I was talking primarily in terms of how a new artist would establish and grow themselves in todays market.

A number of the big names have been around for well over a decade, some close to two now, and started when the market, and the competition, was a fraction of what it is today, so they've built a solid customer base through time and don't need to put as much effort into promoting themselves elsewhere as other lesser-knowns and new vendors would, in order to make a comfortable living doing what they do.

Established brand recognition is important but there's nothing that's stopping you from building your own. The point is you don't have to attach yourself to any one brand or store if you don't want to. You can sell through multiple stores or create your own or do both. There are a lot of different paths to success and some take a lot more work than others but they're all possible if you stick with it. It's not going to happen over night though, it takes a lot of time and effort. Do you want to make pocket change or do you want to make a living? The 3D user community is only growing, not shrinking, and with the newer technologies that are coming available there are more markets opening up for content artists all the time. But the bigger it gets the more competition there is, so its important to find ways to stand out from the crowd and get noticed by people who would be interested in your work.

AmbientShade posted at 1:12PM Thu, 09 February 2017 - #4296915

I was talking primarily in terms of how a new artist would establish and grow themselves in todays market.

A number of the big names have been around for well over a decade, some close to two now, and started when the market, and the competition, was a fraction of what it is today, so they've built a solid customer base through time and don't need to put as much effort into promoting themselves elsewhere as other lesser-knowns and new vendors would, in order to make a comfortable living doing what they do.

Established brand recognition is important but there's nothing that's stopping you from building your own. The point is you don't have to attach yourself to any one brand or store if you don't want to. You can sell through multiple stores or create your own or do both. There are a lot of different paths to success and some take a lot more work than others but they're all possible if you stick with it. It's not going to happen over night though, it takes a lot of time and effort. Do you want to make pocket change or do you want to make a living? The 3D user community is only growing, not shrinking, and with the newer technologies that are coming available there are more markets opening up for content artists all the time. But the bigger it gets the more competition there is, so its important to find ways to stand out from the crowd and get noticed by people who would be interested in your work.

I would say some of this is not quite true, but of course that is just my opinion. To me the best way for a lesser known content creators to promote themselves is to partner with strong existing brand umbrellas, to help build their own brand reputation in this market niche. Reputations are built through trust and exposure to customer bases. The best way to build that trust is to gain exposure to your target market, whether that is through freebies or paid content. All the promotion in the world through places such as Facebook will gain little for a new starter, without that critical exposure first. Content builds the content creators brand, better content builds bigger brands in the long term. Self promotion only aids superficial brand development, but mainly maintains existing customer interest. For new or established content creators far beyond self promotion are the partnerships that they can forge to gain them market exposure and help promote their brand to the existing market. Selling in multiple markets is one way of gaining broader exposure, but it is at the risk of brand dilution. Making a big splash in a single dominant market will often go a lot further then lots of little splashes in multiple marketplaces.

When partnered with a single large marketplace it does not mean you are partnered beyond anything than sharing development resources and access to market. Some seem to push that a large marketplace owns your soul in some way, like signing a deal with the devil. But this is just not true from my own experience. Many of the big name vendors that sell through a single market place also work in fields such as artistic visualisation for the movie industry, video game creation, 3rd party 3D content development, etc. There is no contractual obligation to that market partner beyond that they will do their best to sell your latest product to the best of their ability. A single partner market method often simplifies many things for a content creators with an interest in this sector including accounting, self promotion and brand recognition within the sector for their target customers.

A mistake would be seeing an attempt to create your own web marketplace and content creation as the same field. They are very different with an entirely different skill set required for success in either. Creating your own market would be the most high risk method through to market for Poser/DS content by far. The market in this sector is currently fairly condensed with things like game content content development and 3d visualisation circling on the established peripheral. There is a business concept known as "Go to Market" Step one of the concept is always identifying the target market for your product. Step two is in identifying the most direct and efficient path to that target market for your product. An existing marketplace is an existing target market and is the most direct route to market for most products, unless the product does not fit that existing marketplaces demand. Its hard to see why creating a new marketplace makes any sense at all for most content creators, unless that is your main goal and content creation is just a sideline to your main vision.

"There are a lot of different paths to success and some take a lot more work than others but they're all possible if you stick with it. It's not going to happen over night though, it takes a lot of time and effort."

There are lots of ways to do business, but not all of them lead to success even if you try hard and persist. Statistically over 50% of small businesses fail within the first year. The dominant reason has been established as poor strategic planning. A more accurate statement would be "There are many different paths to success and there are many more paths to failure. All of them take time and effort. But research, planning and experience will help you onto that road to success and help to avoid failure."

"But the bigger it gets the more competition there is, so its important to find ways to stand out from the crowd and get noticed by people who would be interested in your work. "

This is entirely true, even when speaking more broadly.

Well you're clearly the expert. Everyone should do it exactly how you say.

People can "do it" however they please. They can feel free to take others advice or not, as they please.

No one said people have to do it any particular way I'm just offering my own perspective on the subject, if that okay with you Ambient?

People can go ahead and create an independent content store for male only content with a lead figures that feature modeled in hair and boots in place of feet, if thats their thing....

Its not just about price or format or where its sold. A lot of the stuff I buy is about quality. I am seeing stuff sold here that really is just bad, Some I would not have touched back in poser5 days. you have really top notch makers selling stuff here next to amateur stuff that is a joke for about the same money. So "How do you determine the price of a model?" then

SoulTaker posted at 2:59PM Thu, 09 February 2017 - #4297007

I am seeing stuff sold here that really is just bad, Some I would not have touched back in poser5 days. you have really top notch makers selling stuff here next to amateur stuff that is a joke for about the same money. So "How do you determine the price of a model?" then

Yep, but that's true at every site. But if it functions as intended and doesn't cause problems when working with it then how good it looks or its quality is subjective. Personally I think lower quality "thrown together in an afternoon" stuff brings down the value of everything else across all the stores that cater to that type of content. But If brokers restricted what they were willing to accept to just the best of the best based on their opinions then they wouldn't sell very much. So as long as it functions as intended then its up to the customers to decide if they're going to buy it based on the promos they're shown. What bothers me more is all the massive sales that basically turn the store into a clearance house and devalues the content across the board for everybody. Once in a while is alright but constantly is ridiculous because it trains people to only buy when there's a massive price cut. So you have bundles of content that would normally sell for $200 or more piece by piece discounted so drastically that people can get the whole thing for less than $10, making the shared profit for all involved literally pennies per sale. But then I look at the quality of the content offered in some of those bundles and realize its really not worth more than a few cents anyway. But again quality is subjective. But it still irks me because those same bundles can have hair and other content in them that actually does take skill and time but they're getting paid the same that the other not-worth-much content is getting.

Razor42 posted at 3:24PM Thu, 09 February 2017 - #4296998

People can go ahead and create an independent content store for male only content with a lead figures that feature modeled in hair and boots in place of feet, if thats their thing....

Game characters often have integrated clothing and hair and still sell well if they're designed well. And that male only content store did very very well while it was running, and it's currently in the process of opening back up - all be it very slowly. So both these examples are not very conducive to your argument.

AmbientShade posted at 10:51AM Fri, 10 February 2017 - #4297024

Razor42 posted at 3:24PM Thu, 09 February 2017 - #4296998

People can go ahead and create an independent content store for male only content with a lead figures that feature modeled in hair and boots in place of feet, if thats their thing....

Game characters often have integrated clothing and hair and still sell well if they're designed well. And that male only content store did very very well while it was running, and it's currently in the process of opening back up - all be it very slowly. So both these examples are not very conducive to your argument.

Yes, But I was not talking about a character designed for game engines. And speaking of subjective "And that male only content store did very very well".

And what argument? An argument that advises that partnering with existing marketplaces is a safer option for content creators, established or otherwise, than establishing an entire new marketplace website? To be an argument, it would seem that you disagree with that advice?

Razor42 posted at 7:19PM Thu, 09 February 2017 - #4297034

AmbientShade posted at 10:51AM Fri, 10 February 2017 - #4297024

Razor42 posted at 3:24PM Thu, 09 February 2017 - #4296998

People can go ahead and create an independent content store for male only content with a lead figures that feature modeled in hair and boots in place of feet, if thats their thing....

Game characters often have integrated clothing and hair and still sell well if they're designed well. And that male only content store did very very well while it was running, and it's currently in the process of opening back up - all be it very slowly. So both these examples are not very conducive to your argument.

Yes, But I was not talking about a character designed for game engines. And speaking of subjective "And that male only content store did very very well".

According to the site's owner and others who worked with him, it did.

And what argument? An argument that advises that partnering with existing marketplaces is a safer option for content creators, established or otherwise, than establishing an entire new marketplace website? To be an argument, it would seem that you disagree with that advice?

I don't disagree that it's easier, what I disagree with is that you seem to think no one, or mostly no one, can make it on their own and have to ride the coat tails of the bigger guys in order to be successful when that's not true. It doesn't matter what industry you're working in, success or failure is always entirely your own fault. I also disagree with your lack of understanding about how important advertising and marketing is to any industry and I don't get why you think the Poser/DS content industry would be any different. It's not nearly as small as you seem to think. There are a lot of people out there who use the software but don't buy from the main content brokers or frequent their forums, but they're buying content from somewhere, and the more you advertise your content outside of the brokerages you sell through - whether it's one of the big sites or your own - the more potential customers you have. Underestimating the power of today's social media is one of the big reasons why a lot of content artists - and other businesses - never get very far. There are also examples of artists becoming hugely successful based entirely on growing their social media following, without the help of anyone else's store or marketing. The other points you make about brand recognition and quality are true to an extent, but even bad art can make a person successful if it finds the right audience.

The number one reason why half of small businesses fail is due to poor or insufficient marketing.

"According to the site's owner and others who worked with him, it did."

Er, that would be subjective opinion right?

"I don't disagree that it's easier, what I disagree with is that you seem to think no one, or mostly no one, can make it on their own and have to ride the coat tails of the bigger guys in order to be successful when that's not true."

So out of all the content creators for the Poser/DSverse what percentage do you think work with a major brokerage? What percentage make it on their own? In my opinion I would say that by far it's the minority that "make it on their own", so that would be mostly no one? Or am I missing something? And again you seem to be blurring DS/Poser content creation and the creation of a Website marketplace as the same pursuit. The creation of the content is essentially the same either way, the difference is the way in which that content is brokered through to the market. The skills required to create, promote and maintain a digital content marketplace are totally different to content creation, why would you blend the two artificially? Do you think the creators of the Steam Store are game designers? Itunes Store designers are musicians? I would also disagree with "riding the coattails" as being an accurate description of the relationship, the partnership is mutually beneficial and the whole is only a sum of its parts.

" I also disagree with your lack of understanding about how important advertising and marketing is to any industry and I don't get why you think the Poser/DS content industry would be any different."

My lack of understanding must stem from my 6 years of study in Marketing and Commercial Arts I guess... It didn't say it was unimportant I said it wasn't the top priority for a new content creator. And not quite as important as some make out in achieving a level of success in the niche market of DS/Poser content creation.

"There are a lot of people out there who use the software but don't buy from the main content brokers or frequent their forums, but they're buying content from somewhere, and the more you advertise your content outside of the brokerages you sell through - whether it's one of the big sites or your own - the more potential customers you have."

Are there? Really how do you know they are truly there, or there actual size? Any references I can see or should I simply take your word for it? Ever heard of the term 'Phantom Market'?

It surprises me that you lump the creation of DS/Poser content into a foundation lot with other similar pursuits like graphic art or 3D design. To most content creators it's just a single arm of what they do as a whole professionally, to be independently marketed and managed strategically as such. It really makes no sense marketing wise to try to make it a multi armed beast. Selling Poser/DS content is not the same as independent Design work of a 3D or otherwise nature, the branding and marketing required for both is quite different and their are many benefits to keeping the two separate from a business point of view. Unless the goal is to come across as some kind of neo-renaissance one man band.

Social media in many circumstances is not as effective as some may think it is at translating to general sales or even brand awareness. Most customers in this type of industry will not actually see your Facebook page until they are already aware of your brand, what you do and your existing sales point(s). A general brand presence is all that is really needed on social media and in most cases may lead to the occasional independent contract, but the direct translation to sales is nowhere near as effective as marketing methods such as direct email. How many people do you think are on Daz or Renderosity mailing list? How many do you think your startup Facebook page will reach in its first five years? Independent contracts for the creation of Poser DS content are also not as common as some seem make out. Often an independent offer will be well under the financial mark of what is achievable for the same item in terms of sales in the mass market.

" but even bad art can make a person successful if it finds the right audience."

The term "bad art" is also rather subjective, one mans trash is another treasure and all that....

Like I said before, you're clearly the expert in this field and poser/ds is its own unique entity unlike anything else in the world that operates on its own laws of relativity. Write a book. I'm not going to waste my time arguing with a no-it-all. Good day.

AmbientShade posted at 1:22PM Fri, 10 February 2017 - #4297040

Like I said before, you're clearly the expert in this field and poser/ds is its own unique entity unlike anything else in the world that operates on its own laws of relativity. Write a book. I'm not going to waste my time arguing with a no-it-all. Good day.

Lol, have it your way Ambient... And I believe the term is "Know it all" ;)

lol typo.

I was looking back through this thread and trying to determine where this conversation became specifically about selling Poser/DS only content and noticed that I'd missed this comment before:

Razor42 posted at 10:50AM Sat, 11 February 2017 - #4296776

In fact I do not think I could name a single vendor in this market sector that sells exclusively through their own site? So I'm not sure where the proof of concept is here?

Xurge3D. (Unless he/they sell at one of the big sites under an entirely different name and style, which I doubt).

Target View 3D. Used to sell at rdna. Also sells content for Maya and other platforms.

And there are a number of other content artists that sell through their own sites - some of which also provide content for Maya, Max and other platforms, on the same site, as well as sell through all the major Poser/DS brokers.

Nice research! You managed to name two stores that currently independently broker 3D content for the Poser market! Daz3D currently has 33 PA's whose name starts with the letter A... Plus this topic was also covered in a bit more detail later in the thread here if you remember. But thanks for answering the question.

Razor42 posted at 11:39AM Sun, 12 February 2017 - #4297039

AmbientShade posted at 11:44AM Sun, 12 February 2017 - #4297037

I don't disagree that it's easier, what I disagree with is that you seem to think no one, or mostly no one, can make it on their own and have to ride the coat tails of the bigger guys in order to be successful when that's not true.

So out of all the content creators for the Poser/DSverse what percentage do you think work with a major brokerage? What percentage make it on their own? In my opinion I would say that by far it's the minority that "make it on their own", so that would be mostly no one? Or am I missing something? And again you seem to be blurring DS/Poser content creation and the creation of a Website marketplace as the same pursuit. The creation of the content is essentially the same either way, the difference is the way in which that content is brokered through to the market. The skills required to create, promote and maintain a digital content marketplace are totally different to content creation, why would you blend the two artificially? Do you think the creators of the Steam Store are game designers? Itunes Store designers are musicians? I would also disagree with "riding the coattails" as being an accurate description of the relationship, the partnership is mutually beneficial and the whole is only a sum of its parts.

That wasn't what I was responding to though. You said you couldn't think of a single vendor that sold exclusively through their own site and I gave you two. Had you asked for any vendors that sold through their own site at all, exclusive or not, I could give you a list of several others, but that wasn't what you said. And why does it matter whether the majority sell through large brokerages or not anyway? That has no relevance to the issue of a vendor's potential for success with selling through their own site. It wouldn't matter if you were the only vendor on the planet who sold through their own site, as long as you're getting enough traffic to that site and sales to make it worth the endeavor. Some vendors even use brokerages as lead-ins to their own site. Kind of like free advertising - that pays you.

Lol, the question was pretty much rhetorical and contextual. Maybe your attempting an Argument from Fallacy approach? As I am not really seeing your actual point.

The context of the question was:

"Actually going it alone is probably one of the options with the highest risk, cost overheads and workloads. I think if you did a cost breakdown per unit you would find that what most marketplaces take as a cut per sale is entirely reasonable considering what they offer in return. In fact I do not think I could name a single vendor in this market sector that sells exclusively through their own site? So I'm not sure where the proof of concept is here?"

The first sentence of the paragraph entirely relates to "going it alone" as a vendor and not partnering with a major marketplace, which was the thread context leading to the comment. The question relates to the fact that there are such a small amount of vendors that do choose to go it entirely on there own, without any partnership with the major markets, which indicates that it is the lesser chosen of the paths possible though to market for content, generally this would indicate it is also the more difficult path. The answer you provided proves only that their is a very small amount of vendors going it alone, which verifies the initial context.

And why does it matter whether the majority sell through large brokerages or not anyway? That has no relevance to the issue of a vendor's potential for success with selling through their own site. It wouldn't matter if you were the only vendor on the planet who sold through their own site, as long as you're getting enough traffic to that site and sales to make it worth the endeavour.

Are you truly serious with this statement? "No relevance" it is completely and entirely relevant. Market is one of the most major factors in any product or sellers chance of success. Don't you think if it was easier and more profitable to sell through an independent website, the majority would participate? Seems like your saying because we don't see many people attempting to flap their arms and gain the power of flight, it doesn't mean that it isn't possible to do so if you flap hard enough... Of course if you have more traffic then all the marketplaces combined you will be as or more successful then they are, the hard part is actually getting that traffic. Just to put it into perspective Xurge3d.com is ranked about the 1,900,962 mark for global site traffic ranking, Daz 3D is 10,206. I wonder how many more customers that translates to in the long term? How much more brand exposure? How much more increased chance of being successful as a content producer in the long term.

Some vendors even use brokerages as lead-ins to their own site. Kind of like free advertising - that pays you.

Or kind of like a dependence on a larger market for upstream click through to their own site? That kind of setup could also be described as a parasite market I guess. Which is fine if that kind of approach appeals to you. Though the practice may be at the expense of the host in the long term, especially if it is more widely adopted by others, and in time it may flow on to be your expense.

Isn't Poserworld an independent vendor? I've never seen Allen or Steve sell their stuff anywhere else although I could easily be wrong.

It appears so based on this statement on their site. It also sounds look like they are attempting to transition to a general 3D market place due to contraction in their existing target market. The use of the word "survive" doesn't exactly scream that they are soaring though.

"Despite membership revenue losses Poser World managed to survive through 2016. As of May of 2016 Poser World is now an individual 3D model and content store."

And I have no issue calling two people an independent vendor I guess. :) So I guess that's out to 3 stores.

Razor42 posted at 10:00AM Sun, 12 February 2017 - #4297200

Lol, the question was pretty much rhetorical and contextual. Maybe your attempting an Argument from Fallacy approach? As I am not really seeing your actual point.

The question was not rhetorical. You made a statement that you thought proved your point and I gave you evidence to the contrary. Now you're trying to move the goal post.

The context of the question was: "Actually going it alone is probably one of the options with the highest risk, cost overheads and workloads.

And I never denied that it was, nor did I advocate or even suggest that everyone should start their own site. All I said was that there were several paths to success, some more difficult than others, and that more artists should put more effort into promoting themselves outside of the brokerages. Somehow you've twisted that around to me suggesting every content artist should start their own site. I do think that more people should attempt it (which you apparently seem to be extremely against for some reason, as though it would ever have any impact on whatever methods you chose to market your own work), but I recognize that it's not the right fit for everyone.

I think if you did a cost breakdown per unit you would find that what most marketplaces take as a cut per sale is entirely reasonable considering what they offer in return.

That is subjective. Maybe to you those costs are worth it, to others they might not be. If you're a top selling artist then I'm sure the costs feel much more worth it than to someone who is just starting out or whose content is more niche (or even controversial), and doesn't get the front page display that others get. And it's more than just cost per sale that you have to consider. What else are you foregoing with that method? How targeted is your audience, or are you just another name among hundreds or thousands of others competing for that same 50 cents on the dollar?

As for cost, it costs very little to run your own site these days if that's the method you choose, and it doesn't take an army of coders or seo experts to do it. We're also not talking about trying to start your own brokerage that houses dozens of other artists content. That's an entirely different entity than marketing yourself. And this isn't the mid 90s where a domain name and hosting package costs hundreds or thousands annually. Most self-aware artists today, especially those who are trying to make a living at it, have their own website to advertise their work, whether they're selling anything directly through their site or not. Or they're active on social media, or they post regularly to the various online galleries that caters to the type of art they produce. It may be something as simple as a blog related to the field of work they do, with links back to their content at whatever brokerage(s) they sell through. It's like a business card for the web. And it doesn't matter what type of art you're creating. 3D is no different than 2D or wood working or oil paints in that regard. All of it requires an audience in order to gain a following. If you don't put your name and work out there then no one is going to find it. And if you're relying on someone else to do all of the work for you then you don't have control over whether or not your work gets promoted or sifted to the bottom. Because at the end of the day that brokerage is going to focus most of its marketing efforts on the content that makes them the most money.

And why does it matter whether the majority sell through large brokerages or not anyway? That has no relevance to the issue of a vendor's potential for success with selling through their own site. It wouldn't matter if you were the only vendor on the planet who sold through their own site, as long as you're getting enough traffic to that site and sales to make it worth the endeavour.

Are you truly serious with this statement?

100% serious.

"No relevance" it is completely and entirely relevant. Market is one of the most major factors in any product or sellers chance of success.

It only seems relevant to you because you seem to be of the mind that no one is capable of making a living on their own in this market without selling through a large broker. Yes market is "one of the most major factors in any product or sellers chance of success", along with quality and appeal. That has nothing to do with whether a large self-contained market is more beneficial to the individual artist than a do-it-yourself approach. One does not equal the other, because everyone has their own goals and ideas about what they want to do and what audience they want to attract. It is up to the individual artist to determine which avenue is the most beneficial to them and their work/brand. When you tie yourself to a particular broker, you also tie yourself to any negative factors affecting that broker. As well, if you don't make the type of content that broker is most recognized for then you reduce your sales potential regardless of how much traffic that broker gets, unless you change gears and start making whatever is the most common content at that store (which can wind up hurting everyone's sales in the long run if you're all making the same thing). You also lock yourself into that broker's expected pricing model. Maybe you have additional features that most others don't put in their products. Should you still charge the same $10 that all the other guys are charging for their products with much fewer features? People are not going to buy from you as often if your products in that brokerage are considerably higher than most of the other products that brokerage contains, even when you list all those extra features. You're still going to get people that think "Yea, but it's still not .99 cents. It should be .99 cents. I think I'll just wait for a sale". That, or you just stop putting in those extra features because no one else does and they're making the same amount on what took you three times as long to make. If however they are familiar with your work outside of any broker then they're more likely to buy from you even if you charge a bit more but also provide a bit more quality and those extra features. Certain stores cater to a certain type of customer. It's an odd phenomenon really but it's human behavior. When you shop at a certain store you expect to pay a certain price for most anything you buy in that store. When you go down the street to another store your mindset changes as soon as you walk in the door and you're more willing to pay 5 or 10% more for the exact same pair of jeans you refused to buy down the road for the exact same price. Which leads back to the initial subject of the thread really - that being price disparities between Poser/DS content and other 3D content. If more artists took the initiative to "leave the nest" so to speak, maybe their content would start gaining more respect and command a higher price tag. And in turn it would start becoming a bit more diverse. At least it would have a better chance at coming up a bit closer to the prices of content in other similar markets and break the clearance basket "hobbyist" mold that's been the standard in this market for so long. But that first requires an understanding that there is virtually no difference between Poser content and Maya content, and it's a misnomer that "other" 3D content is priced for commercial entities or that sites like TS only sell to studios. (TS has twice the traffic that daz has. Do you honestly believe that there are twice the number of studios and professionals buying content from them than there are hobbyists and indie artists?) It might also help to attract a more diverse group of content artists who are more familiar with the higher end market. One of the main reasons this market suffers from lack of diversity is due to how cheap most of its content is expected to be. A lot of the originals have wandered off to greener pastures because of it. There are key reasons for why that is, but pointing them out would start a game of finger pointing that I'm not interested in getting into.

Don't you think if it was easier and more profitable to sell through an independent website, the majority would participate?

Again, I never said that it was easier. And No, I don't think that at all. Because the majority of artists in any field often don't know how to market themselves effectively (hence the term starving artist). Or they aren't interested in marketing themselves, especially if they have someone else that's willing to do it for them. That has nothing to do with which method is more profitable.

Daz3D currently has 33 PA's whose name starts with the letter A...

Of all those 33 names for the letter A, how many of them are featured, or even mentioned, in the newsletter when they release a new product? If I want to see everything that's been released that day I have to go to the site because that newsletter only showed me 1 to 3 products from the top sellers. And if there's nothing in the newsletter that makes me want to go look at the site, then I don't see anything else that got released that day unless I make a conscious effort to do so. It might even be weeks before I see something in that newsletter that compels me to go check out the site, and by then how many products from other lesser-known artists will have dropped off the front page? Going by your logic everyone that sells through one of these large brokers who has more than a handful of items in their catalog should be making a full time living on their content due to all the exposure they get from being at that broker, when we all know that is the complete opposite from the truth. The brokerages put most of their efforts into promoting their top sellers while the rest get to hope their content gets seen by the ones looking for whatever featured product was in that mailer. This is not targeted marketing. It is essentially survival of the fittest while everyone involved pays the same for advertising costs. In order for a new content artist to gain the exposure that their 50% cut is supposed to be paying for, that artist essentially has to prove themselves to the broker. I'm not damning the brokers here, they're in it for the money and I have no major gripes with how rosity or daz do things.

Seems like your saying because we don't see many people attempting to flap their arms and gain the power of flight, it doesn't mean that it isn't possible to do so if you flap hard enough...

And it seems to me you're saying most vendors sell through large brokers because it's virtually impossible for anyone to advertise themselves or make a living on their work otherwise.

Of course if you have more traffic then all the marketplaces combined you will be as or more successful then they are,

You don't need more traffic than all the marketplaces combined. Where is the logic in that? You don't even need as much traffic as one of the market places. You only need enough traffic to generate the interest and sales your business requires to make it successful. And because all of your traffic is targeted at your products you aren't competing for sales. People visit your site because they're interested in your content, not the content of 600 other people.

The hard part is actually getting that traffic.

It's not that hard. Like I said before, there are numerous methods for generating your own traffic - whether your store is located in a large brokerage or on your own site, the methods of obtaining it are virtually the same. A large brokerage gives (the potential for) additional exposure, absolutely, but unless you're one of their top sellers then you're just another name among all the others. Filler.

Just to put it into perspective Xurge3d.com is ranked about the 1,900,962 mark for global site traffic ranking, Daz 3D is 10,206. I wonder how many more customers that translates to in the long term? How much more brand exposure? How much more increased chance of being successful as a content producer in the long term.

Ranking means very little. You have to look at actual traffic numbers. How much of the traffic from that 1,900,962 ranking is directly targeted to xurge3D's products? (hint: 100%), as opposed to the traffic from Daz's ranking of 10,206 spread among 600. Also, anyone at daz or the other brokerages who sell add-on content for xurge's clothing sets are driving at least a small amount of targeted traffic to xurge's site. Clearly he's never going to get the same amount of traffic as daz gets because his content is specialized and he's just one artist. But does he need all that traffic driving up his bandwidth costs if they aren't buying anything because he doesn't make what they're looking for?

Let's put it in another perspective - the guy's been in business for 11 years. Maybe this is just a side gig for pocket change and he's not really worried about how much he makes at it. Who knows, I don't know him and I'm not familiar with what else he does. But regardless, if he thought a large brokerage was more profitable or a better option than his own site, don't you think he'd be selling at one by now? For that matter, why haven't the guys at Poserworld not given in and gone to rosity or daz by now?

Some vendors even use brokerages as lead-ins to their own site. Kind of like free advertising - that pays you.

Or kind of like a dependence on a larger market for upstream click through to their own site? That kind of setup could also be described as a parasite market I guess. Which is fine if that kind of approach appeals to you.

Parasite market? Then wouldn't just about every vendor in that brokerage also classify as such, whether they are promoting their own products or someone else's. By that logic even Daz would classify as such, since - even though they only sell in their own store, every one of these vendors at all the stores are indirectly marketing for Daz when they build content that supports daz content, or that requires their software. That's what daz's business model is based on, after all. Instead, I think a better term for those using this method would be more akin to loss-leader, not unlike what retail stores do when they sell products at or below cost in order to get people into the store in hopes that they will buy other products while they're there. The difference of course being that it is all under the same roof. If you're selling 'sample' content at one of the large brokerages, then it serves as a lead-in, or loss-leader, if you also sell other content at your own site or a different site. You're potentially losing money on that 50% cut, but you're generating more potential traffic to your site if people like your content and want to find more of it, which they often do, so they pull up google or bing to see where else you sell. That's not parasitic. That's advertising.

Though the practice may be at the expense of the host in the long term, especially if it is more widely adopted by others, and in time it may flow on to be your expense.

How? Explain. Because this is essentially how this entire ecosystem we've created actually works. All the brokerages, no matter how big or small, indirectly promote another store's content by allowing vendors to sell supporting content for figures and content that have to be obtained from outside sources. Every vendor at Renderosity who makes content for V4 is indirectly advertising for Daz. Every vendor who makes content for Pauline is indirectly advertising for Smith Micro. The only way that would not be the case is if the store only allows vendors to sell products that support other products within that store.

Social media in many circumstances is not as effective as some may think it is at translating to general sales or even brand awareness.

Is that so? Then why do rosity and daz both have affiliate programs, with quotes like this: >Many of our top affiliated make $10,000+ in commissions monthly. Where do you think those affiliates are doing all that advertising if they aren't using social media and/or their own sites? Or is daz just making that up to attract more affiliates?

Most customers in this type of industry will not actually see your Facebook page until they are already aware of your brand, what you do and your existing sales point(s).

Sounds like speculation to me. Where is your proof of that? It also sounds like you don't really understand what social media is used for or how it works. People. Sharing. That's it. That's your marketing machine. People share everything these days. From pictures they like, to recipes, to boyfriends. However Facebook would not be my first choice as an artist to promote myself. It definitely has its merits but there are other more appropriate platforms for an artist to build an audience.

A general brand presence is all that is really needed on social media and in most cases may lead to the occasional independent contract, but the direct translation to sales is nowhere near as effective as marketing methods such as direct email. How many do you think your startup Facebook page will reach in its first five years?

5 years is a long time. Half a decade. How many do you want it to reach? How active with it are you? You can't just create a page, make a post or two and hope someone sees it or shares it eventually. You have to work at it. Consistently and routinely. I've seen several artists of various mediums grow their social media audience from nothing to thousands in less than half that time. And again, facebook is just one of numerous platforms, each having its own strengths and weaknesses. You have to find the one that works best for what you're trying to do.

Independent contracts for the creation of Poser DS content are also not as common as some seem make out. Often an independent offer will be well under the financial mark of what is achievable for the same item in terms of sales in the mass market.

It's been my primary means of income for a few years now and while it hasn't been great its been decent for me more often than not. I've also made content for people that's extremely niche and I know would not generate enough sales to make my time invested worth it. But it was worth it to those people to pay me good money to make it. Had I put those items in the stores I might have gotten half a dozen sales at best.

The majority of 3D artists are freelancers and the median annual income for 3D artists in the US is around $50-$60K. If it didn't pay very well then that would not be the case. There is no rule that you have to or even should keep Poser and other 3D content separate from a marketing perspective. There's zero reason for it that I can see.

And my entire point was simply that there are a lot of paths for content artists in this market to make a living doing what they enjoy doing and more would be able to do so if they took the initiative to market themselves and take advantage of the tools that are available to them virtually for free.

A quote from Dreamlight 3D's blog, from back in 2010:

Those who make it big are those who learn to sell and market. Not content creators… ...I would have been out of business a long time ago, if I didn´t learn to sell on my own…

Lol wow, where do I start. Maybe I should say first looks like I am not the only know it all in town.

The question was not rhetorical. You made a statement that you thought proved your point and I gave you evidence to the contrary. Now you're trying to move the goal post.

It was a question hence the "?" at the end and it was clearly rhetorical and your clearly trying to use an argument from fallacy approach. Disproving a small point does not disprove the conclusion unless the conclusion is entirely dependent on the small point. I haven't moved any goal posts.

I do think that more people should attempt it (which you apparently seem to be extremely against for some reason, as though it would ever have any impact on whatever methods you chose to market your own work), but I recognize that it's not the right fit for everyone.

I am not against it in the slightest I would just like to advise any content creator that pursues this option to add small business management, accounting, Web site management and marketing to their list of credentials. As Content creation and managing a Web store are in no way directly connected. And are far from a logical path to market.

That is subjective. Maybe to you those costs are worth it, to others they might not be.

Of course its subjective hence the context of the statement "I think if you did a cost breakdown". Here is a secret for you, its a concept know as Keystone pricing which is practised by pretty much every retailer around the globe. The core of the concept is take the cost price of an item and double it to find the actual retail price. Why do you think the main streets around the world are not covered in shops selling individual items direct to market? Clearly for content creators going through a broader market is the most efficient method in both cost and likely return. It doesn't mean you cannot attempt other methods if you prefer, it just means you will be going against the flow with increased risks and increased cost per unit also. So your chance of success in the long term will be lower.

It only seems relevant to you because you seem to be of the mind that no one is capable of making a living on their own in this market without selling through a large broker. Yes market is "one of the most major factors in any product or sellers chance of success", along with quality and appeal. That has nothing to do with whether a large self-contained market is more beneficial to the individual artist than a do-it-yourself approach....

I'm sorry but myself and by far the majority of the worlds product producers will just need to agree to disagree with you here. As clearly we see this entirely different.

It is up to the individual artist to determine which avenue is the most beneficial to them and their work/brand.

I think part of the issue here is that I am talking directly about being a Daz/Poser content creator and you are talking much more broadly with concepts like the "Artist" flying the nest.

When you tie yourself to a particular broker, you also tie yourself to any negative factors affecting that broker. You also lock yourself into that broker's expected pricing model.

I am not sure what you mean by tie or lock to a broker? There is no contractual tie to a broker with either pricing or commitment you are free to come or go, sell or not sell with them or even price your products as you please.

Maybe you have additional features that most others don't put in their products. Should you still charge the same $10 that all the other guys are charging for their products with much fewer features? People are not going to buy from you as often if your products in that brokerage are considerably higher than most of the other products that brokerage contains, even when you list all those extra features.

This is just not correct, some of the biggest selling PA's also have some of the highest price tags on their products with fewer deep sales. This is more common in a bargain basement style market, not in one where there are stricter submission processes.

But that first requires an understanding that there is virtually no difference between Poser content and Maya content, and it's a misnomer that "other" 3D content is priced for commercial entities or that sites like TS only sell to studios.

The understanding required is not that the content is or isn't different, it's that the target market is different and marketing and content design needs to be focused as such. The Poser content market and the Maya content market are very different organisms. A "misnomer"! you think hobbyists are prepared to pay $200 for a static prop? I think you are missing the point that one product sale at $200 - %50 is less than 400 sales at 15.95 - %50. Cheaper pricing does not always equal lower returns. There is nothing stopping any 3d content creator from selling with Turbosquid though from what I hear it's not the most lucrative market to pursue.

"Of all those 33 names for the letter A, how many of them are featured, or even mentioned, in the newsletter when they release a new product?"

All of them, you clearly are unaware how marketing works at Daz3D... You need to look a bit closer rather than drawing assumptions.

If I want to see everything that's been released that day I have to go to the site because that newsletter only showed me 1 to 3 products from the top sellers.

Er, no.

Going by your logic everyone that sells through one of these large brokers who has more than a handful of items in their catalog should be making a full time living on their content due to all the exposure they get from being at that broker, when we all know that is the complete opposite from the truth.

Now you are just attempting to put words into my my mouth, I am not saying this at all. What I am saying is the that for a new seller that has partnered with a major market with a few new items. The ROI is likely to be higher per item, the brand awareness through exposure is likely to be higher, leading to the chances of continuing to progress down this route to a full time profession is increased by that partnership.

Sorry but we all don't know that is the opposite of the truth? And frankly I don't even know what you mean by that?

This is not targeted marketing. It is essentially survival of the fittest while everyone involved pays the same for advertising costs. In order for a new content artist to gain the exposure that their 50% cut is supposed to be paying for, that artist essentially has to prove themselves to the broker. I'm not damning the brokers here, they're in it for the money and I have no major gripes with how rosity or daz do things.

You really have lost touch with how the market leading brand is working haven't you. If this is what the thought process of this part of the market is like. No wonder there is such a direct decline. Your sum up of partnership benefits comes across as paranoid and somewhat delusional. A partner is not the be all and end all solution, its a tool to be used to promote yourself and increase sales.

And it seems to me you're saying most vendors sell through large brokers because it's virtually impossible for anyone to advertise themselves or make a living on their work otherwise.

Er again words in my mouth... No I'm saying that going it alone will extremely limit their chance of success and most of their time will be consumed with the admin and marketing side of the business. But it is not impossible if entered into with realistic expectations of the work involved in this route to market.

You only need enough traffic to generate the interest and sales your business requires to make it successful.

Oh the insight!!!

It's not that hard. Like I said before, there are numerous methods for generating your own traffic - whether your store is located in a large brokerage or on your own site, the methods of obtaining it are virtually the same. A large brokerage gives (the potential for) additional exposure, absolutely, but unless you're one of their top sellers then you're just another name among all the others. Filler.

What? Not that hard? Maybe I made a mistake entering this discussion here. You think competing at a brokerage against other vendors is hard yet, competing against the entire Internet for traffic is no big thing...

Let's put it in another perspective - the guy's been in business for 11 years. Maybe this is just a side gig for pocket change and he's not really worried about how much he makes at it. Who knows, I don't know him and I'm not familiar with what else he does. But regardless, if he thought a large brokerage was more profitable or a better option than his own site, don't you think he'd be selling at one by now? For that matter, why haven't the guys at Poserworld not given in and gone to rosity or daz by now?

This is some very bizarre reasoning. If Coke sells better than Pepsi, why doesn't Pepsi just sell out to Coke... I'm sorry but I really cannot get my head around your point here. Are you saying that because their are two sites selling content separate from Daz Renderosity, with one openly declaring its last year as survival, that they must be doing better then they would if they were selling with the major markets? Again this is a logical fallacy argument. You seem to be saying because they are independent they must be doing better than they would if they were not. There is no evidence to draw that conclusion that I can see?

Then wouldn't just about every vendor in that brokerage also classify as such, whether they are promoting their own products or someone else's.

There is a difference between a symbiotic relationship and a parasitic one.

I think a better term for those using this method would be more akin to loss-leader, not unlike what retail stores do when they sell products at or below cost in order to get people into the store in hopes that they will buy other products while they're there.

Man you are clearly confused that is not the definition of a Loss leader product. Loss leader products have nothing to do with using larger markets to draw sales from in competition. For example Daz studio is a Loss leader product for Daz 3D. Parasitic means drawing nutrient through a host with no benefit to the actual host. Which exactly described the setup you are putting forward.

That's not parasitic that's advertising.

No it's both. Let me ask why won't Renderosity allow me to post a link to my product at Daz3D?

How? Explain. Because this is essentially how this entire ecosystem we've created actually works. All the brokerages, no matter how big or small, indirectly promote another store's content by allowing vendors to sell supporting content for figures and content that have to be obtained from outside sources. Every vendor at Renderosity who makes content for V4 is indirectly advertising for Daz. Every vendor who makes content for Pauline is indirectly advertising for Smith Micro. The only way that would not be the case is if the store only allows vendors to sell products that support other products within that store.

Man if you can't see how parasite markets can effect a host market in the long term, I would really suggest you do some research on competition in the mass market. This probably more directly relates to Daz than Poser tbh. As it is not truly possible to use your described technique with Smith Micro.

Is that so? Then why do rosity and daz both have affiliate programs, with quotes like this: >Many of our top affiliated make $10,000+ in commissions monthly. Where do you think those affiliates are doing all that advertising if they aren't using social media and/or their own sites? Or is daz just making that up to attract more affiliates?

Again this come down to doing some research. A large companies marketing and social media effectiveness is entirely different than an individual trying to push a an emerging brand. I'm not going to go into detail but the information is out their and freely available. Different marketing venues have different effective value depending on the product and the customer. It really is basic marketing Ambient. A local radio add for Poser content is never going to meet ROI, no matter how effective it is for car maintenance. You can't just lump every product and target market together and say its all the same.

Sounds like speculation to me. Where is your proof of that?

Want proof pick any new Vendor and visit their Facebook page, you may even be surprised how low the like count is on what would be considered a highly successful content creator.

There is no rule that you have to or even should keep Poser and other 3D content separate from a marketing perspective. There's zero reason for it that I can see.

I give up. You just can't blur everything together and say its the same.

And my entire point was simply that there are a lot of paths for content artists in this market to make a living doing what they enjoy doing and more would be able to do so if they took the initiative to market themselves and take advantage of the tools that are available to them virtually for free.

Man this is blurry as. "many paths in this market" which market are you talking about? The art market in general? It's hardly really advice is it?

There are many ways to proceed to wherever you need to go and you can get there if you take advantage of the many different ways of getting their, most ways of getting there are free if you know how to get them for free. But ultimately you will get there, if you keep going to where you want to go.

Sage like I must say. :P

This is a curious discussion and I'm quite puzzled and perhaps someone can lend some enlightenment. This is a discussion on how vendors set prices on things in a broker-based marketplace, correct? Razor has a store at Rendo and DAZ3D and sets prices accordingly. Ambient doesn't a store at all as he freelances for his income. Ambient, knowing you don't have a store to dispute Razor on how prices are set, how are you coming up with your observations? This is very curious every time someone that doesn't have a base to discuss the topic at hand, yet the argument spans two pages. Can you elaborate, please?

Razor42 posted at 10:49PM Sun, 12 February 2017 - #4297265

Lol, the way you've selectively edited the parts of my post that you chose to quote makes it read as though I am against brokerages or anybody selling through them. Thanks CNN.

I'm not against any brokerages or anyone using them. The only place I've ever sold to the general public has been renderosity, and I plan to again. I'm aware of the benefits and the limitations.

I really don't know how I can make what I said anymore clearer. Obviously we come from two very different mindsets.

No it's both. Let me ask why won't Renderosity allow me to post a link to my product at Daz3D?

You don't need to post a link to your product at daz3d for it to still be advertising for Daz3d. If you create a product for V4, that product description is going to list V4 as a requirement for that product to work. That in itself is the advertising. Your name being at the top of the product page is your own advertising. So if someone googles your name and you have content listed somewhere else they will find that content, or at least the site listing it, by googling your name, if you've used the proper key words to show up in search engines. How is that so difficult of a concept to understand? And you are calling it parasitic marketing as though it's something bad or that no one does it when that is virtually the exact model this particular market has developed around.

Everyone marketing themselves online does not need a college degree in marketing or web design or accounting. That's just ridiculous.

Maybe I don't have the insider's scoop on how daz markets, but I can look a the newsletters in my inbox every night and compare them to what I see on their store page and see that every new product is not in that newsletter. I guess my eyes are lying to me.

A new vendor posting on facebook isn't going to have a lot of followers the first week or even the first month. And if they're just posting facebook ads linking back to their product whenever they have a new release then no that probably won't get them very far in a short period of time. How about posting renders of that product to other services like deviant art, or the galleries right here at rosity with a link back to the product page in the rosity store? Very few vendors do that, even when the comments ask for what products are being used here or there. How about offering incentives to your regular customers or exclusive freebies to your own newsletter subscribers? There are a lot of ways to market yourself. You're supposed to be the creative type. But I realize that coming up with excuses is much easier than solutions.

Have you actually tried any of the methods I mentioned or anything other than relying on your brokerage?

I'll respond to the rest when I have more time.

AmbientShade posted at 4:07PM Mon, 13 February 2017 - #4297272

Razor42 posted at 10:49PM Sun, 12 February 2017 - #4297265

Lol, the way you've selectively edited the parts of my post that you chose to quote makes it read as though I am against brokerages or anybody selling through them. Thanks CNN.

I'm not against any brokerages or anyone using them. The only place I've ever sold to the general public has been renderosity, and I plan to again. I'm aware of the benefits and the limitations.

I really don't know how I can make what I said anymore clearer. Obviously we come from two very different mindsets.

C'mon Ambient I am not misrepresenting you at all. That is the position you have clearly chosen to express here. My position is that the best way for an emerging vendor to attain success in the Poser/DS content marketplace is to partner with a major marketplace to establish their brand presence and to build momentum to whatever their future direction might be. Establishing a basic foundation to build from, built from the success of the major marketplaces which are the core of this market sector and also the primary sales point for most Poser/DS content purchases. Secondary brand marketing through social media or gallery sites is merely incidental and should be approached with a niche marketing and customer retention outlook for this sector in my opinion. It appears you are actively dismissing this approach and up playing the route of independently creating your own marketplace even so that marketplace itself depends and draws from the existing mainstream markets or going even further and implying that vendors should abandon a targeted market approach all together and take a more generic view on content production and sales selling across diverse target markets. That's your advice and that's fine, to me that approach is of concern and fraught with risk, especially for an emerging content creator let alone someone more experienced with the market nuances.

A new vendor posting on facebook isn't going to have a lot of followers the first week or even the first month. And if they're just posting facebook ads linking back to their product whenever they have a new release then no that probably won't get them very far in a short period of time. How about posting renders of that product to other services like deviant art, or the galleries right here at rosity with a link back to the product page in the rosity store? Very few vendors do that, even when the comments ask for what products are being used here or there. How about offering incentives to your regular customers or exclusive freebies to your own newsletter subscribers? There are a lot of ways to market yourself. You're supposed to be the creative type. But I realize that coming up with excuses is much easier than solutions.

Have you actually tried any of the methods I mentioned or anything other than relying on your brokerage?

Not to make this personal Ambient, but it appears you may be reaching for the tape measure already.

For a start, who said I have a problem in this regard? The marketing people I am currently partnered with have been extremely effective in moving my products to their intended target market and also offered valuable advice in regards to my own development as a content creator and also their own future directions as a business. I really don't have a problem and don't intend on any changes to my current strategy in this aspect of my work. I would actually go as far as to sing its praises as I have found that this partnership has given me more creative freedom then when I was working on a freelance basis with individual clientele. I do have a business Facebook page associated with this side of my work, currently it has close to 400 likes and has been up now for close to 4 years. It's mainly focused these days on General sector news and offering freebies through a custom tab, with no sign in required or like gating in place. I also have a deviant art account which is primarily used to follow others and their art and not really as a promotional tool. My gallery here at Renderosity had well over a 100 images in it, before I removed it for reasons I won't go into here. I am a member in around half a dozen other 3D Art communities around the web and a number of other targeted marketplaces mainly in the gaming sector. I have done freelance work for currently available video games, that have netted myself 5 figure payments. My more distant past was heavily involved in operational logistics, marketing, graphic design and web site design, so am quite familiar with marketing approaches and what paths offer higher risk and lower chance of a profitable return. I have been working primarily as a content developer for DS/Poser for around 4 years now. Last year I spent 4 months on holiday travelling around Europe and working from a laptop at leisure. And may I ask the same of yourself? How many of the marketing methods you mentioned have you tried yourself? What were the results? Are you happy with your current numbers in this sector? Don't worry these are all also rhetorical questions, I thought I should make that clear this time :D. I am sure we can discuss this topic without it becoming so personal or a duck measuring match, can't we?

Everyone marketing themselves online does not need a college degree in marketing or web design or accounting. That's just ridiculous.

No one said they do. But entering into a business type setup with no knowledge of any of those things is clearly not planning for success is it? In the opposite respect are you saying no knowledge in these fields would be a better starting point? Clearly not.

@AmbientShade

I admire your patience and persistence - if it was me I would have turned to drink by now..

Some people will just never get it

DreaminGirl posted at 6:07PM Mon, 13 February 2017 - #4297278

@AmbientShade

I admire your patience and persistence - if it was me I would have turned to drink by now..

Some people will just never get it

Very true DreaminGirl... What's with "Some people" hey?

DreaminGirl posted at 3:15AM Mon, 13 February 2017 - #4297278

@AmbientShade

I admire your patience and persistence - if it was me I would have turned to drink by now..

lol, how do you think i've lasted around here this long?

I think we have reached the point where this thread could easily go south and turn more into an open personal disagreement session rather then an open discussion about the subject the OP raised. I honestly don't think anyone wants to see it go that way. So I will say I do understand where you are coming from Ambient, Rorr and others that have contributed and honestly no offence intended, it's nothing personal whatsoever and thanks for the chat. It was good to read others perspectives on the subject even if I do disagree with some points. But I think I should step out now to avoid the risk of hitting a point of Ad Nauseum, if that point hasn't already been reached, What your saying isn't wrong in anyway, I just disagree with some of your points from my own perspective and thought I would offer a different perspective for any wading through this long thread. Feel free to further debate the points I have raised, especially if you do think what I am saying isn't correct in your own view. And I will stop by to read any further responses form here. But please lets try to keep it on subject and impersonal in approach rather than turning it into another pitched battle between good and evil.

All the best guys and good luck with whichever way you choose to tackle or participate in this awesome field we are all a part of.

Razor, I wasn't asking for your bank statements, lol. Nor was I trying to get personal info. None of my business. I simply asked what if any methods you've applied, thinking that maybe I could understand your reasoning a bit better if you had come back with some examples of methods you'd tried that haven't worked for you so you've soured towards them and that's influencing your opinion on the subject. Because you seem to think that entrepreneurial online marketing via social media is primarily a waste of time and energy (your words) and isn't an effective strategy for this particular brand of art-related marketing. That's the main part I don't understand. When it's all boiled down Poser content is really no different than marketing any other type of art online. And there are numerous examples - thousands even - of artists of all mediums marketing their work themselves using proven, time-tested strategies that have been highly successful. Of course for every success there are 10 failures but that doesn't mean the strategies don't work. I just can't see how Poser/DS could be so much different and I've been in this 3D content game for well over 10 years now. Even went to school for it, and yes marketing and psychology took up a good chunk of my courses. I can't claim 6 years of it because it wasn't the focus. I also spend a great deal of time listening to podcasts from other successful freelance artists who all basically say what I'm saying, though their work is usually more 2D related, in the end there is not much difference.

In that case I guess an article like this may help you to see where I am coming from. https://www.entrepreneur.com/article/288703

I'm not sure if you know but Renderosity added Google Analytic support for vendors here quite a while back. You can see exactly where the traffic comes from that reaches your store page, which helps to analyse what forms of marketing truly lead to actual purchases here. And no surprise 95-99% of traffic comes from newsletters, sale pages or the front page of the marketplace and even some more unexpected obscure sources occasionally. Maybe 1% traffic that reach your store page comes from other external personal marketing efforts and less then that make an actual purchase. My advice would be to match that to the effort put in unless you are really looking to achieve something outside of the box. Of course that is has been my personal observation, mileage may vary I guess.

Entrepreneurial online marketing can work and work very well in some cases, but not in all cases all of the time. Trial and effort and at least hearing out advice from those that have tried before is often a good gauge to get a bearing on when it may not work the way you expect it would. The detail is often in small differences.

Ok, I'm out now :) Really need to get some work done to back up all my talk.

Anyways 3 pages n not one post ,paragraph or even a sentence that actually tells me in detail how to make $100,000.00 in 2017 as a vender.

All right Male_M3dia ,Razor42 start talking :)

Thanks for the article.

And no surprise 95-99% of traffic comes from newsletters, sale pages or the front page of the marketplace and even some more unexpected obscure sources occasionally.

No, that isn't surprising at all, especially when you consider that the majority of vendors don't spend any time engaging their audience or trying to grow their fanbase outside of the brokerage they're selling through. How many of them even bother to participate in the forums? Or the galleries? How many of them post tutorials on youtube or make actual art featuring their work on their own site or the plethora of other galleries out there? Posting facebook ads when you have a new product release isn't exactly engaging your fanbase. Most of that is just going to be seen as an ad trying to sell something and will be ignored unless it's something someone is particularly interested in.

How many of your customers actually know anything about you or why you do what you do or what inspires you? If you approach it as a salesman trying to push as many widgets out the door as possible then you're competing with every other salesman out there who is doing the exact same thing. What makes your widget any different than the next guy's widget? Are you a salesman or an artist selling his work to his fans?

Those questions aren't specifically targeted at you Razor. You seem to be at a comfortable position so a lot of what I've said probably doesn't apply.

But for others it might.

Inspiration

If you aren't happy doing what you're doing then you shouldn't be doing it.

Ok, I'm out now :) Really need to get some work done to back up all my talk.

Me too, definitely.

I see.

Have you seen this Rendo announcement, Ambient?

https://www.renderosity.com/2016-vendor-of-the-year-and-exclusive-vendor-of-the-year-announced-cms-18876

It announces the Vendor of the year for 2016 as Out of Touch, for the previous year it was Ironman13. Congrats to both of them.

Vendor of the year is generally based on sales and success in the market right?

Now try doing a little search in Google for both and see how much of what is being described above is being done by either of these successful vendors. In fact I had trouble finding any social media style branding from these two artist that had been updated in a very long time. Yet both vendors stores here at Renderosity have close to 1.5 million views since the counter started.

Seems strange that...

OK renders done, back to it :)

Male_M3dia posted at 6:08AM Tue, 14 February 2017 - #4297266

This is a curious discussion and I'm quite puzzled and perhaps someone can lend some enlightenment. This is a discussion on how vendors set prices on things in a broker-based marketplace, correct? Razor has a store at Rendo and DAZ3D and sets prices accordingly. Ambient doesn't a store at all as he freelances for his income. Ambient, knowing you don't have a store to dispute Razor on how prices are set, how are you coming up with your observations? This is very curious every time someone that doesn't have a base to discuss the topic at hand, yet the argument spans two pages. Can you elaborate, please?

Well, to be honest, this whole conversation seems to have drifted somewhat far afield from my original intent and question. To the point where I honestly don't know what Razor and Shane are even saying to each other. I'm not wading through all that without hip boots. But to address your concern, Shane did say that he has sold here at Renderosity before and plans to do so again. So, yeah, I would say that gives him the experience you seem concerned about.

Shutterstock is the largest broker of photos, fine art and illustrations on the internet, with over 6 million visitors a month.

So if I ever have any hope of being a successful artist then my only real option is to sell my work through shutterstock, because no one ever looks for art anywhere else so any kind of self promotion I try would be a complete waste of time and energy. And if they don't accept my work because it doesn't meet their standards, or it isn't the type of work they carry, or if it gets buried under all the boob shots, then I guess I'm just screwed, unless I want to start taking boob shots. Besides, that other guy is a top seller and has 50 pages of boob shots! And he doesn't even have a facebook page.

I give up.

I think I'll go talk to this wall over here.

EClark1894 We half to read between the lines I guess.

The formula to make $100,000.00 as a vender is to make sexy close for G3 n have a few naked preview renders ,Just copy Out of Touch n Ironman13 prices.

Out of Touch has 15 pages of stuff ,Ironman13 has 10 pages of stuff .So we might be a page or two short.

AmbientShade posted at 9:20AM Wed, 15 February 2017 - #4297490

Shutterstock is the largest broker of photos, fine art and illustrations on the internet, with over 6 million visitors a month.

So if I ever have any hope of being a successful artist then my only real option is to sell my work through shutterstock, because no one ever looks for art anywhere else so any kind of self promotion I try would be a complete waste of time and energy. And if they don't accept my work because it doesn't meet their standards, or it isn't the type of work they carry, or if it gets buried under all the boob shots, then I guess I'm just screwed, unless I want to start taking boob shots. Besides, that other guy is a top seller and has 50 pages of boob shots! And he doesn't even have a facebook page.

I give up.

I think I'll go talk to this wall over here.

So your recommedation for your unboob friendly photographer would be to not use shutterstock at all but build his own stock photo empire from the ground up primarily marketed through grass roots social media efforts...

Okay lets try it differently, you're endorsing methods different than used by the current top sellers in this market place. Maybe if you could name some successful content creators that have used your method to become a top seller in this market through its use t would help to validate it.

What you also can't seem to see is that the two vendors of the year are using the technique that i have described. Focus on producing good quality content in volume and use social media only as a very small part of your efforts. No one said you have to create the same types of things they do. That is the slant that you took.

Oh look, an exit.

Lol, Its no big thing its just a difference of opinion.

Ambient firmly believes that Social media marketing channels are essential to success in this market and the mass markets are not.

I tend to believe pretty much the exact opposite, Social media is more like a personal diary aimed at people that have already discovered you and ignoring the mass markets can only hinder a content creators progression in the wider market. The reasons I believe this are to do with my own experience and talking with my peers in this market sector.

Another thing that isn't helping is that Ambient insists that selling a digital cupboard with or without articulating draws, is exactly the same as selling an abstract oil painting titled 'Freedom for Africa'. (With articulating draws is better imo ;) )

A simple question turned into a little more than a simple disagreement between some and for that, I apologize.

This will be dealt with asap.

EClark1894 posted at 7:12PM Tue, 14 February 2017 - #4297511

Oh look, an exit.

ROFL !!!

Heres a few ideas that I've done personally and that folks I've worked with have used...

Use more than one brokerage as well as your own site. On your site run sales, vouchers, BOGOFF and other general sales promotions as you would with a bricks and mortar store.

Generic social media - twitter, facebook, linkedin. Dedicated CG media - forums like here, art sites like deviant art.

Sponsor contests/provide prizes/gift certifcates at CG art sites.

Create a wide mix of freebies and upload to a variety of sites as well as your own.

Get freebies/products into 3D magazines free section. Used to be coverdiscs now generally time limited secure online areas.

Purchase print media adverts in dedicated CG magazines. Purchase adwords.

Get a stand/give a talk about producing CG art at 3d and comicbook Conventions. Get local - promote your work or run a workshop at a community centre or art gallery.

Co-operate with other sellers/artists, co-produce products and cross promote.

Help where you can. Don't diss newbies like some folks do. Don't feed the forum trolls or waste time on naysayers. These latter two types don't like others being sucessfull because they feel it takes attention away from them.

Be straight. Want to see poser artists using your famous movie inspired model?. Make it free, you'll get more respect, artists using - and namechecking your stuff, more site traffic and postive attention from others.
Plus no tears before bedtime.

...anyone else got any ideas?

Also when making stuff consider what "status" your product will have in most peoples renders.

Unless you're making clothing, characters etc. Truth is 90% of the time it won't be the main focus, the focus will be a skinny white girl. your hard work will be be a secondary object. A vehicle for a skimpy girl to sit on, a building in the background etc etc. BTW - not saying thats a bad thing, far from it there. The whole point of poser is that allows us to create our fantasys.

The other point about "status" is that a render is someone elses art work not yours. So create stuff thats original, but not too unique or stand out.

A Gold Star for MrSparky :)

Sorry for arguing with him Kristi. I should have just ignored him way back.

Great ideas MrSparky. That's the kind of thing I'm talking about.

mrsparky posted at 6:43AM Wed, 15 February 2017 - #4297526

Also when making stuff consider what "status" your product will have in most peoples renders.

Unless you're making clothing, characters etc. Truth is 90% of the time it won't be the main focus, the focus will be a skinny white girl. your hard work will be be a secondary object. A vehicle for a skimpy girl to sit on, a building in the background etc etc. BTW - not saying thats a bad thing, far from it there. The whole point of poser is that allows us to create our fantasys.

The other point about "status" is that a render is someone elses art work not yours. So create stuff thats original, but not too unique or stand out.

Good point, I think the ability to reuse a model across scenes requires it to sit in the background and that is part of it's value. I was looking for street furniture over the weekend and found some items unusable because whilst the model was ok the vendor had only provided joke textures. I could add my own but the reason for purchasing the item was to save time.

mrsparky is on to something about a free item or free items.

Here recently, we have been suggesting to newer vendors or those that are just looking to build their brand to upload an item or two to the Freestuff area.

If you sell the base product in the store and upload an add on or two to the Freestuff area, that helps. Or, you can sell ad ons and put the base product in Freestuff

It seems to be working well for some and members are happy with it as well It's a win-win...

KristiS posted at 3:35PM Wed, 15 February 2017 - #4297583

mrsparky is on to something about a free item or free items.

Here recently, we have been suggesting to newer vendors or those that are just looking to build their brand to upload an item or two to the Freestuff area.

If you sell the base product in the store and upload an add on or two to the Freestuff area, that helps. Or, you can sell ad ons and put the base product in Freestuff

It seems to be working well for some and members are happy with it as well It's a win-win...

Doesn't work well on me though. I've been playing around with Poser for 20 years, and in all that time I've only ever bought one add-on for something I downloaded for free.

We just cannot have the arguing in the forums as it turns people off from wanting to post or comment in them which is the last thing we want.

Thank you for apologizing

Just a thought but Poser was originally made for 2D artist and at times I wish some freehanded comic creators would use Poser as a referance,And Poser does sell MS for comics.

Anyways maybe Renderosity might think about selling Digital Comics like comixology does.

or sell gallery prints like Deavaint does.

Just a thought.