to look thru for celebrities now a days (see link). Make a copy of one or two in V4, and you can see where V4 needs help.

http://www.vettri.net/

V4's basic face is really a blank canvas. I know a lot of people complain about it, but trying to start with one that already has an ethnic design or personality built into it and work back is very hard. The V4 face shown here is no one in particular but about the best I can do right now with PP2012.

 

Good Luck

Ariah

Very good-and NOT at all V4 like!

Quote - Mark! Great V4 face!

 

V4 CAN look different and actually, her default face is pretty generic, so it's easily customizable. It just needs a little love ;)