The future of Poser's online community is up in the air with the recent announcement of the merger of RDNA and Daz. Which begs the question, is there a need for someone to step in to fill the void?

I'm not fully connected to the community these days. I used to run the marketing for Poser Addicts for about 1.5 years, but that was a couple years back. Even then, Daz's decision to create their next gen Genesis figures independent of Poser support was leaving Poser users in a tough spot. No matter what people had to say good or bad, the figures from Daz had been the dominant figures in the industry for more than a decade and continue to be so.

A number of people have attempted to challenge the dominance of Daz’s figures, with the intent to provide better options for Poser. Few have shown any staying power and none have captured the volume of fans that Mike and Vicky command. Some of those reasons are obvious to me, others not so clear. The overall attractiveness of the Daz people is broadly, if not universally, appealing. The quantity of supporting content, and content makers, is plentiful. Many of the newer figures can’t even compete with the Generation 4, Poser-compatible Daz figures. It’s been really frustrating for the Poser community overall.

So now, I have two questions for the Poser fanbase.

1. Do enough Poser users exist to support the need for another site/marketplace to take over for RDNA on the Poser side, since RDNA is seemingly phasing out their support of Poser with this merger?

2. Is this community ready for an entirely different approach to managing figure creation that could solve Poser’s need for a truly modern figure pair?

I’ve been a dedicated Poser user since Fractal Design Poser. I’m one of those stubbornly still using M4/V4, and I’m becoming increasingly frustrated by the direction of the industry. I have some ideas, but I can’t commit to them without finding out if the need is there. Please help me get the word out so I can get as many answers as possible to these questions, and if you want to know more about what I have in mind, message me for more info.

The existing Poser marketplaces seem to have trouble finding enough Poser-using content shoppers already, these days. More content options can only be a good thing, but it sort of looks from here (with my admittedly limited observation of the matter) like another marketplace could easily find itself struggling.

My understanding is that Poser itself has an adequate user base and is not in crisis. Poser content marketplaces are having difficulties, but that's not the same as Poser itself. As far as the actual number of Poser users goes, only Smith Micro could address that question, and they've never jumped in with answers when that question has come up previously on the forums.

My current assumption is that the Poser users who formerly bought the most content have been drawn away to D|S in large numbers. Those of us who remain with Poser don't shop for stuff as much or as often as the users who have quit Poser to favor Daz. Poser has been making it easier for us to build our own new content and to convert older content for use with more figures, cutting down on the need to buy content. That's just me, guessing about stuff, though.

Your second question sounds like you're maybe proposing a new way of doing something or other, but I'm not sure what that is...?

Speaking for myself, I primarily use the community-built, free and open-source Antonia figure, for which I create my own content. I'm a longtime, fairly skilled, fairly heavy Poser user, but I rarely buy content. Being a Poser user isn't really the same thing as being a Poser content shopper.

1. Do enough Poser users exist to support the need for another site/marketplace to take over for RDNA on the Poser side, since RDNA is seemingly phasing out their support of Poser with this merger?

Think there is enough Poser users. But I think you should try to ask yourself the same question a bit differently. Is it possible to make a new marketplace which can compete with the current ones? If you follow in the path or simply copy the already existing places there is most likely not. But if you can make a place which improve on the things that current users are not happy about with the current ones, will you have a chance?

2. Is this community ready for an entirely different approach to managing figure creation that could solve Poser’s need for a truly modern figure pair?

Not really sure what you mean by this, or at least i think it will be difficult to give you any good feedback with so few details. If you refer to if Poser is ready for new figures? I would say yes, I think for people making figures with the intend of competing with the current ones like V4, M4, Genesis etc. have a hard time, but if they could convince vendors or content creators to make stuff for them, they could have a very good chance of being popular. A way to do this or at least consider could be to offer this figure free of charge to the content creators and vendors, and if its a good model there is a chance they will start making content for it and therefore do the job or help make the character popular. But i think one of the big problems for character creators is that, they release a figure. But no one owns it or a able to make content for it, unless they buy it. But a vendor might not buy the figure for varies reasons. Which might not be very different from others customers, meaning I think the main reason a vendor would invest in a character is if they like it themself, and as a result of that will then make content for it. But it could also be for simply creating content for them, but if the figure is not popular enough it of course is not that attractive, so they won't buy it. So i think creating characters is a bit of a gamble, but one which can have a huge value if you can make it popular. So maybe an idea of simply offering it for free to vendors, meaning contacting varies ones and ask if they want it, might actually work.

I'm not sure why people feel the need to say Poser's future is up in the air. Poser isn't going anywhere any time soon. Assuming that we Poser users are jumping is ship in large numbers is pure speculation at best. As far as figures is concerned, Project E is well on it's way to having a large following since Erogenesis has announced he's going to release it to the community. Project E, imho, is going to be the figure to fill the void we are all feeling. She bends fantastically and Erogenesis is doing everything he can to make sure that when she's released, she is released with minimal to no issues experienced with other figures who have vied to become the next big figure.

I agree. I don't think Poser users are jumping ship. I believe the content creators are following the money, nothing more. And sites aligning themselves with one or the other software is bringing about a knee jerk reaction by a lot of folks. I am seeing a lot of regulars from RDNA in other forums...

If you want to really find out what these people are feeling and what they are thinking about, go to the forums they are running to. Checking out some the other threads may give you a clue as to where they are going. I myself have started hanging out at HiveWire. I am in here less and less. I have one thread in here I am monitoring but mostly I will be lurking from now on. Posts like this from me will be rare.

I actually do not worry for that poser will loose a stable marketplace. Com-pairing it with DS , Ds still has a loong way to go to be able to offer what poser does offer. Most Artists make Rigging and Boning In poser as it is almost impossible to do it in DS. Figures are mostly done in Poser then just trans faired to DS so it is indispensable for a creator not to have it. there are to many scripts in poser that a Creator needs to make hes life simple . If you know poser then a figure will be boned in a matter of seconds ! Rigging is easy ! allot of features Poser has is not advertised but people who use it know about the hidden Features. just looking at the Import feature of .DAE a Poser user is not bound on specific stuff made for it . DS has a lock for DAE if you load this format then you will get a ripped off figure. Not working , Poser will get this Mesh fully boned and rigged on the Platform. Meaning that the user is not specifically bound on Cr2 format. for sure DS is bound on hes format in the major part causing the costumers to believe that there is no alternative way. if a creator uses a DEA format he gets allot of support as sample " Mixamo " a cup of cofee and your figure is ready and supported by Poser. Allot of Poser users do not only use there format and are not bound on a specific poser market , another reason why some Vendors or stores like Daz want to get rid of it. so a reason why Ds is very limited for support.

In Poser you are able to get fast rigging through third party support and it is the most tedious part of creation , one coud choose to do it in DAZ but he will not get any great results. Make it in Poser Load in DS then save it there Coded that is the way it goes.

Smaple : This figure took me 10 min In poser to get the basic rigging Impossible to get it into DS unless I save it as CR2 then Reload in DS to create a exclusive DS Product Allot of people are not aware of these facts and Creators do not reveal the secrets as they wanna sell there Products they will tell you on what high end program they need! DS is getting the market locking out poser to secure an income . When I look into DS it is not more then a Game in witch you can buy your little ad-dons , one might as well buy a good game and spend thousands of$ for new Updates. Poser has a potential to make your own creations , supports 100% other major formats and a good creator whether for DS or Poser is fully aware of it. so I sure have no worries that poser will fade away. Smith Micro does not depend on Markets like here or Daz they just look at the statistics of how many buy the Programm , and there are quiet many.

Additionally : if you use DS then you might notice a pretty large amount of figures that have Easy-pose features these are sold Exclusive for DS but well this code can only be done in CR2 , there are other features like Cinematic Dials I call them interactive Morphs for movements that have delays like this sort of Figure

Watch Sample

Something that Poser offers and allot of users Depend on most Movements shows are build in Interactive Dials So to say allot you see in Programs like DS were depending on the poser platform to be built.

I believe that a good modern character base is very important one along with having a lot of built-in morphs along with making it easy for vendors to provide a rich amount of char types for the base. Which is one of the main reasons why V4 / M4 became so popular. I like Poser a lot and I am always learning something new. To me Poser is not just a Barbie doll dress up program. Of course all of this becomes moot if the vendors don't support the new character platform, CONTENT IS KING. Why not find a way to have Gen 3 content work with this new Poser character platform, I believe that could solve a lot of the issue with vendors and artist.

The only people jumping ship are the vendors who are just following the money trail. I can't blame them either, I would in their shoes.

First off, thanks to the user who pointed me toward Project E. She looks to have so much potential. I hope there are plans to make a male.

Second, the resurrected site would be the actual site brought back to life. It is currently open, and products are for sale, but no updating or marketing has occurred for more than three years, so it's more of an archive than anything else. I'm feeling out the community for interest in the site's revival.

Lastly, the biggest challenge most new figure creators face is creation in a vacuum, having to put all the work in initially alone, and then wanting to reap the rewards at some point. It's always going to be an investment process, but the process is almost always a dictatorship. I am toying with notions of open-source and crowdsourcing and creation by committee for a new figure pair. I will always insist that both a male and female are needed and ideally simultaneously.

It does seem that there's a difference between how Poser users feel and how Poser content buyers feel. I'm sure there's some overlap, but I'm not sure it overlaps enough to gamble on getting back into the creation business...

what the poser market seems to need right now is an unprecedented level of focused support for a (one) non daz figure/figure family. The hivewire ones have come a long way and seem to be viable at this point BUT they do have that hard-coded 'G' rating attached to them that is a bit of a sticking point for people wanting to make art in a 'grown ups' environment. I didn't say adult in this instance because it immediately brings to mind poser porn and that's not what I'm talking about. Just the treatment of poser subject matter as mature adults who are capable of witnessing and appreciating the full human form. Aritistic freedom not artificially limited by the design decisions of the figure with which we work. I'm very optimistic about project E, but I have been before and been disappointed by the support offered. I think at this point the key value content creators could add is more in supporting some of the better of whats available than adding further under supported figures to the ring.

That being said I do love the idea of different models of bringing content to market. Some sort of content creation collaborative could tap some of the best skills different people have to offer and get more content to market quicker in support of any particular figure. Some people can model, some can rig and some can texture to a pretty high level but far fewer can do all three at the same level. It would be cool if there was a structure to help tap different skillsets to bring content to market and reward each equitably for their contribution

Some use only one app but others use multiple apps.Just cause one doesn't just use Poser 100% of the time don't mean there using DAZ .they could be using unity ,unreal ,reallusion ,blender ,houdini ,autodesk etc etc.

If I made a Store it would be for all of CGI. If I made Characters it would be for all of CGI.

I don't know why any one would make there universe smaller.

since RDNA is seemingly phasing out their support of Poser with this merger?

No, it isn't - the Poser content of those PAs moving to Daz will be in the daz store, as will their future Poser-format releases. Daz has no problem with taking Poser content.

I believe there are at least 5, if not more, viable alternative Poser content marketplaces which cannot be mentioned in a Renderosity forum thread. They are surviving, with no sign of implosion yet.

RHaseltine posted at 10:37AM Sat, 27 February 2016 - #4257703

since RDNA is seemingly phasing out their support of Poser with this merger?

No, it isn't - the Poser content of those PAs moving to Daz will be in the daz store, as will their future Poser-format releases. Daz has no problem with taking Poser content.

Which is a gamble for those PAs who try to sell Poser content there, because Daz's reputation in the community seems to be that of moving away from Poser. Unless they amp up promotion of this influx of Poser content, Poser users won't think Daz3D.com when they want new content.

vagabondallen posted at 12:01PM Sat, 27 February 2016 - #4257860

RHaseltine posted at 10:37AM Sat, 27 February 2016 - #4257703

since RDNA is seemingly phasing out their support of Poser with this merger?

No, it isn't - the Poser content of those PAs moving to Daz will be in the daz store, as will their future Poser-format releases. Daz has no problem with taking Poser content.

Which is a gamble for those PAs who try to sell Poser content there, because Daz's reputation in the community seems to be that of moving away from Poser. Unless they amp up promotion of this influx of Poser content, Poser users won't think Daz3D.com when they want new content.

It's going to be a gamble for those vendors either way. Either sell your poser items on a site with more visibility, or go splinter off to a smaller site where most don't know the location, thus your sales are smaller and support is reduced even further. To be honest, they either should go to DAZ or to Rendo because all the other sites aren't going to have near the reach. Also customers will need to purchase those items, not fill up forums to show vendors that making Poser-oriented items are worth their time. Right now I think opening up yet more stores are going to hurt Poser vendors than moving items to stores that are already established.

_ " Do enough Poser users exist to support the need for another site/marketplace to take over for RDNA on the Poser side, since RDNA is seemingly phasing out their support of Poser with this merger?" _

Not likely; Smith Design has dropped the ball both technically and in marketing. The price of admission to Daz is "free". That's a good price, and the provide at this point a superior product.

I use Poser at this point only because I have used Poser for so long, and there are old scenes and resources that are in Poser format. That's a legacy market; legacy markets can be milked but don't warrant new investment.

_ " Is this community ready for an entirely different approach to managing figure creation that could solve Poser’s need for a truly modern figure pair?"_

Me, yes, but its not Poser or Daz; neither of which are up to the technical standards of Lightwave -- even Lightwave of years ago. More advanced applications long ago moved to lighter geometries, subdivision surfaces and a host of other "innovations" still unseen in Daz and Poser-verse.

Take instancing. Lots of folks are doing fantasy scenes . . . instancing technology has been around for years in applications like Lightwave -- and spectacularly in Eon's Vue products.

Still no instancing in Daz or Poser, so you're left with one shots and two shots. Look at the Poser galleries-- have you seen an army of Orcs?

So I think there's a place for a competitor to Daz; they've demonstrated that there's real money in selling content . . . and they are improving their technology.

But there's time for a competitor coming "from above" -- my pick would be Lightwave, but obviously Autodesk could do it, and has much more financial resources. Less obvious but possible players would be Eon (which seems to be heading in a different direction following purchase by Bentley), some bolt on to Blender (tricky because of open source issues with for profit material), Modo (pointing at a different market these days, but always had a keen marketing and community sense).

I am interested in your ideas but I honestly don't know where you are going to get any reliable feedback to your questions. Quite a few people have left the Renderosity forums and some no longer shop here. Many don't shop at Daz while others do but never visit the forums there. Of course the majority of Poser users don't visit the forum anyway and I guess the same is true for DS.

As ghostship2 has already stated a lot of vendors have followed the money which is to be expected, they want to make a living but it is not a good guide to how many are using Poser. My personal spend here is down to zero from around $300 a month but that has nothing to do with the vendors and I still use Poser on an almost daily basis. What money I do spend has been at Hivewire3D and RDNA although it begins to look as though it might just be Hivewire3D in future.

Would I buy more Poser content, if I like it and can use it, yes I would but I am not about to buy stuff purely because it is for Poser and someone claims Poser is in trouble.

crocodilian posted at 6:08PM Sat, 27 February 2016 - #4257897

Still no instancing in Daz or Poser, so you're left with one shots and two shots. Look at the Poser galleries-- have you seen an army of Orcs?

DAZ Studio has had instancing for a few years now.

Male_M3dia posted at 5:49PM Sat, 27 February 2016 - #4257923

crocodilian posted at 6:08PM Sat, 27 February 2016 - #4257897

Still no instancing in Daz or Poser, so you're left with one shots and two shots. Look at the Poser galleries-- have you seen an army of Orcs?

DAZ Studio has had instancing for a few years now.

Quite limited, but you're right Daz (sort of) does. Can't do morphs, can't alter surfaces . . . makes them of limited utility, but they are there.

Compare to the richness of Vue's Ecosystems . . . very basic. Have yet to see anyone do much of anything with them . . . though with some work, you can get something.

In any event my point remains: there's room for a competitor to Daz for two reasons

1. Daz is an increasingly closed, proprietary universe . . . and artists don't like that (see Eon's experience with encrypted content)
2. Better technologies are available

Besides instancing . .. think of a hobbyist application with native support for Zbrush. Or Octane-like cloud rendering at a consumer price.

So there's an opportunity, but I don't think that either Smith or their ecosystem are capable of taking advantage of it.

crocodilian posted at 8:25PM Sat, 27 February 2016 - #4257939

Male_M3dia posted at 5:49PM Sat, 27 February 2016 - #4257923

crocodilian posted at 6:08PM Sat, 27 February 2016 - #4257897

Still no instancing in Daz or Poser, so you're left with one shots and two shots. Look at the Poser galleries-- have you seen an army of Orcs?

DAZ Studio has had instancing for a few years now.

Quite limited, but you're right Daz (sort of) does. Can't do morphs, can't alter surfaces . . . makes them of limited utility, but they are there.

Compare to the richness of Vue's Ecosystems . . . very basic. Have yet to see anyone do much of anything with them . . . though with some work, you can get something.

In any event my point remains: there's room for a competitor to Daz for two reasons

1. Daz is an increasingly closed, proprietary universe . . . and artists don't like that (see Eon's experience with encrypted content)
2. Better technologies are available

Besides instancing . .. think of a hobbyist application with native support for Zbrush. Or Octane-like cloud rendering at a consumer price.

So there's an opportunity, but I don't think that either Smith or their ecosystem are capable of taking advantage of it.

Beyond you attempting to change the argument once proven wrong (let's not do that), the fact is still DAZ Studio still has it. And there are products that do use it. However in this space, if people want more capability, they would move up into the more expensive applications like Lightwave, Maya, etc and they would be making their own content. Also it serves no purpose to turn yet another thread into an app war, so let's stick to what the OP wanted.. and that's where it's feasible to open another store.

I never got why there's such a thing as this app vs that app. Now if some ass hole could enforce a rule that you can only use one certain app. No ,just eliminate the enforcer. What's it take to have a successful Store ? That a easy answer.

Beyond you attempting to change the argument once proven wrong (let's not do that), the fact is still DAZ Studio still has it. And there are products that do use it. However in >this space, if people want more capability, they would move up into the more expensive applications like Lightwave, Maya, etc and they would be making their own content. >Also it serves no purpose to turn yet another thread into an app war, so let's stick to what the OP wanted.. and that's where it's feasible to open another store.

It has a very limited instancing, which means for practical purposes, it doesn't/

If you want to create an army of identically posed, oriented and textured Orcs, then Daz' feature is adequate. That's roughly the technology of a decade ago, and few have much use for that. It certainly is possible that a more useful instancing will come out of Daz/iRay's platform, but its not there yet. There are some third party plugins (Instances+) that add a small amount of functionality, but its still limited.

Meaning there's an opportunity for someone to deliver something useful.

RorrKonn posted at 8:21PM Sat, 27 February 2016 - #4257958

I never got why there's such a thing as this app vs that app. Now if some ass hole could enforce a rule that you can only use one certain app. No ,just eliminate the enforcer. What's it take to have a successful Store ? That a easy answer.

What's it take to have a successful store?

Modern products for modern technology.

V4 is a decade old (V4 introduced 2006, 4.1 2007, 4.2 2008) . Smith Design has brought new figures to market since then (Allison, Kate, now Pauline), but vendor support for them is very thin, and hobbyist use is similarly thin.

Judging by the content here and and RDNA, Poser content vendors have, until recently, been living on V 4.2.

There are all kinds of advances in graphics technology since 2005, and folks, including hobbyists, will pay for "cool stuff".

But I doubt they'll continue to pay for 2006 for much longer.

_Modern products for modern technology.

No doubt ,No doubt ,but apparently it's rather difficult to get it.

I don't know if any web master can make a website that works on all browsers PC's ,Phones ,etc etc. that has flawless ebots ,searches ,all the store content filed correctly. and has a dark back ground. has the forums sub filed correctly. etc etc. There's not a website / store / forums any where that somethings not right about it.

People argue this point with me that's never even made a character ,but that's OK. but it doesn't change the fact that out of the 7+ billion people on this planet. only maybe 5 people on this planet could make Vickys = .So that makes getting the Modern Technology a bit difficult.

DAZ can be challenged but only by those willing to really work for it. Me ? I'm way to lazy for that challenge. PacMan gets the best of me ;)

I'm thinking Web Masters that can make flawless sites n CGI Artist that can challenge Vicky. Goes after a Wall Street / Hollywood paycheck not a Venders paycheck.

There's no question that Poser and DS have their limitations. The thing is, I'm not wondering if there are better options for people who've learned to do more than change the color of a texture map in Photoshop. Given the niches both programs serve, is there still potential for vendors to serve the Poser hobbyist community? Have the two programs tried so hard to move into the broader 3D industry that they've lost the point-and-clickers altogether? I am reminded of other industries that at one time supported dozens of companies, but over time, saw the number of those companies dwindle as the bigger ones, the more successful ones bought out or pushed out the smaller ones. I'm starting to wonder if everything really began to change when Daz acquired Poser Pros...

vagabondallen posted at 12:58AM Mon, 29 February 2016 - #4258144

There's no question that Poser and DS have their limitations. The thing is, I'm not wondering if there are better options for people who've learned to do more than change the color of a texture map in Photoshop. Given the niches both programs serve, is there still potential for vendors to serve the Poser hobbyist community? Have the two programs tried so hard to move into the broader 3D industry that they've lost the point-and-clickers altogether? I am reminded of other industries that at one time supported dozens of companies, but over time, saw the number of those companies dwindle as the bigger ones, the more successful ones bought out or pushed out the smaller ones. I'm starting to wonder if everything really began to change when Daz acquired Poser Pros...

Every thing change with Genesis.

In our little universe the majority of the users basically just want to load premade content, pose premade content and hit render to make a pretty picture, these people are also where most of the money comes from that's kept the marketplaces in business.

Now DAZ realized this years ago which is why their figures always have a lot of content available when they release a new figure, when it was the millennium series nobody challenged them, figures were made but had very little content, so they were allowed to "rule" the content side of things.

Now that they don't create Poser figures most of the money spenders have followed them and now buy DS native content, so any marketplace that stayed "Poser only" was always going to suffer, as will any new Poser only marketplace.

Still think there is a good chance of Project E adding some fuel to the fire, seems like a very well made character that can take own the Genesis(es) head on, if the promotional images are true, which I see no reason to believe they ain't. There will most likely be made a lot of content for that one, i think. At least i see it as an addition or maybe even a replacement for V4 :D

"So now, I have two questions for the Poser fanbase.

1.Do enough Poser users exist to support the need for another site/marketplace to take over for RDNA on the Poser side, since RDNA is seemingly phasing out their support of Poser with this merger?" We do have Renderosity.

2.Is this community ready for an entirely different approach to managing figure creation that could solve Poser’s need for a truly modern figure pair?" I believe so. It will take an extensive survey of the Poser community, though.

patorak3d posted at 10:20PM Tue, 01 March 2016 - #4258613

"So now, I have two questions for the Poser fanbase.

1.Do enough Poser users exist to support the need for another site/marketplace to take over for RDNA on the Poser side, since RDNA is seemingly phasing out their support of Poser with this merger?" We do have Renderosity.

2.Is this community ready for an entirely different approach to managing figure creation that could solve Poser’s need for a truly modern figure pair?" I believe so. It will take an extensive survey of the Poser community, though.

1. Forum wise, RDNA will be missed, but from what I understand SM is moving their forums elsewhere - otherwise, who cares? Other sides are up (hivewire, cgbytes, Yuri-digital, etc.)

2a. The days of One figure to rule them all is over. The market has fragmented and it isn't coming back. I would say that you are confusing DAZ's business model with SM's business model. You have missed the power that is in current versions of Poser. Poser gives you the toolset to use the figure of your choice. Wanna keep using a legacy figure - adding Poser 9+ features only take a few minutes. Or use the wide variety of modern Poser figures - the choice is OURS. The same can be said for clothing - I have dozens of outfits made for either M4 or V4 that have never gone on a DAZ figure. I LIKE not needing to build a new wardrobe everytime a new figure comes out.

2b. You will never get the vendors on board for a new figure - for the most part they are hell-bent on staying in the Poser 4 era and have no intention of leaving it. In 2016, vendors are still making material .pz2 files.

Lack of vendor support for ANY figure not named V4 is the REASON SM added the fitting room to Poser Pro.

ssgbryan posted at 9:06AM Wed, 02 March 2016 - #4258706

2b. You will never get the vendors on board for a new figure - for the most part they are hell-bent on staying in the Poser 4 era and have no intention of leaving it. In 2016, vendors are still making material .pz2 files.

Lack of vendor support for ANY figure not named V4 is the REASON SM added the fitting room to Poser Pro.

I don't think its because vendors doesn't want to support different figures. And think V4 and M4 got so popular, because they really advanced the figure market and you didn't have as many figures back then as you have now. So it was a logic move for people, not only vendors to throw themselves over these. Daz3d if i remember right, then started with the Genesis figures series and gave a base package away for free, which meant that any vendor could get the base mesh and make content for them without actually having to invest in it, as more and more Genesis figures came out again the base mesh could be downloaded and vendors could easily make content for them.

Since the quality of the genesis figures is rather good they also got popular, but for people making figures, I think this have made it a bit harder for them to release new figures. Because their figures requires vendors to buy them and there are lots of figures, not only humans ones. So a vendor would have to make a lot of investment for making content to all these. So I think anyone making a figure would benefit from copying that idea from Daz3d and release the base mesh for free with the most common morphs and then special morphs and textures are bought separately. Because that would allow vendors to easily make content for them.

"2b. You will never get the vendors on board for a new figure" We would have to look for new vendors that would support a new figure.

"So I think anyone making a figure would benefit from copying that idea from Daz3d and release the base mesh for free with the most common morphs and then special morphs and textures are bought separately. Because that would allow vendors to easily make content for them." Good idea. For a new figure, we should look beyond DAZ, though.

Step 1. We should study and observe our environment.

Step 2. Create a human primitive and look at our options.

Good idea. For a new figure, we should look beyond DAZ, though.

Then again its not as easy for a vendor to even copy that of Daz or even go beyond. Because Daz and the other content stores, have the benefit that they get X amount of % of the sale. So they can easily give the base model away for free and still make money from textures, morphs, content etc. But a individual making a character and giving the base model away doesn't have that privilege and risk that another vendor create morphs and textures for the model that becomes more popular than the character creators own, which of course is of little use for them then. So not sure, how to really get around it, but its definitely not easy i think to sell characters and make them popular as well.

ssgbryan posted at 5:31PM Wed, 02 March 2016 - #4258706

patorak3d posted at 10:20PM Tue, 01 March 2016 - #4258613

"So now, I have two questions for the Poser fanbase.

1.Do enough Poser users exist to support the need for another site/marketplace to take over for RDNA on the Poser side, since RDNA is seemingly phasing out their support of Poser with this merger?" We do have Renderosity.

2.Is this community ready for an entirely different approach to managing figure creation that could solve Poser’s need for a truly modern figure pair?" I believe so. It will take an extensive survey of the Poser community, though.

1. Forum wise, RDNA will be missed, but from what I understand SM is moving their forums elsewhere - otherwise, who cares? Other sides are up (hivewire, cgbytes, Yuri-digital, etc.)

2a. The days of One figure to rule them all is over. The market has fragmented and it isn't coming back. I would say that you are confusing DAZ's business model with SM's business model. You have missed the power that is in current versions of Poser. Poser gives you the toolset to use the figure of your choice. Wanna keep using a legacy figure - adding Poser 9+ features only take a few minutes. Or use the wide variety of modern Poser figures - the choice is OURS. The same can be said for clothing - I have dozens of outfits made for either M4 or V4 that have never gone on a DAZ figure. I LIKE not needing to build a new wardrobe everytime a new figure comes out.

2b. You will never get the vendors on board for a new figure - for the most part Lack of vendor support for ANY figure not named V4 is the REASON SM added the fitting room to Poser Pro."

But alas the fitting room did very little to increase the popularity of pauline, Paul ,Dawn Dusk, Scarlett or "EF Steve. They all languish in relative obscurity and will likely continue to fade now that a not so crippled G3 female can be rendered in poser 11.

The population considers Vicky Queen .The population votes who will be president. Vicky always has and always will be the Queen of one mesh to rule them all. but a morph base on a certain mesh with a certain rig with licensing and copyright rules. has a lot of limits ,looks, cloths etc etc. are all limited. Probably why I have not seen a optimus prime or diablo morph.

I've never had the thought to make just one mesh and then just make morphs for it. I've never thought to limit my self. Why would I build my own prison.

wolf359 posted at 9:56AM Thu, 03 March 2016 - #4258945

ssgbryan posted at 5:31PM Wed, 02 March 2016 - #4258706

patorak3d posted at 10:20PM Tue, 01 March 2016 - #4258613

"So now, I have two questions for the Poser fanbase.

1.Do enough Poser users exist to support the need for another site/marketplace to take over for RDNA on the Poser side, since RDNA is seemingly phasing out their support of Poser with this merger?" We do have Renderosity.

2.Is this community ready for an entirely different approach to managing figure creation that could solve Poser’s need for a truly modern figure pair?" I believe so. It will take an extensive survey of the Poser community, though.

1. Forum wise, RDNA will be missed, but from what I understand SM is moving their forums elsewhere - otherwise, who cares? Other sides are up (hivewire, cgbytes, Yuri-digital, etc.)

2a. The days of One figure to rule them all is over. The market has fragmented and it isn't coming back. I would say that you are confusing DAZ's business model with SM's business model. You have missed the power that is in current versions of Poser. Poser gives you the toolset to use the figure of your choice. Wanna keep using a legacy figure - adding Poser 9+ features only take a few minutes. Or use the wide variety of modern Poser figures - the choice is OURS. The same can be said for clothing - I have dozens of outfits made for either M4 or V4 that have never gone on a DAZ figure. I LIKE not needing to build a new wardrobe everytime a new figure comes out.

2b. You will never get the vendors on board for a new figure - for the most part Lack of vendor support for ANY figure not named V4 is the REASON SM added the fitting room to Poser Pro."

But alas the fitting room did very little to increase the popularity of pauline, Paul ,Dawn Dusk, Scarlett or "EF Steve. They all languish in relative obscurity and will likely continue to fade now that a not so crippled G3 female can be rendered in poser 11.

Depends on your view point. I don't think Dawn has continued to fade and interest appears to have increased since the release of version 2 and SE. What is more users did not have to re-buy her wardrobe for version 2. She never will compete with Genesis in terms of sales, or V4 for that matter, but that does not mean there are no sales. I have used the fitting room extensively for clothes for Dawn and the same for Dusk.

Genesis may well be good but each version also attracts a percentage that buy because it is the latest and greatest and they will quickly move to Genesis 4 when that is launched. The days of one figure dominating has gone, there are going to be more and more figures with reduced support compared with V4.

For some this reduced support means they live in obscurity, for others they see a figure they can use in their art and quietly continue to do so.

wolf359 posted at 10:11AM Thu, 03 March 2016 - #4258945

But alas the fitting room did very little to increase the popularity of pauline, Paul ,Dawn Dusk, Scarlett or "EF Steve. They all languish in relative obscurity and will likely continue to fade now that a not so crippled G3 female can be rendered in poser 11.

What metrics are you using to define "popularity"? Is "languish in relative obscurity" a fancy way of saying Not sold at Renderosity? Go look at the members online widget in the upper left hand corner - it is down 50% since the last site "upgrade" and the Prime debacle. Renderosity is no longer the place to be. And it is for the most part, self-inflicted.

I don't think it is "obscurity" as much as it is "diffused".

Dusk & Dawn don't appear to be languishing at Hivewire3d. I have over 50 Dawn characters (and I don't own all of them). Pauline was picking up steam until the buyout of RDNA. OTOH, a lot of that Pauline content could be picked up at Content Paradise. Over on CGBytes, we are all waiting on Project E with bated breath. Hell, even Poser World is getting into the Original Poser Figure act. There is a market for new figures and I have to say, it is refreshing after the V4 era. IMO, it beats buying a G3F figure that looks exactly like a G2F figure, which in turn looks exactly like the vendor's V4 figure.

If someone uses V4 as a baseline, every figure is a failure - DAZ or otherwise.

But in the forums here and RDNA for example you are only going to see a very tiny slice of the total Poser users. You can say that the recent native Poser characters were failures because not much content was made for them, but there are also a great many people who use Poser without constantly buying new external content. Either because the tools we have in Poser make buying new items less necessary, or because they never needed them for their use of Poser. Depending on your use - you could be perfectly happy to use mostly the content you already have. And whatever the failings of CP as a store, it is accessible from inside Poser so perhaps there are many users who may never look any further for their content?

I think the loss of RDNA is a shame from the point of view of older stuff that will be retired - I get a lot of use from recycled clothes for older figures - and it's annoying from the point of view of relocating the official forums. But I don't see it as some kind of death blow for Poser. I strongly suspect that large numbers of Poser users may not even notice.

"So not sure, how to really get around it, but its definitely not easy i think to sell characters and make them popular as well." Maybe a multi-level approach is needed.

"But alas the fitting room did very little to increase the popularity of pauline, Paul ,Dawn Dusk, Scarlett or "EF Steve. They all languish in relative obscurity and will likely continue to fade now that a not so crippled G3 female can be rendered in poser 11." Could be then if someone was going to make a figure then they would need to go beyond G3's capabilities.

"I've never had the thought to make just one mesh and then just make morphs for it. I've never thought to limit my self. Why would I build my own prison." You've just given me an idea. Thank you.

"Genesis may well be good but each version also attracts a percentage that buy because it is the latest and greatest and they will quickly move to Genesis 4 when that is launched. The days of one figure dominating has gone, there are going to be more and more figures with reduced support compared with V4." Hopefully, we're moving in the right direction to achieve that.

What metrics are you using to define "popularity"? Is "languish in relative obscurity" a fancy way of saying Not sold at Renderosity? Go look at the members online widget in the upper left hand corner - it is down 50% since the last site "upgrade" and the Prime debacle. Renderosity is no longer the place to be. And it is for the most part, self-inflicted. Membership may be down too because of the economy.

"I think the loss of RDNA is a shame from the point of view of older stuff that will be retired - I get a lot of use from recycled clothes for older figures - and it's annoying from the point of view of relocating the official forums. But I don't see it as some kind of death blow for Poser. I strongly suspect that large numbers of Poser users may not even notice." I hope they do notice and become more active in the Poser community because of it.

Again, if you are going to make a figure for Poser, step 2 should be obtaining a reference and setting your models proportions. Both male and female.

I have been using Poser since Poser 3 was the latest version.

patorak3d another idea ,for texturing ,Indie Allegorithmic Substance Live ,would go great with NewTek Lightwave ;)

"I have been using Poser since Poser 3 was the latest version"
You've been in it for the long haul, then? I hope you don't mind me asking, but what has been the figure you have worked with the most? BTW Thank you for the models you have given us.

"patorak3d another idea ,for texturing ,Indie Allegorithmic Substance Live ,would go great with NewTek Lightwave ;)" Excellent! You do know, though, that I couldn't texture to save my life.Lol. RorrKonn, we both know it takes a crew to make a Poser figure(s). So I've got to ask you, would you be willing to partner up and help me on this?

Step 3 bend your figure at the joints except the fingures and toes. Bend them between 5-10 degrees.

patorak3d .Have you seen my Renderosity Gallery ? I'm not dude for the warm n fussy textures ,but a Dark Halloween texture ,maybe.

I'd find the best Venders that makes skin textures and ask them if they would like to make some textures for your character.

I'd find the best Venders that makes morphs and ask them if they would like to make some morphs for your character.

Phattom3D and Joe Publick are some of the best at rigging.

I hope your character is very successful. but to be honest about it I don't want to be part of a 3D crew any more. Still half to pay the bills thou.

In my spare time .next month or two ,I will be making Substance Designer Proceduals ,Generaters ,Materails etc etc

Then I'll make some low polycount buildings ,I'll make them DAZ Poser compatible but there still be low polycount. I have no doubt Stone Masson will be sweating my competition ;)

Then sometime around 2017 I'll make some low polycount characters DAZ Poser compatible also.Have no doubt DAZ will be shaking in there shoes ,LOL.

RorrKonn posted at 9:50PM Fri, 04 March 2016 - #4259339

Phattom3D and Joe Publick are some of the best at rigging.

It seems like both of them have left Poser behind, unfortunately. Phantom popped in once in 2014 for a few minutes, but otherwise hasn't been seen since 2012, as far as I know. JoePublic seems to have stopped posting, and I assume he's moved over to D|S and Genesis, based on some freebies I saw at ShareCG (unless I imagined that...).

There are some other master Poser riggers out there. I would count shvrdavid among them.

I can't find Joe at CGShare at all. found Clark easy. Since the fall of runtime Phattom3D and Joe Publick might return home. HW3D Changed there PG Rating. So you never know what might happen.

RorrKonn has a AC rating ... Anarchy & Chaos ;)

"I'd find the best Venders that makes skin textures and ask them if they would like to make some textures for your character.

I'd find the best Venders that makes morphs and ask them if they would like to make some morphs for your character.

Phattom3D and Joe Publick are some of the best at rigging." Good thinking, RorrKonn. It would be nice if they dropped by.

"I hope your character is very successful. but to be honest about it I don't want to be part of a 3D crew any more. Still half to pay the bills thou." Thanks and I understand. I hope you will keep contributing to this thread, though.

"In my spare time .next month or two ,I will be making Substance Designer Proceduals ,Generaters ,Materails etc etc

Then I'll make some low polycount buildings ,I'll make them DAZ Poser compatible but there still be low polycount. I have no doubt Stone Masson will be sweating my competition ;)

Then sometime around 2017 I'll make some low polycount characters DAZ Poser compatible also.Have no doubt DAZ will be shaking in there shoes ,LOL." Excellent! Keep us posted on your progress.

"It seems like both of them have left Poser behind, unfortunately. Phantom popped in once in 2014 for a few minutes, but otherwise hasn't been seen since 2012, as far as I know. JoePublic seems to have stopped posting, and I assume he's moved over to D|S and Genesis, based on some freebies I saw at ShareCG (unless I imagined that...).

There are some other master Poser riggers out there. I would count shvrdavid among them." Hopefully, they will come back. Seems like we have lost a lot of people. Let shvrdavid know he's more than welcome to join us here. In the mean time we'll keep surveying the potential, checking for options and setting the priorities.

"RorrKonn has a AC rating ... Anarchy & Chaos ;)" Awesome!

Now step 4 Do full body morphs of the primitive from teenagers to babies that have the potential to be separate figures.

I'm always around :)

I half to learn more about Substance Live copy rights n intellectual property rights stuff. but there seems to be a lot of confusion. & If you make Substance Designer PBR from scratch requires the use of absolutes ,cosine ,float ,integers ,acos etc etc .So I'm sure about using SL.

"I half to learn more about Substance Live copy rights n intellectual property rights stuff. but there seems to be a lot of confusion. & If you make Substance Designer PBR from scratch requires the use of absolutes ,cosine ,float ,integers ,acos etc etc .So I'm sure about using SL." Any alternatives?

Step 4a after you finish the family morphs start Poser genre morphs.

alternatives ?

For procedural texturing darksim n substance designer only two I can think of. texture maker uses procedural but it's a different kind of app. darksim n texture maker are all but ghost.substance designer ...

You would think there'd be a lot more procedural texturing app's.

For 2D painting textures.There's a lot of choices. Photoshop & zBrush.probably some of the best current choices for making 2D textures. I don't have in my home studio but 3DCoat or Mari there descent choices also.

substance live would be killer if there EULA allows it . & I can learn substance designer.I swear it has the highest learning curve I've ever seen in CGI.

'You would think there'd be a lot more procedural texturing app's." How long has procedural texturing been around?

"substance live would be killer if there EULA allows it . & I can learn substance designer.I swear it has the highest learning curve I've ever seen in CGI." How restrictive is substances EULA? Are there any courses for substance designer?

Step 4b Still working genre morphs. Here's Sci-Fi Morphs