Razor42 posted at 11:56PM Sun, 01 November 2015 - #4236449

Also a slight misunderstanding the Daz Content encryption on products only encrypts the DS files (.duf .dsf .dat etc) so things like textures (jpgs) are not encrypted and you're free to use them in other apps even with the DC encryption enabled. So if Daz3D goes away you will only be able to use the encrypted content in the latest build of DS that was available or the unencrypted parts of the content in any app that supports them.

There's no misunderstanding about that: it's been stated clearly and repeatedly that textures won't be encrypted but the DUF/DSF files will. So DS goes down and I have all the materials for one of Stonemason's big sci-fi sets still at my disposal, but the geometry is locked up tight as a drum -- that's a pretty small consolation. At the moment, I'm still just a hobbyist, not a professional artist who earns a living from my artwork. For someone like that, that's not just money out of their pocket for content they now can't use, but possibly lost commissions, broken deadlines, etc. Not the same thing if Poser suddenly breaks and that same artist can switch over to Max or Lightwave or Blender and can use that same asset because it hasn't been encrypted.

Morpheon posted at 8:04PM Mon, 02 November 2015 - #4236452

Razor42 posted at 11:56PM Sun, 01 November 2015 - #4236449

Also a slight misunderstanding the Daz Content encryption on products only encrypts the DS files (.duf .dsf .dat etc) so things like textures (jpgs) are not encrypted and you're free to use them in other apps even with the DC encryption enabled. So if Daz3D goes away you will only be able to use the encrypted content in the latest build of DS that was available or the unencrypted parts of the content in any app that supports them.

There's no misunderstanding about that: it's been stated clearly and repeatedly that textures won't be encrypted but the DUF/DSF files will. So DS goes down and I have all the materials for one of Stonemason's big sci-fi sets still at my disposal, but the geometry is locked up tight as a drum -- that's a pretty small consolation. At the moment, I'm still just a hobbyist, not a professional artist who earns a living from my artwork. For someone like that, that's not just money out of their pocket for content they now can't use, but possibly lost commissions, broken deadlines, etc. Not the same thing if Poser suddenly breaks and that same artist can switch over to Max or Lightwave or Blender and can use that same asset because it hasn't been encrypted.

DS can't go down under this form of DRM ( It just doesn't work that way), if you have DS installed and unlocked or a backup of of 4.8. your content will always be usable in DS. DAZ3D Content servers and the store in a worse case scenario potentially could go down though. You could just boot up your version of DS and export the items to obj's and begin a Poser "Shudders", Blender, max rebuild. Daz3D is also talking about a Poison Pill worst case scenario that will unlock all encryption as well but that does rely on a little trust.

Morpheon posted at 8:10PM Mon, 02 November 2015 - #4236452

Razor42 posted at 11:56PM Sun, 01 November 2015 - #4236449

Also a slight misunderstanding the Daz Content encryption on products only encrypts the DS files (.duf .dsf .dat etc) so things like textures (jpgs) are not encrypted and you're free to use them in other apps even with the DC encryption enabled. So if Daz3D goes away you will only be able to use the encrypted content in the latest build of DS that was available or the unencrypted parts of the content in any app that supports them.

There's no misunderstanding about that: it's been stated clearly and repeatedly that textures won't be encrypted but the DUF/DSF files will. So DS goes down and I have all the materials for one of Stonemason's big sci-fi sets still at my disposal, but the geometry is locked up tight as a drum -- that's a pretty small consolation. At the moment, I'm still just a hobbyist, not a professional artist who earns a living from my artwork. For someone like that, that's not just money out of their pocket for content they now can't use, but possibly lost commissions, broken deadlines, etc. Not the same thing if Poser suddenly breaks and that same artist can switch over to Max or Lightwave or Blender and can use that same asset because it hasn't been encrypted.

Also do you think 90 percent of Poser content will just roll over to blender? If Poser is bricked your likely to lose a lot more tbh

Razor42 posted at 12:05AM Mon, 02 November 2015 - #4236449

IF SM goes bye-bye you've got a 6 month window at most till your program is bricked in my understanding so it would seem the risk to you is much higher in this form of DRM implementation.

Six months is a helluva big window in which to learn a new app, to port your assets over, etc., not to mention that Poser continues to run during those six months, so your workflow isn't disrupted immediately. Not hearing anything like that from DAZ other than vague assurances (which they have absolutely NO WAY of knowing that they'll be able to fulfill should the unthinkable occur) that they'll automatically unlock all encrypted content should the need arise.

Morpheon posted at 8:14PM Mon, 02 November 2015 - #4236457

Razor42 posted at 12:05AM Mon, 02 November 2015 - #4236449

IF SM goes bye-bye you've got a 6 month window at most till your program is bricked in my understanding so it would seem the risk to you is much higher in this form of DRM implementation.

Six months is a helluva big window in which to learn a new app, to port your assets over, etc., not to mention that Poser continues to run during those six months, so your workflow isn't disrupted immediately. Not hearing anything like that from DAZ other than vague assurances (which they have absolutely NO WAY of knowing that they'll be able to fulfill should the unthinkable occur) that they'll automatically unlock all encrypted content should the need arise.

SM has a time frame, there is no time frame for DS. If Daz3d disappears you can continue to use all of your content and DS as normal under the conditions I described above. If SM disappears the clock starts ticking with a definite end to Poser use at the lapse of it. 6 months is best case also, it could happen literally overnight with Poser locking you out.

Razor42 posted at 12:13AM Mon, 02 November 2015 - #4236454

DS can't go down under this form of DRM, if you have it installed and unlocked or a backup of of 4.8. it just doesn't work that way. DAZ3D Content servers and the store in a worse case scenario potentially could go down though. You could just boot up your version of DS and export the items to obj's and begin a Poser "Shudders", Blender, max rebuild. Daz3D is also talking about a Poison Pill worst case scenario that will unlock all encryption as well but that does rely on a little trust.

No one is saying that the DRM will kill the DS app, just that, should the authentication fail, your content is immediately inaccessible; by contrast, should your authentication with Poser fail, your content is still accessible via other apps. Big difference.

And we've already pointed out that -- DAZ's assurances to the contrary -- maintaining export capability is a back-door way to circumvent DRM, fully on simpler items that don't really on complex morphs and rigging, and at least partially on more complex models and figures. If they're truly serious about all this, I really don't see how they can leave it in.

Morpheon posted at 8:18PM Mon, 02 November 2015 - #4236457

Razor42 posted at 12:05AM Mon, 02 November 2015 - #4236449

IF SM goes bye-bye you've got a 6 month window at most till your program is bricked in my understanding so it would seem the risk to you is much higher in this form of DRM implementation.

Six months is a helluva big window in which to learn a new app, to port your assets over, etc., not to mention that Poser continues to run during those six months, so your workflow isn't disrupted immediately. Not hearing anything like that from DAZ other than vague assurances (which they have absolutely NO WAY of knowing that they'll be able to fulfill should the unthinkable occur) that they'll automatically unlock all encrypted content should the need arise.

One other thing Daz3D are going from strength to strength and are financially stable. SM and in turn Poser .... Not so good in either respect tbh

Razor42 posted at 12:20AM Mon, 02 November 2015 - #4236458

SM has a time frame, there is no time frame for DS. If Daz3d disappears you can continue to use all of your content and DS as normal under the conditions I described above. If SM disappears the clock starts ticking with a definite end to Poser use at the lapse of it. 6 months is best case also, it could happen literally overnight with Poser locking you out.

Exactly: there IS a definite window with Poser which can be counted on, not vague assurances with no guarantees, as DAZ is offering. If -- once all content was encrypted -- the DAZ servers vanished off the face of the Earth, there would be no unencrypted content available to distribute and no way to distribute a decryption key. Or maybe it's just as simple as someone else takes possession of those servers (and the unencrypted content AND the decryption key, should one exist) through a bankruptcy and has no legal obligation to fulfill DAZ's promises. As I said, that involves a degree of trust that I don't feel DAZ deserves.

Razor42 posted at 12:27AM Mon, 02 November 2015 - #4236460

One other thing Daz3D are going from strength to strength and are financially stable. SM and in turn Poser .... Not so good in either respect tbh

Excuse me, but weren't you the one a few posts ago saying that we're not supposed to speculate on SM's financial viability? So why are you doing it now??

And in any case, I should support a supposedly financially-sound company that spits in its customers face on fairly regular basis for the sake of its shiny toys, over supporting a possibly less-financially-secure company that at least treats its customers decently? I have some issues with SM, but it's mainly related to them keeping Poser in stuck in the 1990s, but they've always been courteous and treated me fairly -- I can't even begin to say the same thing for DAZ since the management change-over.

Morpheon posted at 8:21PM Mon, 02 November 2015 - #4236459

Razor42 posted at 12:13AM Mon, 02 November 2015 - #4236454

DS can't go down under this form of DRM, if you have it installed and unlocked or a backup of of 4.8. it just doesn't work that way. DAZ3D Content servers and the store in a worse case scenario potentially could go down though. You could just boot up your version of DS and export the items to obj's and begin a Poser "Shudders", Blender, max rebuild. Daz3D is also talking about a Poison Pill worst case scenario that will unlock all encryption as well but that does rely on a little trust.

No one is saying that the DRM will kill the DS app, just that, should the authentication fail, your content is immediately inaccessible; by contrast, should your authentication with Poser fail, your content is still accessible via other apps. Big difference.

And we've already pointed out that -- DAZ's assurances to the contrary -- maintaining export capability is a back-door way to circumvent DRM, fully on simpler items that don't really on complex morphs and rigging, and at least partially on more complex models and figures. If they're truly serious about all this, I really don't see how they can leave it in.

This is becoming circular now, pretty much everything there we just went over.

At the end of the day you're going to need to pick a horse. Honestly if you think that you're going into the future with Poser is more promising and you are going to be able to port a Poser figure/mat/pose/morph/etc over for use in other apps easily and maintain the quality and usability of a DAZ figure/Pose/scene/etc. That your prerogative.

But a good deal of content at Daz3D these days is not going to be an easy port to other apps, (especially Poser) DRM or not. And yes both Poser and Daz3D have DRM.

Morpheon posted at 8:28PM Mon, 02 November 2015 - #4236462

Razor42 posted at 12:27AM Mon, 02 November 2015 - #4236460

One other thing Daz3D are going from strength to strength and are financially stable. SM and in turn Poser .... Not so good in either respect tbh

Excuse me, but weren't you the one a few posts ago saying that we're not supposed to speculate on SM's financial viability? So why are you doing it now??

Because it was relevant to the line of conversation and you're excused ;)

Also linking a P&L is not speculation.

Razor42 posted at 12:32AM Mon, 02 November 2015 - #4236463

But a good deal of content at Daz3D these days is not going to be an easy port to other apps DRM or not. And yes both Poser and Daz3D have DRM.

What DRM exists in Poser is about as unintrusive and universal as you'll find in software, and it at least has the benefit of not locking up your content, unlike DS -- a crucial distinction.

Any ability to port content from DS to other apps is still a chance to circumvent DRM. Stonemason sets typically have no morphs or rigging, so exporting one of those to OBJ and then distributing that OBJ with the unencrypted texture files -- ta da! Congratulations -- you've just pirated DRM'd DAZ content.

Morpheon posted at 12:41AM Mon, 02 November 2015 - #4236468

Razor42 posted at 12:38AM Mon, 02 November 2015 - #4236464

Because it was relevant to the line of conversation

In what way? Because at that moment, we had been talking about what happens in worst-case scenarios, not how any of this affects the bottom line for either company -- you just came out of left field with that.

Razor42 posted at 12:43AM Mon, 02 November 2015 - #4236454

if you have DS installed and unlocked or a backup of of 4.8. your content will always be usable in DS.

You will NOT be able to simply roll-back your DS installation after the encryption goes live. If your post-encryption copy of DS locks you out, any encrypted content will NOT function in an earlier version, because the ability to decrypt that content does not exist in earlier versions.

Morpheon posted at 8:43PM Mon, 02 November 2015 - #4236469

Morpheon posted at 12:41AM Mon, 02 November 2015 - #4236468

Razor42 posted at 12:38AM Mon, 02 November 2015 - #4236464

Because it was relevant to the line of conversation

In what way? Because at that moment, we had been talking about what happens in worst-case scenarios, not how any of this affects the bottom line for either company -- you just came out of left field with that.

Forgive me I thought your issue was what happens to your content if Daz3D becomes unviable. Which rational leads to the question of, if you migrate to Poser what happens to your content if SM becomes unviable. I wasn't talking about bottom lines I was talking about risk mitigation.

Also just my opinion but speculating about ways to pirate content is probably inadvisable.

Morpheon posted at 8:50PM Mon, 02 November 2015 - #4236470

Razor42 posted at 12:43AM Mon, 02 November 2015 - #4236454

if you have DS installed and unlocked or a backup of of 4.8. your content will always be usable in DS.

You will NOT be able to simply roll-back your DS installation after the encryption goes live. If your post-encryption copy of DS locks you out, any encrypted content will NOT function in an earlier version, because the ability to decrypt that content does not exist in earlier versions.

Well you're right there any encrypted content would not work in non keyed versions of DS. Though no content 'period' works in a bricked Poser including your own files. Unless of course daz3d are true to there word and remove the encryption in worst case scenario or an enterprising programmer can script a decrypter for the files in the event the licensing preventing that is void. ( If that worst case happened to DAZ3D)

Razor42 posted at 1:00AM Mon, 02 November 2015 - #4236471

Forgive me I thought your issue was what happens to your content if Daz3D becomes unviable. Which rational leads to the question of, if you migrate to Poser what happens to your content if SM becomes unviable. I wasn't talking about bottom lines I was talking about risk mitigation.

Also just my opinion but speculating about ways to pirate content is probably inadvisable.

Sorry -- it's storming here pretty good right now, and the power went out briefly.

As far as risk mitigation goes, if SM goes down for good, I will at least have the option of porting what Poser content I can to other apps (Max, C4D, etc.), and LOTS of Poser content is other app compatible (especially if I shop beforehand with the very consideration in mind); on the other hand, if DAZ goes down for good, any DRM content I have is also likely gone for good, because there is absolutely no guarantee that DAZ will or even can distribute a decryption key or unencrypted copies of my content, so the likelihood that ALL OF IT will be gone for good is way better then the likelihood I'll get it in an unencrypted format. It's a guarantee of some recoverable value versus the very real possibility of losing all value, with DAZ on the losing end of that scale.

Not advising people on how to pirate content, merely illustrating the fallacy of DAZ thinking leaving in the ability to export DRM content to other apps will keep their DRM secure. Security experts demonstrate all the time how to take down aircraft, how to rob banks, etc., and they're not thieves or terrorists, nor do they condone or encourage the actions of those who are. The exposures that they do are done in the interest of risk mitigation -- same thing here.

Razor42 posted at 1:18AM Mon, 02 November 2015 - #4236472

Though no content 'period' works in a bricked Poser including your own files.

A six month window to get up to speed with a new app with whatever content you can port versus no window and all your content encrypted and someone else holding the key? Is that even really a choice?

Unless of course daz3d are true to there word and remove the encryption in worst case scenario or an enterprising programmer can script a decrypter for the files in the event the licensing preventing that is void. ( If that worst case happened to DAZ3D)

Gee -- wouldn't that be a form of piracy? Because if someone else WERE to take possession of DAZ's servers, they'd also likely retain the rights to the content on it. And anyways, isn't that probably what's going to happen here in the next few weeks or months? Some enterprising individual is going to start posting hacked copies of DS with the encryption spoofed or bypassed in such a way that DS either doesn't bother looking for an encryption key or thinks that all keys (or even no keys) are still good keys. Then, once they figure out how to copy and distribute the files of any piece of encrypted content, anyone with a copy will be able to use that content with a defanged version of DS. That is, IF they don't figure out a way to simply decrypt the content itself.

Strange it's also storming pretty good here too :) Lets hope the power doesn't go out for a week again.

If you truly believe what you wrote above all I can do is re-quote myself. I have to say there does seem to be a conflict with the point that the DRM encryption is easy to circumvent, but I'm going to lose my content from it being encrypted. Either the DRM is ironclad and content is totally pirate proof and you may lost your content. Or in the event of a disaster there will be enough innovative individuals to help you restore their functionality. You can't have both.

My opinion is pretty obvious and my faith in Daz3D has yet to be misplaced but only you can decide what's right for you.

Razor42 posted at 12:13AM Mon, 02 November 2015 - #4236454

At the end of the day you're going to need to pick a horse. Honestly if you think that you're going into the future with Poser is more promising and you are going to be able to port a Poser figure/mat/pose/morph/etc over for use in other apps easily and maintain the quality and usability of a DAZ figure/Pose/scene/etc. That your prerogative.

Sorry, guy, but it's way too late and I have to be to work way too early. Have a good one...

Morpheon posted at 9:32PM Mon, 02 November 2015 - #4236475

Razor42 posted at 1:18AM Mon, 02 November 2015 - #4236472

Though no content 'period' works in a bricked Poser including your own files.

A six month window to get up to speed with a new app with whatever content you can port versus no window and all your content encrypted and someone else holding the key? Is that even really a choice?

Unless of course daz3d are true to there word and remove the encryption in worst case scenario or an enterprising programmer can script a decrypter for the files in the event the licensing preventing that is void. ( If that worst case happened to DAZ3D)

Gee -- wouldn't that be a form of piracy? Because if someone else WERE to take possession of DAZ's servers, they'd also likely retain the rights to the content on it. And anyways, isn't that probably what's going to happen here in the next few weeks or months? Some enterprising individual is going to start posting hacked copies of DS with the encryption spoofed or bypassed in such a way that DS either doesn't bother looking for an encryption key or thinks that all keys (or even no keys) are still good keys. Then, once they figure out how to copy and distribute the files of any piece of encrypted content, anyone with a copy will be able to use that content with a defanged version of DS. That is, IF they don't figure out a way to simply decrypt the content itself.

If any of this is true, where does it leave your issues/fears with the changes?

It's not piracy if the license is void. If someone else takes over your content will still be available right?

Also the DS hack would need to be reinstituted and circulated with each DS update which would be quite often and Daz3D could counter the hack method with each build.

Morpheon posted at 9:34PM Mon, 02 November 2015 - #4236477

Sorry, guy, but it's way too late and I have to be to work way too early. Have a good one...

Well gnight to you too "guy" :)

There's another hour of my life I won't get back

LPR001 posted at 9:42PM Mon, 02 November 2015 - #4236482

There's another hour of my life I won't get back

Lol, but think how much you learned...

You know a thread is getting long in the tooth when everybody is saying goodnight to each other. I shall remain calm until it's "Goodnight I will see you in the morning"

Lol, I actually need to attempt to get some work done tomorrow. I have a few idea's I'm looking forward to getting started with.

At least you're not firefighting the comparable thread at Daz3D.

Surprisingly things have stayed pretty civil in here for the amount of worry the changes are propagating, of course apart from the usual skirmishes.

Razor42 posted at 1:34AM Mon, 02 November 2015 - #4236476

I have to say there does seem to be a conflict with the point that the DRM encryption is easy to circumvent, but I'm going to lose my content from it being encrypted. Either >the DRM is ironclad and content is totally pirate proof and you may lost your content. Or in the event of a disaster there will be enough innovative individuals to help you >restore their functionality. You can't have both.

My opinion is pretty obvious and my faith in Daz3D has yet to be misplaced but only you can decide what's right for you.

The last thing I'll say (for now, anyways -- I REALLY gotta get to bed).

The likelihood of DAZ simply disappearing (or even just the servers) is pretty small, but disasters do happen. (New Orleans with Hurricane Katrina, the Japanese Tsunami, just about any earthquake or wildfire in California, etc.) And that's just the Acts of God-kind of stuff. Then there's the financial stuff -- I don't know how old you are, but you may or may not know about how the video game industry in the 1980s was nearly wiped out and the damage it did to some companies (Atari, Activision, etc.) that you wouldn't have thought were vulnerable (or at least would have thought were better able to weather such events). DAZ may look good on paper now -- many companies do -- and then next week, you see that they're in bankruptcy court, because they or a parent company are on the ropes financially, and all the assets -- buildings, vehicles, furnishings, SERVERS, etc. -- get seized and sold off.

When people talk about a culture change at DAZ, they're talking about a very real thing. Maybe DAZ is all hugs and kisses when you're visiting them in their offices, but I'm one of those who noticed a switch, and my experience with them has been a pretty mixed bag, which is precisely why I (and a lot of other people) are a lot less willing to offer them the kind of trust you seem to be -- and certainly not the kind of trust that the scheme they're proposing requires. DAZ MAY do this or that IF they will or IF they can; and if they can't, then MAYBE somebody else will do this or do that (again, IF they can or IF they will) -- that's a lot of ifs and maybes -- too many to be comfortable.

Risk mitigation is PRECISELY why I'm firing up Poser now -- it's my transition tool away from DAZ Studio, with the certainty of salvaging at least SOME value rather than risking losing ALL value in DAZ's encryption scheme. And I wasn't kidding when I said I spent about $400 (or more) a month at DAZ. That money will now be going towards a new rig, a license for ZBrush 4R7 and possibly Substance Painter & Substance Designer, as well as subscriptions to Photoshop and Digital-Tutors. I'll even pick up some stuff here at Rendo that I've had on my wish-list for a while -- but not for anything that is for DS-only content and not from anyone who still sells at DAZ. It's gonna have to hurt before DAZ will listen to reason, and the only way to do that is to starve the beast.

That's it -- I'm off to bed. Have a good one, and thanks for the conversation...

Morpheon posted at 10:06PM Mon, 02 November 2015 - #4236487

Razor42 posted at 1:34AM Mon, 02 November 2015 - #4236476

I have to say there does seem to be a conflict with the point that the DRM encryption is easy to circumvent, but I'm going to lose my content from it being encrypted. Either >the DRM is ironclad and content is totally pirate proof and you may lost your content. Or in the event of a disaster there will be enough innovative individuals to help you >restore their functionality. You can't have both.

My opinion is pretty obvious and my faith in Daz3D has yet to be misplaced but only you can decide what's right for you.

The last thing I'll say (for now, anyways -- I REALLY gotta get to bed).

The likelihood of DAZ simply disappearing (or even just the servers) is pretty small, but disasters do happen. (New Orleans with Hurricane Katrina, the Japanese Tsunami, just about any earthquake or wildfire in California, etc.) And that's just the Acts of God-kind of stuff. Then there's the financial stuff -- I don't know how old you are, but you may or may not know about how the video game industry in the 1980s was nearly wiped out and the damage it did to some companies (Atari, Activision, etc.) that you wouldn't have thought were vulnerable (or at least would have thought were better able to weather such events). DAZ may look good on paper now -- many companies do -- and then next week, you see that they're in bankruptcy court, because they or a parent company are on the ropes financially, and all the assets -- buildings, vehicles, furnishings, SERVERS, etc. -- get seized and sold off.

When people talk about a culture change at DAZ, they're talking about a very real thing. Maybe DAZ is all hugs and kisses when you're visiting them in their offices, but I'm one of those who noticed a switch, and my experience with them has been a pretty mixed bag, which is precisely why I (and a lot of other people) are a lot less willing to offer them the kind of trust you seem to be -- and certainly not the kind of trust that the scheme they're proposing requires. DAZ MAY do this or that IF they will or IF they can; and if they can't, then MAYBE somebody else will do this or do that (again, IF they can or IF they will) -- that's a lot of ifs and maybes -- too many to be comfortable.

Risk mitigation is PRECISELY why I'm firing up Poser now -- it's my transition tool away from DAZ Studio, with the certainty of salvaging at least SOME value rather than risking losing ALL value in DAZ's encryption scheme. And I wasn't kidding when I said I spent about $400 (or more) a month at DAZ. That money will now be going towards a new rig, a license for ZBrush 4R7 and possibly Substance Painter & Substance Designer, as well as subscriptions to Photoshop and Digital-Tutors. I'll even pick up some stuff here at Rendo that I've had on my wish-list for a while -- but not for anything that is for DS-only content and not from anyone who still sells at DAZ. It's gonna have to hurt before DAZ will listen to reason, and the only way to do that is to starve the beast.

That's it -- I'm off to bed. Have a good one, and thanks for the conversation...

Night mate,

Well it's sad to see you go but you seem like you've made a decision and I can respect that, also the door isn't one way. Hopefully time will ease your concerns and there will be a path for you to return in the future. I hope you acquire all those things on your wishlist DS developers are always in demand ;)

Thanks for the convo,

OT Warning Speaking of the 80s computer issue have you seen http://www.frombedroomstobillions.com it provides some great insights into the issues that created the fall of such mighty publishing houses and is a good trip down nostalgia lane. Here is the trailer if your interested https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KnIdkHIMbOQ

Razor42 posted at 9:36PM Mon, 02 November 2015 - #4236486

Lol, I actually need to attempt to get some work done tomorrow. I have a few idea's I'm looking forward to getting started with.

At least you're not firefighting the comparable thread at Daz3D.

Surprisingly things have stayed pretty civil in here for the amount of worry the changes are propagating, of course apart from the usual skirmishes.

As long as it remain civil and product bashing in very minimal and kept to the upset over the changes I am fine with it. There is a difference between opinions that is a forum in nature. I am satisfied everybody is still alive and not being picked on for their views in a nasty way. This could go on for a while I am thinking Superbowl party the odd wedding and birthdays to celebrate. It is best we all get along

Razor42 posted at 5:25AM Mon, 02 November 2015 - #4236324

parkdalegardener posted at 1:39AM Mon, 02 November 2015 - #4236313

As long as Studio can do unencrypted exports then any DRM on imported content is moot.

So to export a figure as you describe you would need to export the mesh, then the morphs, the weight maps, the JCM's, Then rebuild the figure from the exports, redo the ERC settings, reattach all the texture maps and surface settings. Make sure all the naming conventions are correct or it won't work with other content, Re-save each preset option, reassociate all of the thumbs. Recreate the metadata. Forget any HD settings, Extract the data and create a new product directory wrapper. And at the end deliver it all bug free with no errors working to the same standard as a Daz3D QA'd product.

Wouldn't it be easier to just create a product and sell it at Daz3D?

I already have G1 and G2 running as Poser native. No DS needed. Took 10 minutes. I have props from DAZ that were in Studio formats when purchased. They are working in Lightwave, Poser, and Vue. Took less than 5 minutes. I have G3 running in Lightwave with a Lightwave rig. That too almost 45 minutes. It has a facial rig and uses the same skinning method as Studio. It is no where as difficult as you would have people believe to transfer assets from one format to another unless you lock up the import/export via encryption. People are not forced to create and sell at DAZ. They can use purchased assets in other software. I have no interest in reselling your mesh or pirating it online and that is the attitude that most from DAZ seem to be putting forward. If you are not using our assets directly in Studio then you are a pirate out to rip off DAZ by offering their products elsewhere to the masses or are using them in a format that DAZ isn't getting paid for. Remember; the mesh in Studio was not built in Studio.

Razor42 posted at 11:38AM Mon, 02 November 2015 - #4236420

This all adds up to, don't try as it can't inevitably be stopped? Unfortunately as a business this is a pretty flimsy option and I definitely wouldn't be putting you on the payroll for advice in this area. I'm having trouble discerning your actual point in all of this other than what I just stated, which is doing nothing, is better than something/anything.

You're trolling and making things up again about me suggesting DAZ shouldn't go ahead with DRM. The only thing I've said is that DRM has failed because it's been reverse engineered. And as long as there are those who are willing to crack DRM it will remain unfit for purpose. And I wouldn't employ you either. Why?, because you're the most unconvincing PR guru I've ever come across

I think Black__Days just pretty clearly explained above how DRM can be effective if not %100 ironclad guarantee forever of contents security. No one is talking about locking a file up for ever, I'm not sure anyone even thinks this is currently possible.

Many tech savvy people will disagree. All it takes is a simple internet search to know DRM has failed on many fronts. You know this but still troll this debate with your one sided opinion

Why make laws if people will only break them? How effective is a law if it is broken?

DRM isn't a law!!

The one point you have made abundantly clear is YOU DON"T LIKE DRM.

Wrong! I'm all for it, if it worked that is, and you're trolling again because you've clearly lost the debate. Can I suggest you brush up on your debating skills for future reference

parkdalegardener posted at 11:13PM Mon, 02 November 2015 - #4236490

Razor42 posted at 5:25AM Mon, 02 November 2015 - #4236324

parkdalegardener posted at 1:39AM Mon, 02 November 2015 - #4236313

As long as Studio can do unencrypted exports then any DRM on imported content is moot.

So to export a figure as you describe you would need to export the mesh, then the morphs, the weight maps, the JCM's, Then rebuild the figure from the exports, redo the ERC settings, reattach all the texture maps and surface settings. Make sure all the naming conventions are correct or it won't work with other content, Re-save each preset option, reassociate all of the thumbs. Recreate the metadata. Forget any HD settings, Extract the data and create a new product directory wrapper. And at the end deliver it all bug free with no errors working to the same standard as a Daz3D QA'd product.

Wouldn't it be easier to just create a product and sell it at Daz3D?

I already have G1 and G2 running as Poser native. No DS needed. Took 10 minutes. I have props from DAZ that were in Studio formats when purchased. They are working in Lightwave, Poser, and Vue. Took less than 5 minutes. I have G3 running in Lightwave with a Lightwave rig. That too almost 45 minutes. It has a facial rig and uses the same skinning method as Studio. It is no where as difficult as you would have people believe to transfer assets from one format to another unless you lock up the import/export via encryption. People are not forced to create and sell at DAZ. They can use purchased assets in other software. I have no interest in reselling your mesh or pirating it online and that is the attitude that most from DAZ seem to be putting forward. If you are not using our assets directly in Studio then you are a pirate out to rip off DAZ by offering their products elsewhere to the masses or are using them in a format that DAZ isn't getting paid for. Remember; the mesh in Studio was not built in Studio.

As far as im aware none of what your describing will be affected by encryption of the product files. Export options will remain unchanged with DS you will still br able to do all of that. And i must say the level of skill your describing is probably beyond the scope of what the product encryption is meant to counter as far as piracy goes. What i was saying is there is more to g3 than just a mesh. And rebuilding it the same as the original product is different then porting the mesh to another platform.

maxgrafix posted at 11:20PM Mon, 02 November 2015 - #4236492

Razor42 posted at 11:38AM Mon, 02 November 2015 - #4236420

This all adds up to, don't try as it can't inevitably be stopped? Unfortunately as a business this is a pretty flimsy option and I definitely wouldn't be putting you on the payroll for advice in this area. I'm having trouble discerning your actual point in all of this other than what I just stated, which is doing nothing, is better than something/anything.

You're trolling and making things up again about me suggesting DAZ shouldn't go ahead with DRM. The only thing I've said is that DRM has failed because it's been reverse engineered. And as long as there are those who are willing to crack DRM it will remain unfit for purpose. And I wouldn't employ you either. Why?, because you're the most unconvincing PR guru I've ever come across

I think Black__Days just pretty clearly explained above how DRM can be effective if not %100 ironclad guarantee forever of contents security. No one is talking about locking a file up for ever, I'm not sure anyone even thinks this is currently possible.

Many tech savvy people will disagree. All it takes is a simple internet search to know DRM has failed on many fronts. You know this but still troll this debate with your one sided opinion

Why make laws if people will only break them? How effective is a law if it is broken?

DRM isn't a law!!

The one point you have made abundantly clear is YOU DON"T LIKE DRM.

Wrong! I'm all for it, if it worked that is, and you're trolling again because you've clearly lost the debate. Can I suggest you brush up on your debating skills for future reference

Lol, okay mate :D getting a little personal aren't we?

Razor42 posted at 12:22PM Mon, 02 November 2015 - #4236494

Lol, okay mate :D getting a little personal aren't we?

You've been doing that yourself in the form of constant badgering. If you can't push a one sided opinion on people who know you're argument is flawed then I suggest you take a different approach. That's how a debate works.

@parkdalegardener This is why it is all a storm in a teacup as I stated at the start of the thread.

Daz has a sales pitch "Your go to store for content store" it has all the logos Unity, Maya etc. I purchased from and a sketchy memory it's called 3D Morph character pack in Unity just a month or so ago. I also recall it saying 'From the team that manages Daz" or similar which is why I got it. Hardly the words of a company about to rip the rug out from under it's customers which is what is being claimed here. Just about everything I do with the Daz range is not inside Daz itself. In fact until I started working here it was merely a content store and a means to export the content out or make my own characters with the intention to do the same. It is a no brainer really in 6 months time 4.9 is taken up and everybody is still going about their biz all their assets they paid good money for are still in their hot little hands they will wonder what all the fuss is about. I believe Daz would not want to lose its export share as this would be considerable. Some companies have the basic user license and then the export licensing as option. I have put 1492 products through in the last 5-6 months and 1400 would have left Daz already I live in fear of my bank statements. I just can't see Daz wanting to relieve me of such fears anytime soon I think they are a little sharper than that in the Intelligence Dept.

Sigh, ok Max i will take the bait and play for a bit.

There are a few contradictions in your last statement generally within the same paragraph as the statement was made.

You're trolling and making things up again about me suggesting DAZ shouldn't go ahead with DRM. The only thing I've said is that DRM has failed because it's been reverse engineered.

Here you suggest you have no issue with DS encryption for files or DRM if you prefer. Then go on with

And as long as there are those who are willing to crack DRM it will remain unfit for purpose.

Closing the paragraph with a statement that it is unfit for purpose. It seems suggesting it is unfit for purpose and "failed" would be directly opposed to you having no problem with it.

You know this but still troll this debate with your one sided opinion

Wouldn't generally a debate consist of two parties with one sided opinions debating about the merits of there own viewpoint. So stating that someone who is involved in a debate has a one side viewpoint would pretty much describe someone who is involved in a debate.

Why make laws if people will only break them? How effective is a law if it is broken?

DRM isn't a law!!

This one was just plain evasion, im well aware DRM Isnt a law nor was that my point, which im pretty sure your well aware.

**_Wrong! I'm all for it, if it worked that is, and you're trolling again because you've clearly lost the debate.

Again this is a blatantly contradictory statement, i stated you appear to be against drm. You then proclaimed that statement as wrong! your all for it. Then added the contradictory statement "if it worked that is" imferring your not for it because you do not believe it works.

I edited out most of the name calling and overt flame baiting from your statement and just addressed your responses but i needed to leave some in as they formed part of the base statement.

Just to add, a debate doesnt work by changing your argument part way through a debate. It works by stating your case or argument adding supporting data. Raising attention to key facts of the argument. Then listening to the opposing argument respectfully. Then countering the opposing argument, again respectfully, with any valid points or drawing attention to flaws in the opposing argument. The opposing side then has an opportunity to rebuke. Then the winner of the debate is generally judged or decided by a 3rd party who give equal consideration to both sides of the debated topic. Who then goes on to decide a winner.

But that truly is a debate for another forum.

On that note, i think i have made my opinions abundantly clear in this "debate" so at this point will step aside and let it progress on its merry way and allow others to make their case.

Happy rendering all with or without DRM.

Someone send me a PM when they decide the winner ;)

Then the winner of the debate is generally judged or decided by a 3rd party - it is a tie

@maxgrafix @Razor42 Keep a level head please. - Challenge the context of the other members ramblings not the individual. Name calling is not acceptable. Members are not expected to agree on everything it would be a rather boring if you did. Just make sure respect is given from all sides. Thank You

Someone once said to me if you use the word "You" in it then it is personal. Still cracks me up everytime it springs to my mind, I use it often as it really makes a mess of someone's argument. Just tryin to think of who that was........................................................................ Wait a minute!

"@wolf359 Perhaps it is best if we don't go labelling other countries as enemy lands I doubt it would be helpful sending this thread along its merry way. Renderosity is a global website DRM is a global issue. Please keep this in mind"

Sorry perhaps I should Clarify that I mean countries that have proven themsevles to be "enemies" of U.S. Copyright laws Not going to Derail the thread further with specifics but I invite you to ask Microsoft from where they have found the greatest number of Illegal Copies of "office" or Ask Paramount where "R5" Copy or "Cam" Copy of their Latest blockbuster often originates.

back to topic "Apparently that's not a viewpoint you can relate to. DAZ is certainly not as fun of a place to deal with as it was back in 1997."

Perhaps not but as a Character animator I can attest that posers animation tools give me the exact same Experience I "enjoyed" back in 1997

(Thanking Allah for the Existence of Iclone).

Razor42 posted at 3:40PM Mon, 02 November 2015 - #4236498

Sigh, ok Max i will take the bait and play for a bit.

If you can't stand the heat....

There are a few contradictions in your last statement generally within the same paragraph as the statement was made.

I've made no contradictions. All I've said is I think DRM has failed. While You on the other hand keep implying that I'm in some way suggesting companies shouldn't protect their software, which couldn't be further from the truth

You're trolling and making things up again about me suggesting DAZ shouldn't go ahead with DRM. The only thing I've said is that DRM has failed because it's been reverse engineered.

Here you suggest you have no issue with DS encryption for files or DRM if you prefer. Then go on with

That's correct. But you kept suggesting I was in against it when I never once suggest that I was!

And as long as there are those who are willing to crack DRM it will remain unfit for purpose.

Closing the paragraph with a statement that it is unfit for purpose. It seems suggesting it is unfit for purpose and "failed" would be directly opposed to you having no problem with it.

DRM has been broken, cracked, removed from content. Just accept it and move on

You know this but still troll this debate with your one sided opinion

Wouldn't generally a debate consist of two parties with one sided opinions debating about the merits of there own viewpoint. So stating that someone who is involved in a debate has a one side viewpoint would pretty much describe someone who is involved in a debate.

You refuse to aknowledge that DRM has been broken which it has (And you know it has) and have showed a sleight of hand in suggesting I some how hate DRM. What more is there to say except spin away!

Why make laws if people will only break them? How effective is a law if it is broken?

DRM isn't a law!!

This one was just plain evasion, im well aware DRM Isnt a law nor was that my point, which im pretty sure your well aware.

I'm aware of your ploy to distort the debate

**_Wrong! I'm all for it, if it worked that is, and you're trolling again because you've clearly lost the debate.

Again this is a blatantly contradictory statement, i stated you appear to be against drm. You then proclaimed that statement as wrong! your all for it. Then added the contradictory statement "if it worked that is" imferring your not for it because you do not believe it works.

It was you who made insinuations by implying I was against DRM when I never said I was. Do I really have to repeat myself?

I edited out most of the name calling and overt flame baiting from your statement and just addressed your responses but i needed to leave some in as they formed part of the base statement.

If pointing out that you're a troll has ruffled your feathers I suggest you take a breather. Or find a different career :)

Razor42 posted at 4:47PM Mon, 02 November 2015 - #4236499

Just to add, a debate doesnt work by changing your argument part way through a debate.

I never did. it was you who kept suggesting I was against DRM. Have a nice day!

@wolf359 Understood I think leaders and civilians in all countries including the US would be guilty of not respecting another countries laws and rights, it's is general practice. I was referring to the fact this is a global site and we shouldn't put certain nationalities into one shoe fits all category as some of these nationalities may enjoy the use of what Rendo has to offer and while may or may not agree with everything that goes on in their homeland they should at least not be offended here by our comments.

I am glad you have mentioned Microsoft a lot has been made of the reason to not have the DRM due to the big fail in the music industry's attempt. I am in the music industry so I have refrained from making any comment so far in regard to this as I don't want to appear like I have my own agenda or steer the topic off course. I would have to give myself TOS warning

I will put forward one point only re: DRM fail

Insert a DRM encrypted CD into a drive do I want to Play or Rip the CD? Microsoft = Don't steal our product but we are quite happy to give you the tools to kill another industry. It is only one cog in the wheel but a pretty big one. I know if it wasn't there someone would still find a way, but it would never have been anywhere near as bad as it got. The DRM required all the entertainment and software industries to work together from day one and this simply did not happen. As usual they just looked after their own interest until the tables turned, then started squealing like stuck pigs.

When Win 10 comes back as paid app after their 1 year free is up. I am thinking DRM protected monthly subscription. LOL.... LOL. After all it make sense $120 a year Sub or $129 home edition and you would hang onto it for 2-3 years via the this method. This will be something for us all to look forward to. If this thread is still going we can just tack it on the end to keep it all nice and tidy

I am trying to word this very carefully. My intention is not to flame bait or stir up another round of speculation. My only intention is to try and see what I am missing.

All the way through this winding discussion I have felt that I am missing a key bit of the equation. Things just don't add up without these details. And I am struggling to balance the equation.

1. DAZ Connect. Integrated into the system, provides store suggestions, allows items to be installed without using a secondary program. Items downloaded through DAZ Connect will have DRM incorporated because DAZ needs to protect its assets. Okay, no problem. On board so far.

2. DIM. Will still be supported. No fundamental changes to it. New items will still be available through DIM, just as they have in the past. While also being available through DAZ Connect. DIM items will not be encrypted. This is where my mental train leaves the tracks.

DAZ is obviously investing money into the DRM transition, but while leaving the same items non-DRMed. So then what is being gained for DAZ?

I don't want any wild speculation about subscriptions, etc. etc. I would like to have an official answer. I know that this isn't the official forum and the odds of their being an official answer here is low to zero. However those that can provide an official answer do read these posts. And I am hoping that this could be addressed somewhere.

I think balancing this equation would do a lot to assuage some of the panic. Personally I would accept an answer like "well, we were in here anyway, so we thought we'd do it at the same time."

Any system that requires us to open our computers to it has to be viewed with suspicion, if only because our security is only as good as the security of that system. Hacking occurs, and suddenly we find that we are more vulnerable. I am constantly undergoing software amendments and updates on my smartphone, often whether I want them or not. Typically, I get adverts I don't want. But let us consider the simple fact that a copy of most well-known books is not going to materially change between first publication and re-publication perhaps decades or even centuries afterwards. If I choose to acquire the version in which modern idiom replaces (say) Jane Austen's original form, it is down to me, but if I have DRM right, that no longer applies - however the owner of the system decides, the change occurs. The debate above has been in places puerile, but the issues remain constant. If any company imposes a method of 'protecting' 'its' material which ensures that they can control access to that material (even if they do not actually do so at first) is acting uncompetitively and not in the best interests of users. To use the analogy already suggested, laws are meant to be broken, and more importantly laws that do not serve the people should be broken. In GB we tend to toe the line, but in France they simply ignore unreasonable or draconian rules. Just because something is possible is no reason whyit should be done. I just hope that the management at Daz has the sense to quietly drop this idea,and return to the friendly and generally enjoyable status quo.

JasonGalterio posted at 2:40PM Mon, 02 November 2015 - #4236546

I am trying to word this very carefully. My intention is not to flame bait or stir up another round of speculation. My only intention is to try and see what I am missing.

All the way through this winding discussion I have felt that I am missing a key bit of the equation. Things just don't add up without these details. And I am struggling to balance the equation.

1. DAZ Connect. Integrated into the system, provides store suggestions, allows items to be installed without using a secondary program. Items downloaded through DAZ Connect will have DRM incorporated because DAZ needs to protect its assets. Okay, no problem. On board so far.

2. DIM. Will still be supported. No fundamental changes to it. New items will still be available through DIM, just as they have in the past. While also being available through DAZ Connect. DIM items will not be encrypted. This is where my mental train leaves the tracks.

DAZ is obviously investing money into the DRM transition, but while leaving the same items non-DRMed. So then what is being gained for DAZ?

I don't want any wild speculation about subscriptions, etc. etc. I would like to have an official answer. I know that this isn't the official forum and the odds of their being an official answer here is low to zero. However those that can provide an official answer do read these posts. And I am hoping that this could be addressed somewhere.

I think balancing this equation would do a lot to assuage some of the panic. Personally I would accept an answer like "well, we were in here anyway, so we thought we'd do it at the same time."

I think the idea somewhere along the line is to put out some content in DRM form only. Clearly it completely defeats the purpose to put out both a DRM and non-DRM version of the same product. This thing is just Beta at this point though, so it's all a lot of speculation. Since what DAZ is really doing is protecting the PA's, I would have to guess that some PA's will opt for DRM and some will not. DIM will have to be supported for quite a while, to get rid of entirely they need to rewrite at least Bryce and Carrarra and possibly Hexagon. Then of course they sell items that are not used in the DAZ program itself.

I really think they have better options then putting DRM on the content itself if they want to protect content. Then again I think that putting DRM on entertainment items has never been shown to increase sales, and I am still waiting for a counter argument on that.

"If pointing out that you're a troll has ruffled your feathers I suggest you take a breather. Or find a different career :)"

Trolls don't have feathers!

.... .... At least that i know of, but i will bow down here to your experience in that particular area. :)

parkdalegardener posted at 5:15PM Mon, 02 November 2015 - #4236490

I already have G1 and G2 running as Poser native. No DS needed. Took 10 minutes. I have props from DAZ that were in Studio formats when purchased. They are working in Lightwave, Poser, and Vue. Took less than 5 minutes. I have G3 running in Lightwave with a Lightwave rig. That too almost 45 minutes. It has a facial rig and uses the same skinning method as Studio.

And at some point in the next couple of weeks, I would love to talk to you about how you accomplished that. Since I'm starting out as a Poser noob, I haven't used DSON at all, and in looking through some threads about it, I keep coming up on references that it isn't even necessary. I would love to be able to expand my options by continuing to use Genesis and Genesis 2 in Poser and possibly Blender.

JasonGalterio posted at 5:23PM Mon, 02 November 2015 - #4236546

DAZ is obviously investing money into the DRM transition, but while leaving the same items non-DRMed. So then what is being gained for DAZ?

Items are only remaining unencrypted for the immediate future, and anything downloaded via DIM and ZIPs are unencrypted. DAZ promises (for whatever THAT'S worth) that these methods will be available for at least a few years yet, but at some point, new content will become DAZ Connect-downloadable only (my guess is that Michael 7 kicks it all off). I would look for DAZ to kill the ZIPs and DIM entirely as soon as possible after that, leaving only DAZ Connect (with its content-encrypting ways) as the only means to download content from the DAZ store. It's already been stated openly in the DAZ forums that DAZ Connect encrypts key files of everything that passes through it, so even older pre-DRM content (V4 and M4, for example) will be encrypted if downloaded through it. To encrypt some items but not others would be for DAZ to tell one content creator that their work is worthy of whatever protection their DRM can provide, but that another content creator's work is not, and I can see a revolt happening if they were to do that.

JasonGalterio posted at 9:47PM Mon, 02 November 2015 - #4236546

I am trying to word this very carefully. My intention is not to flame bait or stir up another round of speculation. My only intention is to try and see what I am missing.

All the way through this winding discussion I have felt that I am missing a key bit of the equation. Things just don't add up without these details. And I am struggling to balance the equation.

1. DAZ Connect. Integrated into the system, provides store suggestions, allows items to be installed without using a secondary program. Items downloaded through DAZ Connect will have DRM incorporated because DAZ needs to protect its assets. Okay, no problem. On board so far.

2. DIM. Will still be supported. No fundamental changes to it. New items will still be available through DIM, just as they have in the past. While also being available through DAZ Connect. DIM items will not be encrypted. This is where my mental train leaves the tracks.

DAZ is obviously investing money into the DRM transition, but while leaving the same items non-DRMed. So then what is being gained for DAZ?

I don't want any wild speculation about subscriptions, etc. etc. I would like to have an official answer. I know that this isn't the official forum and the odds of their being an official answer here is low to zero. However those that can provide an official answer do read these posts. And I am hoping that this could be addressed somewhere.

I think balancing this equation would do a lot to assuage some of the panic. Personally I would accept an answer like "well, we were in here anyway, so we thought we'd do it at the same time."

Old and Current Items: In DAZ Connect and DIM at same time, encrypted and not-encrypted respectively. There is not point to set old things, already shared in the web, in only DAZ Connect state.

New Future Items: Only DAZ Connect, only encrypted.

Date for new future items only encrypted: indeterminated.