I started this hobby in 2006, and have barely scratched the surface of what's possible with either DS or Poser.  And I know nothing about modeling.

As someone who still considers themselves a relative newbie, I find myself increasingly frustrated with the ongoing debates over the quality and support for new figure meshes.  The more I read, the more I regret having gotten into this hobby in the first place.  I keep wondering why I even bother trying to learn new skills when there's no guarantee the content I want to use will be supported.

I understand V4 is ancient tech.  From my perspective, on the surface, Genesis looks like a viable alternative, but everything I've read by more experienced users and content creators has said it's worse than V4.  Understanding why has been like trying to read Greek.

I also understand Dawn was supposed to be the ideal replacement for V4.  Again, more experienced users concluded she was all hype, and she's received minimal support from content creators.

I feel stuck in the middle of a tug of war between my desire to use new tech, and a community who says the new tech sucks.  Meanwhile, vendors continue creating content for V4.

Last October, I built a new PC with parts specifically chosen for the primary task of rendering 3D art.  Is there any point in my continuing to use it for that purpose, or has the divide between the tech and community support widened too much to bother anymore?  I have much more enjoyable interests to spend my free time on that don't give me headaches.

You don't have to listen to what people say (including me, of course). ;) Their opinions are just that: opinions.

If you want to learn new skills, listen to the people who have the most to teach. Bagginsbill, for one. (He's one of the few consistently making statements that are actually, also, simple fact.)

If you've concluded that Genesis is worse than V4, you've been reading only half the story. Same with Dawn. Or any figure, including the Poser natives.

The loudest voices aren't necessarily more right. Just louder. These people also have a lot of things to teach in their areas of knowledge. But that doesn't mean you must accept their opinions about everything. 

Take everything you hear with a grain of salt. See for yourself. Don't let other people dictate what you do. Experiment like wild.

Right now, 3d artists have more choice and more alternatives than we've ever had before. The market split may not be so great for content creators trying to make a living because they have to come up with more innovative ways to reach customers. But for the end user, these are exciting times. 

From being able to choose to render almost everything in Daz Studio OR Poser to using external renderers, like Lux (via Pose2Lux or Reality) and Octane, to having new tools in the latest iteration of the posing software, we've really got a LOT of tools at our disposal.

I'm dishearted at the divides in the community too. You are not alone in frustration. I see the same forum posts. All the bickering and posturing sees to do a good job at chasing away those of us who just want make a good image.

So far the best way I found to deal with experts is to take their advice with a grain of salt. Some of it is opinon anyway. I explore the figures myself. I admit, it is a lot easier if the stuff is free. Sometime I succeed, sometime I don't. Just don't stop trying to grow as an artist.

As for content creators, they make stuff that sells. Unfortunately, creators usually end up making the same things over and over again. I think my Victoria 4 has about 20 bikinis. Granted I was the one who bought it for her. However, I have not been able to tow truck for her to drive.

Recently, I used PhilC's Wardrobe Wizard to convert some of Victoria 4's clothes to the other figures. Its not perfect, but it does expand those figures.

I hope you continue with 3D.

Quote - I'm dishearted at the divides in the community too. You are not alone in frustration. I see the same forum posts. All the bickering and posturing sees to do a good job at chasing away those of us who just want make a good image.

I do think this is a fundamental weakness with the community. Not the bickering per se because you'll get that anywhere. It's human nature. But with the topics we choose to emphasize. There isn't nearly as much here about making better renders, as opposed to making better figures. (It's there, but often requires a lot of digging in the forum archives). It's much more of a Poser modelling forum than a Poser rendering forum. If it were a Poser rendering forum, we'd hear a lot more from users like Caisson, who is a rendering god, if there ever were one. :)

But I guess people who are most skilled at rendering spend more time doing that than arguing in forums. :)  But it would be nice if there were a dedicated and active rendering forum, where the end result -- the final render (and postworking techniques, as well) was the main point of emphasis.

I agree with your other points, as well.

Quote - I hope you continue with 3D.

Me, too.

Strangely I have never looked at things in this way. It’s not about “tech” for me so much as it is about art. To be honest, I use what works, I do not care about the tech behind a particular model. The only time I upgrade my programs is when some changes or new “tech” truly makes it worth my time to upgrade. And Vue is usually the program upgraded before any others.

As far as figures go, I use what I feel like or what I need to, and I do not give a rat’s butt about why I should or should not use a specific model according to those “in the know.” Opinions are like (oh you know) and everybody is entitled to theirs.

Maybe instead of being guided by other people’s opinions, you should just do what you do with 3D art because you enjoy it. Who really cares about who says this or thinks that? In the end, all that really matters is your enjoyment of your hobby.

Quote - It’s not about “tech” for me so much as it is about art.

Can't have one without the other.  The software and content we use are the "tech" behind our art.

Quote - Maybe instead of being guided by other people’s opinions, you should just do what you do with 3D art because you enjoy it.

I would love to, but I rely on content creators to support the tech I want to use.  That's why I switched from DAZ to Poser four years ago - larger community support.

I'm actually amazed at how good the figures for Poser are. I know none of them are perfect, but that is where your craft comes in. You use your experience and learning to make them better. I like V4 quite a bit, and enjoy tweaking her, making her older or younger, fatter or thinner...all those morphs are great. And Poser! I am continually amazed at what it can do, even as I struggle up the (sometimes steep) learning curve. And how inexpensive it is, especially when you grab it on sale! And look--this forum has its share of opinionated jerks, a handful of loud mouths, but mostly I see knowledgable people happy to give their solutions to the often convoluted problems we run into. Most of them are even patient. When I am too frustrated about the things I need to learn (I havent tried the Wardrobe Wizard yet, and have only a rank beginner's understanding of the Material Room) I know I can turn to this forum and find sympathetic people. Or sometimes unsympathetic people, who slap me for my ignorance, but still give me guidance. What we do here is great. Kudos to the overworked moderators, and thanks to all the lively, helpful people here....

Stay cool, be tolerant, learn...

Personally, it doesn't matter to me what figure has what support.  With tweaking in different morphs, using the morph brush and bashing one figure's clothing/props onto others, I have a wide array of things I can use- not just with V4, but M4, Tyler, Genesis, Genesis 2, Anastasia, Dawn, and the others out there that are available.

For me, it's about learning what works for you; using what you have, learning how to work things and kit bash (transfering things here and there between figures) and work around what you can't fix.  I've never had the converters, all the transfers over are from morphs and morph brush in Poser.

The Genesis figures work fine and have very natural shapes in Poser and there is more and more content coming out. Try them yourself and you'll see. They bend and take posing very smoothly.

Mike

Quote - I would love to, but I rely on content creators to support the tech I want to use.  That's why I switched from DAZ to Poser four years ago - larger community support.

If you've got some background in using DS -- even from four years ago -- then using it now shouldn't create such a barrier.

There's no rule that says you can't use both Poser and Daz Studio, or that you can't use content from both. Not everything is compatible with both softwares, but if you use both, you are pretty much covered, and adding DS to your repertoire again, fortunately, costs nothing but your time, time that I think is worth expending.

(I regularly render Genesis 1 and 2 content in Poser. It's not THE simplest thing to do, and there are a couple of issues with it, but it's not exactly challenging either.)

I've used Dawn in images (my "primary" content is an envirodome)

I will have to dispute this statement

"fortunately, costs nothing but your time, time that I think is worth expending."

Time the most precious thing in the universe it's what everyone else is trying to buy from you

and experimenting with DAZ delivery ware is a giant time suck

should you learn to ignore opinion in re: preferences and absorb only facts, it becomes smooth sailing IMVHO.

Quote - I understand V4 is ancient tech.  From my perspective, on the surface, Genesis looks like a viable alternative, but everything I've read by more experienced users and content creators has said it's worse than V4.  Understanding why has been like trying to read Greek.

I invented MAT poses. Genesis 2 rocks :) Je ne parlez-pas Greek.

The only real issue with the various Genesis characters is that DAZ now thinks they have to create a different UV layout for each new character. My advice is to find out which of the various characters has textures made for it that you like, and stick with that (I'm partial to the texture that came with Giselle 6, so that's all I use).

The morphing/shaping capabilities are amazing, and the bending is very good. The other main problem is that geografting doesn't work very well in Poser, so if you need anatomically-correct characters, you'll have to render (I use a custom realtime skin shader so as to avoid having to render, so it's rather annoying for those times when I do need more, um, 'detail' on my characters).

Yes you do have to have the tech for the 3D art world to move on but new tech does not mean better tech or that old tech is obsolete.  The question is does the figure you use provide the means to reach your goals, which is often why people will use different figures because their goals are different.

Bickering happens in all hobbies to a greater or less degree and I have played with a few hobbies over my long life to know that this is true.  The bickering comes when people try and impose their view on others.  The this "figure/software/game engine is the greatest and if you cannot understand that you are thick and missing out" is the one that pushes my buttons but again different people will have different things that excite or annoy them.

I have stuck with one figure on the whole because it does what I need and I have concentrated my time on trying to get the best from that figure.  I now understand more about the material room than I did a few years ago and I put that to good use.

Yes the support of vendors is improtant to some degree but some of the gems that BB has added in these forums have really pushed my understanding and enjoyment of the hobby and that is improtant for it proves that the forums are very much a two sided coin.

Again each indivdual will see the glass half full or half empty, some will not see that glass at all.  Which one you decide to take is up to you as there is no right or wrong answer, but the choice does affect the enjoyment you get in return.

oh.  mistook bashing for kitbashing.

kitbashing topic would have been interesting

Nyghtfall, just enjoy your new kit, who gives a crap about what figure you used to do your thing?

I agree the whole figure-bashing thing is getting old but at least when I look at comments for gallery images, I've never seen a single person even hint that the artist should have used another figure instead.  Thankfully this nonsense is something that has kept away from gallery comments and stuff like that, and I'm guessing the reason is that everyone knows that if they were to post such a comment, they'd make themselves look like an absolute idiot.  I think the best thing to do is put your finger up to it and carry one as you were.  If I were creating images right now, I'd be using Roxie, and she's neither V4 or Genesis. 

It goes without saying that I couldn't care less that she's neither V4 or Genesis.

I look at there gallery ,to see what the one talking has done.

On this forum V4 is most popular.

HW3D forums Dawns most popular.

DAZ forums V6 is most popular.

CGTalk forums neather DAZ Poser are popular .

The only way to sort opinion from fact is to learn some of the technical stuff.  This doesn't mean you have to actually model, rig/weight map, or paint your own stuff, but reading and watching tutorials on this stuff will increase understanding.

When reading comments in forums, you should always consider the source.

Some very vocal posters in most threads regarding various figures, are themselves primarily Daz vendors, so obviously they will be biased against anything non-Daz. Likewise, if you go to the HW forums, you will find nothing but biased praise of their figures. (Strangely tho, you won't find any bashing of other companies figures.. go figure huh)

Always try things yourself first, and make up your own opinion. What works for others, might not work for you, and vice-versa. I have myself given up using Genesis 2 in Poser, but I would never discourage anyone from trying it!

Quote - When reading comments in forums, you should always consider the source.

Some very vocal posters in most threads regarding various figures, are themselves primarily Daz vendors, so obviously they will be biased against anything non-Daz.

There are DAZ vendors that still sell items for V4 and Poser. There's also those that still make scenes and shaders that are native to Poser software as well. The DAZ PA that wrote a guide on how to convert genesis to a CR2 so it works in Poser converted a-DS native set of underwater lights and cameras that's currently on sale as well... which was requested by Poser users that shop at DAZ.

I think it's this incorrect presumption that causes a lot of the arguments and discord and chased a lot of people away from the forums. I certainly don't think this comment helps the OP when someone decides to launch attacks from a "bashing making me regret 3D" thread.

The problem I've seen over the years is that someone would pose a question on this forum on how to set up Genesis or they're having some type of issue, and instead of someone answering it, there's a chorus of "DAZ sucks" posts and then the arguments begin. It was and still is interesting to see people make their fellow Poser users feel unwelcome because they wanted to try a particular figure, and we're not just talking about Genesis. Quite a few members left and are over at Hivewire when Dawn was released due to arguments over that figure as well. And they do bash DAZ products when given an opportunity, though you'll see LisaB step in to remind them what Hivewire is trying to do, which diffuses the arguments... since both groups have a shared interest in what that company does.

Sometimes there would be bits of useful information in threads that would help Poser users, but it gets lost by derailing, personal attacks, leading to the thread being locked and the info lost. Also posts with misinformation would grow for days without moderation and that ended up being the information people have to work with, which ends up confusing them or leaving them no place really ask a question. 

Quote - Always try things yourself first, and make up your own opinion. What works for others, might not work for you, and vice-versa. 

Now that I can agree on.

To the OP:

Also, I can suggest if you have any questions you can post in the "New Users" forum at DAZ to see whether that works for you or not. That forum is for people trying to get started and is monitored by mods so if you ask a question and someone adds an opinion instead of helping you, that comment is deleted and the poster warned. This site needs something like that as all types of information is being lost or needs to be constantly repeated due to bashing and fighting.

I haven't seen any bashing or fighting going on lately. If there has been then it hasn't been brought to my attention recently. 

Quote - Maybe instead of being guided by other people’s opinions, you should just do what you do with 3D art because you enjoy it. Who really cares about who says this or thinks that? In the end, all that really matters is your enjoyment of your hobby.

:thumbupboth:

One persons "Figure Bashing" is another person's "Contructive Criticism ".  People here are going to always argue over the merits of a figure - it's human nature. 

People in the forums ask questions about figures and those of us who use them will chime in (hopefully based on their experiences). 

This is a "marketplace of ideas" and there will certainly be heated discussions - it beats the alternative - a forum that does not allow constructive criticism is a dead forum - See Daz or the Hivewire forums for some examples of that.

@ Male_M3dia:

I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say. This isn't about Daz vs Poser. This is about Figures, regardless of what platform you use, and it is my observation that some vendors like to elevate their figure of choice, while downgrading others, and stating their opinion as fact as to why their figure is better. I am simply pointing out that it doesn't hurt to look at the source before you consider their opinion. And being able to seperate opinions from fact helps too.

there's 2 types of threads

1 questions looking for facts

How to do this or that.find something.

2.personal opinions

That's all based on personal opinions.

If you can't handle that everone does not have the same philosophy as you.

Well ,your going to have a difficult time in life and on forums.

Quote - @ Male_M3dia:

I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say. This isn't about Daz vs Poser. This is about Figures, regardless of what platform you use, and it is my observation that some vendors like to elevate their figure of choice, while downgrading others, and stating their opinion as fact as to why their figure is better. I am simply pointing out that it doesn't hurt to look at the source before you consider their opinion. And being able to seperate opinions from fact helps too.

I don't think I misunderstood, because people assume that if a vendor answers a question regarding a figure, they're trying to sell a figure rather than their actual experience. The thing is, a lot of those same vendors sold Gen4 products to both Poser and DAZ customers for years and sold products on multiple sites. I sold products both on rendo and Poseraddicts before going to DAZ. I bought copies of Poser starting at 7 as well as buying the advance versions of DAZ Studio even before I started selling anything. So some of the vendors, especially the ones that make custom characters, had experience with working with mesh, making content, packaging etc. 

However, for a lot of people it was more an emotional issue, so it didn't matter what people were saying, it was simply a "Us vs Them" situation. And a lot of people chose to believe people that hadn't made one item, moved one vertex, or used the figure over someone who had simply because they were considered "a poser user". So when people said "consider the source", they really meant those who were a "poser user", whether they actually knew what they were talking about or not.

That's why there's so much bad information out there and users can't find the info they need now.

Quote - I keep wondering why I even bother trying to learn new skills when there's no guarantee the content I want to use will be supported.

Support for characters has always been a crap shoot.

Not sure how learning new skills would be tied to a character or content. Programs support technology, characters can just use it.

Quote - I understand V4 is ancient tech.  From my perspective, on the surface, Genesis looks like a viable alternative, but everything I've read by more experienced users and content creators has said it's worse than V4.  Understanding why has been like trying to read Greek.

Last time I checked, all Poser/Daz characters are wireframes (or control cages). Yes there have been some new things added that can be applied to rigging, etc. But in reality not much has really changed under the hood so to speak. Genesis is not that old of a system, and has shown good progress. It can do a few things that V4 could never do. Such as the Genesis HD series, etc. If you see merit in Genesis, there must be for you. So feel free to substitute others realities for you own.

Quote - I also understand Dawn was supposed to be the ideal replacement for V4.

Seems to be part of the crap shoot doesn't it. I was under the impression that Dawn was going to be a character that worked in Studio and Poser with very similar results. I do not use Studio much, but Dawn appears to work more or less the same in both programs.

Quote - I feel stuck in the middle of a tug of war between my desire to use new tech, and a community who says the new tech sucks.  Meanwhile, vendors continue creating content for V4.

Load up an old character (V1, Posette, etc) and do a few renders, then judge for yourself is there are any imrovements or shortcomings in newer characters ot technology. Your opinion on it is more relavant to you, than anyone elses. It is your art, no someones that has a different opinion than you.

Vendors build for a few reasons, but top of the list is going to be what sells. Yes, what they are used to has a little to do with it. But in the end if it does not sell, that says a lot about the choice in what character to build for and the user base that actualy wants content for it. When V4 stuff stops selling, support will fall off. It seems to me that has not happened yet.

Quote - Is there any point in my continuing to use it for that purpose, or has the divide between the tech and community support widened too much to bother anymore?  I have much more enjoyable interests to spend my free time on that don't give me headaches.

I am not sure how anyone can answer that for you. If you have other interests that are far less stressful I would think you would already be doing that. I don't really see a divide between the users and the tech the same way as others might thou. If I need something for a render that I do not have I usually just make or correct it myself. Even thou Poser has had many things added to it over the years, it is still a text based system that doesn't really hide anything under the hood.

I still primarily use modified versions of V3. Yes I have Antonia, Cynthia, Kez, Koshini, Michelle, Miki 1-4, etc, etc, but even thou I have all of those I didn't really want to replace an entire V3 wardrobe for V4, then V5, then V6, etc.  When the next big character comes out (V7?) I doubt I will by a wardrobe for that one either. You don't  outgrow virtual clothes, and you can give them to other characters.

If you keep doing 3D art, chances are good that you will learn more and more about the internals of it. How far you go is entirely up to you. If you get to the point that you basically mastered a program, content support will be a moot point. You will have an entire wardrobe of clothes to use on any character you choose.

Do what you enjoy doing, and don't let anyone else tell you how much you enjoy it, or what to use.

My understanding of the purpose behind the release of each new generation of figures was to improve on the one before it.  Yet, everything I've read about Genesis and Dawn claim both figures proved to be a step back in terms of what artists can do with them. Whether it's Genesis's comparitively low poly count, or Dawn's jaw line, both systems have been reported to be inferior to previous figures.

As an artist specializing in Horror scenes, all I care about is whether whatever figure I'm using can be realistically put into what might be considered some rather extreme poses, and for whatever content I'm using to support those poses.  For example, I might want to have V6 wearing a long-sleeve shirt while reaching up over her head to clutch a rope she's being hanged with.  I need to know I'll be able to put her in such a pose without either the figure or clothing mesh tearing.

I own several morph packs designed to fix most of V4's flaws and give her a touch of realism, but have yet to see anything similar released for Dawn or Genesis.  It's as if V4 was the last great figure released, and no one wants to touch the new stuff.

I'm not concerned about what anyone might think of me for using one figure or another.  I'm concerned about the ongoing lack of support for new technology.

Quote - I own several morph packs designed to fix most of V4's flaws and give her a touch of realism, but have yet to see anything similar released for Dawn or Genesis.  It's as if V4 was the last great figure released, and no one wants to touch the new stuff.

I'm not concerned about what anyone might think of me for using one figure or another.  I'm concerned about the ongoing lack of support for new technology.

Hivewire is working on Dawn's SR2 even as we speak.

Quote - I own several morph packs designed to fix most of V4's flaws and give her a touch of realism, but have yet to see anything similar released for Dawn or Genesis.  It's as if V4 was the last great figure released, and no one wants to touch the new stuff.

I guess you don't spend much time at Daz's website then. There have been tons of fixes and addons for Genesis and Genesis 2. Tons.

Hell, before the big sale on Gen4 stuff over there, I didn't know there had been a V4 and M4 with bend fixes released in the form of a new CR2 (and they've been out for ages). I didn't bother with the V4 version, but the M4 one is a godsend. (Same vendor did Genesis, as well.) It surprises me at times what I find in the MPs when I look -- here and at Daz and RDNA.

For smoothing the bends in extreme poses, I find Poser's morph brush to be superior to any injected fixes, though. Definitely worth using. In my opinion. ;)

Quote - My understanding of the purpose behind the release of each new generation of figures was to improve on the one before it.  Yet, everything I've read about Genesis and Dawn claim both figures proved to be a step back in terms of what artists can do with them. Whether it's Genesis's comparitively low poly count, or Dawn's jaw line, both systems have been reported to be inferior to previous figures.

As an artist specializing in Horror scenes, all I care about is whether whatever figure I'm using can be realistically put into what might be considered some rather extreme poses, and for whatever content I'm using to support those poses.  For example, I might want to have V6 wearing a long-sleeve shirt while reaching up over her head to clutch a rope she's being hanged with.  I need to know I'll be able to put her in such a pose without either the figure or clothing mesh tearing.

I own several morph packs designed to fix most of V4's flaws and give her a touch of realism, but have yet to see anything similar released for Dawn or Genesis.  It's as if V4 was the last great figure released, and no one wants to touch the new stuff.

I'm not concerned about what anyone might think of me for using one figure or another.  I'm concerned about the ongoing lack of support for new technology.

I'm with Moriador; you probably need to look at the DAZ store, especially the creature section to see what is made from the base. There's a lot of different creatures that were made. The lower poly count isn't much as an issue as there's not much difference between V6 and V4 from the renders once subdivided. Also characters using HD tech has higher mesh count when rendered than V4. Weightmaps are more manageable with lower poly meshes. Working and creating with a lower poly mesh is simply a shift of how to create; artists in other applications have been working with lower poly meshes for years then adding the appropriate maps to render their work.

Agrred and agreed (Male_M3dia/Moriador) - if you're needing extreme poses, you want Genesis/Genesis 2. Use the low poly mode for posing, and turn up the render mode poly count for your finished images. Also ditto Male_M3dia with regards to creature morphs, as you can actually have a wolfman who starts as a man and transforms into a wolf, using the same figure so it looks natural, rather than using a clunky frame to frame figure swap.

I was personally a bit disappointed with Genesis 1, but have found Genesis 2 quite liberating and now use it as my main figure in Poser Pro 2014 - getting the best of both worlds.

I totally agree with Mal_M3dia, Moriador, and R_Hatch!!!

I really enjoy using Genesis1and Ganesis2. They seem to take extreme morphs much better than V4, and extreme poses work much better as well. Genesis does work better in DS, but it is usable in Poser (and Carrara). I still used V4 for some things, especially when I need to use foot wear designed for V4, but I find Genesis1/2 easier and more fun to use. Of course this is just my opinion, and your milage may vary, but I really do honestly prefer to use Genesis1/2.

As for details, I think Genesis1/2 is great. I like the details in my Genesis renders. Take a look at my gallery here, and others who use Genesis and judge for yourself.

I also find Genesis just plain fun to use (99% of the time)!

it's not just DAZ Poser it's all of CGI Max,zBrush etc etc

The way high end meshes are made in 2014 is

ya make a base mesh 5000 to 20'000 Roxie,V6 polycount around 20,000 for rigging.
then you put a vector map on the base mesh polycount around 5,000,000.

You can view zBrush,Mudbox gallers to see what I'm talking about.

more or less HD meshes.

The way high end game meshes are made in 2014 is

ya make a base mesh polycount 3000 to 6000.
then you put a normal map on the base mesh polycount stays the same.

2014 games look good don't they :)

V4 polycount is 60.000 cause Poser did not have SubD's at the time so they SubDed V4 in LW & frozze her for Poser.

Only Poser used a 60.000 polycount mesh.No other app would.
Any app will use a 20.000 polycount mesh,Roxie ,V6.

part of V6 is V4 not SudDed & frozzen.
They did change some of the topology on V6.
Each new version of ya mesh ya change some of the topology :)

old Poser versions can't use the newer meshes .

before I listened to someone's opinions of characters.
I'd ask what version of Poser & other CGI App's they where using.
If they say only Poser 4 then there knowlage of CGI is limmited to only 1998 Poser 4.
A lots happen between 1998 & 2014.

Quote - Last October, I built a new PC with parts specifically chosen for the primary task of rendering 3D art.  Is there any point in my continuing to use it for that purpose, or has the divide between the tech and community support widened too much to bother anymore?  I have much more enjoyable interests to spend my free time on that don't give me headaches.

My suggestion is you treat 3D technology like you treat PC hardware, in a few years time it will be superseded and redundant but you haven't lost the ability to make a new PC its just the hardware will have changed.

In the world of PCs, it is said that any component you buy is already 6 months outdated the day it goes on the market. 

I think the same is true in the world of CG art. It's one of those industries that are constantly evolving and changing on a daily basis, and it can be a lot to keep up with if you try to follow all of it. 

But at the same time it all boils down to what you're most comfortable using. All these figures and the content for them are only meant to be a starting point for building your own artwork from. The art itself comes down to individual talent. So after you've experimented with a handful of the most commonly supported figures and content to get a feel for how they function, pick the ones that you like working with the best and see how far you can push it to acheive the results you're looking for.

When I use other people's content to do renders, I try to customize it into something that's my own. That's what started me on learning how to build my own content anyway. I was modifying pieces that were already available, and building things I needed that I couldn't find. 

If you spend all your time and energy trying to keep up with what all the forum bickering is about, you're just wasting time that you could be spending on creating all that art you wanted to create when you started working with this stuff to begin with. I've wasted plenty of time myself over the years reading forum rants that ultimately meant nothing to me while I could have been spending that time doing what I enjoyed or needed to do instead. 

Everyone is going to have their own opinions, and their own favorites. There's no rule that says you have to follow anyone's recommendation if that doesn't work for you. There is plenty of info available on all these forums and other sites that give you everything you need to know to get started using whichever software/figure combo you want to use. And if none of those figures work quite the way you need them to work, Poser has plenty of tools that will allow you to customize a figure to do what you need it to do. You just have to learn how to use those tools. 

There are many people who have never touched a DAZ figure and have no interest in doing so, and they still produce great art with the figures they do use. Learn how to use the software you want to use, and photoshop, or some other 2D image editing program for postwork is really all you need. You can even use DS and Poser in conjunction with whatever workflow you you create for yourself. In the end, most sane people looking at the art you produce aren't going to care what program was used to create it.

Quote - In the end, most sane people looking at the art you produce aren't going to care what program was used to create it.

 

Other then those already in the know not only don't care what you are doing but don't understand why you are doing it.  Most of my family enjoy my work and understand that I use Poser renders as an illustration tool but in the wider field of my friends, most do not understand.  Truth is I do what I do because I enjoy it, and it also challenges my mind far more than watching the latest twist on a reality TV show.  I perfer to sit in front on my PC than sit in front of all the TV soaps some dressed up as drama, like a soap based in a  fire station, police station, Victorian house and so on.  The fact that someone may not like my choice of figure or thinks I can do better does not bother me, just don't trying taking away what I all ready have or make things too easy.

When you get deep into the forums it is easy to get excited over certain aspects and also easy to forget the wider picture.  I spend a lot of time here for a number of reasons, I have learnt a great deal here, I am interested in new developments but a lot of the time it is just because I want a distraction while a render finishes.

i mainly use V4 and M4 but i fix up things in photoshop afterwards.  i especially find the liquify brush useful.

What most call "figure bashing" is not figure bashing at all.

Some will defend their figure at all cost. Some point out why their figure is not as good as they claim it to be.

There are 2 kind of end users.
- the click, drag-drop dressed-renderers
- those who dig deeper

The first kind does not care too much, if it does not work on a figure, they take another one.

The second sort of people dig into the figures and compare technology, compare possibilities and find and hopefully report the errors.

I started with P1 somewhere in the mid 90's, and today, september 2014, I have not found a singe error free figure. Not from SM, not from DAZ, not from Hivewire.

And what is far worce, not a single error free and user friendly figure exists at all.

Fom bad welding, to completely wrong topology, wrong proportions, to assymetrical obj files, completely out of whack magnets, loose vertex all around, rigging errors that go from simple to impossible, more material zones then Rubens used colors in his paintings.

September 2014, almost 20 years after the inital Poser release, and there is NO single error free and end user friendly figure.

That is not bashing, that is the reality.

Oh, and please show me ONE, that's all, one will do.

A default figure that has breasts that behave like breasts.

No-no, balloons do not count: Breasts.

You know? Like women have?

Quote - Oh, and please show me ONE, that's all, one will do.

A default figure that has breasts that behave like breasts.

No-no, balloons do not count: Breasts.

You know? Like women have?

Before you start:

Please don't start spamming this thread with those figures that you want to use as examples. 

We've seen them plenty. No one wants figures with those things otherwise you'd see them more in the marketplace.

Thank you.

Attached Link: Natural Boobies

Perhaps not in the Rendo Marketplace.  ;-)

(See Link)

And yeah, what Vilters said:

All existing DAZ and Poser figures pretty much s*ck if you have somewhat higher artistic and also technical standards.

But of course as people around here instantly go ballistic the moment you point out a flaw in "their" favourite figure or just have a "Well, I can always fix it in Photoshop" attitude, there is no pressure for figure makers to deliver better work.

I mean, it's 2014. You simply shouldn't "have to" fix rigging errors or proportional errors in Photoshop anymore.

Back in the Posette days we just didn't have the technology to build realistic looking figures.

Now we have, and it's a shame we're the only part left in the CGI world so unwilling to exploit it.

@ terrancew
You use the market place as a reference? ? They make what sells, and ballO-Ons sell.

Sorry,  but my reference is the female human body.

I do not give a ****  what sells or not.

Have a nice day.

"September 2014, almost 20 years after the inital Poser release, and there is NO single error free and end user friendly figure.

That is not bashing, that is the reality."

No bashing here, but what I don't understand is why any figure manages to get a release with errors in it in the first place.  It's just a mesh, and there are tools to check for holes, reversed normals, unused vertices, perfect symmetry etc.

All it takes is an ounce of pride in your work and to have the enthusiasm to check all of those things before you release it to others.  It's not rocket science and the tools do the work for you.  Go through it in a logical manner, do it right.  If a program is responsible for messing-up a mesh, that's differen't, but I don't think there's any excuse for the figure-mesh itself having errors in it.

OK now where getting in to personal opinion's of what are dream girls alt to look like.
There's no right or wrong ,just to each there own.so it's futile to argue this .

It's a personal opinion of how a mesh should be made.
There's no right or wrong ,just to each there own.so it's futile to argue this .

If your 100% dependent on Poser 4 & Rosetta.
You are very limited to change anything that you have declared a flaw.

If one app does not provide you with the necessary tools you want for your mesh.
There's other CGI app's that will.

Attached Link: It's a crass culture, Hobbes. Shoddy and quick is all anybody knows.

:-(

The best CG films, with hundreds of millions of dollars behind them, still have to use post-work in their films to fix certain things. That's why programs like After Effects and Nuke still exist. There's not a single one out there that doesn't use post work to some extent, even in 2014. 

Breasts are built the way they're built so that clothing looks decent on them, and the figure doesn't look like the cover of a national geographic mag. There are morphs and JCMs to correct where they need to be corrected. If breasts looked like that then most of these poser stores probably wouldn't exist, and without them this forum doesn't exist either, cause nothing would be paying the bills to keep the place running.

I am afraid you are right Shane.

Dollars have taken over from quality.

There are a lot of objective reasons why breasts should be modeled in their "natural shape" and at their "natural heigt".

An then morphed to fit into clothing.

Not the other way around as is common Poser / DS practice.

**
@Noxiart**
Yup!

@ OP spend a month or two learning blender then grab make human and forgot these HIGH maintainance gurls ;-) [good skins are the only thing missing]

poser is great for figures but blender does pretty much anything but make your tea

fancy doing something abstract its easy!! making props is simples even landscapes are possible (real grass unique tree's ) ok will give you the odd headache rofl

then it has cloth sims (not as good as poser) fluid sims (watch your temps they can be aggressive)

and I'll bet you a squid after a year of oh wows in blender you'll fire up poser again 'cos it does what it does with the minimum fuss!!!