Just as the title says, what do you want in an animation addon?

Before you answer, put your thinking caps on. Many of you have experience in other software and probably wish something from that program was in Poser. The addon frame work allows for things to be added to Poser, so what do you want to see added?

This isn't about adding features that are not supported, unless it can be done within the existing framework. Also keep in mind that not everyone has the newest version of Poser, but don't let the deter from Kinect ideas either.

This thread is not a debate on which way is the best, it is simply meant to outline ideas on what would help all of us do faster and better animations. A locked thread won't help any of us.

If you have any Python code ideas or snippets, feel free to post them here as well.

Pictures are worth a thousand words too. Some people may not know what is in other software animation wise.

I am curious to hear what all of you would want to add to make animation work easier.

Consider this the free version thread, we have a paid one going.

I have MotoBlocks from StarsAligned Studios, and it helps me make a walk look realistic. I have a hard time with the timing of movements like walking, and turning where the hips and feet need to flow properly to look realistic, and I find MotoBlocks helps me get the basic movements down...

The trouble is that it is so limited. I usually start with a 1500 frame, or better, rough draft with that tool, that I need to cut down to 200-400 frames in order to get the movements from point A to B past obsticals. Aiming is usually a problem.

I have tried the walk designer on several occasions, but have always been turned away frusterated with the results. The last time I made an attempt to use it was with PP2010, so maybe it works better now with PP2014? If not, that seams like a good place to rework.

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?thread_id=2884049

However I would just like to have a function that would automatically add another keyframe one frame higher then the I am currently working on to prevent over shoot such as you see in the lower of the two images.  This would only be applied to current level that I am working on either the currently selected body part / light / camera etc. 

I only say this because currently as I understand it the way Poser applies splines it is to ensure all points are included on the line which means over shoot.

If I had that it would be easy to increase the frame rate to 60 frames a second then render every other frame in final.  It would be a time saver instead of having to remember to click twice to anchor a point, which sometimes I forget to do.

I use the walk designer, and always have to tweak it to get it to look right. A lot of times I trim it down to one cycle after it runs, then go from there. It is a lot of work sometimes, and scripting it might require support files to be built on existing wireframes or some rather complex functions to figure it out from a zero'd pose. I have a few programs that make convincing walk cycles, but they are skelton dependant for the most part, I will have to disect one of the cycles and see how to apply it to Poser. As far as the foot issue, that is not that hard to address in a strait line. Corners can present an issue thou.

I agree that the graph editor could use some work. Over shooting is a problem, and since many rotations, and morphs, work best with a curve applied it is worth looking into as well. I will have to ponder on a limit to curve idea for a bit. There are examples of how to do it floating around, I will have to dig them up. Another thing that would be nice is an overlay function of selected graphs. And the ability to have more than one graph at the same time that is also layerable. I'm not talking about the layer options already there, I am talking about layering different graphs on any layer. Layer combining is an issue as well. There should be a way to easily do it.

Timing, slice, resize, and decimate keys are doable as well, decimate is already there but not so easy to use and can get very confusing on what you did and didn't do. There is no option of doing it by peaks, which usually means you destroyed the curve.

There is a lot of stuff in the other thread that lacks descriptions as to what they actually want. One is a bigger dope sheet. The window is resizable in many ways already. Bigger how? I take easier to read as font size, which can be a problem with most of Poser on a high resolution monitor. It really needs to be rearrangable as well.

Some of what is suggested is already there as well in one form or another. Yes it needs some polish, and hopefully that can be done with a plugin without to much fuss.

Some of the IK issues are hard to correct without using a different setup. Basically shutting it off in Poser and using a proxy/null system is the only way to make a better system.

Lots to think about, keep the ideas coming.

So, more detail, hmmm....? 8D 

This is a repost of f

eatures I'd like from Rosity (to RDNA and now back), with some editing and additions:

1. Poser's current 'all or nothing' coding for the IK system is trouble. A lot of newbies use it, switch it in the middle of an animation, and the results pretty much destroys all the work they did unitl that moment. If they didn't back up the file before, then they lose their work. The ability to toggle IK without damaging interpolation and keyframing would make it =far= more useful.

1a) If they got the IK toggle working properly, then they could add IK pinning. This would let you add a 'pin' to an IK chain, doing a runtime redesignation of just where a particular chain ends. What good is that? Example. You run a ragdoll sim, and set it up where the figure is thrown. Floppy doll, so what? You step through the sim, choose a point, stick a 'pin' into the right elbow. That 'pin' becomes the temporary end of the right arm IK chain; set a flag for stationary, and the ragdoll's motion modifies depending of the force of its action, around the stationary 'pin'. The body pivots, a few frames later you remove the 'pin' or disable the stationary flag, and let the sim run. What you wind up with is a body thrown, which pivots around the right elbow and off into another direction. Insert a stretched cylinder into the place where the elbow is being pinned and wa-la. You have a figure being thrown by something, who snags a pole and swings away to safety. Such a full IK/FK system would permit a lot of things to be done that people think require collision detection, and if the system permitted you to toggle IK anywhere on the dopesheet, you would have the tools to shape chaotic events into seemingly planned actions without destroying the work done before. This is a long overdue feature upgrade. (edit#2: Oh. And with IK pinning in this example, the right forearm and hand would not be affected in any way by whatever motion the figure IK chains imposed. So this could also permit you to set a hand pose (say around a weapon of some sort) and not have to worry about kinematics destroying it, forcing frame by frame correction of the issue).

1. Dopesheet improvements. The animation pallette (hence called dopesheet, as this is what the industry calls it) is hard to read, lacking in customization options, home to all of 2 forms of interpolation, and kind of touchy. There really needs to be an 'animation room' where the motion-specific features actually live. Keep it for the Poser Pro users if you must; most of us making animation have at least dual monitors, so having a discreet 'room' that we could open in a second monitor, leaving viewport, dials, camera and lighting controls on the other would be excellent. Being able to 'lock out' all but the highlighted bodypart from manipulation would solve a lot of issues people have with the dopesheet (a row of buttons with a top mounted 'clear all' that enables the whole pallette, and a button or box by each named animateable part, so that if you click it, only that part is adjustable. All others are locked, preventing accidents). Adjusting the size of the font in the dopesheet, so that you can clearly see what you are messing with (mostly on bodyparts listing window). More interpolation types.

1. Multiple Animation Graph Windows. This would be wonderful. Say 3 windows; you select a bodypart, and you get the X,Y,Z translations for that part. Each would have the pulldown list, so you could get into the morph controls and rotations, but being able to see how the position relates to the other involved axis', makes things easier to diagnose when you have a mesh tie itself into knots. Another option is to expand the current graph window and color code the XYZ timelines. Then you would still have the one window, but the X,Y, &Z lines would be, say, red, blue, green. Heck, you could also make it so that the colors used are user definable in the setup options; that would cover anyone with issues with certain colors.

3a) Possibly combining the dopesheet and graph editor. You start with the dopesheet, choose a bodypart, then toggle over to the graph (This one is a 'maybe'. If we got better dopesheet function and a more capable graph, it might be best to keep them separate).

1. A quaterion correction toggle. This is a nifty thing that Messiah has. Quats do not run from 0 to 360 degrees; they run -180 to +180 degrees (the traditional sine wave). THE most common cause of animation chaos is when you exceed those values. The algorithm tries to correct by interpolating to the nearest value (and there is no automatic order to that; the algorithm picks the -closest- value, not the most logical value). Depending on the keyframes, this might cause a limb to twist around itself multiple times to reach a point the algorithm accepts is proper. The toggle in Messiah looks at the quaterion values, and resets them to the proper numerical range (at least so long as you don't try and force the interpolation curve back with keyframes. That can create more damage than good). It's not a one size fit all solution, but it does fix about 80% of the mesh crunches with one click of a button.

2. A clamping function. Another issue is that there is no way to restrict the spline curves. One missplaced keyframe and a tame, simple curve that never strays above or below say .8 in value suddenly shoots to 20 or more. And if you do it just wrong, there can be multiples. A way to set a clamp value on the graph editor, so that your splines are forced to remain within your set limits would be valuable. Particularly when dealing with mocap data that doesn't quite behave itself. This would also cut down the need to use break splines to control spline curves.

1. The option to bake cloth sims to PLA (point level animation) data. Poser's cloth engine is amazing, flexible, and can and has produced better results than MAXON's current offering. If we could bake a successful sim, that would make it FAAAAAAAAR easier and faster to correct errors in uninvolved body parts. And if the saving of that data were possible, it would open up a =potential= area in the marketplace. The dataset could be sold with or as an add on to a certain clothing object, any you wouldn't need to rerun the sim, and the user would get a nice, swishy dress on their figure.

2. A truly non-linear motion mixer, a la AniMATE. At one time there was supposed to be a version for Poser. Didn't happen. So that feature is one sorely needed.

3. A properly implemented ragdoll module for Bullet, if one could be coded to produce acceptable results with the convex hull collision system.

4. A system to allow you to design and designate a motion as cyclical, making creating walks and other repetetive motions easier.

5. Never used iclone, so no idea about its features.....  

@Dale B when was the last time you tried #1?  Using the latest version PP2014GD I can now turn on and off IK place the foot at different locations and it mostly works as you would expect.  There is a small amount of movement but nothing that can not be fixed.  When you now turn off the IK for a foot or hand it creates key frames in the joints that were/are affected by the movement.  Just beaware that it is a forward only function, that is do not uncheck the IK then go to a point before that and try to turn on an IK in a different part.  Such as IK is on for the Feet do not turn it off at frame 80 and trying to go to frame 40 and turn on IK for the Hand, it appears to freak out the un-IK foot.  The Positive is that you now have graphs that you can fix re-align.

This also takes care of my wish to be able to tweek the IK and being able to see the graph.  Now as a further improvement would be able to see the graph without having to lock the movements in place.

More functions/features for the graph would be the ability to select and delete multiple keyframes.  That way you can hand clean BVH files by looking at the changes and making a human decision as to what is and is not important.  Along the same line it would be nice to be able to see multiple layers on the same graph so that if I was working on the xTran on the arm I could look at say the BVH layer and a new layer so that I could hand place key frames to try to match the key aspects to reduce clutter.  One other nice to have feature would be ablt to have three lines on the graph to represent the x,y,z trans or twist of a joint.  They could be Red Green and Blue much like the gimble ball.

 I haven't gotten the game designer upgrade yet, so this is the first I've heard of this. Sounds like a partial solution. But only partial. Since Poser is geared for figure manipulation, it =needs= a full IK/FK system implemented.

Look like there's the additional reason aside from decimatin and figure combining I need to just-er, explain the upgrade....

 Being in the void between retiring medically from your job and actually getting your retirement check scrapes big time.....

Yes indeed one can CAREFULLY reposition the feet after an IK switch off & on and not have major problems.
as long as you only create animations of people basicly remaining
Immobile.

However even going forward in time if your actors entire body has to move a major distance along the Z axis
( leap over a ditch for example), your IK influence that you tried to deactivate 100 frames before will magically re assert its influence and pull the actors feet towards the staring point.

"Some of the IK issues are hard to correct without using a different setup."

Is not IK essentially a  bodypart constraint system??

Did not SM recently implement "animated constraints" ??

why is it ,in poser pro, you can now animate the influence of a ball pinned to an actors left hand and "switch it off" as he tosses it 10 feet in the air and "switch it back on" as he catches it in his right
 hand??
I am no programmer for certain , but it seems to me the foundation for a true IK switcher  is already there.

"Pictures are worth a thousand words too. Some people may not know what is in other software animation wise."

the attached pic is an example of how C4D dopesheet lets me filter
out the other 973 scene elements and view the keys of just one bobypart.

Sorry but that picture shows a partial list of what appears to be all the objects called Object(2) so there are two objects in the scene.  So it looks like you scroll up and down and pick the item to work on.  Not much different then Poser where you select the item and work on it in the graph.  In fact using Poser I can then select each element for the body part and see what the motions it is going to make look like on the graph.  Looking at the above image shows me a bunch of yellow blocks that may or may not do anything to the motion of the part selected.  They sure do not tell any thing about what the motion is going to look like.

If you have the latest version (it is in PP2014GD for sure) and probably in the SR4 for PP2014 and 10 then the IK issue you speak above is no longer valid.  In the past if you did IK movements and turned off the IK chain there was nothing in the dope sheet or graphs to show anything except the movement of the hip or other body part that was moved.  Now when you turn off IK the joints that are affected by the movements now have keyframes created to allow you to make corrections and fine tune them etc.  The other aspect of this is that now I can have Andy jump up and down for the first 60 frames turn of IK move him to another location turn on IK again and then make him do more jumping.  Just do not try and go back and turn IK in a section that already has it turned on and off. it will result in the same joint trying to do two different things at the same time, not possible in the real world either.

Finally ,for those  here not familiar with this term "nonlinear motion mixer"
see what DAZ studio was doing 5 YEARS ago with their system
and compare that to what posers "layer system" can do in 2014
and the $200 Iclone is even more advanced

http://vimeo.com/4726306

I can not go back and reedit a prior post however I was wrong when I said "More functions/features for the graph would be the ability to select and delete multiple keyframes"  I was not selecting the keyframes correctly.  You can delete multiple frames in the graph.  I still stand by my statement that a human should be looking at the reductions to make intelligent choices that a machine can not.  Rducing by 50% is nice but that still leaves way too may points to go and make changes on a large scale. 

Wrong!!!

"object2" refers to the second iteration of the C4D object manager
that I opened in addition to the one already opened by default in my layout
in a moder animation program on can open multiple version of a pallet and drag object& Data between them

"So it looks like you scroll up and down and pick the item to work on. '

Err.... no the pic shows only Dork's right arm with its ZXY channels
i have already stated poser graph editor filters out all but the selected part but what about the crowded item packed dope sheet??

"Looking at the above image shows me a bunch of yellow blocks that may or may not do anything to the motion of the part selected.  They sure do not tell any thing about what the motion is going to look like."

Uhhmm..those yellow blocks are showing my keys in key view mode showing how many hip movement keys are packed in with a mocap file attached is what you would see in Spline mode.
 

Totally agree with wolf, iClone is indeed a perfect example of what animation tools ought to be in Poser by now.  Poser is a "Figure Animation Tool", or rather, supposed to be.  It's easy for people to debate this stuff but things like this have to be experienced first-hand to truly appreciate the power they give the animator and the time it saves.

Poser only fits the description of "Figure Animation Tool" if you happen to wake up after sleeping since 1995.  Take a look at the walk designer from Poser 3 and compare it to Poser 10.  It was cool and acceptable in Poser 3, but for that same system to still be doing the rounds in Poser 10 after all this time and all those releases, is hilarious (and infuriating if you fancy your hand at animation).

which of those two is more editable???

How dare you crosspost with me :biggrin:

"Rducing by 50% is nice but that still leaves way too may points to go and make changes on a large scale. "

we are not limited to 50%

I could have reduce only to the major keyframes had i wanted

as I said.."modern program tools" Like Iclone & Daz aniMate

wake up SM!!

"

we are not limited to 50%

I could have reduce only to the major keyframes had i wanted"

But why would you?  That brings it the point of being Pose to Pose animation which you stated in another thread is something that no one does.  In fact why reduce the amount of data in the first place?

If Pumeco is correct in that this saves time please explain how.  It seems to me that you are grabbing a BVH file or Animate Block or what every term you want to call it, bringing it in making major changes to the layout (down to point of making it Pose to pose) then appling it to a figure.  Why not just apply a couple of poses and be done with it?

Seems like a lot of work to make some one else's motion file fit your project.

Just out of curioisty, will CD4 Strip a channel of keys to match the curve with the least amount of keys? That wouldn't be a percentage, it would have to be based on the curve of the original.

I have not used CD4 in ages... It appears that it does, but I am not sure.

If Pumeco is correct in that this saves time please explain how."

pay close attention:

 There is a Difference between creating pose to pose animation from scratch using the "direct manipulation tool" (Sheesh!!)

...and  the editing of a "clean" sparse mocap file made possible by a key reducer function.

In the above image ""Jabba" is hand gesturing as he ridicules Luke Skywakers attempt to use an old jedi mind trick on him
but at frame 55 his hand enters his torso.

This is an easy fix as one merely grabs the key at frame 55 and pulls it down
smoothly flattening the frames preceding& following frame 55 until his hand
stops short of his belly but not adversely affecting the overall gesturing motions of his hand.

so what happens when that "sexy strut" that looks great on a default V4 is applied to your custom curvy hipped morphed V4?
well this very same thing you see with "Jabba's" huge belly.....
bodys part intersect.
( her hands pass through her hips!!)

"www.youtube.com/watch?v=xECglepATIg&feature=youtu.be

attached is a link to the final project.  Most of the motions were from the Mellon Carinega(sp) BVH project, via trubones website. ......and not a lot of effort was made to fine tune any of it."

Not trying to be harsh honeslty, but Perhaps you now understand why your son or whomever
did not make the effort to "fine" tune any of those canned mocap files he used resulting in those frankly bad "as is" animations.

No key reducer in poser to simplify spline curves
like the one in my first example.
and( like most poser users) ,no experience in fixing all of the other problems created by altering spline curves populated with keys on EVERY FRAME.......

....class dismissed.

"Just out of curioisty, will CD4 Strip a channel of keys to match the curve with the least amount of keys? That wouldn't be a percentage, it would have to be based on the curve of the original."

Hi if I am understanding your question correctly
the answer is; yes
but the reducer dialog box does ask for a percentage
although it is faithfully maintaining the original shape of the spline,linear constant or step interpolated curve.
 

Just had a chuckle watching your highly polished videos on Youtube, and can see your need for as many tools as you can get and will leave it at that.

So is putting in 6 keyframes really that hard that you need to take a ~120 frame BVH type file reduce to down to the 6 so that you can correct the poke thur problem?  My question was not the general why someone would want to reduce keyframes I already know that part, my question was directed at you and your specific workflow since you have stated that no one does Pose to Pose animation.  Also a FYI using layers in Poser I can put a negative curve of a couple of keyframes to pull the hand back out without having to move a single point on the orignal BVH layer.

But aside from that little detail where are you going to find the BVH (or whatever you want to call them) files that you want to use your reducer on?  Looking at several of the marketplaces there is not a great deal of ready to use files.  And even if you have some pre-built files they are someone else's idea of what they wanted the motion to be.  To try and bring them into your own story and make them match up and seem like they belong together seems like a lot more effort then doing it your self in the first place.

Justs takes a little time to find out what your tools can do.

"Just had a chuckle watching your highly polished videos on Youtube, and can see your need for as many tools as you can get and will leave it at that."

Always can appreciate input from alleged "Animators" who slam my work& tutorials or hint that my IMDB listing is somehow  false ,but have NOTHING online to show they have ever been paid to animate anything
LOL!!...  but we will leave it at that,

"But aside from that little detail where are you going to find the BVH (or whatever you want to call them) files that you want to use your reducer on?  Looking at several of the marketplaces there is not a great deal of ready to use files."

Agreed but the need for key reduction originated in pro work flows that used alot of human mocap (FILM & TV)

Now that poser pro supports Kinect as a motion capture option I would imagine that poser pro users might find this feature useful  in tweaking their own human kinect mocap.

But seriously mate
,like the one started by DaleB, this is a wishlist thread for poser animation features

You clearly are of the opinion that poser's animation tools are on par with DAZ's nonlinear system and Iclone's advanced motion system with no real need for new tools.

Great ..so why are you in these threads??

What a great question.  Why am I here?  I am here to request features for Poser that will help the greatest number of modern Poser users that is also keeping in mind the truly professional users that relay on the Poser interface in their Day to Day use.  I am thinking about companies like Rooster Teeth and their shows Red vs. Blue and RWBY. 

Also I work in the Media department at the local college providing technical support for Television Production, Movie making, Audio recording, Green Screen productions and adding in Motion Capture with an Optitrak system.  I have been using Poser since version 5 (about 12 years) as can be seen in my signature block.  We use Adobe CS6 Premier, After Effects, Audition, and several others in the package, also Pro Tools 11 audio editing package, Poser Pro 2014.  We have in the past used older versions of Pro Tools and Final Cut for the Mac OSX.  I work very closely with the Instructors and give them training in the hardware and software we use in our studio.  We are currently using Poser in the making of virtual studio set props to be used in the Green Screen portion of our Television switcher.  It is also be written up to be part of classes in the movie making and how to use it in special effects and CG graphics.

So given my background I feel that gives me a bit of knowledge in what is and is not considered good production value.  Feel free to disagree if you wish, does not brother me in the slightest.

So back to the original question:  Given that the current user interface is used by professional companies and making radical changes will throw their whole workflow out the window.  That would be a big Plus for Smith Micro don’t you think?  Also consider that the BVH key reduction is also available as a python script from Ockham called reducer.  It may need to be updated to the current version and it would be nice if Smith Micro included it in the newest version, however there is that solution.  There is also the solution I posted above about using Layers to pull the points where ever they need to go. 

The posting of things like the above Layers solution is why I am here.  To help make sure people that read this thread do not come away with the false impression that just because one person cannot do something does not mean that it cannot be done.  Sometimes you have to think outside the box of how things are done by the rest and develop your own solution.

Wolf, just because someone has nothing online does not mean that they have not animated anything. I don't think I have ever put much of anything online animation wise, but to say I never animated anything would be wrong. (I don't think I have ever looked at you online tutorials thou. lol.  And I don't do online portfolios.)

As far as which way things are animated, that literally depends on the person doing it. I will still ruff out animations on keyframes and then go back and clean them up. I have been doing it that way for years. There is nothing wrong with doing it that way.

I am not one to import a canned bvh and use that. That is not going to move the way I want something to move, it is the way someone else wanted it to move or is just a disaster as soon as it is imported. It usually takes me longer to correct a bvh than it does to make a new one, but that is just me I guess. Doesn;t matter what program I am using either.

Thanks for posting the examples. That gives me a better idea of what you are looking for. Looking at it one way will leave to much out of it. Any Addon made has to encompass multiple ways/workflows of animating.

I have used Richards trick as well, but that can get a tad confusing to edit later depending on the number of layers affecting it and if you remembered to name them accordingly. Reducing it to one layer can be an issue in Poser, but it can be done. There needs to be an easier way to do that as well.

One thing all of us need to get out in the open, is to agree to disagree. The way I do it may not be the way you do it. But that does not make either wrong, in any way. In the end it either looks right, or it doesn't.

"As far as which way things are animated, that literally depends on the person doing it. I will still ruff out animations on keyframes and then go back and clean them up. I have been doing it that way for years. There is nothing wrong with doing it that way."

Hi that is the way  I and Most people create key frame animation, That roughing out is often referred to as "blocking"
where you get the major motions keyframed and then animate "secondary" motions such as subtle head,finger movements etc, on top of that...
A build as you go approach

"Thanks for posting the examples. That gives me a better idea of what you are looking for."

yes I posted them because you ,as the OP, specifically asked to see examples of features in other programs

"Looking at it one way will leave to much out of it. Any Addon made has to encompass multiple ways/workflows of animating."
 
Agreed!! As much as I love the nonlinear system of DAZ" aniMate+, I still ultimately end up exporting the comped motion as an animated pose file(pz2) and making final tweaks in POSER before applying it in C4D to be rendered as Daz studio has no"usable" spline graph editor IMHO,
and of course DAZ has no option for Ragdoll Simulations either so I am still dependent on both programs ATM.