shante .It's your choice to decide how deep to go down the rabbit hole. but if you stay on the surface your never see the magic of it all.

"So, my question is, as a "Don't know sheitz about modeling myself" kinda person, what would it take for a vendor of similar products that need absolutely NO connection with the complex issues of blend zones and mesh configurations and all that necessary knowledge in making product for HUMANOID/ANIMAL figures, to also in the process of creating a set of said kind to ALSO offer a version that works natively in Poser?"

The last poser product I did sold less than 20% of the volume of an identical studio product during intro and then sales ground to a halt on it. I also know that when various people stopped poser support they saw no change in sales numbers on products but a fair bit of time gained not doing the alternate settings for poser. For the average content creator a 20% return on the same amount of work on setting up surfaces etc just is not viable. So what it would take is at an absolute minimum a sales increase that was at least 50% of the sales for a Studio only product. Ideally of course the sales volume numbers should match those should match for a comparable product or double for a combined studio/poser product.

Daz was able to hold out much longer than the brokered content creators as far as support goes, and Jack is still fighting the good fight in order to be faithful to the plat members. But for most of us the sales numbers vs time to support has been clear for a while. Keep in mind that it isn't just that you may not get back the time spent to support poser you are also taking time that could be spent more profitably. It isn't as if the average content provider is rolling in cash and when your walking a fine line you do have to make sure that things are going to be profitable enough to pay the bills and put food on the table.

RorrKonn posted at 6:35PM Fri, 23 October 2015 - #4234949

shante .It's your choice to decide how deep to go down the rabbit hole. but if you stay on the surface your never see the magic of it all.

I know but three deaths in the family a few years ago and all the crap that ensued with mind and body, and i am even less than before able to embrace complex stuff. The brain took a major hit with the pain and medications for it. Not that i was ever the sharpest nail in the bag(as some of you at some point here have come to understand about me) but now less than ever can I wrap the dead brain around the stuff one needs to learn to dive into the tech rabbit hole.. I don't not because i am afraid to but because i have tried again and again and hit the wall....HARD. Got tired of the unneeded stress that was causing me. Poser was as it has always been for me: AN ESCAPE. if it turns into more work and anxiety than i can handle it is no longer something i want to pursue. Some make choices out of a need to grow or a fear of failure or a lack of funds while others make choices that work easiest for their ability....or lack of them. Just is what it is friend. I don't like it but..........

Khory_D posted at 6:45PM Fri, 23 October 2015 - #4234961

"So, my question is, as a "Don't know sheitz about modeling myself" kinda person, what would it take for a vendor of similar products that need absolutely NO connection with the complex issues of blend zones and mesh configurations and all that necessary knowledge in making product for HUMANOID/ANIMAL figures, to also in the process of creating a set of said kind to ALSO offer a version that works natively in Poser?"

The last poser product I did sold less than 20% of the volume of an identical studio product during intro and then sales ground to a halt on it. I also know that when various people stopped poser support they saw no change in sales numbers on products but a fair bit of time gained not doing the alternate settings for poser. For the average content creator a 20% return on the same amount of work on setting up surfaces etc just is not viable. So what it would take is at an absolute minimum a sales increase that was at least 50% of the sales for a Studio only product. Ideally of course the sales volume numbers should match those should match for a comparable product or double for a combined studio/poser product.

Daz was able to hold out much longer than the brokered content creators as far as support goes, and Jack is still fighting the good fight in order to be faithful to the plat members. But for most of us the sales numbers vs time to support has been clear for a while. Keep in mind that it isn't just that you may not get back the time spent to support poser you are also taking time that could be spent more profitably. It isn't as if the average content provider is rolling in cash and when your walking a fine line you do have to make sure that things are going to be profitable enough to pay the bills and put food on the table.

Oh I understand but for guys like me who love certain products and despite willing to pay for them are unable to because we see them for an app we do not have or will never (I think and hope) get, it is frustrating. I am old enough and experienced enough to understand the need for profit and/or proper compensation but I thought Artists didn't need money! (sorry that was tongue in cheek and sarcastic because you have no idea how damn many times clients or prospective clients and employers threw that at me in the course of my trying to eek out an existence in photography illustration or Graphic Design so much i quit the whole damn circus after years of training and growing experience and skill sets, after years of trying to make it. Knowledge is king here and I just wanted to be told by someone in the know that is is more difficult that it seems to create like products for two platforms/apps. Thanks,

Some vendors might have chosen to not support Poser but it seems most DAZ vendors do not support all of DAZ either.

Some make a out fit for 1 DAZ character. The out fit is made for G2 or G3 n maybe a V6 or something.

Yes but there is autofit support, so there is no need to release it for every specific figure or generation. Sometimes when an item fits perfectly on a figure that isn't supported, there won't be a need for an official version for that figure because the clothing fits fine. Also in most of the clothing the other figure shapes are supported via FMB's if required. Eg I can fit all my G3 clothes on Genesis 2 via a clone. I do not need a dedicated Genesis 2 version of that clothing, and vice versa.

shante posted at 8:05PM Fri, 23 October 2015 - #4234969

Khory_D posted at 6:45PM Fri, 23 October 2015 - #4234961

"So, my question is, as a "Don't know sheitz about modeling myself" kinda person, what would it take for a vendor of similar products that need absolutely NO connection with the complex issues of blend zones and mesh configurations and all that necessary knowledge in making product for HUMANOID/ANIMAL figures, to also in the process of creating a set of said kind to ALSO offer a version that works natively in Poser?"

The last poser product I did sold less than 20% of the volume of an identical studio product during intro and then sales ground to a halt on it. I also know that when various people stopped poser support they saw no change in sales numbers on products but a fair bit of time gained not doing the alternate settings for poser. For the average content creator a 20% return on the same amount of work on setting up surfaces etc just is not viable. So what it would take is at an absolute minimum a sales increase that was at least 50% of the sales for a Studio only product. Ideally of course the sales volume numbers should match those should match for a comparable product or double for a combined studio/poser product.

Daz was able to hold out much longer than the brokered content creators as far as support goes, and Jack is still fighting the good fight in order to be faithful to the plat members. But for most of us the sales numbers vs time to support has been clear for a while. Keep in mind that it isn't just that you may not get back the time spent to support poser you are also taking time that could be spent more profitably. It isn't as if the average content provider is rolling in cash and when your walking a fine line you do have to make sure that things are going to be profitable enough to pay the bills and put food on the table.

Oh I understand but for guys like me who love certain products and despite willing to pay for them are unable to because we see them for an app we do not have or will never (I think and hope) get, it is frustrating. I am old enough and experienced enough to understand the need for profit and/or proper compensation but I thought Artists didn't need money! (sorry that was tongue in cheek and sarcastic because you have no idea how damn many times clients or prospective clients and employers threw that at me in the course of my trying to eek out an existence in photography illustration or Graphic Design so much i quit the whole damn circus after years of training and growing experience and skill sets, after years of trying to make it. Knowledge is king here and I just wanted to be told by someone in the know that is is more difficult that it seems to create like products for two platforms/apps. Thanks,

I'm a bit out dated on this but it's still the same concept. it still works the same more or less. when I made a out fit for A3 in Poser 5 days .I realized it was way ,way ,way easyer to use a main app. I used LW at the time.It was easyer to re rig A3 n attach the cloths in LW. Then it was to attach the cloths in Poser 5.

Zev0 posted at 8:22PM Fri, 23 October 2015 - #4234972

Yes but there is autofit support, so there is no need to release it for every specific figure or generation. Sometimes when an item fits perfectly on a figure that isn't supported, there won't be a need for an official version for that figure because the clothing fits fine. Also in most of the clothing the other figure shapes are supported via FMB's if required. Eg I can fit all my G3 clothes on Genesis 2 via a clone. I do not need a dedicated Genesis 2 version of that clothing, and vice versa.

How good would autofit work from Bethany 7 to young teen 5 Julie ?

Depends on how the clothing was made and what type of clothing it is. Since I don't think there is a Genesis 3 clone for Genesis 1 which Teen 5 Julie is based on, you could fit the Bethany 7 (Genesis 3) item to Genesis 2 since there is a Genesis 3 autofit clone for it, and from there autofit it onto Teen 5 Julie which is based on Genesis 1, since it has a Genesis 2 autofit clone available. So basically a two stage autofit transfer -> G3 to G2 to G1. Again, these days clothing is made for the base, and has fbm's for shapes like Bethany 7 etc so it can be used on a wider range of characters, so technically the clothing isn't Bethany 7 specific.

Or...You can transfer Teen 5 Julie shape to Genesis 2 and just have a one stage autofit transfer of the clothing Eg G3 to G2. All depends on your preference.

I've bumbed around DAZ Poser for a long time.

This is how I see it.

If I wanted characters in DAZ Poser I would use my own. I won't work with others meshes and there rules. If I work with my meshes I make the rules.

I have no doubt ALL CGI Artist that is capable of making characters have the exact same philosophy as me.

Lets say I make a female character for DAZ Studio. I couldn't sell my female at DAZ.com and I see DAZes advertisement every where. DAZ has multiple female characters with multiple venders supporting them and auto fit so any out fit fits any DAZ female.

So if I made a DAZ female character.it would be as noticeable as one drop of water in a hurricane.

I have no doubt DAZ Knows they have a monopoly on DAZ Poser characters and would War to keep it. Not that I wouldn't do the same.

Every one talks about this vendor or that vendor stop supporting Poser. Really the only vendor that mattered was DAZ.DAZ leaving Poser just says it all don't it.

Now DAZ have left Poser. but DAZ built there empire making Poser characters. So could another build there empire making Poser characters ? you no longer have DAZ as a competitor for Poser characters.

So what do you think ,could another build a Poser characters Empire ?

RorrKonn posted at 6:57AM Sat, 24 October 2015 - #4235030

I've bumbed around DAZ Poser for a long time.

This is how I see it.

If I wanted characters in DAZ Poser I would use my own. I won't work with others meshes and there rules. If I work with my meshes I make the rules.

I have no doubt ALL CGI Artist that is capable of making characters have the exact same philosophy as me.

Lets say I make a female character for DAZ Studio. I couldn't sell my female at DAZ.com and I see DAZes advertisement every where. DAZ has multiple female characters with multiple venders supporting them and auto fit so any out fit fits any DAZ female.

So if I made a DAZ female character.it would be as noticeable as one drop of water in a hurricane.

I have no doubt DAZ Knows they have a monopoly on DAZ Poser characters and would War to keep it. Not that I wouldn't do the same.

Every one talks about this vendor or that vendor stop supporting Poser. Really the only vendor that mattered was DAZ.DAZ leaving Poser just says it all don't it.

Now DAZ have left Poser. but DAZ built there empire making Poser characters. So could another build there empire making Poser characters ? you no longer have DAZ as a competitor for Poser characters.

So what do you think ,could another build a Poser characters Empire ?

The difficulty is that Poser was a monopoly then and it isn't anymore. Plus the competitor is getting all the juice at the moment. The only one trying at the moment is HiveWire and even they know better than go Poser only. They are also relying on creators to support Poser as well as Daz. Those vendors will have to make the same support decisions as everyone else.

The veteran Poser users are saying "I don't need no stinkin' content" and the newer users are saying "I can't wait for the tide to turn" and don't have a large vested interest in Poser.

Absolutely. But. It would require ignoring the D.A.Z. word completely. Remember that a great deal of the 'cool tech' that the D word used to build that 'empire' was not theirs to begin with. It was, in fact, either created by Poser users (INJ, ERC, as just a couple of of them), or it was exploits of Poser bugs the community took and ran with (conforming figure). It would take someone embracing what Poser can do now, with a willingness to embrace whatever new concepts and cool kludges that the community cooks up. It would also require the patience of the gods to deal with the nay sayers, the 'But its not Viiiicky!" whiners, and the no doubt well meaning ambassadors from previous empire(s) who would no doubt delight in chucking whatever hand grenades they could find into things just to increase the chaos. The biggest obstacle would be the 'I want it NOW!' mindset of the underclassmen. The Poser cottage industry -grew- over years; it didn't just magically appear one day (although I daresay you could find those willing to claim they pulled it from their ass fully formed). People would find things others had made for personal pleasure or edification, and beg and plead for it to be made available. -Thats- where that industry actually came from. The first D figure to replace Posette was....shall we say crude to the max? It was the -community- that made the original V thing into a viable figure to use. Not its creator. I still have all the morphs from Morphworld that Traveler made in Blacksmith to -make- it usable. That is the thing that's really changed; that 'Look at this cool trick I just figured out!' "Wow man, that is cool! How'd you do that?' 'Well, (technobabble), like that!' 'Neat! But.... Bla Bla's trick. -That- does this other thing. And if you can do these two things, can't you combine them and make this other effect kinda work?" 'Sonofabitch, you can! And if you throw in Goofus's texture trick thingy...!' mindset.

Sound familiar, forum fossils? That was the spirit that built not only the program but the cottage industry. That spirit hasn't died by any means; we have the likes of Bagginsbill sharing the results of his shader magic. Why is he doing it? As per his words: Fun. Not '$10.99 and the first 100 get a free Squoogie!'. Fun. He's just one example. Look at Nerd3D's contributions...most starting out as 'I'm gonna beat that little bugger!' Diogenes rigging in V4WM is a thing of beauty, particularly since he was banging away on a decade old mesh topology set up for almost 20 year old rigging technology. Personally, I'd love to see Shvrdavid's facial rigging setups and play with one. Bone driven faces? Stop and think about that one. No facial morphs for expressions. That is the kind of thing you do in Maya, and we can do it now in Poser. The tricks that permit such things could be used for other things, as well (one example: no one has used the dependent parameter dial to animate a large series of simple motions, but you could. You could make say, a steampunk contraption or an old fashioned computer wall, have simple axial animation on parts, and link them all together so that one dial brings the whole thing to life. That dependent parameter capability is what -allows- Shvrdavid to link multiple bones in a face to create facial motion. It could be used to link multiple movement morphs in a piece of conforming clothing, as well). Weight maps can be used on -anything- that moves or has motion. So can bulge maps (example: a soda can. Set a single or double joint rig in the can to allow it to be 'crushed'. A weight map can be painted that allows -different- crushes, depending on the behavior of the rig. Bulge maps can be added around the joints of the rig so the 'can' deforms as a real can does. Now. Stop and think what else that kind of deformation technology can be used for).

Poser would need to make certain features a little more user friendly (this is where having a nerd like Nerd in their house is going to be handy), and field a new figure that has appeal visually. And the *Poser* community needs to really stop worrying what other communities do. I don't know if anyone has really noticed it yet, but we've got most of the goodies under the hood to support an actual muscle armature. Not there yet, but close. Maybe if some nerds and geeks sat down and poked at that bear, they might find that the redheaded stepchild of CG -can- do it now... Certainly wouldn't be the first time. Or if not, find that the program needs just -one- feature to make it so. Gives everyone something to focus on then, doesn't it?

The one thing people will have to get through their heads is that it will take time. Time, and being willing to learn again and stretch the mental muscles.

Oh I understand but for guys like me who love certain products and despite willing to pay for them are unable to because we see them for an app we do not have or will never (I think and hope) get, it is frustrating. I am old enough and experienced enough to understand the need for profit and/or proper compensation but I thought Artists didn't need money! (sorry that was tongue in cheek and sarcastic because you have no idea how damn many times clients or prospective clients and employers threw that at me in the course of my trying to eek out an existence in photography illustration or Graphic Design so much i quit the whole damn circus after years of training and growing experience and skill sets, after years of trying to make it. Knowledge is king here and I just wanted to be told by someone in the know that is is more difficult that it seems to create like products for two platforms/apps. Thanks,

It isn't difficult. Difficulty isn't the issue. As with most things it is time. In this case it is a time vs compensation. Lets say that I do a set of props. Because all the modeling is the same (ish) for studio and poser I don't included that time in my math. I'd spend that time no matter what. What is left? Setting up the surfaces, thumbs and promos. I could be a total slacker, plenty of people use to do it in order to support studio, and simply do an auto convert of my surfaces and call it a day. I can then claim support without actually having put any effort into it. I doubt anyone with a moral compass would be comfortable with that and I know the end users would not be. Doing proper surfaces is going to take about the same set up time it did for Studio. In theory I could carry over the studio thumbs and only do one poser promo to save time. So, in theory a 30-40 percent income increase would cover that extra time. I'm not sure about sales numbers here but for myself and the people I know it has been a long time since that happened. Maybe 30-40 seems like not much but the sad reality is people stopped seeing that a good while ago. It will be even less viable going forward as cycles gets added. If at some point cycles can use MDL (a growing standard shader language by the way that is used by quite a variety of programs already) then that would change everything because it would be a native compatibility.

_Lets say I make a female character for DAZ Studio. I couldn't sell my female at DAZ.com and I see DAZes advertisement every where. DAZ has multiple female characters with multiple venders supporting them and auto fit so any out fit fits any DAZ female.

So if I made a DAZ female character.it would be as noticeable as one drop of water in a hurricane.

I have no doubt DAZ Knows they have a monopoly on DAZ Poser characters and would War to keep it. Not that I wouldn't do the same.

Every one talks about this vendor or that vendor stop supporting Poser. Really the only vendor that mattered was DAZ.DAZ leaving Poser just says it all don't it.

Now DAZ have left Poser. but DAZ built there empire making Poser characters. So could another build there empire making Poser characters ? you no longer have DAZ as a competitor for Poser characters.

So what do you think ,could another build a Poser characters Empire ?_

Why could you not sell a new figure at Daz? Because they do their own? Well as I have said before Daz is pretty pragmatic and if someone brought them an amazing figure and there was a way to blend it into the work flow studio users expect I think they would snap it up. They would save all that R&D time for one thing. Do I think they would plop some stand alone figure in the store and hope it got support? Not so much, because that would just be sad for the creator and they are not inclined to set people up to fail.

If Daz still has a monopoly on characters for Poser there is absolutely no one to blame but SM. If customer base numbers are not where they should be to keep Poser in the lead there is no one to blame but SM. SM should have been as aware of market changes as any of us. They could have addressed the lack of content on their part years ago. They even had a brokerage that they could have really leveraged but decided not to. Instead they have pretty much rested on resale of Poser to existing users and let the rest go hang.

I fully understand them not wanting to hitch to Daz's wagon. After all if that really worked out well there would be no Studio and we wouldn't be talking about any of this. But the minute they deiced they could forgo the new Daz line of characters they needed to get a machine going to produce their own with full support and start out of market advertising to build user numbers back up. If they were not going to depend on Daz character content any more then they needed to have competing characters, and support for them in place before that version of Poser even hit the shelves. And they needed to put as much or more effort into driving in new poser users as Daz has done with studio for the last few years. If they didn't have the money to invest in all of that they needed to seriously consider making the newer Daz figures usable natively in Poser.

Could another empire be built on poser characters? Maybe, but it would be load of work and would require some heavy cash investments from the start. Don't forget that for over 10 years sales of those characters has also been to studio users. And for at least the last 5 those sales have been at least 50% of those sales. With the numbers shifting more grammatically away from Poser over the last 3 years. So to build an empire on just poser characters someone would have to drive a huge user increase and to do that they would have to do marketing catch up which would cost money. And then of course they would have to have a compelling, cutting edge, and well supported day one (by themselves and by a score of content creators) character that would pull money out of pockets from the day of release and not slow down. Unless someone wins the lottery I am not holding my breath on that happening.

I've already suspended two people in this thread who chose to ignore my request to stop the arguing and software/figure bashing. I can suspend more if I need to.

If you don't want to use Poser for whatever reasons, that's your decision. If you think DS is better then go use DS. But this forum is not going to be your platform for ranting about why you don't like Poser, or what you think of its users. We are actively removing the problem members from this forum. If you don't want to be on that list then keep your negativity to yourself.

Dale B posted at 11:51AM Sat, 24 October 2015 - #4235042

Absolutely. But. It would require ignoring the D.A.Z. word completely. Remember that a great deal of the 'cool tech' that the D word used to build that 'empire' was not theirs to begin with. It was, in fact, either created by Poser users (INJ, ERC, as just a couple of of them), or it was exploits of Poser bugs the community took and ran with (conforming figure). It would take someone embracing what Poser can do now, with a willingness to embrace whatever new concepts and cool kludges that the community cooks up. It would also require the patience of the gods to deal with the nay sayers, the 'But its not Viiiicky!" whiners, and the no doubt well meaning ambassadors from previous empire(s) who would no doubt delight in chucking whatever hand grenades they could find into things just to increase the chaos. The biggest obstacle would be the 'I want it NOW!' mindset of the underclassmen. The Poser cottage industry -grew- over years; it didn't just magically appear one day (although I daresay you could find those willing to claim they pulled it from their ass fully formed). People would find things others had made for personal pleasure or edification, and beg and plead for it to be made available. -Thats- where that industry actually came from. The first D figure to replace Posette was....shall we say crude to the max? It was the -community- that made the original V thing into a viable figure to use. Not its creator. I still have all the morphs from Morphworld that Traveler made in Blacksmith to -make- it usable. That is the thing that's really changed; that 'Look at this cool trick I just figured out!' "Wow man, that is cool! How'd you do that?' 'Well, (technobabble), like that!' 'Neat! But.... Bla Bla's trick. -That- does this other thing. And if you can do these two things, can't you combine them and make this other effect kinda work?" 'Sonofabitch, you can! And if you throw in Goofus's texture trick thingy...!' mindset.

Sound familiar, forum fossils? That was the spirit that built not only the program but the cottage industry. That spirit hasn't died by any means; we have the likes of Bagginsbill sharing the results of his shader magic. Why is he doing it? As per his words: Fun. Not '$10.99 and the first 100 get a free Squoogie!'. Fun. He's just one example. Look at Nerd3D's contributions...most starting out as 'I'm gonna beat that little bugger!' Diogenes rigging in V4WM is a thing of beauty, particularly since he was banging away on a decade old mesh topology set up for almost 20 year old rigging technology. Personally, I'd love to see Shvrdavid's facial rigging setups and play with one. Bone driven faces? Stop and think about that one. No facial morphs for expressions. That is the kind of thing you do in Maya, and we can do it now in Poser. The tricks that permit such things could be used for other things, as well (one example: no one has used the dependent parameter dial to animate a large series of simple motions, but you could. You could make say, a steampunk contraption or an old fashioned computer wall, have simple axial animation on parts, and link them all together so that one dial brings the whole thing to life. That dependent parameter capability is what -allows- Shvrdavid to link multiple bones in a face to create facial motion. It could be used to link multiple movement morphs in a piece of conforming clothing, as well). Weight maps can be used on -anything- that moves or has motion. So can bulge maps (example: a soda can. Set a single or double joint rig in the can to allow it to be 'crushed'. A weight map can be painted that allows -different- crushes, depending on the behavior of the rig. Bulge maps can be added around the joints of the rig so the 'can' deforms as a real can does. Now. Stop and think what else that kind of deformation technology can be used for).

Poser would need to make certain features a little more user friendly (this is where having a nerd like Nerd in their house is going to be handy), and field a new figure that has appeal visually. And the *Poser* community needs to really stop worrying what other communities do. I don't know if anyone has really noticed it yet, but we've got most of the goodies under the hood to support an actual muscle armature. Not there yet, but close. Maybe if some nerds and geeks sat down and poked at that bear, they might find that the redheaded stepchild of CG -can- do it now... Certainly wouldn't be the first time. Or if not, find that the program needs just -one- feature to make it so. Gives everyone something to focus on then, doesn't it?

The one thing people will have to get through their heads is that it will take time. Time, and being willing to learn again and stretch the mental muscles.

I believe you're right. The dependence on Daz to provide content has made much of the userbase very lazy in comparison to what they were a decade or more ago. It's for the reasons you describe that I think the market split will ultimately be good for Poser.

And as Rorr points out, there will be no competition from Daz for Poser products.

But it is going to be very painful for a while for customers who rely on third party content -- and have grown accustomed to just getting it with ease. And painful for vendors who could previously upload their 30th V4 bikini and still expect sales. But then major change is always uncomfortable.

At the moment, however, Daz still sets the standard for figure content. It would be nice to see Poser content exceed that standard. It's not as though the technology isn't there -- right now, though it could be easier to use. Here's hoping 2016 offers up some much desired changes. Nerd's a content creator and a vendor, so he knows perfectly well where the roadblocks are in the creator's workflow. We'll just have to see....

In any case, I am going to upgrade to the new Poser when it's out because they promised me a selection tool that will not accidentally translate the items I've selected! For me, just that will be worth the upgrade cost. :)

Oh, there will be pain, no two ways. That's what makes it worth it. Not pleasant maybe (I dare anyone to say stitching 7 disparate dance BVH files from different sources together with Posers dopesheet and graph editor is in any way painless....agonizing is more accurate...), but the results of success are so worth it.

Well my thoughts are scattered about this. I am a CGI Artist ,I am not a business man. I always thought it would be fun to make characters for Poser. Not just some sexy girl but all kinds of characters. Monsters, Dragons ,Snakes ,All kind of Mechs etc etc.

I enjoy gallerys but I can only take so much pretty scenes.Where's the dirt ,grim n blood ? I don't make a lot of pretty clean Art.

Thought I would start with a snake see how far I can take Posers textures n all. Then some monsters n beast n work my way up to making the Ruling Queen of Poser.

Like the saying goes .Better to rule in ...

it's W.I.P. a long ways to go ;)

Model it completely straight with the eyes and mouth partially closed, teeth bent in, and hood partway extended. It'll save you hassles with UV and rig. Morphs and erc will take care of the rest, trust me not as complicated as it sounds.

EldritchCellar posted at 11:37PM Sat, 24 October 2015 - #4235129

Model it completely straight with the eyes and mouth partially closed, teeth bent in, and hood partway extended. It'll save you hassles with UV and rig. Morphs and erc will take care of the rest, trust me not as complicated as it sounds.

Excellent advice ,good thing one of us knows what there doing. and I'll be sure to straiten the snake out before I start mapping n rigging or anything. but I'm kinda making it up as I go .there's know blue print except these I'm roughly basing the snake on. So I half to model the front bent cause it's how I see it in my head. but I'll be sure to straiten the snake out once it's modeled.

Thanks for the help :)

that snake looks great. Any chance you could make me a little pink earthworm like this one please one day after you finish snakey. with spectacles please.

estherau posted at 2:10AM Sun, 25 October 2015 - #4235141

that snake looks great. Any chance you could make me a little pink earthworm like this one please one day after you finish snakey. with spectacles please.

What's all the text in the .jpg say ? What key words would you use to google it ?

I do not want Poser to die, and if everyone abandons V4 and other figures that work in Poser that is what will happen. I am worried about all the content being made of the latest batch of Daz-only characters. I don't even want to learn to use Daz. Studio. Long live Poser!!!!!!

RorrKonn, very few of us got into content creation to be "business people". In fact that is one of the worst aspects of the whole process. Depending on where you broker you may have to do pretty much everything, including your own marketing. I think most of us start out wanting to figure out how things work end then move on to the making them instead of making images.

As texturing has changed we have seen much more "dirty, grungy, bloody" turning up. It use to be just crazy tedious to add that sort of stuff. I'm not sure what you plan to texture with but the products in Substance live are amazing. And well priced. But be warned! You can really lose yourself in it.

I agree with EldritchCellar about modeling it without bends. Pulling those out is going to be a huge pain in the posterior. Course if it were me doing it I would still have 3 restarts before I felt fully committed to it.

If you make killer meshes ,People will notice. I will use any and all App's to make killer meshes including allegorithmics :)

n if your talking a huge pain in the posterior ,Mechs are a night mare from the deepest pits of ...

About the dirt,blood n grimm .show me one DAZ Poser render that's = to Spartacus or Moses.There just aren't any. DAZ Poser has the cleanest War Lords ever seen.

I don't aim to make meshes just good enough for Poser. they half to be good enough for Hollywood.

If I wanted to make some quick change I'd make some stupid panties for the girls.

I've herd countless time hear .you can't do this or that cause of what ever.

DAZ left there Poser Throne. I will claim that Throne.

I've had but one goal since 2nd grade ,that was the stone age by the way ;).To be the best Artist .

I could texture 10 pairs of panties a hour n who cares.

My meshes are not fast n easy .but they are killer :)

"About the dirt,blood n grimm .show me one DAZ Poser render that's = to Spartacus or Moses.There just aren't any. DAZ Poser has the cleanest War Lords ever seen."

Mostly because those wars are fought on TOS galleries.

Something to keep in mind is that content should aim to be as versatile and flexible as it can be for what it is. Say you do a battle field and because you have never seen one that already has blood all over it you go ahead and texture that in. You may save a few people some time but odds are good that because your forcing your vision of a post battle field ground your going to loose more sales than you gain. Your telling the end user "this is where the blood was spilled" and "this is how much blood there was". What if they want it for animation and they need a pre battle scene? What if they want minimal battle in the foreground where you went heavy on the blood and they want the main battle in the background? The content creators job shouldn't be to tell the artist what their vision is but to help facilitate or inspire one.

Khory_D posted at 8:25AM Mon, 26 October 2015 - #4235064

_Lets say I make a female character for DAZ Studio. I couldn't sell my female at DAZ.com and I see DAZes advertisement every where. DAZ has multiple female characters with multiple venders supporting them and auto fit so any out fit fits any DAZ female.

I am going to make a minor clarification here, as there seems to be some confusion, not based on what Khory is saying, but in general in the thread. Autofit is for transfer of clothing between figures (Genesis 2 Female to Genesis 2 Male for example or Genesis 2 Female to Genesis 3 female.). When the clothing is used on the same base figure with different morphs. (Victoria 7 to Bethany for example) that isn't Autofit but Morph Projection.

Seems to me there's a lot of Daz vendors on the Poser forum these days with business axes to grind.

Khory_D posted at 6:03PM Tue, 27 October 2015 - #4235064

Why could you not sell a new figure at Daz? Because they do their own? Well as I have said before Daz is pretty pragmatic and if someone brought them an amazing figure and there was a way to blend it into the work flow studio users expect I think they would snap it up.

Doubt it. They're giving Studio away for free on the hopes to make money on V7. There's nothing in it for them with new figures: look at the - putting it mildly - lukewarm reception anything HiveWire3D creates is getting. They would be indefensibly stupid to even consider another figure.

I'm a Poser user. I was a DS user, but gave up for reasons others have outlined eloquently above. Personally, I don't see V4 as a Daz product anymore since their latest Studio doesn't support it very well: it's all about V7, now (and making money... oh, I've put a LOT of money in Saz coffers, in the thousands) so I'm happy to use V4WM because despite the somewhat ordinary mesh, the work Diogenes did with it was exemplary.

I also use Dawn, albeit to a lesser degree.

I give stuff away these days (you'll need a .png for that, available at the bottom of this page ).

One of the best posts on this thread was by Dale B. I got into Poser (and Rendo) somewhere around 2006 - does that qualify me as a forum-fossil? Absolutely, the cottage industry started with a lot of imagination and WOW-look-at-this! stuff, doing things people thought impossible. I mean, just think: writing a script that allows you to build physically-accurate shaders! Imagine that! All within Poser.

The imagination is still there. But it's a bit obscured by business objectives of competitive-product individuals. Seems a shame, really.

drifterlee posted at 5:53AM Tue, 27 October 2015 - #4235241

I do not want Poser to die, and if everyone abandons V4 and other figures that work in Poser that is what will happen. I am worried about all the content being made of the latest batch of Daz-only characters. I don't even want to learn to use Daz. Studio. Long live Poser!!!!!!

And that is the issue that needs to be clubbed to death, buried in a tar pit, set ablaze, sown with salt, nuked from orbit til it glows then shot in the dark. -Then- we get serious. DAZ and its products are not Poser's life. It is, in fact, the other way around. There would be no such thing as DAZ Studios if not for Poser; it was a spin off from Zygote, they who make high priced, high quality medical meshes and contract work. They did Posette, the return was good, and the user base around P4 clamored for more. There are many reasons told as to why DAZ spun off from Zygote, including that Zygote didn't like the some of the backlash that the redheaded stepchild of CG was getting back then. Ancient history now.

What has happened in the past with the shedding of one group or another? Someone has come in and filled the void. There was the The Great Faery Purge (Eeew, its disguised kiddy pron!), and names like Thorne went bye bye. Other vendors and creators filled the void. When Menhdi went off and created Poser Pros, same thing happened; names went there, exclusively. New vendors filled the void. Anyone remember Dan Cortopassi? Dacort's stuff, while using P4 tech levels, was and is magnificent. No one has approached his mermaid tails to this day. No knees there; the tails flex like a fish's. Geometry switching on the tail itself. You turn off the figure's legs and conform the tail, and you have yourself a merperson. Add modern shaders to the old texture maps and you get an amazing look. Sixus has been as still makes Poser figures. Syyd is still creating her little black heart away over at RDNA. The problem isn't lack of content creators; its quite literally having a death grip on DAZ as some kind of holy provider. Or at least on its products as some holy grail. (and that sound you hear is arteries hardening as the forum fossils hears names from years agone, and realizes that Oh My God it -has- been that long.....)

I animate. Mesh is nothing but a resource to me. I work in Poser because I know it, it handles basic file formats that can be made to work in just about anything so swapping resources is much easier. I admittedly am doing more work in iClone now just because of the better animation controls; but its still a game engine based program with game engine trade offs. And the motions are ported right back into Poser where I can go straight to Vue 2015. I have no intention of not using the V4 resource; but I also use V3-2-1 and the Stephanies, Micheals, and all the other family members, Posette, all of Dacort's figures (Natalia 1 & 2, Natrixa, Mariko, the clothes, the tails, Echidna, etc), another 20 or so figure from the past and present, the creatures that Sixus 1 has done, Davo's dungeon packs (take a jackhammer dildo, put a weathered effect on it, put it half in a wall and hide the obviously phallic end in another protrusion, and you suddenly have a piece of hi tech engineering. It's called kit bashing, and the limits are your imagination), Dystopia, Stonemason's sets that I own, and I could go on and on for oh, 80 gigs at least.... :P

The creativity is out here, with us. Only a microscopic portion of any of the content we used was contracted. First and foremeost, nearly all of it is a labor of love, and it shows. I fully expect there to be an exodus of those who prefer the competition, or at least the competitions resources. And it will take time, but new users and content creators will come in, as its never really been about the $$$. It's been folks who wanted a challenge. People who wanted to get started in CG. Artists who tried their hand and liked it. Technicians who found a challenge (Metaform, anyone?). Even today, years after 'The Split' (would look much better with large gothic font, maybe a choral background), our little program is still the dirty secret of CG, as far too many pros and not pros use Poser because it plays well with other programs. Can take basic .obj's and turn them into dynamic cloth...and now softbody objects. And so on down the feature list. Our little swiss army knife isn't a machete.....but its a damned good swiss army knife.

And yeah, you qualify Robyn. Maybe not calcified all the way through, like those of us who remember PFO, but you are definitely kept in a drawer in a humidity controlled room. ;)

RobynsVeil posted at 7:28AM Tue, 27 October 2015 - #4235476

I'm a Poser user. I was a DS user, but gave up for reasons others have outlined eloquently above. Personally, I don't see V4 as a Daz product anymore since their latest >Studio doesn't support it very well: it's all about V7, now.

Please explain how Daz Studio does not support V4. It actually adds the ability to project morphs that are not present in the clothing with a right click.

bhoins posted at 12:28AM Wed, 28 October 2015 - #4235499

RobynsVeil posted at 7:28AM Tue, 27 October 2015 - #4235476

I'm a Poser user. I was a DS user, but gave up for reasons others have outlined eloquently above. Personally, I don't see V4 as a Daz product anymore since their latest >Studio doesn't support it very well: it's all about V7, now.

Please explain how Daz Studio does not support V4. It actually adds the ability to project morphs that are not present in the clothing with a right click.

Yes. Please explain. I use V4 in Daz Studio all the time. And with the new iRay rendering engine, her characters and outfits have never looked better. There is very little difference using her in DS or Poser.

In Poser we've come to expect V4 to work much better than it does in Studio, because of deals like V4wmas, V4-WM, X&M's Perfect, i13's Overhaul, etc.

Hmmm. I'm going to backtrack from some earlier statements. Daz Connect (upcoming cloud based verification for content -- similar to Steam) is going to completely end any hopes for Poser compatibility with new Daz 4.9+ content, as** it looks like** this new content will only work in DS and in those apps that DS has a bridge with.

I'm not sure whether this means that V4 or Dawn (or both) is going to get a sudden new breath of life, or whether it's the best news SM and Poser users will get this year, or what? Still digesting it.

Hmm yes. Encryption, cloud-based and DRM? Three words many people do NOT like. Totally not surprised to see Daz moving in that direction, tho what effect it will have for Poser is still uncertain. I don't think it will cause more users to move to Studio tho, quite possibly the opposite. I wouldn't leave V4 just yet ;) (but then I never leave any figures, they all have a use for me)

Apparently Smith Micro and DAZ managements are locked into a no holds barred challenge to discover who is going to make the most retarded choices. Smith Micro hit first, with a crippled Cycles, DAZ responded with DRM. I am waiting to see whether Smith Micro will concede defeat or up the game. In the mean time, this weekend I will start an assessment program about the viability of a non-Poser, non-Studio strategy.

I doubt that many people will go back to Poser but I think that a consistent amount of current DAZ customers will pass 4.9. Since in the past DAZ has already gone back on bad decisions (e.g. the one-mesh G1 vs. the sensible male/female mesh pair) it might be possible that in a couple of years DAZ will go back to an open approach.

bevans84 posted at 8:22AM Wed, 28 October 2015 - #4235598

In Poser we've come to expect V4 to work much better than it does in Studio, because of deals like V4wmas, V4-WM, X&M's Perfect, i13's Overhaul, etc.

Well, since I've been using V4 with X&M's Perfect morphs and some of i13's squish products for some time now, in DAZ Studio, that's not really an issue. True, DS doesn't have access to the weight-mapped figures, but if I need better bending, I'll use my Genesis 2 figures.

chaecuna posted at 11:52AM Wed, 28 October 2015 - #4235618

Apparently Smith Micro and DAZ managements are locked into a no holds barred challenge to discover who is going to make the most retarded choices. Smith Micro hit first, with a crippled Cycles, DAZ responded with DRM. I am waiting to see whether Smith Micro will concede defeat or up the game. In the mean time, this weekend I will start an assessment program about the viability of a non-Poser, non-Studio strategy.

If your not going to use DAZ Poser .then what app or app's are you going to replace them with ?

atozed posted at 11:56AM Wed, 28 October 2015 - #4235619

bevans84 posted at 8:22AM Wed, 28 October 2015 - #4235598

In Poser we've come to expect V4 to work much better than it does in Studio, because of deals like V4wmas, V4-WM, X&M's Perfect, i13's Overhaul, etc.

Well, since I've been using V4 with X&M's Perfect morphs and some of i13's squish products for some time now, in DAZ Studio, that's not really an issue. True, DS doesn't have access to the weight-mapped figures, but if I need better bending, I'll use my Genesis 2 figures.

Wait don't DAZ Studio have weight maps n JCM ?

...

As long as they don't start with dongles. I'm good.

Houdini ,SmithMicro MS5,Autodesk ,Adobe All have a something web connection. maybe zBrush also .I don't really care. Some asked if they could monitor how I use there app's .I said sure ,Anything to make the App's better.

but anyways the web connections aren't going away.

so we get use to them or go back to charcoal on cave walls.

but since I use a cell phone n on the web. I no there's no such thing as privacy.

atozed posted at 11:23AM Wed, 28 October 2015 - #4235619

Well, since I've been using V4 with X&M's Perfect morphs and some of i13's squish products for some time now, in DAZ Studio, that's not really an issue. True, DS doesn't have access to the weight-mapped figures, but if I need better bending, I'll use my Genesis 2 figures.

IMO, this Smith-Micro - DAZ software war is just silly, especially since it's my opinion that the entire 3d hobby market is shrinking, big time. The winner will be whoever can come up with an application that makes pron figures on a smart phone. :-)

By the way, the best V4 setup for Studio IMO is Erogenesis's Lali. For poser I like V4WM with my favorite Lali morphs.

RorrKonn posted at 9:10AM Thu, 29 October 2015 - #4235657

If your not going to use DAZ Poser .then what app or app's are you going to replace them with ?

Yesterday I made a checklist and discovered that the thing might be easier than expected: you have to migrate meshes and morphs, materials, rigging and weightmapping.

Materials are simple: e.g. when you have a skin shader, the only difference between a V4 leg and G3F face are texture maps so it is a question of building a texture-based shaders library and you can kiss Firefly/Iray good bye. E.g., see mcjTeleblender which makes a more than decent job at bringing into Blender/Cycles Studio materials.

Meshes are and morphs are just data, if you parse Poser OBJ/CR2/HR2 or Studio DUFs you can mechanically export the lot into standard OBJ files that can go everywhere.

Rigging and weightmappings are certainly the most complex parts but I presume that if you go from Poser/Studio into a more powerful app it will "only" be question of blood, sweat and tears.

Add some (likely much more than some) scripting and... Yippee ki-yay, motherfuckers!

P.S.: software developer by profession. I know what I am talking about and I am enough pissed off about the actions of the lowlives that Ton Roosendaal described in a tweet as "The percentage of marketing specialists who identify themselves as such, but who are idiots - is probably the highest of any profession" to be spurred in action.

_>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>"If your not going to use DAZ Poser .then what app or app's are you going to replace them with ?....... Yesterday I made a checklist and discovered that the thing might be easier than expected: you have to migrate meshes and morphs, materials, rigging and weightmapping............see mcjTeleblender which makes a more than decent job at bringing into Blender/Cycles Studio materials. Meshes are and morphs are just data, if you parse Poser OBJ/CR2/HR2 or Studio DUFs you can mechanically export the lot into standard OBJ files that can go everywhere. Rigging and weightmappings are certainly the most

complex parts but I presume that if you go from Poser/Studio into a more powerful app it will "only" be question of blood, sweat and tears." <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<_

And lets be honest....Money also From the very beginning of my poser usage (Fractal designs poser2) ,I only ever saw poser and later Daz studio as a figure resource for other

programs.

I use the interposer pro plugin with Maxon

Cinema4D to read/load my poser runtimes Directly in Cinema4D for fully functional poser

figures in C4D for rendering of animations.

I use Reallusion's Iclone Pro to create realtime

Character animation DATA to retarget to Daz

Genesis & Pose6& pro 2014figures.

From the Daz/ Genesis Side there is the Export

.obj with textures and MDD out (point level animation Data)

Back in C4D I use the Riptide pro plugin to load obj with textures retained and apply MDD Data to get the Hollow genesis

mesh moving exactly the way he/she was in Iclone with Daz mimic lipsynch & all

....two lazy mouse clicks and that Genesis figure I

open GL animation preview rendered in Daz studio

is ready to render in a pro pipeline in Maxon

Cinema4D

Find a Mistake..Want to make a change??

pop over to DS make the tweak Export new MDD file and apply to waiting mesh in Cinema4D

What about Dynamic Clothing ?? well two options. Create simulation in poser Export Series of object

files.Save animated pose file of the Actor who wears the clothing

I Cinema4D Use interposer pro to import and

Compile the series of files into ONE Animated clothing mesh in C4D Load poser figure apply animated pose file and render poser figure in C4D with dynamic cloth mesh Following exactly.

or use the free script for Daz Studio that acheive the same result for said series of poser obj files in Daz studio

IRay Daz studio ??? Lovely, Smart move guys

but...Yaawn!! Why upgrade My hardware for IRay when there is a

Free Script to send and Convert DAZ scenes to

the FREE Blender for the Occasional PBR still Image I may do from time to time

DAZ is going DRM??? Yaaawwwn!!

As long as I can Export an .obj file I could not care

less about how content is managed within Daz studio itself or poser for that matter. I dont render from those apps

Those programs are merely Figure&Prop

resources for My Actual CG production Application Maxon Cinema4D Studio.

There are many ways to light Europe!!!

wolf359 posted at 4:48PM Thu, 29 October 2015 - #4235784

As long as I can Export an .obj file I could not care

And this is one of the issues: I am seeing mixed and confused info on the continued availability of exports from future versions of Studio. As it was written by a guy on DAZ forums, a working DRM scheme requires the prevention of export of internal (DRMed) data otherwise you export meshes, shaders, rigs etc, reimport them into a (now non DRM) package and upload it to a torrent site defying the whole issue.

Today I spent a couple of hours prototyping Cycles shaders for G3F and everything is already working decently so I will for the next weeks concentrate on the subject of rendering thru Cycles, removing the dependency on Iray. When I will have something worth being shared I will report about it.

P.S.: the real Cycles, not Poser 2016 "Cycles" (which b.t.w. will likely activation booby trapped replicating the problem).

i'm loving my V4 more than ever after reading the news about daz connect.

i only buy s/w that can run on my non-internet connected pc.

chaecuna posted at 1:21PM Thu, 29 October 2015 - #4235802

wolf359 posted at 4:48PM Thu, 29 October 2015 - #4235784

As long as I can Export an .obj file I could not care

And this is one of the issues: I am seeing mixed and confused info on the continued availability of exports from future versions of Studio. As it was written by a guy on DAZ forums, a working DRM scheme requires the prevention of export of internal (DRMed) data otherwise you export meshes, shaders, rigs etc, reimport them into a (now non DRM) package and upload it to a torrent site defying the whole issue.

Today I spent a couple of hours prototyping Cycles shaders for G3F and everything is already working decently so I will for the next weeks concentrate on the subject of rendering thru Cycles, removing the dependency on Iray. When I will have something worth being shared I will report about it.

P.S.: the real Cycles, not Poser 2016 "Cycles" (which b.t.w. will likely activation booby trapped replicating the problem).

This was asked in the daz forums and the official word from daz was no removal of obj export. Oh and good on you about cycles (real).

MistyLaraPrincess posted at 2:39PM Thu, 29 October 2015 - #4235811

i'm loving my V4 more than ever after reading the news about daz connect.

i only buy s/w that can run on my non-internet connected pc.

DS 4.9 will run on your non-internet connected computer.

Since DAZ gives Studio away for free .DAZ isn't worried about the software thief's but the meshes thiefs is another story I'm sure.

the web connections n subscriptions etc etc is the latest thief prevention idea. if it works as bad as dongles ... I'm sure DAZ is looking in to anti meshes thief prevention.

I like Blender ,Love the Price. the built in sculptor is wicked. I Love C4D ,Hate the price. I'm going to Houdini Indie.

Guess you know about Poser Fussion for LW,C4D,Max,Maya

DAZ will sometime realize the mistake that they are doing but, taking lesson from the one-mesh-that-does-not-fit-well-all (aka G1) saga, it will take at least 2 years of stubborn head kicking in the wall to make pointy hair bosses, marketdroids and bean counters to admit their mistakes, swallow their pride (aka arrogance) and go back to a more user friendly behaviour.

In the mean time, for this long and cold Westeros winter, I will follow wolf359 wise strategy: get everything possible for G2F/M (which b.t.w. can use V4/M4 textures), backup 4.8, learn to create content for 4.8 and, this is my addition, offload as much as possible work to Blender.

4.9 is no different that 4.8 in terms of content creation and editing. Only difference is eventually content sold at Daz's site will have Drm protection. Does not affect older content or new content created or sold elsewhere while using 4.9 since you can still use them via your content library. They might not show in smart content via Daz connect though unless you add metadata etc. EG I am in 4.9. I can still use everything the exact same. Only difference is 4.9 is much faster and stable regarding Iray and 3dL. So in a nutshell, content creation in 4.8 and 4.9 is no different. Also a lot of people are making assumptions when the drm content isn't even out yet. Again, it does not affect content sold elsewhere but only new content at Daz that will use it.

However this current 4.9 beta is a public build, and isn't recommended for content development. You will have to wait for a Publishing build, or just wait for the actual 4.9 release, or stay with 4.8 if you want. However Iray engine has changed in 4.9 so it won't look the same if content was created in 4.8, specially on skin regarding Iray.

I've no reason to walk off from V4, anymore than I have to abandon Jessie, V3, or Posette. The people who spent time making perfections for those characters did a great job, so, really, why do I even need a "new" figure? I don't particularly care to continually purchase the same things over and over again, and certainly won't purchase any "new" figure because face it -- not one of those new figures can do one thing more than the existing characters. Being "new" just doesn't cut it for me.